1. "Prussic Acid One More Time"
Posted by haulover on Apr-13th-03 at 10:08 PM

witnesses who could be informative about this besides lizzie are bence, bowen, morse, and miss russell.  that is, i'm looking to see if there is any connection that can be made by looking at the clock.

ACCORDING TO LIZZIE:
Q. Did you go into any drug store and inquire for prussic acid?
A. I did not.
Q. Where were you on Wednesday morning that you remember?
A. At home.
Q. All the time?
A. All day, until Wednesday night.

ACCORDING TO ELI BENCE:
Q. What time of day was this?
A. I should say between ten and half past eleven, somewhere.  I could not positively state the hour, as I was quite busy.  But it was before I go to dinner, which is half past eleven, and I think between ten and half past eleven, positively.

ACCORDING TO MORSE:
Q. What time of day on August 3 did you arrive at the Borden house?
A. I think about half past one.

ACCORDING TO BOWEN:
Q. On the day preceeding Aug. 4 did you see Miss Lizzie Borden at any time on the street?
A. I saw her after six o'clock -- between six and seven o'clock.

ACCORDING TO MISS RUSSELL:
Q. Now I will call your attention, if you please, to a visit she made to you upon the Wednesday night of August 3 of last year.  Did she make such a visit?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. About what time did she make it?
A. I am not sure; I think about seven.
Q. Some time in the evening, was it?
A. Yes, sir.

Bowen is not clear whether he's talking about morning or evening, but if he means evening, then his memory checks out with mrs. russell that lizzie visited her about 7. 

bence says she tried to buy it between 11 and 11:30.  morse says he got to the borden house at half past one. 

this doesn't tell me anything except that lizzie could have tried to buy it at the time bence says she did.  if morse gets there at one o'clock, lizzie has had time to come back home if she did try to buy it.

this may be redundant for some, but i needed to sort this out. 

I think it's always helpful to accumulate like items and put them together in one place.
It's a nice gesture also for others to come to one place to find something.
I support such endeavors.

If only Bence picked Lizzie out of a line-up and said she was there at half-past one!
Because Lizzie implies first that she was not home when Morse came Wednesday, she was out.
But I can't think what she was doing out from 10 a.m.(approx-. which is the earliest Bence says he saw her) to 3:30 p.m. which is when Morse left.
I think eventually Mrs. Bowen gives Lizzie her alibi through her recounting of what Abby told her:

Prelim.
Mrs. Dr. Bowen
478
Q.  Were you in the house Wednesday at all?  [The Borden's]
A.  I was there Wednesday night soon after six o'clock.
Q.  Did you see Lizzie at all Wednesday?
A.  I saw her go down the street just before I went in there.
Q.  You saw Lizzie go down the street just before you went in there, and that was sometime after six o'clock?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Did you have any talk with Mrs. Borden about their being sick?
A.  I did, I asked her how they were feeling. She said she was feeling better. Mr. Borden said he was not feeling very well. I says "I suppose Lizzie is better, for I saw her going out." Mrs. Borden says "yes, she has not been out all day, but she has gone now to see Alice Russell."
Q.  That was after you had seen Lizzie go down street yourself?
A.  Yes Sir, which was soon after I had eaten my supper; we have supper at six o'clock.

--So it makes me wonder if Lizzie meant she was out when Morse came there the second time.  Which she was--she was at Miss Russell's.
--It also has me wondering if Mrs. Dr. Bowen waited until Lizzie left to go over to see Abby.


(Message last edited Apr-14th-03  12:40 AM.)

It's quite ironic, isn't it, that poor dead Abby gave Lizzie an alibi for the Prussic acid incident?

Wasn't it the practice (like on Thursday?) to stay home and do housework in the morning? Then go visiting etc. in the afternoons and evenings? Could this be the missing evidence for an alibi?

I don't mean to split hairs, but it is also ironic that it is Mrs. Dr. Bowen who tells us this.

I have a hard time with the poison incident.
I don't know of anyone that so drastically changes M.O.

What do most think about the attempt to buy poison?
That it really happened and it was Lizzie?
Yea, or Nay?

As was noted before on this site, and in many books (?), cyanide is NOT often used as a poison. It kills quickly, and lacks the element of stealth in most poisoning. It was used in WW 2 in "L-pills" for Allied agents in case of capture and sure death after torture.

I could see Lizzie or anyone buying for self-defense (see the comedy play "Arsenic and Old Lace" for an example). To use "the cunning of her sex" against a powerful and insane killer. "Here, Willie, this nice tea will calm you down."

BTW, note that many poisonings continue for many deaths, it is not often used just once (according to some news reports, like that Doctor in England). This was often the rap put on "witches" after a cow got sick and died, or humans after an argument.

I think I believe the Prussic Acid story because of the
other weird things Lizzie did, (shoplift, the home robbery..)
as if she had the mind-set "I can do anything and get away
with it" .. I picture her as a defiant, spoiled child who
always got her way. Like getting the bigger bedroom than her
older sister, and I wonder if she had Uncle John under her
spell to do things for her as well? I think Lizzie had Brass Balls,
if that's ok to say here!

Sexually speaking, I would have to say yes to the poison.  Poison has been thought to be a woman's way to murder.  Its less messy, less violent, no direct contact need be made with your victim.

I've always kind of felt thats what the family sickness was, Lizzie may have found something lying around the house and tried it out.  Maybe it was too old, or not strong enough to do the trick.  Lizzie tells Alice how she is afraid the milk is poisoned, etc.  Perhaps she planned on poisoning the elder Bordens and then burning down the house in the night?  Just a speculation.

I don't know if its a documented fact or a Lincolnism about the book of household hints being found cracked open to a page on poisons.  If Lizzie read what she needed to do it and unfortunately found she couldn't obtain it, well, here comes the hatchet.  I keep going back to that point about Prussic Acid having the scent of bitter almonds, a food scent that wouldn't give away its presence say in a cake or cookie. 

"Bitter almonds"...I'm positive I've heard that in reference to arsenic as well.

I have a lot of doubts re the poisoning theory/prussic acid incident.  Nothing really adds up.  Reading thru the trial (gee, thanks Harry & Stef for making that so available!!), I thought about how Prof Wood found nothing.  All was normal & functioning...both of them kept their food down that AM, & it was all pretty much the same stuff they'd been eating for days.  But Bridget was sick that AM...

Something I seem to keep going back to is perhaps if a substance was added to the food/drink, the intent was to weaken, rather than to cause death.  Death was coming another way...but beforehand, have the residents of the house in a weakened state...

The TV had a show on poisoning from bacteriological weapons. They used the example of that Oregon sect in circa 1983. E. coli was sprayed on the salad bar in a local restaurant. Hundreds were violently sick!

Could the Borden's sickness simply be due to not washing their hands when needed? No traces of poisoning were found in their stomachs after autopsy. Wasn't that "summer flu"?

well, it's the usual murk.  also, i'm glad you added that from mrs. bowen; i had not read that. 

when lizzie is questioned about morse:

Q. My question is when he came there?
A. I don't know; I was not at home when he came; I was out.

later in the Q&A is this:

A. I heard him down there about supper time --no, it was earlier than that.  I heard him down there somewhere about three o'clock, I think.  I was in my room Wednesday, not feeling well, all day.

taking this in connection with the other accounts, lizzie could have left the house about 10, tried to buy prussic acid, and then (we don't know) and visited mrs. russell and back home at 9.  (would this have been when morse heard her coming in "with her clothes on"?)
but this wouldn't fit with the bowens' account of her leaving the house between 6 and 7, would it? 

i see what you're saying, kat; that lizzie might not have known that morse came as early as he did in the first place?  so if she came home after morse came back (but before she left for mrs. russells) perhaps it was his presence in the house that motivated her to go talk to mrs. russell?

on the other hand, she could have gone out for prussic acid between 10 and 11:30 and got back home before morse came in the first place.  if lizzie heard him downstairs around 3:00, then that's close to the time morse returned, isn't it?  but then in that case, she is there when he comes (unless she learned otherwise that he had already come.) 

if what mrs bowen says abby told her is true, then, yes, that's lizzie's alibi.  of course, if lizzie typically made herself scarce downstairs, she might not have known and assumed.

