1. "Victoria Lincoln's Testimony"
Posted by rays on Jan-6th-04 at 4:18 PM

Victoria Lincoln wrote what is classified as a biography of Lizzie Andrew Borden from "in-group gossip". Their class considered Lizzie guilty of the murders, but did not hold it against her, Vicky says. They were more shocked and repulsed by her rumored shoplifting.
Can that be true? No, I will explain why Vicky did not understand what she heard as a child.

I believe that group, like today, would be shocked and repulsed by a parricide from a seemingly sane young lady. But if they knew that Lizzie was just covering up for a crazy relative (Wm S Borden) that would explain the "tolerance" that Vicky mentions. Lizzie's alleged shoplifting would be another thing: a violation of the Commandment, and willful sinning. The good people of Fall River would never stand for that!

The proof of Vickly's lack of understanding is her tale of being forbidden to associate with Lizzie ("she was unkind to her parents"). That is symbolic of the real reason of the ban: Lizzie's friendship with a thespian. Some writer said another reason for Lizzie's disrepute in her town was she was swindled out of thousands by Nance O'Neil. Most of her class would have nothing to do with actors, who are in the same group as musicians, gamblers, drunkard, swindlers, stock promoters, etc.

(Message last edited Jan-6th-04  7:32 PM.)

the fact that vicki gazed into lizzie borden's eyes gives her some credibility.  in her book she talks about trying to talk to her while she was out filling her bird feeders, and says that she seemed distant.

are you saying now that fall river in general knew the "truth" of the bastard son maniac murderer?

what victoria lincoln says amounts to this:  that the residents of fall river knew her to be guilty but were embarrassed by her.

that's an interesting effort for you to try to work lincoln's theory in with browns, though.  but i don't know of one word in lincoln's narrative that invites the brown theory.

so i'm not sure what you're trying to say.

I am looking at the "Big Picture", and what is implied in V Lincoln's CLAIM that Fall River society did not think harshly of Lizzie until the shoplifting experience.
Can YOU believe this?

Oh, Ray, all roads lead to the Brown solution, at least while you have strength to type.  Victoria may have her head up her heinie when it comes to temporal lobe epilepsy and property transactions, but your version of what actually went down, and how Lizzie's supposed shielding of her illegitimate half-brother led to the good people of Fall River's attitude problem is creative, to say the least.  My reading of Lincoln's book does NOT have the townspeople "not holding" the murders against her - they shun her.  Then they are disgusted by such seemingly plebeian behavior as thievery.  I assume you also mean "testimony" ironically?

This deconstruction of Victoria Lincoln's theory is probably the cap to your career, Ray.  Why don't we just line up all the other solutions and have you work Billy Borden into them?

Oh - silly me!  You've just about already done that.  Haven't you?

(Notice how I ended with a fragmentary question?)



(Message last edited Jan-7th-04  5:21 PM.)

Isn't it interesting that Fall River society would not think badly of Lizzie for the parricide, but objected to shoplifting? IF Vicky Lincoln was correct in her claim. WHY did all the business associates of Andy believe in Lizzie's innocence? We do know that not everything gets printed in the newspapers.

WHAT is your comment on this claim? And the evidence for it?

So where is that "proof" for debunking Patricia Cornwell's book on Jack the Ripper?

I do not have anything for or against PC's book, I would just like to know the source of your claim.

(Message last edited Jan-7th-04  5:24 PM.)

***This deconstruction of Victoria Lincoln's theory is probably the cap to your career, Ray.  Why don't we just line up all the other solutions and have you work Billy Borden into them? ***

LOL.

well, you must admit -- it is original!

It is?
Are you sure?

Congratulate me!  I won a bet with myself that you'd be reduced to falling back on your tiresome, patronizing gripe about MY Cornwell gripe if I chided you on this latest odd interpretation of yours.

Lincoln DOESN'T claim Fall River was content to overlook a double murder.  The book is called A PRIVATE DISGRACE, after all, and she's not referring to the Tilden-Thurber caper.  Read the book again.  I'm pretty comfortable with MY interpretation and knowledge of the book, as I've read it at least twelve times since my first Borden days.

That probably pales next to your, presumably, weekly re-reading of Brown, along with your daily offering to the shrine you've built, but what can one do?

 

(Message last edited Jan-8th-04  3:36 PM.)

Yes, I'm sure its original. But you can check the Inquest and Trial Transcripts if you wish. Any other doubters?

Here's what the other writers said. There was sympathy for Lizzie until after the Trial ended. Then the Providence Journal wrote an editorial asking why Lizzie kept her secret now that she was no longer liable for the murders. They MISSED the point of Lizzie's secrecy!!! After this the good people shunned her in church, etc.

