1. "Lizzie VS. Abby's Relatives"
Posted by Kat on Nov-27th-03 at 2:14 AM

TinaKate has my nose back into the Sourcebook and I noted a section quoting Morse on Lizzie's demeanor Saturday, the day of the funeral from The New York Times, pg. 16, dated Aug. 6, 1892 and the headline is:
"THE FALL RIVER MYSTERY
Looking For the Assassin Of Mr. and Mrs. Borden"

..."Mr. Morse came from the house and talked freely with a group of reporters.  He said it was a terrible thing to be suspected and shadowed as he has been, but he courts the fullest investigation and is anxious and willing to do all that he can to trace the perpetrators of the great crime.*  He said that Miss Lizzie Borden's health was in about the same condition as it was last Thursday afternoon.  She did not mingle with the family to any great extent.  When Mr. Fish of Hartford, a nephew of her stepmother, appeared she gave him a very cool reception."...

--We hear by testimony that Lizzie doesn't have much to do with Abby's half-sister, Mrs. Whitehead
Q.  Were you on congenial terms with them?
A.  Well, I dont know as I was. I never thought they liked me.
Q.  Not on particularly friendly terms then?
A.  No. I always thought they felt above me. (Inq.156)

We know Lizzie named Hiram Harrington as the one man who did not get along with Andrew, and that was the husband of Andrew's only sister.

It seems as if Lizzie alienated Abby's family locally and also now, the Fish's, who lived out of town, and must have despised H. Harrington to name him as her only suspect.
What could be the reason for this and how did she get away wuith such disrespect?

-Aren't funerals for the reason to bring together family in a time of crisis yet Lizzie shunned Mr. Fish...what did he ever do?

*And what did Morse ever do to help in the investigation?

I wonder if there was ANY member of Lizzie's family that she got along with, before or after the murders, other than Emma--and she and Lizzie had a falling out in 1905. 

That's a good point about alienating Emma.
Maybe Lizzie was very territorial and considered step-relatives and in-laws as interlopers?  But why?

my word for it is "distancing"  her calling abby mrs. borden is a clear singular instance of this.  but it appears she wanted them all at a distance?  ambition of lizbeth of maplecroft?

I really think that if it were possible to "divorce" oneself from one's family, Lizzie would have almost certainly done so. But why did she dislike them so much? That must be sad to hate your own family the way she seems to have.

Do you think it had anything to do with money?
I don't know, maybe she had always prepared to be the single most important person in Andrew's life?

Yeah, money probably played a big role in it Kat, you're right. And, as they say, the love of (and I will add, the lust for) money is the root of all evil.  But for some reason my gut tells me it went deeper then money or wanting to be the center of Andrew's attention.

Many knowledgable people have said that love or money is the reason for most murders. To get it or to keep it. Money is almost as necessary to live as air and food and shelter. Don't we all want more than our basic needs?

My experience is that those who were on the outs do not make up at a family funeral, even if they attend. One reported exception was after the burial of Nelson A Rockefeller. His first wife and the widow did embrace. His widow got even by having him quickly cremated and buried, preventing the public rites for a 4-term governor and vice-president.
...
AR Brown suggests Lizzie's naming of Hiram Harrington was a way to point to the man that sheltered WS Borden and WS Bassett, and then tried to sully Lizzie's reputation in that E Porter article.

(Message last edited Nov-28th-03  11:24 AM.)

It almost seems like Lizzie, on purpose, alienated extended family members.  Was she a snob from a young age?  And who did she think she was, anyway?  Her grandfather was poor and she was raised at Ferry Street of all places, close to the warf.
She had judged Abby's family and Andrew's sister's husband and decided they were not worth acknowledging?
Was she planning to oust all family to get at Andrew's money?  Was she inherently jealous of these others?  What was her motive?  Just a brat?