I'm confused.  This was a learning post as opposed to a "presentation of a theory" post.

i have not studied the Q&A about morse's visit sufficiently, i see.  actually it's essential to the prussic acid-buying issue.

I think Lizzie's statement can be taken 2 ways.
She is at home all day, then goes out at 6 or 7 to Alice's.  She is not there when Morse comes the second time.  The second time is when he returned from Swanzy about 8:45.p.m.
Lizzie is at Alice's until a bit after 9 o'clock that Wed. night.
Therefore she *was not at home when he came there*  (not quotes).
     or
Lizzie WAS out when Morse came the First Time.  He arrived about 1:30.  He ate and sat around until about 3:30 (an average), then got an equippage at the stables and went to Swanzy.
He returned about 8:45 p.m., "after dark" (Inq.99).
Lizzie says she returned about 9 p.m.
If she claims to have heard Morse about 3, then that was 1/2 an hour or so before he left for Swanzy.
So Lizzie may have been out earlier and home by 3.
That would support what she said first that she was out when he came (at 1:30) but home to hear him at  3.
So that would be the parameters of her being out.  Anytime prior to 3 p.m.
Then out again after 6 until 9.

--Something (more) irregular here.  Alice says Lizzie came "about 7" (T.374), but Mrs. Dr. Bowen says she saw Lizzie leave just before she herself came over to visit Abby, and that it was soon after her own supper at 6. (Prelim.478)

Alice says Lizzie came about 7, but according to Mrs. Dr. Bowen, Lizzie may have left her house nearer 6 p.m.
Did Lizzie stop somewhere on the way?
I checked how long it took Lizzie to get back home and apparently she got back before she even left Alice's--that's how fast she returned!
Actually, Alice said Lizzie left about 9 or so, and Lizzie said she arrived home about 9.

So really, it  seems it DID take her 1/2 hour at least too long, to GET to Alice's house Wednesday evening.

Where was Morse at 6:30 p.m, Wednesday?
In the Witness Statements Eddy says Morse showed up at Swanzy between 7 and 8 and stayed about 12 minutes..
Was there time for Morse to come back to Fall River, meet Lizzie and then go back to Swanzy?  How long would that take?
He could be giving her instructions and getting her semi-hysterical for when she ended up at Alice's, saying too much?

i can't contribute anything to your inkling now, but it does sound plausible.  it gives a reason for lizzie to visit alice as a reaction to a real encounter -- as opposed to something lizzie was preparing on her own.

the thing about morse is -- is it plausible that his visit is totally coincidental as to the whys and wherefores of the murders?  interesting how the "legend" totally excludes him -- to the point where they didn't even think they needed him in the movie.  but what a coincidence that something gets started when he visits.

This has always bothered me also, why Morse is hardly mentioned
or scrutinized in all the books.  He was an old single guy
living with a Butcher. 

Not that this has anything to do with anything -- I was channel surfing last night I came across an old Michael Caine/Anthony Quinn movie, called "The Magus".

Quinn presents Caine with a yellow lozenge & sez, "Prussic acid.  Death is instantaneous."

I laughed & thought, "Proves Lizzie didn't get any of that."

Are there any Fall Riverites who might make a guess as to how long a buggy(?) might take to get from Swanzy to Fall River and back?
Could it be done in 1/2 an hour or 45 minutes?

Or maybe someone who knows how far it is and how fast an equippage can go on those old roads, say 8 mph?

That makes good sense Kat, that Lizzie and Uncle John (and
maybe another) had a meeting before she went to Alice..

Or, maybe Lizzie went hatchet shopping, or shop-lifting, as the case may be.  I wonder how late the shops were open in Fall River at that time? 

I'm trying to figure out if all our characters were where they said they were Wednesday night.
I'm also wondering if their stories were checked by the police, re:  Wednesday night.
If a conspiracy was afoot, that night might be important.

I had noticed Morse gave differing answers about where he knew/thought Bridget to be that night --  at home or away when he returned.
By differing, I mean at Inquest, Prelim., and Trial:

Inquest
Morse
99+
Q.  Got back home about what turn?
A.  I got back to the house probably quarter to nine, not far from that, after dark.
Q.  When you got there, who did you find at home then?
A.  I think the girl was there, the servant,  and Mr. and Mrs. Borden.
Q.  And Lizzie?
A.  I know they were there.
Q.  Did you make any inquiries about Lizzie?
A.  I did not.
Q.  Nothing was said about her?
A.  No Sir.
........

Then at Prelim.& Trial::

Prelim.
Morse
238
Page 238

Q.  Who did you see when you got back?
A.  Mr. and Mrs. Borden.

Q.  You did not see* at all until after the tragedy?  *[Emma]
A.  No Sir.
..............................
Trial
Morse
128
Q.  How did you announce your presence at the door?
A.  I rang the bell.
Q.  And Mrs. Borden came to the door?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  Did you notice after you entered whether the door was closed or not?
A.  It was shut when I went in----after I went in.
Q.  Did you notice anything else with respect to the door, except that it was closed?
A.  No, sir.
Q.  Was anyone except Mr. and Mrs. Borden in the house that you saw on the Wednesday night, when you returned?
A.  No, sir, they were all there were there that I saw.
Q.  Did you see Bridget Sullivan at all that night?
A.  No, sir.
Q.  Did you see Miss Lizzie Borden at all that night?
A.  No, sir
>>>>>>>>>>>>

So I'm wondering if Morse saw Bridget while everyone was out that night, as he mentions her, caught a bit off guard(?) at the Inquest, so soon after the facts.
First Morse says Bridget was there at home he thought, when he returned.  That might be a slip-up, whereas he did see her, maybe, but while OUT. 
Bridget was the last in, about 10:05.

I also wonder if Kirby's stable was checked as to his story about the timing of when he would have returned the "team".

Because he says he saw Wm. Vinnicum, possibly a relative, and that person could fib for him...maybe just fib the time a bit--IF ASKED by authorities.

If Morse got to the farm about 7:30 (as an average betwen "7 and 8"), and stayed 12 minutes (as an average between "10 and 15 minutes") (W.S. 36), he'd be leaving there, not accomplishing much, about quarter of 8 and arriving at Andrew's at quarter of 9., an Hour!
His ride out could have been to get the eggs and then to meet up with Lizzie And/Or Bridget because they were ALL out at the same time. 
BTW:  Morse testified at Prelim., 238, that Lizzie or whoever came in the front door that night at 9:15 or 9:20 !!
(There's another lost 15 minutes or so.  I doubt Lizzie would be dawdling coming back from Alice's as she had experience seeing prowlers around her house that time of evening...)

Lizzie Has No Alibi For The Prussic Acid Incident.  Morse would be her alibi:

A. I don't know; I was not at home when he came; I was out. (I.54)
.......
Q. How did you know he was there?
A. I heard his voice.
Q. You did not see him Wednesday evening?
A. I did not; I was out Wednesday evening.
.........
Q. You did not come down to supper?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you hear him eating supper?
A. No sir. I did not know whether he was there or not.
Q. You heard him in the afternoon?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you hear him go away?
A. I did not.
.....
Q. As near as you can remember, when did you return?
A. About nine o'clock at night.
Q. The family had then retired?
A. I don't know whether they had or not. I went right to my room; I don't remember.
Q. You did not look to see?
A. No sir.
(I.55)
..........
Q. You did not see him Thursday morning?
A. I did not; he was out when I came down stairs.
.(I. 54)

--So here is the whole story as Lizzie tells it.  No "Two Ways" about it.
She did not know when Morse came.
She heard him there about 3 p.m.
After that she never knew if Morse was there.
She didn't know that he left.
She didn't know that he returned.
She didn't check to know if he was in the house before she went "directly" to bed after going straight upstairs.
She didn't see him Thursday until after the murders.
So that is Lizzie's final answer.
She must not have been home when Morse came after all.
This looks dour for Lizzie as to that poison buying incident.
By *distancing* herself from Morse and any knowledge of his whereabouts she ruins her drugstore alibi!

Morse says he hired a "team" at Kirby's.  That's 2 horses and something probably big for 2 horses to pull.  Why would he need that?  Just to bring some pears to the farm & pick up eggs in his basket to bring back?
I think you haul a lot of people with a *team*.

