Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden Topic Name: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?  

1. "Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by ross on Apr-30th-03 at 9:11 PM

Do we have any real info on this?  I know that Lizzie and Emma were upset that their father gave Abby's sister some money for the house.  But do we know anything else?  I would imagine that Lizzie's hatred of Abby went way back to when Lizzie was a child.  Were there ever any accounts by family members, neighbors, or anyone else as to what kind of a stepmother Abby was to Lizzie?  I haven't come across anything about this in any of the Lizzie books that I've read so far.


2. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by kimberly on Apr-30th-03 at 9:40 PM
In response to Message #1.

I've always assumed that it was Emma's doing -- that she was
possessive of Lizzie & was old enough to have really known their
mother & was resentful of having a stepmother. She was a young
teenager when Andrew married Abby & kids that age are kind of
hard to reach & win over by anyone much less a step-parent.
Maybe she hated to share Lizzie (and Dad?) with anyone because
she felt alone after her mothers death? 


3. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Kat on Apr-30th-03 at 11:01 PM
In response to Message #1.

It's a good question, and a good way to pull these things together...though it turns out the Inquest was rife with these statements about how Lizzie portrayed Abby to them.

There is also the "Sanity Survey", Knowlton Papers, which describes, in part, Lizzie's personality, but do not actually state Lizzie or Emma's feelings toward Abby.

I also found Mrs. Whitehead, Abby's sister, saying how close-mouthed Abby was about her own affairs.  Mr. Case and his wife also knew Abby and said she didn't chat about her homelife.  Also Hiram (Inq., 134) stated that the stepmother never mentioned her relationship with the girls, in his presence.

There may be more?
Check Witness Statements?
--Sorry it's so long.  I did edit but used my judgment.
Also, Andrew didn't give Mrs. Whitehead some money for the house, by looking at Mrs. Whiteheads testimony of that transaction.

--I don't think this really answers *WHY*, though...as to what lead to the acrimony, if such there was.  (Hiram had been quoted as saying this had been going on 10 years.  That's longer than the property disagreement)

Inquest
Augusta Tripp
142
Q.  Were you a school mate of either of the daughters?
A.  With Miss Lizzie.
........
Q.  Did you ever hear either Miss Emma or Miss Lizzie say anything about their step mother?
A.  I have heard them speak of her of course.
Q.  And about their feeling towards her?
A.  I think I have heard them say but very little.
Q.  Which one have you heard talk about it?
A.  I think Miss Lizzie.
Q.  When was it you heard her talk about it?
A.  I could not tell you when.
.........
Q.  Had you any opportunity of observing what the relations were between the daughters and the mother, or between Miss Lizzie and the mother?
A.  Whenever I saw them together, they had very little to say to each other, seemed to have very little to say to each other. Everything went along quietly. They did not seem to make very much conversation with each other.
.......
....Q.  What can you tell us about the relations between Lizzie and her mother, so far as you observed it, and heard it form Lizzie?
A.  All I can tell you is that I dont think they were agreeable to each other.
Q.  What made you think so?
A.  I have seen them together very little. What should make me think so, would be--- if I were there, why, they did not sit down, perhaps, and talk with each other as a mother and daughter might. They were very quiet.
.......
...Q.  They associated together so little you noticed the fact they did not associate together?
A.  I noticed it; not that they kept away from each other, not that at all, but that they did not enter into conversation, perhaps, with each other, perhaps.
Q.  Was that so with Lizzie as well as Emma, or with one daughter more than the other?
A.  I think Lizzie talked with her mother more than Emma.
Q.  Emma had less to say to her?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  What else did you notice that led you to think that Lizzie and the mother did not get along well together, or were not agreeable to each other, as you expressed it?
.......
....A.  Their manner to each other was not that of those persons that are agreeable to each other, or it did not seem to be.
Q.  When was it that you have seen them together?
A.  I could not tell you surely; it is as much as five years since I have seen Mrs. Borden at all.
Q.  So all this was based on what was quite a while ago?
A.  O, yes sir.
Q.  The officer reports that you told him that Lizzie told  you at some time, that she thought her step mother was deceitful, one thing to her face and another behind her back.
A.  Did he say I said Lizzie told me so?
Q.  Yes.
A.  I did not think I told him so. It seemed to me so; it seemed to me that she did not like one way appearing to her face, you know deceitful, she could not bear deceitfulness, and she could not bear one thing to her face, and find out another thing to her back; she could not bear deceitfulness.
Q.  Was that what Lizzie told you?
A.  I could not say she told me that, that was the idea I got from what--- well, I dont know as I could say from being there, or from being with Lizzie perhaps, for I have been there very little.
Q.  You also told the officer that Lizzie told you that her step mother claimed not to have any influence with the father, but Lizzie thought she did have an influence with him.
A.  Yes, I think Lizzie thought she did.
Q.  Did Lizzie tell you that her step mother claimed not to have any influence with him?
A.  I dont remember any such talk.
Q.  With relation to giving some property to the step mother?
A.  Lizzie, from what I have heard her say, but I could not tell you the words, Lizzie said, but I gathered from what I heard her say, it was a long time before I heard her say it, that she thought her mother must have had an influence over her father, or he would not have made a present to her half sister. It was a long time ago, not expecting this to come up, I could not swear to one word Lizzie said.
Q.  This was all prior to the last visit, nothing was said about this at the last visit?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Did Lizzie say to you she did not know that either Emma or she would get anything in the event of her father’s death?
A.  I did not hear her say so.
Q.  Who told you she said so?
A.  I think my invalid sister told me so.
Q.  What is her name?
A.  Miss Carrie M. Poole, she is very feeble, she lives on Madison street New Bedford, she is very feeble indeed.
Q.  You never heard Lizzie say that?
A.  No Sir, I never heard Lizzie say that.
Q.  The officer says you said explicitly, Mrs. Tripp, that Lizzie told you that she thought her step mother was deceitful, one thing to her face, and another thing behind her back, not in so many words, but that was the substance of what she said.
A.  I dont remember of her saying that.
Q.  Do you remember of telling that to the officer?
A.  I remember very well talking to him that I thought Lizzie thought her mother was deceitful, one thing to her face, and another to her back. I could not say Lizzie told me that, I cant say so. I was taken very much by surprise at seeing Officer Medley come in, and I tried to tell; but those things were years back, and thinking they never would come up, I cant recollect word for word things that occurred years ago. I cant say that Lizzie told me she thought so; but it would be from little things I might have heard her say that would cause me to think she could not bear deceitfulness, being such an honorable person as she was, s[q]uare person.
Q.  Did she appear to be fond of her step mother in her talk with you?
A.  No, I dont think she was fond of her.
Q.  Did she appear to be unfriendly towards her?
A.  No Sir.
______________