That one is hard to say. As I said in my first post in this forum, I am new to the Borden case and am a very long way from being able to call myself an expert. However I have formed a few opinions, one of which is that Lizzie's charactor was rather weak. She belittled her step-mom--the only mother she'd known--and her step-mom's family, put down her father's brother-in-law during a legal proceeding, is alledged to have commited double 187*, and after all that, with almost the whole damn town against her, she pisses off the one person (Emma) who had stuck with her through it all to the point that they never speak to each other again.

Sorry for being so long-winded.




*187 is the CA penal code section for homicide

Kat: I remember talking with Florence Brigham about Lizzie's alienation of all those around her. It seems to have gone on well after the murders, when she did the same thing to Emma. By extension, she did the same thing to all of Fall River, including Mary Brigham. She did have a few post trial supporters, but managed to push them all away by her eccentric behavior. The only two that managed to continue to stay close to Lizzie were Grace Hartley Howe and Helen Leighton. I have always thought Ms. Leighton was probably rather syncophantic, since Lizzie was a large contributor to the Animal Rescue League, but Mrs. Howe strikes me as a strong personality. Why Lizzie drove everyone away has always been an intriguing part of the puzzle for me. Could it be simply that Lizzie wanted to be somebody--(Lizbeth of Maplecroft)--else than who she was, and all of those people reminded her of the person she wanted no connection with? 

You have a good point there, Stuart.  To me that sounds like a very good reason for Lizzie to drop people in her life.  She is now Lizbeth of Maplecroft, a vivacious woman of substance who lives on the hill, not dumpy Lizzie Borden of Second Street.  It must have been difficult to try and be someone new with all of these old friends who knew who she really was and how she really was too.   

Stuart and Susan, both of you have a good point.    I wish I'd thought of that. She most likely sought Nance O'Neil's friendship for the same reeason.  Nance was a woman of the world as Lizzie/Lizbeth saw it, and by becoming Nance's friend (or lover, if you believe those stories) Lizbeth was able to live--in her mind, at least--the life she always wanted to. PLus, because Nance was a touring actress, it was less difficult for them to go their separate ways

I just spoke to my baby sister (the black sheep)
she was crying and  so upset our brother Jimmy didn't go to see
her and she didn't get to meet Molly. OYE, she is saying she will
never ever speak to him again.
Lets face it ALL families are dysfunctional, I know mine is, I wonder how really bad the Bordens were?  And how bad feelings
festered all around...     

Yes I see the pattern you are extending out into Lizzie's post-trial days.  It's good that is brought up.  It gives the whole picture.
But what about the girl, Lizzie, who moved to Second Street at age 12?
She was a nobody Borden in a town full of nobody Bordens.
How did this start?
Did it start from greed?
Did she early on decide to be more important to Andrew, the source of the money, and drive other's away to keep him in her pocket?
Or was she basically insecure and therefore put off her casual friends after a time;  was she each time re-inventing herself when she went thru a change?
Or was she so superficial that she did not care about keeping friends?
Something is driving her...

(Message last edited Nov-29th-03  10:07 PM.)

I think avarice was a big part of it, Lizzie probably looked around and saw that the name Borden carried a certain cachet in town and she wanted to be one of those Bordens.

I try to step back in time and stand in Lizzie's high button boots to get at where her head was at.  She was a woman from a moderately wealthy family, her source of income was her father, if he took it away from her, where would she be?  I get that there was a lot of fear driving Lizzie's actions, fear of losing her place with Andrew, fear of losing the money to Abby's side of the family.  Yes, there were alot of women working at the time, but, I think of society's view of Lizzie and her place in it.  She did work, but, it was all charitable work.  Could you imagine the buzz about town; Andrew Borden's daughter working, for money?!  So, I don't think that avenue was open to Lizzie, she was stuck where she was, trying to balance her home life and her social life.