I found out Swanzy is about 10 miles from Fall River.  At least the farm was, according to the Williams Casebook which quotes a news article that says Hilliard and Doherty and Connors drove a carriage there to check up on things.
I figure maybe an equippage such as Morse had with a team may go about 10 mph.  That's an hour drive approximately, then.
On pg. 26, it says "an attempt was made to reach Swansy by telephone, but no answer was received."  Implying the farm had a phone.  BUT, Morse said that Andrew told him to *write him at the farm* so he (Andrew) wouldn't have to deal with the business that Morse was going to take care of for him--whether that was to find a man to run a farm, or to gather the oxen, who knows?

Anyway, that means that Andrew DID mean to be at the farm that summer, and that there probably WASN'T a telephone like the newspapers  thought.

I think yr right, Kat.  Why on earth would 1 of the Swansea farms have a phone, when they did not even have 1 @ home in FR?

The main reason the whole prussic acid incident does not sit well with me is the fact that what Abby thought was poisoning started Tues.  Why on earth would Lizzie be trying to buy poison on Wed?

BTW, I came across a commonly available poison this w/e (it's available thru my 1901 mail order catalogue) called Paris Green.  Used as an insecticide, it contained arsenic.  Amusingly enough (in my twisted brand of humour), this was listed in my dictionary almost immediately opposite the word 'parricide'.

It never sat well with me either.
Lizzie could have been out but not buying poison.
But she has no alibi and she destroys that herself!
Her own worst enemy?
Morse even says that Mrs. Borden said Lizzie was sick in her room Wednesday.

Prelim
Morse
247
Q.  Was there anything said by Mr. or Mrs. Borden as to where Lizzie was, or any question asked by you as to where she was?
A.  I asked them, when she was sick that Wednesday; and they said she was up stairs.
.........
Q.  Just after you got there, and before you went to Swansea?
A.  Yes Sir.

--So Lizzie had Mrs. Dr. Bowen saying that Abby told her Lizzie was sick in her room.
Then she has Morse saying Abby said the same thing to him.
So why did she destroy that perfect alibi?
Because she didn't know what they would say, and it was somehow more important to seem as if she had no knowledge of Morse's whereabouts.
--That's cool that you noticed that about the parricide.
I love noting word coincidences in the dictionary.

--Speaking of alibi's.  My post left my keyboard at 1:24 a.m. yet it shows 12:24 a.m. on the post itself.  After going down today they must have removed Daylight Savings Time?

(Message last edited Apr-21st-03  12:30 AM.)

To make the coincidence even worse, right beside the definition for Paris Green is a diagram showing the back of a human skull (to show parietal bones vs occipital bones) -- Abby's destroyed bones!  All this opposite parricide...

I think yr right re daylight savings time.  I'm "following you" here & getting the same thing.

I well remember the day when, if one person in a neighborhood had a phone, everybody had one!  What I mean is that everyone felt free to "borrow" that phone if an emergency came up, and the owner usually went along with it.  Possibly the police had the number of a phone somewhere in Swansea and tried calling it, only to find out nobody was home.  They might have been simply trying to get a message to the party to whom they wanted to speak.

Incidentally, I love that question that was asked Lizzie:

Q. Did you hear him eating?
A. Do you mean did I hear him going "Slurp...slurp...slurp"?

JV Morse "took a team" because it was too far to walk; and he wanted to bring back a lot more than a dozen eggs (implicitly, in the large wagon). Or maybe he got it cheaper than renting from the corner shop?

10 miles is a long way on on a hot August morning. Writing is more private than a telephone call (no operator to listen in!).

Horses would pull a wagon about 5 MPH, slightly faster than a walking man. Not as fast as 10 mph, since that would wear out the horses. IMO

Note that quoting Abby is not provable. I guess they tried to help out Lizzie from an unjust accusation. But it sounds factual, if the others were also sick that day.

As Edisto said, I remember tales from my grandmother when she was a girl.  Neighbors would take calls for people in the area and give them the message.  I can't imagine living without a telephone, but, I'm guessing it was rather a luxury item up until the 20s or 30s? 

Hey!  I got to have a little horse experiment today.  I would say Ray is pretty accurate.  I was walking beside two mounted policemen (no, not Canadian "Mounties", but city cops -- we have bike cops, too).  I'm pretty tall (5' 9"), so I guess you could say I have the gait/stride of "the average man"   The horses kept right alongside me for almost a block, then started to overtake me.  So, slightly faster than the average man (who's walking quickly).

I love the clop, clop clop sound!!

Thats helpful to hear that, Tina-Kate.  I've ridden on horses before and they can go pretty fast, but, thats not pulling a wagon.  So, it would take quite a bit of time to drive out to Swansea that way.

Funny, we're the same height, nice to know I'm not alone. 

INQUEST
MORSE
99
. I was going to Swansea. I came over to Kirby's stable, hired a horse and buggy and went over to Swansea.

So  it turns out There is some interchangeability between "team" and horse & buggy!
I found this late last night.

It is my understanding, depending on the roads, that a person on a trip, meaning a destination in mind, will probably go safely (for the horse) about one hour at a pace of about 8, 9 or 10 mph. possibly more like 8.
That would take about 1.2 hours to go 10 miles?

My dictionary defines "team" as, "2 or more beasts of burden harnessed together".  However, after yr comment Kat, I wonder if the vernacular was such that they might call 1 horse & 1 buggy "a team" (sort of like "a set")??  I always pictured it as 2 or more horses. 

1 thing that is curious is Morse could have hired a driver (& didn't?). 

Yay, Susan -- let's hear it for tall women!  It's only in the past 10 yrs or so I've noticed more girls are getting as tall (or taller) than me...even without those platform shoes (ugh!)  Except for a brief time in my mid 20s, I've been a "sensible shoes" gal.

Yes to the definition in the dictionary!
Yes to the "Set" as vernacular, I think you may be right.
And yes I also thought it was two horses.

As I remember it, the telephone was a luxury item until the 1950s for the masses. Changes in the law for "universal service" etc. You could look it up. (I had relatives in a rural area that couldn't get it until 1955 or so.)

Wow, it took that long to become an everyday item for all?  When my mom was a girl in the 1940s and 50s, they had a telephone, but, they didn't have a television set.  But, my grandfather repaired TV sets and there was always one around the house that worked, even though they had that incredibly small screen. 


Tina-Kate, lets hear it for tall men, I like them alont, makes me feel normal height. 

Hehehe.  Yeah, Susan -- I have to admit that's a weakness.  My 1st boyfriend was 6' 4" & I never felt more "feminine" in my life. 

On Hawaii 5-O today there was a case of attempted cyanide poisoning.
Patty Duke was the target.  She was a protected witness against an underworld kingpin.

A doctor of Chemistry made a small metal container with something in it;  don't know if it was powder, sealed gas, or liquid, that stuck to the bottom of a hot plate, wheeled in as room service.
But after heating by a flame it did release a smoke (maybe just so we could SEE it?) and gassed the girl and her husband.  He died, she survived.  They were gasping like fish out of water.
It took about a minute to fill the large hotel room.

It would be interesting to know about how certain poisons can be altered to infiltrate the system in ways other than digestion.

Thing is, would Lizzie know about these things???  I've always thought it would be illuminating to know what books she had been reading, from say, 1890 to 92.

WOW!! You can get good shows from the past.
The poisonous effect of cyanide came from its discoverer. He dropped a glass bottle with cyanide in it, then died almost immediately.
This was covered in an earlier posting by somebody.

Sometimes I agree with the idea that Lizzie was probably fooling around with some substance and did make that family sick.
I had heard on the news of families getting just these similar reactions to soap.
Dishes which were not rinsed well after soaping.
It's not necessarily irritating, but can cause vomitting & diarhea.
Just soap.

The phoney OUIJA did say Soap was put into the food.
I think that's possible.
I don't think Lizzie tried to buy poison, unless it was mail-order from Sears..
I really cannot see her walk into a shop and ask for that.
Nobody is that dumb.

That Paris Green (arsenic) was probably available anywhere insecticides were sold & could be purchased without raising an eyebrow.  May have even been sitting around the house...t'was August & well into bug season.

Hmmm -- used for killing fleas perhaps?