Inquest
Hannah Gifford
158+
Q.  Did you ever hear either Miss Emma or Miss Lizzie say anything about their mother?
A.  I never heard Emma, but I have heard Lizzie.
Q.  What have you heard Lizzie say?
A.  Well, she called her mother "a mean old thing."
Q.  When was that?
A.  That was this Spring when I was doing the last work 'or them.
Q.  How came she to say that?
A.  It was some remark I made about her mother's garment, what would be becoming for her. You know Mrs. Borden was very fleshy; I spoke to her of what I thought would be becoming to Mrs. Borden. She says "well she is a mean old thing". I says "O, you dont say that Lizzie?" She says "yes, and we dont have anything to do with her, only what we are obliged to", she says.
Q.  She said that?
A.  She said that, yes.
Q.  Anything more?
A.  Well, she says "we stay up stairs most of the time; we stay in our room most of the time." I says "you do, dont you go to your meals?" "Yes, we go to our meals, but we dont always eat with the family, with them; sometimes we wait until they are through", she says.
Q.  Did she tell you why?
A.  No. That is all she said. I did not say anything more. I was awfully surprised to hear her.
Q.  You never heard Mrs. Borden say anything, I suppose?
A.  No, I never heard any of them say anything against each other.
Q.  Excepting that?
A.  That is the only time I ever heard Lizzie either, and I was very much surprised.
Q.  Did she seem to be joking about it, or speaking with some feeling?
A.  No, she seemed to have a little feeling about it; that was all. There was no joking about it at all.
....
[Hannah Gifford is related to Lizzie in that she had a "common great grandfather" with Andrew-- per Hoffman]

____________

Inquest
Hiram Harrington
134+
Q.  Do you know what the relations were between the daughters and the mother?
A.  I did not go into the house; all I can tell is hear say, that is from them. The step mother never mentioned it in my presence.
Q.  Did Lizzie?
A.  Lizzie has, yes.
Q.  What has Lizzie said about it?
A.  I dont know as I could put anything together now to tell you, any more than to tell you there was some difficulty some way. She thought

135 (42)


she equivocated. I dont know as I could put enough of it together now, I can just give you an idea. I cant remember words that were passed at the time, any more than just this much, that she thought she equivocated.
Q.  About what, did she say?
A.  In regard to something about Bertie, that is, Mrs. Whitehead, a half sister of Mrs. Borden. I think it was something about helping her, or that her father had bought the property. The general construction I have got of what she said, and from what little I learned, was that he had bought the property and give it to his wife; and of course that meant giving it to her half sister.
Q.  Did Lizzie speak about it to you more than once?
A.  Sometimes it has been mentioned in a joking way, about the difficulties. I dont know as I could put enough together to say really what has passed.
Q.  How long ago was the last time she said anything about it?
A.  I think last Winter sometime. I have not seen her at the house for, I might say all Summer, and I have inquired of my wife how it was that Lizzie had not been down. Emma has always come. And the reply I would get from her was that Lizzie was into everything, that is, the works of the church, and her time was occupied; that is what I would get from her.
Q.  When she spoke about it last Winter, what did she say about it?
A.  I dont know as I could tell any more than to speak kind of sneeringly of Mrs. Borden. She always called her Mrs. Borden or Mrs. B. I dont know as I could remember anything to put together to make any sense.
Q.  Did she speak in an unfriendly way of her?
A.  Unfriendly, yes.
Q.  You never heard Mrs. Borden say anything about it at all?
A.  Never mention it. I have heard my wife say that Abby never mentioned it.
Q.  But it was understood there was trouble in the family?
A.  O, yes there has been I guess. For several years, I guess, of his early marriage with her, everything was very, very pleasant, uncommonly so for a step mother.
Q.  This trouble is of recent years?
A.  Quite a number of years, I should think. They were rather reticent about telling these affairs, although sometimes it would [crop] out.
_______________

Trial
Mr. Moody Arguing To Allow Anna Borden's Testimony
1173
Page 1173 / i195

MR. MOODY. The evidence which we offer is substantially this, your Honors: that upon the return voyage, after this witness and the prisoner had spent the summer in various parts of Europe in travel, there was this conversation which I am about to state, which was several times repeated: it was in substance that she (the prisoner), regretted the necessity of returning home after she had such a happy summer, because the home that she was about to return to was such an unhappy home. This conversation, as I say, was repeated several times, and we submit that, owing to the nature of the statement that was there made, it would be competent. I should agree that if at that time there had been a mere passing word of resentment, if there had been any characterization of Mr. and Mrs. Borden such as might come from a passing feeling of resentment, that the distance of time of the conversation would be such as in your Honors' discretion would well warrant if not compel the exclusion of the testimony offered. But there is no language than can be stronger than the language used to express a permanent condition of things in that household. The word home means a great deal in everybody's mind and everybody's mouth, and I submit that where a person states that he has an unhappy home, states it deliberately. states it more than once, it expresses such a continued and existing state of feeling that it is competent even although it occurred two years before the homicide into which we are inquiring.  This is a case not of the expression of feeling towards persons who are brought casually together, but it is the expression of a feeling or of a state of feeling

Page 1174 / i196

by one member of a family in respect to the whole family of which she has been a member ever since, almost, her birth, and continuously a member, because, according to this testimony, there was no absence except this absence in Europe: and of course after she returned home she continued always to live in the family up to the time of this homicide. It is to be taken into account, also, with what we know of the feelings of people who are about to return home, persons who have been absent from home, who have been absent, especially from the country, from their own country,---unless their feeling about the home is firmly hostile and firmly fixed as a hostile feeling, we would hardly expect such a statement as we offer to show was made in this case. I think I have made the ground upon which we offer this clear to your Honors. Perhaps I have not expressed it so fully or so well as I might do, but I think your Honors understand precisely what I mean.