It does sound as though Lizzie reinvented herself through time, from being that shy, quiet girl in school to stepping into society.  She made friends that would benefit her position in life, people that carried clout in Fall River.  Alice Russell does sound like she was a true friend as Lizzie couldn't really get anything from knowing her, so, it was a friendship for friendship's sake.  All of those people that benefitted Lizzie and were there for her during the trial were let go afterwards, they had served their purpose and were no longer useful to Lizzie.  She couldn't get anything more from knowing them. So, I do see a certain amount of shallowness there in Lizzie. 

I am leaning toward those same sentiments.
Maybe Lizzie was driving off relatives from two-fold reasons.  Keeping Andrew and his money to herself and because she was nearly unlovable.
The *women* around her as she grew supposedly gave info on Lizzie's character in an Interview:

from The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook, David Kent, pgs. 14 & 15: 

"THE BOSTON HERALD

LIZZIE BORDEN

Her School and Later Life - A Noble Woman, Though Retiring

Fall River,  Aug. 6.- It is the men who have, since the murder, been accorded the space to talk to Lizzie A. Borden, the younger daughter, during the past few days.
.......
As a child she was of a very sensitive nature, inclined to be non-communicative with new acquaintances, and this characteristic has tenaciously clung to her all through life, and has been erroneously interpreted.

Her sister, being older, was a constant guide and an idolized companion.

An unusual circumstance is that of her practically having no choice of friends until she attained womanhood.

At the usual age she was sent to the Morgan street school, embracing primary and grammer grades.

Her school days were perhaps unlike most girls in this lack of affiliation with her fellow pupils.

As a scholar she was not remarkable for brilliancy, but she was conscientious in her studies and with application always held a good rank in her class.

She entered the high school when about 15 or 16 years old.  It was then held in a wooden building on the corner of June and Locust sts., which was removed when the present mammoth structure was presented to the city.

Her life was uneventful during the few years following her leaving school.  She abandoned her piano music lessons because, although making encouraging progress, she conceived the idea that she was not destined to become a good musician.

If she could not excel in this accomplishment she did not wish to persue the study, and so her friends heard her play thereafter but little.
.......
She was, however, a girl with anything but an enthusiastic idea of her own personal attainments.

She thought people were not favorably disposed toward her and that she made a poor impression.

This conduced to the acceptance of this very opinion among church people, and consequently the young woman was to some extent avoided by the young women of the church.

There was a remarkable change in her some five years ago and at that time she first began to fraternize with church people.

Then, of course, when she was thoroughly understood, when the obnoxiously retiring manner was dissipated and the responsive nature of the girl came to view, she became at once popular and then came the acquisition of the friends who today sound her praises."

..............
Lizzie sounds like she was alienated from an early age from her peers, or at least from children similar to her in circumstance.
How did this happen?
Was Emma the influence which taught Lizzie snobbery?  Snobbery can be a disguise for a shy, retiring nature, and also a disguise for a nature which contains no compassion or empathy.

Apparently there was a change in Lizzie *5 years ago*- which would be about 1887, which is when she and Emma gained the Ferry Street property and became *Landlords*.  In this way, maybe this is a clue that status to Lizzie was in owning real estate, and not by anything she could accomplish on her own.
She would continue to *get* things by takng them?  What she considered her due?
BTW:  When the girls got that house, Hiram & Lurana were living there and they moved to Freetown.  That might infer they wanted no Borden girl as their landlord.  It also might have given Lizzie her first rush of power to see Andrew's sister leave town.  Maybe she lost respect for Hiram at this time?
She, a girl, can own a house but Hiram cannot provide for Aunt Lurana?



(Message last edited Nov-30th-03  5:33 PM.)

i've never been able to get past lizzie as one who is a social climber, lacking genuine feeings for people............oh, but then she's got her animals and her bird feeders and her pet cemetery and so forth.  what's frustrating is that i'd have to know her to be sure. and i think i would have known.