(Message last edited Apr-25th-03  8:48 AM.)

GASP!
By george may -be  she's got it!

A theory that maybe Lizzie bought some sort of insecticide to kill fleas in her room?**
I wonder if she ordered it, by mail?

Even in this day it is kind of demeaning to admit your house has fleas.  (Or maybe people lived with those conditions back then?)

That's interesting, Tina-Kate.
Then Lizzie could say, if insecticide was found, Oh I have fleas.

**I mention just her room because Lizzie didn't say *WE* had fleas.

(Message last edited Apr-25th-03  4:26 PM.)

& "flea bites" on the lower legs 

Oooo, and don't forget those nasty moths in her sealskin sack! 

Where would the fleas come from, they didn't have pets, except
the headless pigeons... just wondering...

We hear Lizzie likes pets.
Maybe there are fleas in the barn.
Do you know if horses carry fleas?

Well, there did not necessarily have to be any actual fleas.  Could just have made for a very convenient excuse.

At the Trial, Bridget says that Lizzie, Wednesday, was down at breakfast, and also down BEFORE dinner.  (T. 263)

Breakfast, we might guess would be about 7:30 a.m. if we go by Thursday's meal time.

Lizzie likes to stay abed late or at least in her room, usually missing breakfast, according to Mrs. Dr. Bowen and to Morse.

So why is she down Wednesday morning?
Wednesday is the day Eli Bence says Lizzie was in the drugstore.

Then she is down before dinner.
Dinner is at noon.  Maybe she was down about 11:30 , 11:45. approximately.  We don't know if she ate.

SO -- she is seen (Or alibied) by Bridget around 7:30 a.m. and around 11:30 a.m.  She herself says she heard Morse around 3 p.m.
So now we have gaps from 7:30 or 8 a.m. (trying to include the length of the meal) until 11:30 or 12:30 (if she stayed down to eat), when she is next noted by Bridget.  Then only Lizzie's word that she was there at 3, but probably she was.  But there is a gap from 12:30 or so until 3, and then she is next seen at around 6 p.m. on her way to visit Alice.

Bridget is asked specifically if she saw Lizzie at other times that day and she says she doesn't remember seeing her.  (T. 293 & 294-Redirect)
When she did see Lizzie, Lizzie was wearing the "basque and skirt" that was the outfit "made in the spring".

--To re-count:
Gap from approx. 7:30 or 8 a.m. until approx. 11:30 a.m., then gap until 3, and gap until 6.

Bence states the person came in between 10:00 and 11:30 a.m.
[Inq. 161]

Was Lizzie trying to establish an alibi?
This is very suspicious to me.  This is a new thing for me to wonder if Lizzie really was in that shop.
Why get up so early?
And be *missing* from view for the exact times Bence states?
AND is conveniently out of the way before Morse does come, while still showing herself to the family at dinner, noonish.

Kat:

do you know of a credible reason why bence may have had something against her and lied about seeing her in his store?  and together with the other witnesses?

it was too stupid for her to try to buy prussic acid on wednesday -- but was it any less stupid for the murderer to commit those crimes in the middle of a busy day?

about the soap suds in the soup:  you've probably seen the movie, "the sixth sense."  that mother who slowly killed her daughter by putting cleansers in her food -- that's what i thought about when i read the theory that lizzie put soap in their food.

I pictured Bence as being earnest in his belief that Lizzie was in his shop, but I kind of thought it could just as easily have been a case of mistaken identity;  coupled with the fact that the other witness described  the voice he heard as differing from the description given by Bence.
I didn't consider Bence as lying.  I thought he believed what he was telling.

With no line-up, I had to give Lizzie the benefit of not only the doubt, but the benefit of not being that stupid.

Also, under intense questioning at the Preliminary hearing, we find out he cannot tell what the lady wore, whether she had a hat of a certain style, whether she wore a veil or had on gloves, doesn't recollect if a purse or bag was carried, nor how many other ladies came in that day or what they asked for or what they bought.  He doesn't remember the date he testified at the Inquest, and agrees that he never signed the statement he gave there, which the questioner says is expected of him.
He had been away a while and just come back to work.  He says he was very busy, and then gives the time the lady came as 10 to 11:30 a.m. , which is quite a stretch of time.

I know you base some of your conviction that it was Lizzie on the description Bence gives about the *expression about the eyes*.
One thing going for Bence but many more against, in my estimation.

I think it was in the recent LBQ where I read there are about 40 Andrew Bordens in Oak Grove cementary today.  There might be other Emma's and Lizzie's and also we do know there were other Andrew Bordens living in the near vincinity contemporary to the crimes.  We have also read claims in the papers that Lizzie was of a type common in the area.

Oh, and I might add that Bence says he knew both officers "well" who came to ask him about this I.D.--one happens to be Phil Harrington.

The questioner, here below, also puts a seed of doubt into the mix by implying Bence once told this Mr. Gray that he, Bence could not swear it was Miss Lizzie Borden.

Prelim.
Bence
312
Q.  Did you ever make a statement to anybody that you could not swear that it was Miss Borden?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Or anything like that, I do not mean the precise words, in substance that?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Do you know Mr. Gray?
A.  What Gray?
Q.  George Gray.
A.  George Gray? There is a George Gray lives on Whipple street, on the same street I do, he goes to Harvard.
Q.  Have you talked with him about it?
A.  Never to my knowledge. I do not think he has been in the shop since then.
Q.  Do you recollect ever having discussed this question with him?
A.  Not to my knowledge, no sir.
...........
315
Q.  What was the peculiarity about this voice?
A.  The peculiarity was in the way that she spoke; it was kind of --- a little tremulous.
Q.  It was tremulous when?
A.  When she spoke to me for the acid.
Q.  It trembled when she said she had not seen anybody, did not it?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  The same tremor in it?
A.  I should say it was.
Q.  Was there anythingelse except this tremulousness that you noticed?
A.  She talked a little might low; I do not know as I can put it in words, just what I want to say.
.......
Prelim
Frank Kilroy
319
Q.  She did not speak low, or anything of that sort?
A.  Quite a loud tone it seemed to me.
Q.  Tremulous, was it not?
A.  I could not say that it was.
Q.  Was it not?
A.  I do not think so; it did not seem so to me, to be very tremulous.
Q.  You did not observe those tremulous tones?
A.  No sir.
........................

BUT, While following up a line by Tina-Kate I found Bridget giving specific times as to when Lizzie was seen by her on Wednesday in that house.  The times Lizzie WAS NOT SEEN  was more suspicious to me than any outsider's claims.




(Message last edited Apr-26th-03  3:15 PM.)

your point is well-taken.  i just wish i could get more satisfaction about this.

the reason i've placed importance on that "peculiar look about the eyes" is that victoria lincoln, who saw her, also had something to say about this.  that's in the line in my poem.  this lets me see her.  i've seen people who have a light blue/light grey cast in their eyes and they approximate a kind of clear crystal look.  that's what i'm thinking i'd notice in lizzie's gaze.  it's unusual enough that someone might call it "peculiar."  as i'm always looking for "images" i couldn't resist that one.

One of the authors (probably AR Brown) points out that one of the drugstore witnesses says Lizzie spoke low, another said "tremulous", and the last said "loud". How account for the differences?
Did any know Lizzie well from the past?

It was odd but Bence said Lizzie had been pointed out to him on the street several times prior.
I wondered why?
Maybe she was seen as rich old man Borden's daughter (Or a look-alike) and someone was thinking of making a play for her?  Why else would these young men be interested in who she was?  Any ideas?

Also he thinks he served her at another store 6 years before, but is not sure.

At the Preliminary Hearing, Adams spends quite a bit of time stressing Bence's recollection that Lizzie was not wearing a blue dress when she came into the store on Wednesday. On page 311 he hammers it home again:

"Q. If I understand you, I want to get it right, you are positively sure this was not a blue dress?
A.  I said it was not a blue dress.
Q. You are sure of that?
A. I am sure."

Possibly, if Bence had testified at trial, the defense was planning to rebut his testimony with Bridget's testimony that Lizzie was wearing a blue dress on Wednesday.