_________



(Message last edited Apr-30th-03  11:18 PM.)


4. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Carol on May-1st-03 at 2:49 PM
In response to Message #1.

There doesn't seem to be any real proof that Lizzie HATED Abby. It didn't come out at trial, the place where it was most important for the prosecution to prove this. Some information below on "Hatred."

Robinson, Closing Argument, pg. 1684/i706
"...Now, they say that Mrs. Gifford told us this. It was told on the stand. Let us have it for all it is worth. She is the cloak maker, you remember. I do not discredit her. "Don't say mother to me. She is a mean good-for-nothing thing" I said, "Oh, Lizzie, you don't mean that?" And she said, "Yes, I do. I don't have much to do with her. I stay in m room most of the time." And I said, "You come down to your meals don't you?" And she said, "Yes, but we don't eat with them if we can help it." That is the whole of it. That was a year ago last March. Now, my learned friend who opened the case said that Mrs. Gifford would say that she hated her, so my friend, the District Attorney, who makes the argument, will take out that, will admit she did not say any such thing.  You heard her story on the stand here, and that was not so.

"Now I agree with you right off that that is not a good way to talk. I agree with you that Lizzie A. Borden is not a saint, and, saving your presence, I have some doubts whether all of you are saints; that is to say, whether you really never speak hurriedly or impatiently....there is nothing to indicate any deep seated feeling...

"Now is there anything bad about this case where a woman like this defendant who speaks out openly and frankly and says right out, "She is not my mother, she is my step-mother?"

And the Justice in his Charge to the Jury, Trial pg. 1893/i920
"Imputing a motive to the defendant does not prove that she had it. I understand the counsel for the government to claim that defendant had towards her stepmother a strong feeling of ill will, nearly, if not quite, amounting to hatred. And Mrs. Gifford's testimony as to a conversation with the defendant in the early spring of l892 is relied upon largely as a basis for that claim, supplemented by whatever evidence there is as to defendant's conduct towards her stepmother.

(Then the Judge goes on to in my mind discredit Mrs. Gifford because she is merely a woman testifying)

But then he continues, "Again, every portion of the testimony should be estimated in the light of the rest. What you wish, of course, is a true conception--a true conception of the state of the mind of the defendant towards her stepmother, not years ago, but later and nearer the time of the homicide and to get such a true conception you must not separate Mrs. Gifford's testimony from all the rest...(and then he goes on to list the testimony of Mrs. Raymond, Bridget, Emma (and this during the trial was more than less favorable to Lizzie's relationship with Abby.)

Justice Dewey ends this portion of his charge with "...the conception that at about the time of these murders this defendant had towards her stepmother a feeling that could be properly called hatred. If that is not just a conception warranted by the evidence then it should not enter and find lodgment in your minds as a controlling idea under the operation of which the evidence in this case is to be judged."


5. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by rays on May-1st-03 at 3:48 PM
In response to Message #1.

Perhaps this "hate" was a prosecutorial fiction to explain why Abby was killed first? Do stepdaughters always become close to stepmom? What was the influence of Emma?


6. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Kat on May-2nd-03 at 1:04 AM
In response to Message #1.

Do you have an opinion Ross, after all the massive verbiage?
Do you think Emma had something to do with the way Lizzie felt about Abby?

(Message last edited May-2nd-03  1:05 AM.)


7. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Carol on May-2nd-03 at 12:26 PM
In response to Message #5.

The hatred was the main motive for the prosecution although they said they weren't interested in proving motive. Knowlton used the word hate or hatred so often in his closing statement that it is overkill.
And he went on and on making up a story that Abby had done so much for Lizzie, that Lizzie was unappreciative, that Abby gave up her whole life for devotion to Lizzie and Emma as kids and all was unappreciated because of the loathsome attitude Lizzie took toward her, etc. etc. all through the years. Knowlton didn't provide ANY evidence of this. His only evidence was Mrs. Gifford's statements and the fact that Lizzie said in some interviews that she did not call Abby "mother." Not getting on with someone doesn't equate to hate for most people but it did for Knowlton.


8. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by rays on May-2nd-03 at 12:46 PM
In response to Message #7.

The word quoted was "mean", which meant (?) someone who was exceedingly economic (IMO). It may not have meant someone who delighted in pestering people (current meaning?).
JVM did say (quoted?) that "Abby deserved more than the widow's dower because she was more frugal and faithful than Andy's first wife".
Did anyone else pick up on the "faithful" meaning?
...
Note AR Brown's solution: illegitmate son hated the woman who supplanted his mother. Does this work to explain hatred?

(Message last edited May-5th-03  5:13 PM.)


9. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Kat on May-2nd-03 at 6:48 PM
In response to Message #8.

Please please Ray don't quote that without a source, please?

Your interpretation as to "mean" is very interesting.


10. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by ross on May-2nd-03 at 8:22 PM
In response to Message #6.