I guess there are as many fools then as there are now? Note Rick Geary's book compares OJ to Lizzie on the back cover (if not pasted over by your librarian). When will they ever learn?

I think that it is interesting to note the title of Ms. Lincoln's book.  The above poster who mentioned this reminded me what Ms. Lincoln's general thesis really is--Lizzie living with the intense and haunting personal humiliation based on her keen awareness that members of her own social strata suspected her all along.  Furthermore, as she builds her argument against Lizzie, Ms. Lincoln  makes the powerful observation that whatever it was that allowed Lizzie to vent her rage on Andrew and Abby that day, it is in all of us, hidden somewhere between self-control and impassioned fury.  And as Ms. Lincoln states, "God help us all."

(Message last edited Jan-11th-04  8:57 PM.)

I had translated the title to mean the disgrace of Fall River.  That it was a private anamoly of nature, violent and unspeakable to the citizens.
Are you saying it might mean our own possible private disgrace if we could commit such a crime? 
I think it's possible that each person might harbor an uncivilized killing rage inside them, but the motive probably would be primitive and spontaneous.
The ability to plan and premeditate Andrew's murder is not hidden in each of us.  At that point I think Lincoln is being poetically melodramatic.

"God bless us all" - Tiny Tim Cratchit.

Interesting expansion of what the title could mean.  Lincoln herself does say "...she was our disgrace, but a private disgrace."

I always took it as meaning a disgrace to her social class. Something that the elite families of Fall River were embarassed by.  After all she did carry the Borden name.

I can see how others would interpret it in other ways.

Yes but I left out an important point.
If a regular person can hold a killing rage inside of them, I did note it would be enacted spontaneously -- but I mean to ammend that to Not To The Extent Of 19 Blows!

So IMO that's nix to the Abby and nix to the Andrew- maybe Victoria Lincoln could?

But this avoids the question: why did her class (Andy's business associates) generally support her as INNOCENT?

How was she found "not guilty"?

Lizzie's jury was not of her class, not after she became an heiress.
And I thought we were talking about the shunning of Lizzie by Fall Riverites, the "elite", especially.

i thought it was obvious enough why the jury found her NOT GUILTY.

and i thought it was obvious enough why fall river found her GUILTY.

i know you don't like the difference, but that difference is self-explanatory.  i don't see the point in trying to erase what we already know.

furthermore, I find her guilty.

I agree that premeditation is not in all of us, only in a warped few.  However, Ms. Lincoln argues that neither of the murders were premeditated.  They were crimes of passion and rage.  Is that passion and rage in all of us?  Ms. Lincoln suggests that it is and I suspect that there is truth to that belief.  As for the Private Disgrace,  I view it to be Lizzie's own humiliation in the long years following the murders.  She knew she was viewed with suspicion and never really welcomed into the level of society she sought and admired.  And she knew why.

Would Lizzie have been less ostracized had she stayed in a simple home and devoted herself to charity?  I think so.

For all her charity work and "good deeds" prior to the murders it has never appeared she was wildly popular or had a lot of friends. Therefore she never had the "Miss Melanine" type of champion Scarlett O'Hara had...  If she had-- we would probably have an entirely different outlook on both the crime and her.


IMHO, Lizzie's main disgrace was that she failed to don sack cloth and ash and sit in the corner beating her chest and moaning following her acquittal.

I always took the meaning of the title of Lincoln's book as just that a private disgrace.  Those New Englanders were a close-mouthed lot, anything and everything that was known about Lizzie was known by them alone and they wouldn't discuss it with anyone else, it was private.  I think thats why Lincoln played up her role as an insider with all the inside gossip on Lizzie and she was here to shed light on it.  Hence the rest of the title; Lizzie Borden By Daylight.  Just my take on it. 

OK, that was good. But what about Emma? Why did she bury herself away in New Hampshire? WHAT was she feeling guilty about?
I don't believe either sister committed murder, or even knew about it. I think the secret visit from WSB went awry. If you ever promise a lot and deliver a little, you'd know how this can set people off.

I don't think that Lizzie was ostracized because she failed to appear contrite.  She was ostracized because everyone believed she had committed the crimes.  Years ago, I heard that one of Lizzie's contemporaries was asked, after the trial had concluded and Lizzie had returned home, what she thought might now happen to Lizzie.  I believe a reporter was asking the question.  The woman's response:  "I don't believe she will be invited to tea very often." 