As far as the men noticing Lizzie ... I just read the other day that when she and Emma died in 1927 -- if their combined estates at that time were converted to 1996 dollars -- they would have been worth 22 million dollars. That's a lot of money.  (Interestingly enough, Emma retained much more than Lizzie -- 13.5 vs. 8.5.) I don't know what other young ladies' father's holdings were -- but Lizzie's dowry must have been right up there.
(Source: Rebello, p.340 and p.349)

that andrew borden had a reputation?  this seems the most likely answer.  didn't bence say something to the effect that he had seen her before but did not know that she was "andrew borden's daughter?"

i don't know how to explain those different accounts of what her voice sounded like.  could it simply be it did not sound the same the whole time?  that she started out nervous, shy, fearful -- but when she realized she wouldn't get it she became indignant and raised her voice?

this prussic acid story is important because abby complained of poison just before the murders.  it is possible that lizzie did this and got back home before morse arrived.  nothing like proof for it though.

This *incident* has never made any sense to me.
Someone here said recently, why would Lizzie buy poison on Wednesday when the Borden's may have been poisoned Tuesday?

I suppose Andrew's reputation made people point out Lizzie on the street, but if they were pointing at her BEFORe the muders, you'd think she'd a been used to it After?  (joke)

This is recent for me.

I never thought Lizzie went into that drugstore.

And we can't say Bence was a good observer to identify Lizzie's voice compared to the other witness who gave a different description, because he really comes across as rather unobservent when questioned on everthing else to do with the woman he refused to serve.
Oh, except for the eyes.

(Message last edited Apr-28th-03  12:40 AM.)

IF she did it (NEVER PROVED), then it would be as a weapon against the expected visitor on Thursday. We know Uncle John tipped off his nieces when they were away; Lizzie returned after this.

Please supply the citations, Kat. Thank You!

Hello Kat,
I'm arriving at this thread pretty late (54 messages) but anyway . . .

We must keep in mind that Bence was not the only one who testified he saw Lizzie in Smith's drug store.  There were two other witnesses:

Frederick B. Hart, another clerk in the drug store, testified he heard Lizzie order prussic acid. He also mentioned she had a cape over her arm. He had never seen her before, but recognized her from a photograph in the Globe.

Frank Kilroy, a medical student, also identified Lizzie as the woman who ordered prussic acid. He also noticed a cape over her arm.
He testified that her "knew her by sight" for a year.

While the testimony of these two additional witnesses was not conclusive,it certainly cannot be dismissed out of hand.

All of this, or course, is of academic interest only since the testimony re. the prussic acid was not admitted at the trial.

Thanks Bill.
I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, but I have been weighing for years why a person who wanted poison would switch M.O. to a hatchet if Lizzie did indeed do the murders.
And Why she would shop about 3 blocks away from her own street.
And the identifications were not done properly, like a line up.  The officials basically said here is Lizzie Andrew Borden...is she the one who asked for cyanide?

As to the sealskin cape, that doesn't prove anything to me but only that those 2 extra guys thought the person they saw carried such a thing.  We cannot put that cape on the arm of Lizzie.
Bence certainly didn't remember it.

The misidentification, or rather a differring description of the woman's voice is a mitigating circumstance and can't be used, I think.  We have to discount the voice I.D. completely, as there is no concensus among 2 witnesses.
Also one *witness* I'D.ing her from her photo in the paper is spurious to me.

The fact there are 3 persons willing to testify IS against Lizzie, in my opinion.  But I have heard over & over that eye-witness testimony is the worst kind, and usually a headache to both sides.

Actually, I am more inclined NOW to think that episode may have happened mostly because of Lizzie's presence or non-presence in the Borden home that day.
Who do we believe tho about Wednesday?
The 3 drugstore guys, or Abby herself who tells Mrs. Dr. Bowen and Morse her belief that Lizzie was in her room all day?

This is stuff I struggle with and I appreciate the input!

.....
Ray, per your question about citations, please be specific and I will comply.  I'm not sure to what you refer.

(Message last edited Apr-28th-03  4:22 PM.)

i guess we're beating this to death at this point.  but apart from "the eyes" -- i do see a "pattern."  many things we can't know are possible.  but the probability increases once you detect a pattern -- which is, tuesday poison is soap or any number of household substances, wednesday try to buy killer poison, thursday the axe (which finally works).  your problem with this is similar to one of the reasons it was dismissed.  let's say the murderer was determined and could not get poison, and time is running out.  then what?  it would seem foolish of lizzie to try and buy it just up the street.  but the killings themselves are so foolish or irrational it's hard to believe anyone could have done it.  yet someone did and got away with it. 

Yes beat to death yet such a mystery! I don't remember reading
anywhere that they found this "sealskin cape" Lizzie suppossedly
had over her arm?  On one hand I think Lizzie had the audacity
to go into a store a few blocks away asking for poision (as she
thought nothing of stealing things) but still I don't think she
was in the store that day, maybe another day and that is why the
clerks remembered her. 

William, you stated Frederick B. Hart recognized Lizzie from a photograph in the Globe.

My reprint copies of the Fall River Daily Globe (Aug 5 & 6, 1892) contain no photographs, all illustrations are drawings.  I'm not sure photos were commonly used in newspapers back in 1892.  And, we all know how notoriously inaccurate all the various illustrations of Lizzie were.  How could this be seen as a truly reliable ID?

Pls correct me if I'm wrong.

Haulover, I've also considered yr "progressive" theory, which does make sense.  However, I cannot get past the "gut" that the final "method" was pre-meditated.  I have to say it's more than even gut, due to the astonishing amount of "coincidences" (we've covered all of this).

Hate to compare this to Sept 11 -- but it's my same reaction when I 1st saw what was happening that AM:  "Whoever did this...this took an enormous amount of planning & precision".

Everyone has really good points!

Here are some depictions of Lizzie from the Sourcebook.
The largest drawing is probably similar to the one William spoke of in the Globe.

I only say that because it has been reproduced in at least the Standard and the New York Herald (from Sourcebook, Kent)


edit here:  I meant to give the page numbers:
Clockwise from left:  310, 281, 19, 232, 210



(Message last edited Apr-29th-03  1:36 AM.)

The one in the middle on the bottom looks so much like Lizzie to me, too cool!  The big one on the right is a copy of that one photo of Lizzie, but, I wonder where the artist got the picture to copy that in the first place? 

Nice collage Kat.  Didn't Lizzie have a good laugh at the many different drawings of her?  At the after-the-trial party at the Holmes'?

I agree Susan.  To me, the only 1 that really looks like Lizzie is that middle 1 (with the fan).

Great examples, Kat!

From:   http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Galleries.htm



From:  http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/LizzieBordenArtifacts.htm

Note the common feature of the flower at her neck...
Glad you asked that question.  Hadn't noticed this before.  I did think that drawing looked familiar when I photographed it.

(Message last edited Apr-29th-03  2:52 AM.)

Somehow I can't see any of the Borden clan giving up a photo to be made into a drawing, especially after the deal with Jennings not wanting any family pictures in the Fall River Tragedy book.  Do you think perhaps Uncle Hiram had a copy of this photo that he gave or at least let a newspaper artist sit down and do a copy of?    To me, he would be the most likely suspect.

From Lizzie's inquest testimony: pg 91 FRHS printed copy
Q: Have you sealskin sacks?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Where are they?
A: Hanging in a large white bag in the attic, each one separate.
Q: Put away for the summer?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Do you ever use prussic acid on your sacks?
A: Acid? No, sir; I don't use anything on them.

That is the extent of the attorney's questions regarding the sacks and it is at the very tail end of her testimony.

Whether the police actually looked at these sacks in the attic I am not sure, perhaps the Police Witness Statements say.  They did say they searched in the attic, I believe, but were looking in trunks. If they had looked at the hanging sacks they might have observed the white coverings on each sack, and observed whether or not any of them didn't have dust on them, showing Lizzie had been opening them, then they could have had a clue as to whether Lizzie took one out to take with her to the drug store. Dust on a white cover would show I would think and if they were put away since spring that would be several months to collect dust upstairs.

Tina Kat you are correct.  I misspoke. Hart used the word "picture," not photograph when he testified at the Inquest.  When he testified at the Hearing, he said he recognized her from her court appearance.
Kat has the picture in question on her message #69. It is the well-known "pansy pin picture" photographed c. 1890.  I would hazard a guess that a Globe reported obtained a copy of the photograph from the professional photographer who had taken the picture. This was then used by the staff artist when he drew the picture.
Thanks for keeping me honest.