No, Kat, I can't really say that I do have an opinion at this point.  In my own family, I always disliked my step-father intensely as I was growing up.  And in thinking about Lizzie, I think that I may sometimes project some of my own feelings and experiences onto her and ASSUME that her relationship with Abby was similar to my relationship with my step-father.  But, of course, I don't really know much of anything about exactly what caused the animosity between Lizzie and Abby and just how far back it went.  So I was just wondering if there had been any real accounts of what the dynamics were between the two of them when Lizzie was growing up.  I read the Inquest myself some time ago.  But I had forgotten the part that you quoted from page 135(42) in which Hiram Harrington said, "For several years, I guess, of his early marriage with her, everything was very, very pleasant, uncommonly so for a step mother."  And Hiram Harrington went on to say that the trouble between Lizzie and Abby was "of recent years".  So, as far as what Kimberly said about Emma having something to do with the way Lizzie felt about Abby, that thought occurred to me.  But if what Hiram Harrington said is accurate, then I would doubt that Emma did have anything to do with it.  Because if Lizzie and Abby were truly on good terms for many years after Abby married Andrew, then I doubt that Emma would suddenly start influencing Lizzie to dislike Abby after Lizzie was already grown up.  If Lizzie had disliked Abby ALWAYS, from the time that Abby and Andrew married, then I could imagine that Emma could have been the cause of that.  But I can't imagine that Emma would be the cause of Lizzie beginning to resent Abby when Lizzie was, say, in her 20s.  I can certainly sit here and imagine the possible reasons why a person would hate a step-parent.  There are some very common reasons why step-parents and step-children often do not get along.  But that doesn't mean that any of those reasons actually apply to Lizzie and Abby.  So I'm just trying to get a feel for just what the story was with Lizzie and Abby, but I haven't been able to get a grasp on anything concrete in what I've read so far.  And it sounds like there may not have been anything concrete written about that aspect of Lizzie's life.  Anyway, thanks for all the info all of you gave on the subject.  But it sounds like this part of the story is going to forever remain a mystery. 


11. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by haulover on May-3rd-03 at 12:25 AM
In response to Message #10.

ross:

i think your instincts are sound and objective.  what you're finding is that there is a conspicuous lack of evidence that lizzie and abby ever had a real fight.


12. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Kat on May-3rd-03 at 12:58 AM
In response to Message #10.

I'm glad you replied as to where you're coming from.
I think equating one's own life experiences as step-child is a valid way to approach the dynamics of that Borden family.

It would have some unique insight especially.

I too, forgot that Hiram said at the beginning things were fine.  I like to provide sources because I get to remember, also.
It makes sense what you say about a Lizzie in her 20's being less influenced by Emma, her sister.

Harrington did say the acrimony had been for about 10 years.

I was thinking about that 10 years after I posted and womdered what the timeline of events would show as happening about 10 years ago, like 1882.  Not starting with the house deed transferral in May 2, 1887  (Yesterday).

We should see what was going on in the family c. 1882, give or take a year before or after.


13. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Carol on May-3rd-03 at 2:46 PM
In response to Message #10.

In human relationships some say it is either love or money that is behind serious crimes. If we can determine today from what we have researched and people of the times had access to that same information, that Lizzie wasn't proved to have a real hatred of Abby, then do you think it was a good approach for the prosecution to take to use definite hatred as their main motive for accusing Lizzie of killing the Borden's?  They seemed to say that her hatred simmered and brewed and finally erupted but they didn't dwell on the inheritance issue, the inheritance was a side motive to them that was a benefit only after Lizzie also killed Andrew...the motive there was not inheritance but that if she didn't kill him he would know she was the killer of Abby. So it seems as though love or in effect, there was no love between Lizzie and Abby, making lack of love the real motive rather than money.  And Lizzie if she did it, did not gain love from anyone, she gained only money. The prosecution played all their cards on a motive that they had in fact no real substance to support.  


14. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Doug on May-4th-03 at 12:09 AM
In response to Message #13.

Though I wonder if lack or absence of an emotion, in this instance mother-daughter love, can account for the vicious nature of the attack on Abby? I think some measure or combination of active "negative" emotion (for example, anger, fear, hate, jealousy) would be needed to help fuel such an attack. 


15. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Kat on May-4th-03 at 1:05 AM
In response to Message #14.

The only way this crime against Abby could be understood, either then or now, is not that there was lack of emotion, as pointed out, but rather too much, or overflow of emotion, as also pointed out.

It was brought out that Abby had no enemy.  The only enemy Anyone could possibly find on the planet earth, was her stepchildren.
Unless Lizzie is devoid of feeling, sociopathic, then if she killed by Hatchet, it was in extreme emotion.
If Lizzie was sociopathic or narcissistic or Borderline Personality, then she could kill with glee, and heady excitment, like a thrill.  If she was Organized, which if she did it she must have been, she could even pose the bodies.


16. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Kat on May-4th-03 at 2:00 AM
In response to Message #12.

There seems to be a lot of stuff going on c. 1882-83.
That's about when Hiram says things started to go downhill in that Borden household.

Looking at a timeline:
--Dec. 6, 1882, Abraham, Andrew's FATHER died.  [This could be very important.  I bet people here can give opinions/reasons why...]
--7 months later, July 2nd, 1883, Abraham's 2nd wife died, leaving no Borden grandparents left to the girls.
--Aug., 1883, Andrew buys Lurana's share of the Ferry Street house.  [Another question about property and acrimony results.  See Hiram's alledged Interview, following..excerpt]:


Lizzie Borden:  A Case Book of Family and Crime in the 1890's, edited by Williams, Smithburn, and Peterson, 1980, pg. 42-44.

"Fall River Daily Herald, Aug. 6, 1892:

CLOSE IN MONEY MATTERS


...'When his father died some years ago he offered my wife the old homestead on Ferry street for a certain sum of money.  My wife preferred to take the money, and after the agreements were all signed, to show how close he was, he wanted my wife to pay an additional $3 for water tax upon the homestead.'
..........

