1. "Where the Devil WAS Andrew, Anyway?"
Posted by Edisto on May-25th-03 at 9:04 PM

I was getting ready to respond to somebody else's post earlier in the day, and I began looking at Rebello's account of events on the morning of the murders.  I guess it had never occurred to me before that there was considerable disagreement about when Andrew left the house to go downstreet.  I recalled that Lizzie had said he left around 10:00 and wasn't gone "so very long."  Supposedly he got a shave, which would have taken a few minutes, although I'm not sure there's any real proof that he did that.  Apparently the source is a newspaper story, and we all know how unreliable those are.  According to Rebello (page 574), Mrs. Churchill saw Andrew leaving his house for downstreet about 9:00.  That was about an hour earlier than Lizzie said he left!  Anyway, several people saw Andrew in various business establishments around 9:30, so Lizzie's account likely isn't correct. It was roughly an hour and 45 minutes later that Andrew was seen (by Mrs. Kelly) back at the Borden house. Of course, he might have been back at the house for some time; apparently she didn't actually see him enter his yard from the street. On the one hand, if Lizzie's account was correct, Andrew probably wouldn't have had enough time to do the things he did downstreet, and on the other hand, if he was gone an hour longer than that, where the devil was he all that time?  (Yes, I know there are several accounts of where he went, which are diagrammed in Rebello, but would those errands have taken an hour and forty-five minutes?)

i've always looked at that as lizzie's way of trying to place the murders closer together.  she has father at home till 10, when he was seen shortly after 9 at the bank.  it's as though she's using father as an alibi for her innocence in abby's murder, which took place shortly after 9.  i know what you're talking about though.  that's the best i've been able to make of it. as far as how he filled his time, i don't know how long his meetings or conversations would have taken. 

One problem is that Rebello is a little off-base on this matter.  He says that Mrs. Churchill testified to having seen Andrew leaving for downstreet, but that isn't what she said.  I went over the trial transcript last night, and what she actually said was that she saw Andrew in his own yard, near the side steps, about 9:00.  She wasn't asked if he appeared to be dressed to go downstreet, so he could have been outside on some other errand.  Obviously he didn't leave at 10:00, as Lizzie said, because others saw him in the business district earlier than that.

(Message last edited May-26th-03  8:59 AM.)

You're right about that.

Maybe Andrew was coming back from cleaning the blood off himself in the barn.  Abby was dispatched around 9 in my guesstimation.
If it's not known if he was yet dressed for downstreet, then he could still be cuffless and collar & tie-less....

His pockets revealed that he had a fairly large sum of cash on him. I remember someone on the old board speculating that he may have stopped somewhere to collect some rents. No renter came forward though to admit that.

I remember we also discussed whether he had taken the cash from the safe when he went upstairs (if he ever did go up) upon his return.

From Trial, Andrew had $81.65 -

4 x $10
5 x $5
1 x $2
11 x $1
2 x $0.50
3 x $0.25
6 x $0.10
5 x $0.05
5 x $0.01

I made a note of this because it took me back in time to when my Dad did a cash float everyday for his bookstore.  This looks like a standard cash float.

Andrew was a walking store.

Well, Rebello has a diagram showing the places that Andrew supposedly went that morning.  Unless he collected rent at one of the places he visited on other business, there don't appear to be any stops for collections.  (Of course, the diagram, like the reference to Mrs. Churchill's testimony, may be a bit off.)  It seems that Mrs. Churchill's testimony, far from proving that Andrew left the house at 9:00, serves to prove that he was still at home about that time.  

That's really cool info, Tina-Kate.  Thanks!

I read that Andrew made a DEPOSIT that day.

I'll have to double-check that.

I suppose I should amend that to say he was a "walking cash register".

Andrew went to (at least) 3 banking institutions that AM --

Union Savings (which also had "National Union Bank" on the same premises)

First National Bank (which had the BMC Durfee Safe Deposit & Trust Co. in the same room).

(info from cashiers Hart, Burrill & Cook's Trial testimonies)

I was thinking Andrew having been laid up sick, he may have gone somewhere especially to make that cash float.

I see a lot of my Dad in Andrew...both seem to be creatures of habit & liked to stick to routines religiously, esp in matters of business.  Andrew probably liked having an organized float of cash in order to always have correct change, be able to make change @ any time.  A habit probably acquired early in his business experience & one he stuck with.

(Message last edited May-26th-03  11:16 PM.)

Did you find he made a deposit?

It's a wonder Andrew was never mugged, especially if he had his route & routine.  And it's a wonder THAT was not the motive to kill him, mugged on the street for his cash...or at least made to look that way.
AND not to rob his person or house after killing him at home.
Someone was obviously NOT in need of money.
Our dear friend Lizzie supposedly showed her bankbook to Mrs. Brigham saying *See my bank balance?  Why should I kill him?*
Well....

(Message last edited May-27th-03  7:41 AM.)