If you read about newspaper reporters, you will learn about the tricks they used to get copies of pictures. "Borrowing one" was commong. If taken by a studio, money talks.

Here's a question for you.

Why would Lizzie go to Alice Russell's Wednesday night and speak of poison, if she had been out that morning trying to buy some?

And why also would she try that purchase knowing Dr. Bowen had been notified of a poisonous episode by Abby Wednesday morning?  That same morning.

(Just as an aside, Dolan took the stomachs Thursday just on those two people's statements.  I wonder if that became a rumor that passed around town?  Phil Harrington certainly knew all this before he *found* Bence as a witness to a possible poison-buying episode.  He was ordered by Dr. Dolan to guard the milk and was relieved of that duty by his own superior.  He always sonds surly to me on this one subject))

--BTW:  Dr. Bowen is alibi-ing Lizzie Wednesday about 9 a.m. by saying when he came over to see Andrew, she was just rushing up the front stairs. [Inq. 116]
--But now we would have Lizzie go up stairs, get dressed for the street in an outfit that most certainly was NOT blue, and sneak out to try to buy the most lethal and quick-acting poison [not] available, after the doctor leaves?

If you read "Possible Solution?" for my speculations, you may know that Alice's tale came weeks afterwards. The story about an attempted poison purchase came a day after the murders. Alice already knew about it! (Unless I'me mistaken about when Alice told her story?)

It seems to me that Alice's story about Wed evening and the Sunday burning is a way to implicate Lizzie and make herself look innocent. That is only my speculation. But it explains why she waited so long to tell it; as if something had happened to turn her against Lizzie.

Or maybe it took that long for her conscience to kick in? AGAIN, if the hatchet and bloody dress is missing, and LAB did it, the one opportunity to get rid of it was to send it to Alice via Bridget. I think AR Brown nailed down the solution; but this idea may interest others on this site.

Maybe by Wed morning Lizzie was told that "nemesis" was going to come over, and she was "afraid that something may happen". Or was Uncle John's visit a complete surprise?
Did JVM expect to spend the night there when he had relatives in town he could also visit and wanted to see?

Excellent points, Kat.

Thanks.  I wish I knew the answers.
This is still ME going back and forth now, pro and con, on Lizzie buying poison Wednesday.
I think if it were much earlier in time, say a month or so, it would be more believable.
But all that on the same day?
The sickness could have suggested poison to Lizzie, I suppose.
But that would mean getting the idea From the elder's illness, not being responsible for Tuesday night's sickness.
Unless she used something else and decided it wasn't going to work.

But, I think if she realized it was not working by Wednesday, then maybe she might get another weapon, maybe, ready and give up on the poison.  Too many people had heard of poison by 10 a.m Wednesday, Aug. 3rd.  Then she wouldn't be at Smith's drugstore anyway, after all...

Perhaps Lizzie mentioned poison to Alice on Wednesday night because she had been poisoning the elder Bordens and may have thought that Dr. Bowen did find something and that is why he came over to examine Andrew?  Dr. Bowen saw Lizzie hurrying up the stairs when he got there, couldn't you just see her going, oh, damn, her comes Bowen, the jig is up!

Its as if later on if Dr. Bowen stated that they had been poisoned, Lizzie could point out to the police, if and when they came after her, "If I had been the one poisoning them, why would I tell my dear friend, Alice, about it?" 

Then do you think that Lizzie was practicing fake vomiting Wed. night so her parents would hear her and suppose she was sick too? She surely, if she had poisoned them, not have really taken poison herself just so she could make an impression.

That should have read early Wed. a.m. when all the vomiting occured.

It is very difficult to read the testimony of people and decide whether they have told the essence of what went on, what was said to them by others, or whether they told what they thought important about the conversation in relation to the question the attorney was asking them.  Much is lost because the attorney didn't let the person go on, or the person forgot or didn't comprehend the importance of certain elements of past conversations.

Trial
Alice Russell
376, 377
." And then I said---I asked her what time the milk came, if she knew. She said, "I think about four o'clock." And I said, "Well, it is light at four. I shouldn't think anybody would dare to come then and tamper with the cans for fear somebody would see them." And she said, "I shouldn't think so." And she said, "They were awfully sick; and I wasn't sick, I didn't vomit;   but I heard them vomiting and stepped to the door and asked if I could do anything, and they said, No."

Q.  (By Mr. Robinson.)  Will you please repeat that?
A.  Lizzie said "I didn't vomit. I heard them vomit, but I didn't vomit. I wasn't sick enough to vomit, but they were.  I heard them, and I stepped to the door and asked them if I could do anything,  and they said no."

Also see Knowlton Papers, Letter dated June 2, 1893 to Mr. Moody, by Alice Russell, pg. 227.


(Message last edited May-1st-03  5:24 PM.)

Thanks for posting that, Kat.  I was going to look for that because I remembered that Lizzie herself said she never vomited that night.  The thought comes to my mind, what exactly was the last thing that the elder Bordens ate that night before going to bed.  Bridget didn't vomit until the morning after, perhaps she didn't eat or drink any of what they had until that morning?  Hmmmm. 

Well from Lizzie's own mouth to Alice, to be precise.
But you could say that, since Lizzie didn't speak in that court in her own favor, we have to depend upon what we do know, and who we find believable.
Bridget said the Borden's had Fried Swordfish for dinner Tuesday and warmed over fish and toast for supper.
Then she says that the night the Borden's had the "toast" was the night Mr. Borden, at least, had milk on his.
(I think we used to call that 'milk-toast'?)
First she says it was Wednesday but then says whatever night they had the toast, it was with milk, for Andrew.

If that was what had been tampered with (If anything was), Lizzie told Alice she thought milk was the carrier of the poison.  Bridget didn't have the bakers bread that night, just her own bread.  (BTW:  She also says she is "always having headaches.", Prelim. 66)

I think it''s way odd, that Morse would come Wednesday, say he wasn't hungry, and then proceed to eat there if poison was suspected.  I don't think Andrew and Abby would serve him food they thought had made them sick, nor would he eat at their table if he knew or believed anything about poison.
He shows up and says he's not hungry.  That was enough to keep him from eating, yet he ate?

Thats part of what makes Lizzie look suspicious, her not vomiting, why would she state that she didn't if she did?  I wonder if Bridget had any of the Swordfish at all?  From Bridget's Trial testimony, the last thing that Bridget had before going to bed on Wednesday night was a glass of milk, yet, she wasn't sick until later the next morning.  Do you suppose that Bridget suffered from migraines?  My boss who suffered from them would have the blinding pain and eventually would vomit from it, she would usually start to feel better after that, I don't know why?

Could some sort of poison be mixed in with the salt or pepper shakers on the dining room table?  I don't think they were ever mentioned or checked for that matter, they would have been hidden in plain sight.  Yet, John Morse ate at the table and didn't get sick at all.  Maybe he made his protests about not eating and Abby made up a dish for him anyway, would that be considered rude if he didn't at least take a few bites of it?  I'm thinking Victorian etiquette. 

From the inquest, Dr. Bowen, pg. 116:
The attorney is asking about the visit Wed. morning of Abby to his house and his visit to the Borden's regarding the sickness:
Q:  Do you recollect what it was you prescribed for her?
A:  I told her to take some castor oil, and take it in a little port wine to take the taste off, and probably that would be all she would want. I think imediately after breakfast. I thought they were neighbors, I would just go over. Before that, she said Lizzie came down, she heard them vomiting. I THINK SHE WAS IN THE NEXT ROOM, AND SHE WAS TO UP TOO, AND SHE COMMENCED TO VOMIT AT THAT TIME, ABOUT TWELVE (my caps.--my interpretation here is this sentence refers to Lizzie,).  I thought if they did not call me I would go over and make a friendly call. I went over after breakfast....

Anyway, it is also clear that Lizzie says she wasn't feeling well Wed, which is the reason she kept to her room. She is putting herself in an upset condition like Abby and Andrew on Wed. and Bridget on Thursday, who all vomited.  So if she really didn't vomit then she was either still sick but not serious enough to vomit, she did vomit but denied it later, or Dr. Bowen misunderstood that Lizzie did vomit or she didn't vomit and not sick but made it appear she did as a cover.