...Mr. Harrington was asked if he knew whether or not there were dissentions in the Borden family.  'Yes, there were, although it has been always kept very quiet.  For nearly ten years there have been constant disputes between the daughters and their father and stepmother.  Mr. Borden gave her some bank stock and the girls thought they ought to be treated as evenly as the mother.  I guess Mr. Borden did try to do it, for he deeded to the daughters, Emma L. and Lizzie A., the homestead on Ferry street, an estate of 120 rods of land with a house and barn, all valued at $3000.  This was in 1887.' " ......


17. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Lola on May-4th-03 at 12:20 PM
In response to Message #15.

I'd like to throw into the mix how dependent Lizzie was on her father's wealth. If Andrew had left his estate to Abby, Lizzie would have been given an allowance and then would have to ask for any additional funds.

It's difficult for us to understand, with our modern sensibilities, how intolerable this would have been for Lizzie. My point being, that this alone may have been enough for her to commit murder, without an underlying hatred of Abby. Although we do know there was no love lost between them - money has always been a motive for murder. I think it's safe to say that if Lizzie's inheritance had been secure, these murders would not have happened. (Assuming that it was the inheritance that was the motivation.)

Anyhoo, that's my two cents.


18. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Kat on May-4th-03 at 4:29 PM
In response to Message #17.

Well I would make the distinction as to whether Andrew had a will or not.
The existence of a will would make a difference, yes.  That encompasses your statement that if Lizzie knew she was taken care of (in a will), these murders might not have happened.  Except if the will, if there was one, disinherited the girls, or left them with not much.  (I don't know if that fabled $25,000 we hear about was real, but I bet each girl could live on that at least in the *style to which they were accostomed*)

But this gets sticky.  Because with No will, the estate is shared 3 ways.  That's $100,000 each, after divvying up all the real estate, etc.

So then it would depend on how greedy the girls were, if they were concerned about the money.  Also, take into account Abby dying and Her Family getting Her Share.  That might have been galling to those Borden girls, to see Borden $ going to Fish and Whitehead.

I think the money thing is more complicated and there can be permutations of reasons.

(Message last edited May-4th-03  4:32 PM.)


19. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by ross on May-4th-03 at 9:52 PM
In response to Message #15.

Kat mentions that it was brought out that Abby had no enemy.  On page 8 of Rebello there is a quote (originally taken from a newspaper article) by a Mr. Horace Benson, who knew the Borden family and had had Lizzie as a student.  He also lived next door to the Bordens at one time.  Regarding Abby, he said that he "knew her as a kindly, lovable woman, who tried, but ineffectually to win the love of the stepdaughters".  I laugh a little when I read this type of thing, because it's really meaningless.  There are people who are as sweet and benign as teddy bears for the outside world.  But behind the scenes, within their own families, they can be cold, cruel and maneuvering.  I suppose we all have a bit of an "outside face", but for some people that facade is farther from the truth than it is for others.  So we don't really know WHAT Abby may have been like with Lizzie.  I read somewhere (and I'm sorry that I can't cite just where, but I can't remember right now) that Abby told someone that even though Andrew gave her and the girls equal allowances, the girls got to keep more of theirs because they didn't have to use any of it to buy household items like she (Abby) did.  So I'm sensing that Abby felt some competition with and/or jealousy toward Lizzie and Emma.  We know that Andrew was wearing Lizzie's ring when he died, and had been wearing it for about 15 years.  It sounds like there must have been some real affection between Lizzie and her father, which could also have been a source of jealousy for Abby.  I think the best tidbit that I've read so far, the one that might give me the most insight, is the Inquest testimony of Augusta Tripp from page 142.  Kat included it in her post of April 30th in this thread.  Augusta Tripp said that she thought that Lizzie felt that Abby was deceitful and two-faced.  She also said that Lizzie said Abby claimed not to have any influence with Andrew, but that Lizzie felt that Abby DID have influence with Andrew.  And if Abby WAS two-faced, acted one way toward Lizzie when Andrew wasn't there, and behaved a different way entirely in front of Andrew, I can see how that would not only cause Lizzie to have hostile feelings toward Abby, but would also make Lizzie feel betrayed by her own father if Andrew "fell for" Abby's act.  I'm sure that feeling betrayed by her father would be very painful and would cause a lot of frustration on Lizzie's part.  So I can imagine how, even if Abby and Lizzie never actually fought, Lizzie could smolder over the years with feelings of helplessness and frustration that could allow her to commit the murders without her being a sociopath or Borderline personality.  I feel that Lizzie did commit the murders, but I am sympathetic toward her and tend to give her the benefit of the doubt as to WHY she did it.  


20. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Kat on May-4th-03 at 10:54 PM
In response to Message #19.

Witness Statements, 17;
"Harrington. Visited Mrs. Jane Gray, Mrs. Borden’s step mother. Her statement. “Things were not as pleasant at the Borden house as they might be. That is the reason I did not call on Mrs. Borden as often as I would have liked to. I told Mrs. Borden I would not change places with her for all her money. What I know about them is all hearsay. Mrs. Borden was a very close mouthed woman. She would bear a great deal, and say nothing. She told me she and the girls were allowed an equal monthly allowance, but they had more out of it than I for I had to furnish the table coverings, towelling, and other small things for the house out of mine.”


21. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Kat on May-5th-03 at 8:55 PM
In response to Message #19.

We seem to have varied views of Lizzie's relationship with Abby, so it does seem possible that Abby was deceitful, in Lizzie's experience.  BUT, it could be a matter of Lizzie mouthing off as teenagers do.  *I hate so&so* this week, but then it's *I hate so&so* another.  It could just have been that summer.  Lizzie does seen somewhat of a case of arrested developement, whether she was mentally ill, cool and detached seeming, good at hiding her feelings until she blew up, or a  greedy killer.
Anecedotes about what Lizzie has said about Abby might be taken in the light of how Lizzie felt at the time.