The woman had been accused of slaughtering Andrew and Abby and everybody knew she had changed her story and that there were discrepancies in her testimony.  There had to be profound suspicion yet there was also class loyalty.  So, they rallied to her defense and saw her aquitted.  That did not mean they liked her or had to actually associate with her.  And they did not.  And as time passed, she became more reclusive and strange in their eyes and then she became a curiosity.  She certainly had her own private disgrace to carry all of her remaining years.  She would have been better off just moving out of Fall River with her inheritance and disappearing into American history. 

Lizzie knew what she did and all the good works and all the appearances won't erase an indelible public opinion.  Just ask OJ.  The "Daylight" Ms. Lincoln uses in her title is the very daylight we all shed on Lizzie whenever we discuss her guilt or innocence.  The Private Disgrace was her guilt or, at the very least, the perception of her guilt held by the peers she aspired to join.

Very well put!  Recall also that the public, as represented by the press opined that once the verdict was handed down, Lizzie would easily explain some of the mysteries of the case.

She never did, of course.

(Message last edited Jan-15th-04  12:00 PM.)

I've never undersood why Lizzie stayed in Fall River after having felt the scorn from her fellow citizens.  If I recall, it started immediately after the trial when she went to the family's old church, sat down, and everyone seated near her got up and sat someplace else. It went downhill from there with all but a few very loyal friends turning their backs on her. So she probably would have been better off in the long run had she taken her $250,000 and bailed.

Yes, that would have been better for her UNLESS remaining in Fall River was a crucial ingredient for her to prove her own innocence to HERSELF. 

Do you mean, like since she was found "Not Guilty" she was determined to live as "Not Guilty" in Fall River?
If so, she was naive as to human nature, and a bit stubborn as well.

There is a supposed qoute of her that her friend revealed in a news article after Lizbeth's death which was that she stayed because she wanted to *see the looks on people's faces when the real killer was finally found*.
Sounds apocryphal...

Do you all suppose she liked notoriety and that explains the Tilden-Thurber affair- and better to be a big fish in a *little* town, than a little fish in a big one?

(Message last edited Jan-14th-04  1:36 PM.)

I have been confused and amazed by Lizzie's choice to remain in Fall River.  I suppose it had something to do with the plight of a single woman (especially one who viewed herself as upper class and a lady of distinction) trapped by the societal rules of the time.  Bridget, evidently, split.  However, she had nothing to lose and no status or lifestyle to maintain or to justify as did Lizzie.  Lizzie saw herself as one of the elite and with her money and relative comfort and security, she could live among them while, at the same time, morph into a neighbourhood curiosity.

On the other hand, maybe Lizzie was just afraid to make the break, to leave the only place she ever knew.  People will indefinitely tolerate miserable conditions as long as their misery outweighs their fear of change.  That could be Lizzie's situation.

It is also possible that Lizzie just never quite got it, that she did not fully recognize the meaning of an entire pew full of people relocating when she sat down.  On the other hand, maybe it was an "in your face" thing on Lizzie's part.  Maybe she fully understood that she was scorned by Fall River society yet decided to walk among them and even live among them as an act of defiance.

Whatever the reason, it had to have been a lonely existence for her.  Guilty or innocent, Lizzie Borden must have felt terribly alone at times and loneliness is a painful way to exist.

(Message last edited Jan-14th-04  8:18 PM.)

That was a good post Jim.  Fear of change I think is true for Lizzie,
where would she go?  Fall River DID protect her, we have seen that
in frustration trying to glean something, anything about Lizzie.  Fall
River kept their mouth shut and was loyal to her.  Out of respect for
her father, handed down through the generations.  Those New Englanders
are stubborn and loyal to their "own" and Lizzie was a pure-bred!
It must have taken a lot of guts and something "big" for Emma to
leave Fall River.   

I do think a great deal of the reason for Lizzie remaining in FR was her deep rooted belief that once she had "the house" and "the money" she would be immediately accepted within the social circles she craved so badly.  She didn't appear to have big aspirations apart from "movin' on up".  I would be suprised to know it truly crossed her mind that she would be ostracized.  Once she found out differently she began doing more traveling-- by this time it may well have been stubborness that kept her in FR. 

I don't think Emma left FR as much as she left Lizzie.  Moving out of town was just the natural progression for her. 

Audrey, why do you think it took Emma so long to leave Lizzie?  I have also wondered what it was that so upset Emma that she finally  departed on miserable terms with Lizzie.  What WAS going on in that house?

A general question:  If Lizzie did remain in Fall River just to proclaim her innocence and to announce her legitimacy as a member of the elite, would she have taken to the air waves (as have recently accused celebrities) in order to announce her version of events and appear as an innocent soul if that had been available to her in her time?  Lizze with Ed Bradley on 60 Minutes; I would love to see that.

(Message last edited Jan-15th-04  12:14 PM.)

I think Emma and Lizzie's estrangement was fueled by many factors.