Vomiting is a classic sign of food poisoning. (I remember this once from college. And there was a big line for the stalls!).
If Lizzie (and Emma) ate separately, then maybe they would know what to avoid if Andy and Abby had the heaves (leftover swordfish?).

Would that be enough to cause Andy to skip the meal? NO!
Here's one example. Back around June 1971 a retired banker and his wife opened a can of vichysoisse soup. The wife thought it was off, and didn't eat much. The retired banker said "I won't waste my money" (or words to that effect) and finished it. It had botulism! The banker died, his wife survived. Its only one anecdote, but supplies a sign.

The small company that made it went bankrupt. Who would buy from them?

Ever get an upset stomach? Not bad enough to vomit?
Doesn't it make you lie down or rest? Not to go visiting?
"Common sense" means what you would do a similar position.

There were two stories in the Evening Standard that week, of  arsenical poisoning:  one at a restaurant, The Cable House, Newburyport (fatal) and it was found in the pepper, article dated Aug. 4th;  The other item dated Aug. 5th, "Arsenic In Tea", Salisbury Beach, Mass., "cause of the poisoning cases here."

--Oddly, both places where poisoning occured have the word "bury" in their name.  Or maybe not oddly...

So twice now we have Dr. Bowen contradicting other witnesses.

Bowen claims:
.... I says “what is the matter Lizzie?” She said she was afraid her father had been stabbed or hurt. I think the word stabbed was used.

While Churchill claims:
... I says,"what is the matter Lizzie?"  She said,"O, Mrs. Churchill, do come over, somebody has killed Father." 

And Bridget claims;
... I asked her what was the matter.  She said,"come down quick," that her father was dead.

The latter two were there first.
____________

As to the vomiting, Bowen didn't see to examine Lizzie Wednesday, yet he did examine, at least by look and questioning Andrew & Abby after knowing they vomited.  Why not Lizzie, if she was sick?

Alice says:
...Q.  (By Mr. Robinson.)  Will you please repeat that?
A.  Lizzie said "I didn't vomit. I heard them vomit, but I didn't vomit. I wasn't sick enough to vomit, but they were.  I heard them, and I stepped to the door and asked them if I could do anything,  and they said no."

But Bowen, apparently says:
...Before that, she [Abby] said Lizzie came down, she heard them vomiting, I think she was in the next room, and she was up too, and she commenced to vomit at the time, about twelve. I thought if they did not call me I would go over and make a friendly call. I went over after breakfast.

--Here is Dr. Bowen quoting Abby [who is dead] quoting Lizzie, whereas in the other witnesses we have their firsthand quote of Lizzie



(Message last edited May-2nd-03  7:21 PM.)

Re the attempted purchase of the prussic acid, there is a very interesting letter (May 26, 1893) put forward by a Mr. Samuel P. Fowler to Pillsbury in the Knowlton papers.  (HK195, p201).  I'm not sure of his facts as that is not my point but his theory is worth considering. The letter in part reads:

      "As to the prussic acid testimony, in addition to the extreme improbability that three witnesses should mistake the identity of the prisoner, is the fact that prussic acid is seldom used in murder, and is a poison that only an educated person - like Lizzie Borden - would be likely to know of. She doubtless, knew that it was very quick, and most powerful in its action.
      Perhaps expert testimony would show that the use of this poison is harder of detection, both before and after death, than that of most others.
      Jerome C. (or T.) Borden testified that, some time after 6 o'clock in the evening before the murder, he saw Lizzie Borden going down the street, and that soon after Mrs. Borden told him Lizzie had not been out for all day, till then, on account of her (Lizzie's) sickness.
      But, doubtless, Lizzie could have slipped out for a short time in the forenoon without Mrs. B's knowledge; Lizzie did not feel well enough to go to a distant drug store, and naturally, would not want her step-mother to know that she had gone out; so she went to Smith's store, comparatively near her home (I infer,) though she knew the danger of being identified at Smith's. But she was willing to run that risk, for, seemingly, she was in desperate haste - as the next day's horrors show - for she knew that Emma might return at any moment from her visit, already of two or three weeks duration. The prisoner's voice, "low and a little tremulous," when asking for the poison, is significant."

According to the Glossary, Fowler had a degree in medicine but he's not described as a doctor.

Cunningham, in the Witness Staements [43-44] uses the word "Stabbed":

"John J. Cunningham, who carries papers, was going by Mr. Hall’s stable, and says Mrs. Churchill and several men were talking very serious. He asked them what the matter was, and a boy by the name of Albert Pierce told him that some one had stabbed A. J. Borden at his house. Cunningham says be went right into Mr. Gorman’s store, corner of Second and Borden streets, and telephoned what he had.heard, first to the City Marshal, then to the Daily Globe office. By the clock in Mr. Gorman’s store, it was then ten minutes to eleven; but it may not have been right."

Dr. Bowen says:
(Inquest, 117)
Q.  What was the first information that you had of the tragedy.
A.  I drove up to my house, and my wife came to the door, and made a motion, and says “they want you quick over to Mr. Borden’s.” The same time I think Thomas Bowles, a man that works across the street told me, at the same time, I dont know which was first. I thought probably they were worse, so I went right over quick.

--It sounds as if our Dr. Bowen heard "stabbed" most probably from Bowles, by way of Cunningham and others, and from the idea going 'round the stables.

Whats strange about Dr. Bowen's statement there about what Abby told him is that she said that Lizzie had come down.  I thought Lizzie was in her room and heard the elder Bordens vomiting in their room.  She goes to the door, I assume the connecting door to the rooms and ask if she can do anything for them.

From Dr. Bowen's earlier statement in the Inquest, he said that Abby said that they vomited from 9 o'clock until 12.  Maybe what he is trying to say is that Lizzie was in the next room (her room) heard them vomiting, went downstairs and then came up the back stairs to the door that the elder Bordens used to get into their bedroom.  No mention of Lizzie asking if she can help, but, then Abby started vomiting again and the time was about 12 o'clock.  Think it would hold any water? 

I was also wondering at the phrase "came down", and also the possibility that Abby meant she, Abby, vomited again at 12 o'clock.

The absence of a proper name to designate "she" happens all the time in the world of English grammer, making sentences confusing .
I might hear someone speaking about *Carla came to see Linda and she was driving too fast and got a ticket.*
Technically Linda being the last proper name mentioned should be the focus of the ticket, but not so.  I get confused all the time because this is done repeatedly, everywhere.
I always have to interrupt and ask to which person they refer, so I can have it clear as they proceed with the story.

I think that can apply here, but am not sure.

"Came down" tho, sounds like Lizzie was up on the floor above.

Our resident expert in the Fall River vernacular may have a comment...?  Doug?

one thing about the vomitting no one has yet mentioned is that it is plausibly connected to this sound lizzie claimed she heard before discovering the murder.  her words were "a groan, a distressing sound, a scraping sound."  now if you think about it, that is a good description of the sound of violent vomitting.   

Yes, OK.  But where's the vomit?
Is it inside or outside and would it have been noted, do you think?  And who do you think vomited, if Lizzie heard it?

I don't get how Mr. Samuel P. Fowler could call Lizzie
"a very educated person" - as she didn't even graduate
high school..

Dr. Bowen: "Before that, she said Lizzie came down, she heard them vomiting. I THINK SHE WAS IN THE NEXT ROOM, AND SHE WAS TO UP TOO, AND SHE COMMENCED TO VOMIT AT THAT TIME, ABOUT TWELVE."

I think the "came down" might refer to Abby meaning that Lizzie came down with the sickness that night too, which would be true. Lizzie came down with it around twelve and Abby and Andrew from 9 to 12. The evidence for Lizzie vomiting comes from Dr. Bowen through Abby, the evidence for Lizzie not vomiting comes from Alice Russell through Lizzie. It isn't necessary to discount one, they may both be right.