I just did a quick check of the Trial.  None of the cashiers/tellers were specific about their business with Andew that AM.  John Burrill, cashier for National Union Bank (Trial, page 166) said --

Q - Did Mr Borden have any connection with your bank?

A - He was a stock-holder and depositor.

I suppose saying he was a depositor might give the impression he was just making deposits there; but I think that's just a general term for someone with an account.  (Banks hope all you'll do is make deposits!)

I think it's safe to assume all the banking business might have taken up a fair bit of time.  Everything was done by hand in those days & they weren't so rushed.  Also, it was testified that Andrew stopped & talked shop with others in the banks as well.

I'm thinking mugging wasn't so common in those days, esp somewhere like FR.  Easy enough to mug Andrew in some out of the way area, esp because of his age & infirmities (truss, queasy stomach), & if you knew his routine & where the areas of weakness might be.  But he kept pretty much to the busy streets where there was a lot of traffic, & in broad daylight.

Yeah, Liz's little display of the bank book doesn't do much for me, either.

The times are just estimates after the fact. How many men had a watch in those days? Mostly depended on the public clocks on sidewalks; old pictures show them.

Another reason why reason will never solve this case 100%? One lawyer said that anyone can review a trial transcript and come up with a contrary verdict. But it doesn't matter; the decision was made. The printed word does not carry the tone, the demeanor of the witness, and the other things that make a jury believe or disbelieve a witness.

Once again, I do not agree with estimates on the devalued currency. If $10 was the average factory laborer's pay, then $80 is EIGHT times that. IF $500 is comparable, then Andy had about $4000 in cash. Remember, there was no income tax then, etc.

The inflation calculator estimates $81.65 in 1892 would be roughly the equivalent of $1,570.01 in 2002 dollars.

At the Prelim., these guys gave the amount of time Andrew was there with them:
5 minutes estimated by Hart & Burrell
10 minutes, Cook
Exactly 9 minutes, mind you, Clegg  (our *proper Brit*)
Shortsleeves and Mather sort of agree on an average of 3 minutes.
One says he stayed 2-3 minutes, the other 3-4, so I picked 3.
They were asked specifically about Thursday.  As to Andrew's *usual routine*  maybe that normally took longer.
The Prelim. was so soon after the crimes, I do rely somewhat on the amount of time remembered by these guys as to how long Andrew was within their ken.
We have a gap from Churchill to Hart/Burrell which is odd.  That gap is about 30 minutes.
The other gap is between Cook & Clegg, which was 25 minutes.
These are unaccounted for in sworn testimony at Prelim.
I know there were *other* sightings of Andrew, but not sworn, so I did not use them.

If anyone can fill in gap times with sworn statements, please help out here?

Witness Statements, not sworn., 29+
I did find the deposit, though.
Thanks a bunch for looking, Tina-Kate, I then knew where it wasn't.  That's always helpful!

"Fall River, August 7, 1892.
Andrew J. Borden visited the Union Saving Bank about half past nine A. M. Thursday, and explained to Mr. A. C. Hart the reason of his (Mr. Borden’s) inability to attend a meeting of the Board of Directors which be said was because he did not feel well. He remained but a few minutes, and went north from the bank. He was alone when he came and went away from the Bank.

Mr. Everett Cook of the First National Bank gives the following statement. 'Andrew J. Borden came to this Bank somewhere about 10 o’clock; it might be as early as 9.50. He does his business with us. That morning he deposited a check which was made payable to him by the Troy Mills. While making this deposit, Mr. William Carr came in. They talked together a few minutes, and Mr. Borden left the Bank. He was here not more than ten minutes. While he was here I noticed that be looked tired and sick; knowing him so well, I could not help noticing that he looked real sick. I did not speak to him about it, because I thought he might consider it none of my business. He was alone when he came and went away from the bank.'

John T. Burrill, Cashier of the Union National Bank makes the following statement. 'Andrew J. Borden came into the Bank, as near as we can place the time, about ten o’clock. He went to the rear of the Bank, and looked in the rooms, probably for Mr. Hart; and finding no one, went out, remarking something about calling again. He did not call again. He was alone.'

Edith Francis, clerk for C. C. Cook makes the following statement. 'I happened to be looking out of the window of our office in Mr. Borden’s Block on South Main street Thursday morning, shortly after ten o’clock; and saw Mr. Borden going south on So. Main street, walking on the East side of the street. He looked up at the building, but kept right on. He was alone at the time.' "

--Oh, and there might have been that shave Edisto posited as possible.
--There's also an unofficial sighting of Andrew by a witness in Jenning's notes in Proceedings, Hip-bath Collection:

"e.  Mr. Benjamin T. Hart--saw Mr.  (B?) ringing bell when I went down to Pleasant St.  I saw time by City Hall clock and it was 10:40.  He rang doorbells both sides, no one came to door. "




(Message last edited May-28th-03  12:50 AM.)