Anyway, your points are pretty interesting.
I tried to find more examples of Abby's relationship with Lizzie, but instead I found Alice Russell's interpretation of the Borden Family Matters.  Her take on things seems geared more toward problems between the girls and Andrew:

Inquest
Alice Russell
150+
Q.  I do not like to ask this question, but I feel obliged to. Did you see enough to notice what the relations were between Miss Lizzie and her mother?
A.  In all my acquaintance, which is ten years sure, and most of that time has been, part of the time quite intimate, I never yet heard any wrangling in the family. I have got to answer the question, and I will say I dont think they were congenial.

Q.  What gave you the impression they were not congenial?
A.  Because their tastes differed in every way; one liked one thing, and the other liked another.

Q.  Were they together very much?
A.  I dont think they were very much.

Q.  I suppose what you say about Lizzie is also true of Emma?
A.  About the same; it was not always the same, but it would be hard work to tell.

Q.  I judge by your saying they have a sitting ram up stairs---
A.  They sat up there a great deal.

Q.  Their step mother did not sit up there with them?
A.  I dont think so.

Q.  Did you ever hear Lizzie speak of any trouble she had had with her mother?
A.  Yes, I suppose I have. I have heard her say that Mrs. Borden thought so and so; the same as any family.

Q.  Did she express to you ever that she regarded her mother as untruthful or deceitful?
A.  I dont think she ever did.

Q.  Did she ever allude particularly to any trouble she ever had with her mother?
A.  No Sir.

Q.  Did she ever tell you what the trouble was?
A.  Nothing further than she was a step mother. The whole thing was as far as I could see, that an own mother might have had more influence over the father; it was the father more than the mother.

Q.  What do you mean?
A.  The father was the head of the house; they had to do as he thought. Mrs. Borden did not control the house; the whole summing up of it, was that.

Q.  Were her relations with her father cordial?
A.  So far as I know. I never saw anything different.

Q.  Were they congenial?
A.  I should not suppose they would be knowing their different natures.

Q.  The different nature of the father and mother and Lizzie?
A.  Yes, each of them.

Q.  What was the difference in their natures?
A.  Mr. Borden was a plain living man with rigid ideas, and very set. They were young girls. He had earned his money, and he did not care for the things that young women in their position naturally would; and he looked upon those things---I dont know just how to put it.

Q.  He did not appreciate girls?
A.  Nor I dont think he did.

Q.  Their ideas were more modern than his with regard to the way of living, do you mean?
A.  Yes Sir.

Q.  How did you get this, from the girls talk, or what you observed?
A.  From what I observed. Everybody knew what Andrew Borden's ideas were. He was a very plain living man; he did not care for anything different it always seemed to me as if he did not see why they should care for anything different.

Q.  Did they complain about it?
A.  Yes, they used to think it ought to be different; there was no reason why it should not be. They used to think it might be different.

Q.  Lizzie or Emma, or both?
A.  Both.

Q.  There never was any wrangling between them?
A.  No, I never heard any. They had quite refined ideas, and they would like to have been cultured girls, and would like to have had different advantages, and it would natural for girls to express themselves that way. I think it would have been very unnatural if they had not.

Q.  He did not give them the advantages of education that they thought they ought to have had?
A.  I dont know as it is just that; but people cannot go and do and have, unless they have ample means to do it.


22. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by ross on May-6th-03 at 7:59 PM
In response to Message #21.

Kat, I'm interested in what you said about Lizzie's seeming like a case of arrested development.  Is that just a general impression you have gotten from everything you've read about Lizzie?  I know that you said that in connection with the different comments that Lizzie is supposed to have made about Abby (that Abby was deceitful, that Abby wasn't her mother, that Abby was a mean old thing, etc.), but is there something more that you've read that points to her being a case of arrested development?  Is there a particular Lizzie book that gives good insight into Lizzie's personality that points to her being emotionally immature?  I'd be interesting in reading about that. 


23. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by kimberly on May-6th-03 at 10:21 PM
In response to Message #22.

I've always thought V. Lincoln's book paints her as the
dumbest, dullest, craziest person ever. She acted like
she was personally offened anyone as stupid as Lizzie
was ever allowed to even exist.


24. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Kat on May-6th-03 at 11:48 PM
In response to Message #22.

I will say that my opinion may be a synthesis of every book by an author that I have read, and every primary source, including, especially her close friends and the statements made about her in the sanity survey:

Knowlton Papers, 102+
"D.S. Brigam Ex. City Marshal of Fall River...'but this girl Lizzie Borden is known by a number of people here to be a woman of a bad disposition..."

"Geo. A. Patty [Pettee]...'Lizzie is known to be ugly.' "


This is part of a post of mine that deals with Lizzie's *queerness*:

Rebello has a part Interview with Mrs. Cluny, a second cousin and who  "spent a week with the Bordens and did some housecleaning for them":

Page 177
"The reporter asked Mrs. Cluny if she had any reason to believe Lizzie to be insane.
Mrs. Cluny said, 'No, I always thought she was pretty level headed. She was peculiar, though. She was odd, very odd. I have heard a number of persons speak of it.' "

Lizzie's uncle Harrington describes her as having a *repellent* disposition (R.230).

Lizzie Borden:  A Case Book of Family and Crime in the 1890's, edited by Williams, Smithburn, and Peterson, 1980, pg. 42-44.

"Fall River Daily Herald, Aug. 6, 1892:

[Harrington]:
..."'The trouble about money matters did not diminish, nor the acerbity of the family ruptures lessen, and Mr. Borden gave each girl ten shares in the Crystal Spring Bleachery company, which he paid $100 a share for.  They sold them soon after for less than $40 per share.  He also gave them some bank stock at various times, allowing them, of course, the entire income from them.  In addition to this he gave them a weekly stipend, amounting to $200 a year.