Consider, my original point way back was did you think that Lizzie was faking vomiting? And I said that because Dr. Bowen said Abby was hearing Lizzie vomit.  Abby was in her room so she did not see her vomit. Did Lizzie convince Abby through the noises Abby heard through the wall that Lizzie was vomiting, whether she was or wasn't? If you believe Alice Russell then Lizzie didn't really vomit but that doesn't mean she might have been making noises as such which Abby took for that. It might have even been that Lizzie didn't actually vomit but came pretty close, (haven't you ever attempted vomiting, made all the noises but nothing came back up, I have). Therefore what she told Alice is true and what Abby heard was true too. Therefore both Alice and Dr. Bowen could be correct.

I do think that Dr. Bowen's quote referred to Lizzie, not Abby, all the "she's" are consistent with it being Lizzie, i.e. Lizzie was in the next room, Lizzie was up too, and Lizzie commenced to vomit about twelve." Reading that sentence and having it mean Abby doesn't fit.

Also, regarding another post about the prussic acid incident, I don't know why Lizzie wouldn't want Abby to see her going out on Wed. morning.  I think it would be very hard for Lizzie to have snuck back in the house.  If Abby was in the house which she most likely would have been during the day around dinner time when Lizzie if she did go out would have come back, would have seen her either enter the back or front door.  

Dr. Bowen's answer to the inquest question, "Do you recollect what it was you prescribed for her [Abby]?" is confusing with the several references to "she". Perhaps Bowen is saying, "Before that [while Abby was at Bowen's office, before Bowen walked across the street to the Borden house], she [Abby] said Lizzie came down [Lizzie came downstairs on Wednesday morning before Abby went out to see Dr. Bowen], she heard them vomiting [Lizzie heard Abby and Andrew vomiting during the night and said something through the shared, locked bedroom door at that time or said something Wednesday morning or both], I think she was in the next room [Abby told Bowen that Lizzie's room adjoined Abby's and Andrew's room], and she [Lizzie] was up too, and she [this could be Abby or Lizzie] commenced to vomit at the time, about twelve [midnight]."

It is also possible that Abby and Andrew went downstairs to the kitchen, the kitchen sink, and/or the cellar water closet during their overnight vomiting episode(s) and Lizzie "came down," that is Lizzie heard them go downstairs and went down at the same time to see what was going on. It is reasonable to think that Abby and/or Andrew would go downstairs during the time they were being sick to go to the cellar, to clean up at the kitchen sink, and/or to get something from the kitchen to settle their stomachs. The hint that this might have occurred comes from Bowen's inquest testimony; I don't think Lizzie in her inquest testimony said anything about her, Abby, or Andrew going downstairs that night.

I've just read Doug's post, his take on Dr. Bowen's statement makes the most sense.

Going back through Dr. Bowen's testimony on what Abby said, she never mentioned that Lizzie was sick or vomiting all night, just Andrew and herself, so, I don't think the "she commenced to vomit at twelve" was about Lizzie.  Really, someone at the court should have asked to clarify what was said.

Dr. Bowen's Inquest testimony, page 115:

Q. You had not been called that week to the family?
A. No Sir, I had not been called. I went over to see them. The day before, Wednesday morning, about eight o'clock, or before eight, Mrs. Borden came to the door and she was frightened, said she was afraid she was poisoned. I told her to come in. She sat down, and she said the night before about nine o'clock she and her husband commenced to vomit, and vomitted for two or three hours until twelve, I understood.     

Nowhere do I get that Abby heard Lizzie vomit.  Nowhere does Abby state that Lizzie was sick too and vomiting.  Lizzie told Alice that she didn't vomit, why would she lie about it?  Whats to gain by vomiting and then denying it?  Dr. Bowen didn't seem overly concerned about seeing Lizzie when he came over, he just wanted to check on Andrew.  If Lizzie was so sick and vomiting too, why not check on her condition, ask her how she was feeling?  It just doesn't add up.   

All I can say, is thanks Doug.
And PHHEEW!
A Fall River Translator is invaluable!
It's certainly something to think about, that we are not really used to their vernacular.  That is Helpful in our own determinations of what we believe was said/meant.

If Dr. Bowen reported that Andrew and Abby "commenced" to vomit before 9 and continued until 12, then how can you have Abby commencing to vomit at 12?

I am going by all that Dr. Bowen did say at that time, he could have left off an all important word such as "again". As in, "she commenced to vomit again at twelve".  As I had said, I really wish someone would have asked Dr. Bowen for clarification on this.  Perhaps they understood who he meant?

Abby was still sick the next morning, she vomited at Dr. Bowen's office, she may have been vomiting later into the night than Andrew.  We really don't have a blow by blow as to who started vomiting first, if it was simultaneous, synchronized vomiting, or what.

Inquest, Dr. Bowen's testimony, page 115:

Q. What morning was this?
A. Wednesday morning.  I asked her what she had eaten for supper, and she told me.  She said she had eaten some baker's white bread, and she had heard of baker's cream cakes being poisonous, and was afraid that there was something poisonous in the bread that made her vomit.  She said she only ate cake and baker's white bread.  At that time she had a sort of an eructation of vomiting, slightly.  I was afraid she was going to vomit there, I rather got ready for her.  I told her to go home, and told her what to take; and she took it.

Sounds like Abby was belching vomit in his office, yuck.  Dr. Bowen told her to take some castor oil for her vomiting, which I assume she did. And Abby did give Andrew the castor oil too, Lizzie never mentioned taking any herself.

From Lizzie's Inquest testimony, page 85:

Q. The doctor had not given him any medicine that you know of?
A. No, sir; he took some medicine; it was not doctor's medicine; it was what we gave him.

Q. What was it?
A. We gave him castor oil first and then Garfield tea.

Q. When was that?
A. He took the castor oil some time Wednesday.  I think some time Wednesday noon, and I think the tea Wednesday night; Mrs. Borden gave it to him. She went over to see the doctor.    

This is what we know:

That both Abby and Andrew vomitted Tuesday night.

That both Abby and Andrew saw the doctor or he saw them.

That both Abby and Andrew both took some medicine for sickness.

Lizzie tells Alice she did not vomit
Lizzie was not seen by the doctor.
Lizzie (probably) took no medicine.

Andrew probably does not even go out Wednesday...refuses to go to Swansea, and is seen about the yard by Bowen.

Abby is seen at home after 6 pm. by Mrs. Dr. Bowen (probably to find out how she is)-but we do not hear of Abby out Wednesday.

Lizzie goes out for 2 hours to visit Alice.  Alice does not remark that Lizzie may look sick.

It dtill doesn't sound as if Lizzie vomitted.

In the hard copy (paper) of the Inquest there is one word different than my WORD doc. in this exchange:

WORD
Inquest
Bowen
116
....Before that, she said Lizzie came down, she heard them vomiting, I think she was in the next room, and she was up too, and she commenced to vomit at the time, about twelve.

Hard Copy
....Before that, she said Lizzie came down, she heard them vomiting, I think she was in the next room, and she was up too, and she commenced to vomit at that time, about twelve.

--This MAY make a difference, I don't know.

I could not find anything in Dr. Bowen's statement which indicated that Andrew, Abby or Lizzie had gone downstairs, to the kitchen, cellar, to get medicine or to use the sinks to vomit in or clean up in. It is interesting speculation although I don't believe it has to do with Fall River linguistics. 

The only thing Dr. Bowen says about location that night between 9 and 12 is that the people were in adjoining rooms. Hence I would not suppose that any of them went downstairs.  The term "came down" is something a doctor would say about people commencing to be sick. I believe people all over the country used and still do say things like I came down with something, I'm coming down with something when referring to being sick.  So it follows as most natural for me that Dr. Bowen meant that Abby said Lizzie came down with the sickness at 12 (Abby THOUGHT, but didn't know if Lizzie vomited because she could only hear not see Lizzie through the bedroom wall) but she indicated such to Dr. Bowen) which is what he repeated in his testimony. Lizzie actually didn't vomit, true as Alice reported.

If Andrew and Abby commenced to vomit at 9, continued through till 12 then Abby would not have commenced again at 12 because she would still be in the process of being sick, therefore the only other one to commence (which means start) was Lizzie.  Adding words to Dr. Bowen's testimony to make it turn out to mean Abby commenced again because it fits a theory is a bit like fudging.  It doesn't fit the context of his statement.

There doesn't seem much of a mystery here for me.