Perhaps it was Lizzie's "life style"-- or merely the company she was keeping.  (I am not convinced Lizzie ever had a lesbian affair-- she very well may have begun hanging out with people of "questionable repute", but this might have been because people who are "ostracized" by society generally flock to one another for acceptance and non judgment.  Look at any group-- the "misfits" are often together even when the reasons they "do not fit" are different)

Likewise-- from all reports Emma was was more maternal towards Lizzie than sisterly.  Anyone with children knows that it would take a lot to sever ties with a child-- despite their age or actions.  I do not think Emma would have abandoned Lizzie unless she had been totally fed up.  Granted the societal ideas towards homosexuality has come along somewhat since E&L's times-- I do not think this alone would cause Emma to sprint from Maplecroft as if the hounds of hell were at her heels.... 

It had to have been years of pent up anger, frustration and conflict. 

I have also never believed Emma was as unassuming as she is portrayed.   Still waters............

think about her sun sign.  isn't maplecroft the shell she crawls into?  and she never really comes out.  self-imprisonment, really.  i thought about this when i read that article from you about the interview with emma --- and i got a clear picture of the place -- with the doors and windows locked up, covered, etc.  but this behavior of hers is truly an expression of the sign -- which would always rather stay home and hide, as opposed to "running away." 

but why stay and endure the pain of this reputation?  again, look at the sign.   answer:  fear, fear of breaking with home/roots.  this sort of attachment has an important meaning to the sign that is hard to explain.  in fact, "attachment"  is another way of explaining it--lizzie was too attached to fall river to leave it--whether this was pleasant or not, this is not quite the reason for it, it's something more nebulous.

but i will say i think her reason does have to do with what has been talked about as her peculiar nature -- her "queerness" as emma supposedly said.  i don't think her reason was a "concrete" type reason.

I think it's possible Lizzie joined the Fruit and Flower Mission and the Women's Board of the Hospital etc. to get her name on rosters of charitable work.
I think she was in competition with Andrew in the only way, she as his daughter, could.  Get her name out there.  Volunteer for things.
She gets her trip to Europe, she gets the larger room, she gets her own real estate property, and still she is treated like the youngest girl in the family. 

Emma has invested in big ways in Lizzie.  Lizzie eventually is Emma's ticket out of Second Street and out of domination of Andrew and out of eyesight of her despised step-mother.

Lizzie inherits money, is found "Not Guilty", moves to The Hill and stays in town because her name is Borden and that name is naught in Paris. That name does adorn a huge business building, and Now She is That Borden- the Borden whose father built that building.  She will never find that anywhere else.
Emma tried to sell her 1/2 of the Borden Building and succeeded but Lizzie hung on and that Building, i think represented who she thought she was in Fall River.

I don't think she was so alone and lonely.  But, if at times she was, she may have been moody by nature.  That's another aspect of the Cancer personality.

I agree with all of this about Lizzie and also Emma (Audrey's still waters...?)  Cancer, the crab, moves sideways to their goal, never
straight at it. If you watch a crab (lots of them here in the
Barneget Bay) they will see some food but never go right straight for
it, they move from side to side, all around it, take their time.
("i never do things in a hurry")   Lizzie's testimony sure shows her
as a true crab, as does the way she lived her life. She never seemed
to really go for it, she circled around the church business, the
hospital stuff, the Nance O'Neill crowd, never really captured anything. (unless....she did do the deed...and in that case she did
capture the money)

Yes I was thinking in terms of ambition And Lizzie's ambition seemed to be to be equal to Andrew-
Own stocks, real estate, be head of household, be a "Borden" in Fall River.
And she got all that from him- whether she killed or not.

you bring up another important aspect of cancer.  they will appear to be going sideways at something, avoiding it, stalling -- finally at some point a decision is made and they go for it aggressively.  they don't want too much attention, but they are looking for the right moment to go for it--and they've got it when no one is looking.  perhaps sneaky but based on self-protectiveness.

here's another cancer word:  security.  this is something a cancer gets by birth, they can't let go of it.

well, you should be able to shed some light on this! 

i also thought of what you mentioned about her father's property there in the town.  couldn't just leave that.

my main point is that her reasons are more nebulous than many people might think -- more to do with her nature than some sort of benefit -- and not just a stubborn claim to innocence but a real deep-seated need to be "where she belonged."

with her money, she could have gone anywhere - but don't you think she had a deeply personal need to stay?

at heart, lizzie was a homebody.  i understand this, because i am also a homebody.  but i've traveled within the country enough to know of some places i'd like to live - and there be a homebody.  but apart from lizzie's europe trip, where did she travel?  she had probably never been anywhere she developed familial feelings for.  now i'm sure i could settle in south forida or the southwest - possibly NYC, for that matter -- but thinking about this choice of hers, we prob. lose sight of the fact that people in general then had more provincial attitudes.

you're talking about the social-climbing aspect of lizzie.  everything she did points to that.  the big fish in the little pond.   i suppose for the time and place she lived in -- that is all pretty ambitious, esp. for a 32-yr-old spinster dependent on her parents.  possibly her horrible reputation there was not something as difficult for her to deal with as we might imagine?  she obviously endured it successfully.  the sphinx had more than adequate strength?
she had something emma did not have -- poor emma seems almost adrift in comparison.