'In spite of all this the dispute about their not being allowed enough went on with equal bitterness.  Lizzie did most of the demonstrative contention, as Emma is very quiet and unassuming, and would feel very deeply any disparaging or angry word from her father.  Lizzie, on the contrary, was haughty and domineering with the stubborn will of her father and bound to contest for her rights.  There were many animated interviews between father and daughter on this point.  Lizzie is of a repellant disposition, and after an unsuccessful passage with her father would become sulky and refuse to speak to him for days at a time." 

"Queer?  Yes, Lizzie is queer."  Quote of first sentence of *Emma's Interview" with the Boston Sunday Post, April 13, 1913.

A junior member of her own defense team, Arthur Phillips, years later, stated," If Miss Borden's mind showed any lack of balance in later years, it should not be weighed as evidence of her former condition, because she ever afterwards lived alone, she had no close friends, she was always ogled in public and very annoyed by public activities and encroachments upon her private life."...
("In Defence Of Lizzie Borden.")

(R. 499)  Abby Potter described Lizzie as "an outsider, a big mannish woman that people were afraid of."

--My impression is that after Lizzie left school, that might be about the time her emotional development stopped.  Or maybe just previous to that time.  age 15 or 16?
The sulks, the moods, the shunning on the street and in the home, not talking to someone after she has made up her mind they have transgressed her in some way.  She sounds unforgiving, with a long memory.  The story about the bank stocks sounds like Lizzie is impulsive.  If she ever was a shoplifter, which I don't necessarilly believe, that would fit also, lack of impulse control, and unconcern about the feelings of others.
This is not to say that Victorian Society didn't basically reward young women for having these childish traits.

Inquest
Mrs. Whitehead  [Abby's 1/2 sister]
156
Q.  Were you well acquainted with the daughters, Emma and Lizzie?
A.  Well, yes I was well acquainted with them.
Q.  Were you on congenial terms with them?
A.  Well, I dont know as I was. I never thought they liked me.
Q.  Not on particularly friendly terms then?
A.  No. I always thought they felt above me.

and

Witness Statements, Mrs. Whitehead, Wed., Aug. 10, by Doherty/Harrington, pg. 13 & 14:
"We then went to Mrs. Geo. Whitehead, on Fourth street. She said 'this property was owned in part by me and my mother. My mother wished to dispose of her interest. I could not purchase it, and did not want to sell; so in order that I might keep my place, Mrs. Borden, my step sister, bought the other interest. This the girls did not like; and they showed their feeling on the street by not recognizing me. Lizzie did not like Mrs. Borden.' ”





(Message last edited May-7th-03  12:00 AM.)


25. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by ross on May-7th-03 at 7:56 PM
In response to Message #24.

Thanks for all the info, Kat.  There certainly is a lot of evidence that your impression of Lizzie's personality is an accurate one. 


26. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Kat on May-7th-03 at 10:45 PM
In response to Message #25.

You're welcome.
Does anyone have another interpretation?
More sinister?  or Less childish?
Maybe more *normal* then we have been led to believe?
How about you ross?
Personally, *arrested development* would be my kindest diagnosis,tho I'm not a psychologist.


27. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Kat on May-7th-03 at 11:51 PM
In response to Message #25.

Here's a bit more.
Rebello, pg. 231:

"I have spent a day looking up the history of this young woman - I have said young, but she is no longer a girl, because she confesses under oath to the age of thirty-two. She has been an orphan for twenty-nine and a half years - in other words, she does not remember her mother, and has been reared up motherless as children usually are. The other daughter, Emma, cannot be much younger. She certainly is thirty. She is a woman of entirely different type. Her face is without serious expression, even in the terrible situation that confronts her sister and the calamity that has overtaken her family. She appears to be a woman who has never had a practical idea; her cheeks are flabby with fat, her lips are full. and pouty, her eyes are shy and distrustful - indeed, hers is one of those baby faces that we sometimes see in a crowd that cause us to wonder what their possessors find to live for it. It is very certain that she has never been any use to this world and has never had much use for it. Lizzie Andrew Borden, not 'Elizabeth' is a different type of woman. She was graduated at the ward school and, I hunted up the teacher who for several years instructed her. I learned that Miss Borden had been a quick scholar; that, even while in school, she was much given to religious thoughts; that she has a fairly good voice, quite uncultivated, that she had been raised without much care from her parents; had always been a lonely girl, with few friends and companions at school; that she had drifted along through her education course without any aim, never felt a necessity of preparation for the earning of a future livelihood, and absolutely without any desire for marriage. While her sister may be a woman with some passion, Lizzie would never be  suspected of it. She has a cold, gray eye, thin, almost bloodless lips and is wanting in personal attraction of any kind. So far as I am able to ascertain, after inquiry, she never had a lover and her hand was never asked in marriage."

"Julius Chambers, 'Who Killed the Bordens?' Collier's Once a Week, September 10, 1892: 12."


28. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Susan on May-8th-03 at 1:00 AM
In response to Message #27.

Ouch!  Sounds like Mr. Chambers had it in for both Lizzie and Emma.  I wonder how much of that is true of Lizzie while she was a girl in school? 


29. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by haulover on May-8th-03 at 1:28 AM
In response to Message #27.

as you know, i am interested in her eyes.  "she has a cold grey eye."

thanks for the additional entry. 

if i could see lizzie's eyes, i see they are an unusually light blue.  they have a blank stare.  they don't yield much information.  you might say "cold and grey."  they gaze from a remote place.  they are not unattractive or unpleasant but seem to peer from a watery distance.


30. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Tina-Kate on May-8th-03 at 9:45 AM
In response to Message #29.

Doesn't that article sound like the writer confused Emma & Lizzie?  Emma is the elder, not Lizzie.  Lizzie's lips weren't "thin & bloodless"...& she was the 1 with the moonlike babyface...


31. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Susan on May-8th-03 at 11:52 AM
In response to Message #30.