I think we can pin-point the stages Lizzie went through to get where she was at the time of the murders.
If she was constantly dreaming and doing things to *better* herself, then we can find the activities which formed her.*
First up would be moving out of that Ferry Street house.  Well, maybe Emma being away at school was the first turn. (c.1865?-1869?)
Then the move to single family home (1872)
Then running water installed with 2 sinks and 3 fawcetts & water closet (1874)
Then Lizzie goes to High School
Then Morse comes to live for a year. (1875)

*I'm not including Abby as step-mother yet because that took a while for Lizzie to resent her, I think.

Lizzie went to a "grammer" school? Sounds like some school for elderly French ladies, non? Grandmere?
Watch them grammar!!!

Some people think Morse coming that year and Lizzie quitting school are intertwinned ewvents.  Some give it a weird weight in Lizzie's life.

I have a news source and a person source which says Lizzie loved to give gifts when she was Lizbeth of Maplecroft.
I am reading Paul Burrell's version of the life of Diana, and he talked about her giving of gifts.
He said Diana claimed she would rather give gifts than receive them because *with giving there are no strings attached*.

If one contemplates this state of mind, one might think it is easier to give and stay aloof, or just to be there in the moment, and then move on.
Some gifts Diana gave were not bought by her but given to her and she gave those away.  That doesn't seem quite in spirit with the gesture.
I think giving a lot of gifts can look like trying to buy acceptance.  I think that goes along with the low self-esteem I have designated as a possible trait of Lizzie's in an earlier post here.

I love the posts on this thread and trying to get into Lizzie's
mind.  Lizzie a social climber definitely,  frustrated at every
step of the ladder, yet such a strong will she had.  I wonder if
she became embarrassed of Emma once they moved to Maplecroft.  She
was probably embarrassed of her stepmother always. Her only hope was
convincing Dad to do what she wanted and apparently he refused? 
Andrew showed more loyalty to Abby his wife.  Back then, that is
what men did!  I remember my folks as just one unit, and sometimes as a kid I remember feeling jealousy because I wished my Dad was all mine! With 2 other sisters and a brother, this was a far off fantasy of course
but I do remember the feelings.  My Mom and Dad are in a nursing home and Ma so far gone with Alz., yet still Ma comes first, same as always.  Lizzie probably couldn't bear this because Abby was not her REAL mother.  We all respect my Dad for caring for our Mom so well, but
I'm sure Lizzie just resented Andrew showing any affection at all to Abby.  That Ferry St. property was such a small gesture yet it must have started the festering.....  If Lizzie found a will giving Abby anything else, Yikes!       

"It is better to give than to receive."
Because it implies the giver is richer and can spare material things.

That is a good point about Lizzie maybe being a
bit snooty & Emma didn't get herself a fancy new
wardrobe & everything that seemed to mean so much
to Lizzie -- maybe that is why she left Maplecroft -
Lizzie had Nance & who could compare to an actress
even if she had wanted to? I don't spose I'm the
only person who has family who act ashamed of other
members of the family -- either because they don't
act or dress well enough. If Emma was ashamed of
Lizzie after the murders or after the Nance scandal
she may have decided to be ashamed of her right back.

There's an implication here that the one who gives is really getting.
Getting approval, getting noticed.
It's a shallow attempt to buy friends one can then discard.  There is no attachment when one gives.  The beholden is the receiver.
Money or no money.

There was a woman on Dr. Phil who was talked into coming on the show by her family because she was breaking her husbands and her bank account buying and giving so many presents to strangers.  When she came to the show:  She Brought Gifts!
He gave them back.
She was buying acceptance.

It turned out that she was craftier than thought.  She seemed so sweet.  She always said "Yes" and she always agreed.  Dr. Phil made her realize that she was being a victim and loving every minute of it.
She resented saying yes to everyone but she swallowed that to be *nice*.
As I said, that is low self-esteem, no matter how strong a person seems.

So let me know if you have ever given anything of value to a non-realtive? If to a relative like a niece, nephew,or cousin?

Nobody sees anything wrong with gifts to children?