Lizzie and Emma lived for years in a home where they deeply hated their stepmother....

Obviously they were not accustomed to a warm, emotionally safe environment.  You do not miss what you do not have...



(Message last edited Jan-15th-04  11:32 PM.)

Lizzie did travel as much as she seemed to want.  We once made quite an exensive list.
Her vocation after the murders was to acquire property which she did until she died.  Like  Andrew.
However, we get the sense she resented Andrew's investments, yet se used his money and did the same thing.  She and Emma (to a lesser degree) bought and sold a lot of property.  She was *buying up Fall River*, so to speak.  I doubt she would want to buy any other city.

Audrey, that was a good observation.  The Borden home must have been a place that was cold enough to freeze beer.  I cannot imagine how emotionally crippled Lizzie might have been, but I suspect Emma was no emotional box of chocolates either.   They lived in a most dysfunctional family and were still living there deep into adulthood.  Regardless of the societal values and restrictions of the time, that was not a healthy situation for anybody in that house.  That place was a psychological time bomb.

I also agree that Lizze was a "Borden" and that meant a great deal to her. It probably even gave her a sense of security. However, while her father's name was on a building and that may have provided Lizzie with a sense of nobility, so to speak, (at least in her mind) I believe others would have seen her as "that Borden" in another sense--she killed the father who owned that building.  Of course, this is only speculation but I have often thought of Lizzie as a most unhappy person.  Even if she was 100% innocent, many saw her as guilty and that, alone, would create great emotional stress on top of all of the coldness and difficulty of her developmental years.  In any event, the Bordens were one gene pool in which few would want to take a dip.

I am new here.. and perhaps many of you have already visited this link... I never have.  Nor have I seen any reference to it, or any of it's reportings in the forum.

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/NY-OLD-NEWS/2002-05/1020689755

i've seen it.  i think it was susan who posted it not too long ago. 

i was struck by the melodramatic style of the time.  ironically, the way lizzie was described falling made me think of poor abby.

that's an interesting point i had not thought of.  you mean that lizzie was so accustomed to hostility anyway, that she could deal with this more easily than most?

I think she thrived on it.  It was all she knew.

Some people (and we all know at least one) are never happy unless they are fighting with someone or have some other drama unfolding in their lives.

I think Emma started in on Lizzie when she was young and kept at her until they seperated.  Lizzie has been described as manipulative-- she learned at the knees of a master....

But don't crab bodies & legs prevent them from ever going forward?
They are carrion eaters mostly, not attackers.

I have some relatives who like crabbing. But I also heard of one guy who never ate crabs. He worked at a shipping dock, and would often see floaters with dozens of crabs on them. The word cancer was derived from the appearance of cut-off patches of skin. It looked like the crabs were eating you.

You are a good writer Jim, made me laugh "that is one gene pool
I wouldn't want to take a dip"!  And the house "cold enough to freeze
beer" hit home today because I bought the kids at work a 6-pack to
celebrate one of our workers turning 21. When I sent the boys
out to my car to get it at 5 PM of course it was frozen. (duh it is
5 degrees here)  They drank it anyway like a slurpie. 
  Yes I sure agree with all about the dysfunction in that house.  Just the fact that there were 4 grown women living in one small house is enough, I can't imagine the tension everyday, it must have been
building for a long time.  One has to feel sorry for Andrew!   

thanks for that link Audrey, I hadn't seen it, Loved it, what
great writing huh "she fell quicker than an ox in the stock yards
of Chicago"  priceless. Thanks.

To njwolfe:  Thank you for the kind words!  Your observation made me think.  I have never stopped to consider how Andrew must have felt until I read your post.  He is not a person who evokes much empathy.  However, he was rather trapped and even in a male dominated society, he was pitifully outnumbered in that house.

PS:  A beer slurpy?  You may be on to something big. 

Beer Slurpee, Interesting concept, NJ. Maybe 7-Eleven would be interested.

Sorry, I just couldn't pass that one up. 

Audrey, thanks for that link. I hadn't seen that item either.