Yes, especially when he describes Emma as being a woman of passion whilst our Lizzie was not.  Hunh?!  Out of the two, it sounds like Lizzie who was the one that went out there and tried to make the most of her life and enjoy it. 


32. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Kat on May-8th-03 at 12:42 PM
In response to Message #28.

Some of the descriptions do tend to seem confused as to which describes Lizzie and which Emma.  Just the last few lines.
Apparently Chambers was getting known for his in-depth look at the characters in the case.
He also sounds *ahead of his time*.

From Rebello, pg. 134

"Julius Chambers, 'Who Killed the Bordens?' Collier's Once a Week, vol.. ix, no. 22, Saturday, September 10, 1892: 11-13.

__,'Who Killed the Bordens?' A Cavalcade of Collier's, Kenneth McArdle, ed., New York: A.S. Barnes, Inc., 1959, 1-9."

"Mr. Chambers was a staff writer for the weekly magazine Once a Week. He was in Fall River shortly after the Borden murders and attended the preliminary hearing. The article summarized the events of the Borden murders up until the conclusion of the preliminary hearing.  A reenactment of how easy it was to enter and leave the Borden property undetected was conducted and reported by Mr. Chambers.  He discovered that he had very little difficulty entering and leaving without being noticed.  He provided readers with vivid descriptions of Emma, Lizzie, Bridget, Andrew J. Jennings, and Hosea M. Knowlton.  He implied an incestuous relationship was possible between Lizzie and John V. Morse when he wrote:

'It would be a matter of the greatest importance to know all about this poor girl's private life - I say it without any morbid feeling of curiosity, but purely in the interest of justice and of American womanhood. The police have intimated undue familiarity between Lizzie and her uncle, but remembering the character of the girl and her strong religious instincts, I am loath to even consider the subject. As to old man Morse, I confess frankly that I would hate to meet him in a dark alley. He certainly has a very cruel and hardened face, and I think it would be very proper to make serious inquiry regarding his past history in that part of the far West from which he comes. I say this without any prejudice to Mr. Morse, because his alibi is apparently complete. Apropos, the early life of Mr. Borden should be inquired into. I learn that he was quite a "sporting man" when he lived in Troy twenty-odd years ago and had a curious reputation.' "


33. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Susan on May-8th-03 at 8:48 PM
In response to Message #32.

Theres that definition of Andrew again as a "sporting" man!  Did he gamble, or hunt, or fish, or play sports?  Hes describing Andrew in like his what, late 40s, with his curious reputation?  Would that be while he was still an undertaker and possbily that story was around about him chopping off the feet of corpses to make them fit? 


34. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Jim on May-8th-03 at 10:07 PM
In response to Message #33.

I have several questions if anybody has a moment to answer them for me:  Is that story about Andrew Borden true--that he chopped the feet off of corpses to make them fit?  I mean, was this ever verified or is it just a part of his personal charm as the town tightwad?  When in his life was he a mortician?  Did he use the Second Street house for his business?  Thanks!


35. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Tina-Kate on May-8th-03 at 11:35 PM
In response to Message #34.

Methinks that's just an item from the spicy rumor mill.

Borden & Almy took on undertaking (when the business was a relatively new one) as an off-shoot of their furniture making.

From Lizzie Borden, Past & Present by Leonard Rebello --

Page 51 (Newspaper ad, Dec 4, 1856) -- Borden & Almy, Undertakers...Keep constantly on hand, Burial Cases and Coffins, Ready-made of all kinds now in use in this section of the country, and can furnish them in the neatest and most approved manner at very short notice.

Page 53 -- They also engaged in the undertaking business, that is, selling caskets, renting chairs, furnishing hacks and other supplies needed for wakes and funerals.

I don't know if there is any evidence that they handled the bodies in any way, nor engaged in embalming, etc.


36. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Kat on May-9th-03 at 1:06 AM
In response to Message #34.

I believe Tina-Kate is right. 
Also, Andrew didn't move into the Second Street house until 1872, but his business was started in 1844 on Anawan St. with Almy.  It seems as if if Borden did what they say, then Almy did too, so why not Almy also have this reputation?

I think undertaking then for them was just furnishing the accoutrements to the funeral.  I think the business did display a few Civil War Officer's bodies in their store for a memorial viewing, 1866, and shipped the bodies.  (Rebello, 52 &53)

By 1872, tho, I was under the impression Borden's business no longer was including undertaking, but that is only because there weren't any more ads for that service from them, that I can tell.

By 1878 Andrew was retired from that furniture business, altogether.


37. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Tina-Kate on May-9th-03 at 9:57 AM
In response to Message #36.

Very possible they went into the business of furnishing coffins, etc in anticipation of the extra demand created by the Civil War.  Andrew wasn't one to miss an opportunity.

A friend of mine just got a job working for a large funeral home chain.  (Not her 1st choice for a career, but good $).  One of the 1st things I said to her was, "Well, at least you know it's recession proof."

(Message last edited May-9th-03  10:01 AM.)


38. "Re: Why Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"
Posted by Carol on May-9th-03 at 3:12 PM
In response to Message #14.

Hatred implies lack of love, hatred can replace love, hatred and love can coexist such as in cases where there is a love-hate relationship,

But my question was: "...do you think it was a good approach for the prosecution to take to use definite hatred as their main motive for accusing Lizzie of killing the Borden's? 

The prosecution offered as proof three things, that the police suspected Lizzie because she appeared cold during their questioning, that she didn't call Abby mother, and that Mrs. Gifford said Lizzie said Abby was a mean old thing, etc.  That's about it.  Knowlton tried to stretch that out by making up stories about how much Abby had done for Lizzie, how ungrateful Lizzie was, etc. 

I find it interesting the way the topic is stated and wonder why it was not stated as "Did Lizzie Hate Abby So Much?"  It is almost assumed that Lizzie DID hate Abby.