The house on 92 Second St did have central heating at that time, and even a stove in the barn. According to what I've read. When was this heating added?

"Cold" as in even on a hot summer day, the emotions in that house
were cold, "cold enough to freeze beer" as Jim says.  Of course they
had heat, even Andrew wouldn't live without heat. 
I doubt they had beer slurpies though!

Never heard of a stove in the barn.  From where does that info come?

I too think do think I recall reading that somewhere...

Sounds dangerous.
It could be Kent, Radin or Brown, if Ray recalls.  Do you know if it is in one of those books?

At the end of Book One in Lincoln (page 99 in the paperback) there is this mention of the barn:

"There was running water in the barn and a vise and some heavy hammers; there was a fire in the coal stove. A hatchet-head can be broken from its handle and the handle burned."

I think that this may be the misleading entry and the stove mentioned is the one in the kitchen. The comment is to what was available to destroy the hatchet handle.

BTW, I have never been able to find anyone else mentioning the vise or heavy hammers in the barn. I would assume at least the hammers would have been of special interest to the police.

(Message last edited Jan-19th-04  3:08 PM.)

Wow thanks Harry!
I love it when stuff that 'someone read somewhere' is tracked down to a source!  That was quick!

I didn't recall a stove mentioned in the testimonies, and I know you had dug out all that info for me before, as to what was in the Bahn.

Harry-- you really do seem to have such enchanting manners and a gallant way about you.....

Vive Le Harry!

Why thank you for the kind words Audrey. Just old fashioned I guess.

One of the many books that I read. They all sort of run together. But I believe that it was Masterton's book about the heat stove in the barn.

But the stove should not be in use in August, or even winter w/o the horses. I remember from 50 yrs ago my Grandpa's farm in upstate NY. No stove in barn, the cattle gave off enough heat when fed.

There is also the grave danger of a fire in a barn!

Actually, every mention I recall is not of a stove, but a fireplace--which sounds even scarier in a building full of hay.  Nonetheless, it WAS THERE, on the second floor of the barn, no less!  Rebello shows it in the 3D floorplan, #30, p. 48.  At least it is on the side opposite the hay storage area. Maybe Lizzie was actually up in the barn innocently contemplating arson.
(I'm catching up after a few weeks' absence. Nice to read a lot of the recent postings.)
--Lyddie

I'm told that in Europe it was very common for a family to keep their cattle in the basement, and live above them. To prevent thievery?
Also, that keeping a cow in the shanty (!) served as a source of heat.

There is mention of an "old fashioned fireplace" in the barn, I believe in Victoria Lincoln's book.

As per cattle in the basement.... True.  The basement in my home has stalls for horses from when they used them for transportation-- The house is on the Ile St Louis, once known as the Island of the cows.  Many people have such stables in their basements, even in the city and servants would milk the cows for milk.  They also had chickens for eggs and cooking in the basements. 

The house was built in 1676.  You can drive a car down into the basement and the stalls are now used as garage stalls. 

This might interest some of you:

During the heat wave in Paris this past summer, trees collapsed in the courtyard from the intense heat.  One of them broke a colored glass window which my mother found in the cellar.  It had been removed, she believes during WWI and she had it restored and replaced in the entry.   The tree crashed through it, demolishing it.  Also-- my parents were out of town during the hot summer heat wave (Most Parisians leave town in August) and the people they have help them in the home moved mattresses down into the wine cellar and slept dormitory style so that they could enjoy the cool air!  The house I grew up in has neither central heat or AC of any kind.  Generally, neither is really needed.  We have fire places in most of the common rooms, including the bedrooms and we always used an
"electric fire" while in the bathroom or WC.  I remember waking up in the morning to a nice, warm fire (which had been started for me) and dressing in cozy comfort-- and then RUNNING as fast as I could through the cold corridors to the dining room for breakfast.  When I moved to the USA I suffered from sinus pain when in homes with central heat (I got used to it) but still, to this day-- prefer to sleep, bundled in Eiderdown and a duvet (Just a flat sheet and a cotton duvet cover over the Eiderdown) in an icy cold room!   

That is very interesting and maybe close to a richer *Borden experience* in the 1870's!

I believe the thing in the Borden barn was an old mantlepiece, or surround, not a working fireplace.  Harry would know.  He knows what's in the bahn.

I saw a program on ancient Israel and they debunked the open stable scene for a Christ born.  They showed the old homes which were situated above the barn where the animals stayed, goats and sheep mainly, I think.
So the traveling family would be invited in and if there were no beds they could be warm and accomodated under the house in the stable.  That would be where the Christmas babe was born.

That made me think of a Christmas display I saw on the front lawn of house out here; it was those light-up manger figures, the baby Jesus, Mary, Joseph, etc.  Except there was no manger and they were set up on a picnic table with fake snow, it made me just scream with laughter every time I saw it!  I know Christ was supposed to be born in a stable, but, there was never any mention of a picnic table! 

Those drawings on page 48 of Rebello are fun to browse.  The item in the barn loft, #30, labelled "Old fireplace" is something I never noticed before.  Good eyes Lydia.

Since there is no chimney and it is snug in the corner it could be just an old mantlepiece that Andrew was saving. It was in the NW corner and all the hay was up against the length of the north wall.  Lizzie, if she had been up there looking out the window, would have been standing right next to it.

I think you and Kat are right, Harry:  it does say OLD fireplace, which seemed decidedly odd to me.  Maybe it was removed when they installed steam heat, and Andrew and Abby were planning a bahn and yahd sale.  I still like the absurd picture of fireplace next to the hayloft, though.  Maybe that could account for the extreme heat the police noted (before the temp had climbed above the 70's). 

Maybe the Wise Men really brought Goulden's Mustard, franks, and muskmelon, Susan.    (I'm trying to put in a wink smiley here; we'll see if it works.)  Boo-yah!  I'll learn to be computer savvy yet.

(Message last edited Jan-29th-04  11:21 PM.)

Yeah, all that hay would have made a nice fire.

I would think I would have the fireplace down by the privy so as to at least warm the seat on those cold winter mornings.  Brrrrr.

That same drawing also shows a railing on the stairs leading to the loft. The photo on page 43 showing the bahn being dismantled in 1929 has a good shot of those narrow stairs. No railing shown but it may have already been removed.

I've got it, Harry:  The privy is where they put the elusive stove!  Brrrrrr is right. It's so cold up here right now, the indoor toilet seats are cold.  Maybe they chopped up the railing to kindle the privy stove.







(Message last edited Jan-30th-04  12:02 AM.)

  I wish I had a digital camera so I could have taken a picture of it, the thought still makes me giggle.


From what I've seen, since the Borden house was set up as two identical apartments, there should have been a fireplace in the parlor to correspond with the one in the guest room up above it, it had been taken out.  Also, there should have been a fireplace in Lizzie's room to correspond with the one down in the sitting room.  So, that old mantel in the bahn could be from the parlor or Lizzie's room. 

Good thinking, Susan!  I wonder what they did with the other removed surround.  Maybe they installed it at Swansea for chilly evenings?

Lyddie

Lyddie, I use your patent medicines ALL the time!

Didn't the New Testament say they were put into a cave that was used as a stable? (I'm not a frequent reader.)

They described the *Inn* as being built the same way.
Built above a stable.
There must be a way to get your donkey in there tho- a big door to the outside?
You'd not bring him thru the house and down the stairs.
I think some of these dwellings were built partially into rock.

Luke says stable, but it would have probably been built into rock.

--Lyddie

In the house I grew up in (yawn sorry) there was a fireplace in
living room that backed to one in dining room; then directly above upstairs a fireplace in guest room (my folks room) that backed to the one in Emma's room (my room).  It makes sense to have the fireplaces like that, one chimney.  I don't see a chimney coming out of the Borden barn, I doubt they had a stove in there.  I'm thinking of all the stove pipes and different set ups I've had over the years but I don't think in 1892 all that was available?   (no Home Depot!)  

If you visit the Holy Land, and Bethlehem--they show you a cave where they say Jesus was born.

Thank you, Bob! Yes, my elixirs are not only for feminine complaints but may be soothing to jangled nerves, etc. in men, as well.  And it contains only 20% alcohol (for preservative purposes only)!

(Message last edited Jan-30th-04  9:30 PM.)

Do they still sell stuff under that label?

I think they ended it in the sixties, Kat, but I can check it out.  There is a huge site devoted to Lydia.  I also noticed an old building with her name down in Salem, MA, but didn't get the chance to check it out.

According to this site you can still get Lydia Pinkham's medicines.

http://www.medichest.com/lydiapinkham.html



Theres a very interesting site about Lydia here:http://www.glswrk-auction.com/025.htm

There is even a song about Lydia:

BALLAD OF LYDIA PINKHAM

Let us sing (let us sing) of Lydia Pinkham
The benefactress of the human race.
She invented a vegetable compound,
And now all papers print her face,

O, Mrs. Brown could do no housework,
O, Mrs. Brown could do no housework,
She took three bottles of Lydia's conpound,
And now there's nothing she will shirk,
she will shirk,

Mrs. Jones she had no children,
And she loved them very dear.
So she took three bottles of Pinkham's
Now she has twins every year.

Lottie Smyth ne'er had a lover,
Blotchy pimples caused her plight;
But she took nine bottles of Pinkham's--
Sweethearts swarm about her each night.

Oh Mrs. Murphy (Oh Mrs. Murphy)
Was perturbed because she couldn't seem to pee
Till she took some of Lydia's compound
And now they run a pipeline to the sea!

And Peter Whelan (Peter Whelan)
He was sad because he only had one nut
Till he took some of Lydia's compound
And now they grow in clusters 'round his butt.

That was too good Susan, priceless!
My old papers show ads:
(with that ugly picture) "a woman best understands a woman's ills.
The normal life, well-being, and happiness of mankind, depend upon
the physical health and perfection of woman."  

Hi, Susan.  You beat me to the punch!  I'm glad I read your posting before typing in the lengthy frat boy ballad.  Besides, you were able to get my lovely likeness in, for which I thank you (my scanner is screwed up).

If anyone wants to order my wonderful vegetable compound, it's available at <medichest.com>.  The ingredients include licorice, chamomile, pleurisy root, Jamaica dogwood, black cohosh, life plant, fenureek seed, dandelion, and 18 to 20% alcohol. I'm not sure if they've altered the formula. (Although I do know they have added vitamins and minerals.) Black cohosh, of course, is a popular hormonal substitute for menopausal women.  For that matter, so is the alcohol sometimes.  At least, the worst the compound did was give little old ladies a legitimate buzz.  During the civil war, Princess Song Dove's remedy became a popular painkiller--contents: "tincture of whiskey, laudanum, arsenic, mercury, and molasses." Lydia may have saved many lives too, for her cramp remedy lowered the rate of ovarian surgery, which had a 40% death rate!

Worst, perhaps, were remedies for infants and children:
Mrs. Winslow's Soothing Syrup (for colic and teething) had a high morphine content, and Ayers Cherry Pectoral (for throat and lungs) contained heroin!  I have read that many babies were killed by the dregs of some of these soothing remedies, because the laudanum or other drugs or poisons would settle to the bottom into a single fatal dose.

I checked Lydia's Salem connection:  she was born there, and the building I saw was the Lydia Pinkham Memorial Clinic.  Her factory was in Lynn, as is her grave.  Interestingly, the company pretended she was still alive 20 years after her death.

Here's one more 1892 coincidence: in 1892, after many muckraker exposes, "Ladies Home Journal" discontinued all patent medicine ads.

--Lyddie

(Message last edited Jan-31st-04  6:08 PM.)

WOW Susan & nj and lydia!  Thanks a bunch!
I think that is really wonderful info.

I was a bit shocked at that poem- meaning it would shock at the turn of the last century?  Was it more modern?

I think I saw lydia pinkham products at Walgreen's a bit ago but forgot to check lately.

It IS really Victorian, but it was a drinking song strictly for the fellas.  One site on drinking songs will even play a one-finger piano midi file of the tune.  I was going to link it, but it had an impossibly long address, which I didn't trust myself to duplicate.  You can get it by searching The Ballad of Lydia Pinkham.  You won't get many hits and should be able to find the musical link pretty easily.  I forgot to give the two most famous slogans: "a baby in every bottle," for women prone to miscarriages, and "pink pills for pale people" for everybody else!

--Lyddie

Lyddie, I loved learning all about Lydia Pinkham, couldn't wait to post my findings, I hope I didn't step on your toes doing so.  I think its incredible that the products have withstood the test of time and are still available to us today!


Yes, Kat, it is rather bawdy, isn't it?  If anyone is offended by it, I will edit or delete it entirely.  Personally I found it amusing, especially for the sake that it was Victorian minds that came up with that ballad. 

I'm not offended, I thought the Victorian's might be tho- apparently they were not?  I figured in a society where one could not refer to one's leg other than *limb*, they would never countenance that song!
Just goes to show that what was *hidden* in the daytime, was allowed out at night!

Good, I'm glad.  What I find funny may be downright disturbing to others.  How true about the Victorians and what was hidden!  I've seen picture postcards, French I believe, from the era that depicted things that would be at home in today's pornography market.  I was rather shocked as we think of the Victorians as straitlaced and Puritanical, but, I guess it wasn't so for all of them.  It was amazing also because some of these pics came about during the infancy of photography, who knew? 

You should know that "pornography" was around almost since the beginning. It was said to illustrations of Classical Legends (the gods and goddesses of Ancient Greece & Rome).
The "Victorian Age" was perhaps more famous for hypocrisy than modern times.
Ever read the book "Glass Houses" or "Scorpion Tongues"? There are also books on Washington scandals (more sedate than New York or Chicago)? There is nothing new under the sun.