1. "Abby Borden"
Posted by audrey on Feb-5th-04 at 1:50 PM

I was thinking about Abby today when I was eating 2 day leftover chili.  It made me think of the mutton.  Many authors have made a big deal of her corpulence-- I started wondering how in the heck she got so well nourished eating such crap for food!

I remembered the parts where Brigitte said she had thought about returning to Ireland but "Mrs Borden told her she would be too lonely" so she remained.  Also the X-servant flinging herself upon Abby's grave site....

I started thinking and wondering about her-- and what she was like.

She probably married Andrew Borden happily-- thinking finally that she was going to have some happiness in her life.  Not so.  She was little more than a maid, living in an average (at best) home and dealing with 2 stepdaughters who obviously hated her-- and for basically foolish reasons.  Her darling sister, whom she adored-- she saw perhaps 1-2 times per month.  I imagine she wished she had remained a spinster!

Then I got to thinking about the loyalty of her servants-- and how Lizzie eventually treated her servants at Maplecroft.  (She may have been nice to "Maggie"-- but I do not think she was nearly as kind to her and she was to her eventual servants)  This lead me to wonder if Lizzie began to treat her servants so well in an "anything you can do I can do better" mindset.  (ha ha Abby-- they like me too!)

I have read many theories about women who are overweight, that it is hereditary, slow metabolism, etc.  There is one interesting theory that may apply to Abby in her situation, some women gain weight as a shield against the unpleasantness in their lives.  The theory I had read on that pertained to women that had been abused, raped, etc.  I think that living with Lizzie and Emma certainly qualified as abuse!

Andrews a wild card in this situation as we don't know for certain how he treated Abby.  He may have been warm and tender with her, or he may have been indifferent to her.  Abby's complaints about her treatment by her stepdaughters may have fallen on deaf ears with Andrew and I don't think she would confide in Bridget.  Its been said that Abby was a close-mouthed woman by people, never spoke of her troubles at home, sounds like she may not have had an ally.  So, perhaps that may be a reason for her being overweight?  This is just one of so many aspects of Abby that I mull over. 

I get the feeling Abby wasn't well regarded by Andrew.  I do not think they had a romantic union-- remember-- he was mad at her for consulting Dr Bowen and stated "no money of mine will pay for it".  Despite the fact he gave her sister the portion of the 1/2 house, I do not think he was kind or tender to her.

I think he did little to change her feelings of being an outsider in the family-- but I also think he trusted her-- She must have been confused much of the time!

You can read "Your Fat is NOT Your Fault" for a realistic discussion of this topic. Also 1/3 of the book contains recipes.
If you sit around the house and don't exercise, your metabolism will slow down, and you will gain weight from unexpended calories. Or if you are continually snacking during the day.
To lose weight simply walk more (or do other exercises). Read the item in today's news. Also, women are naturally designed to have more fatty tissue. Too much carbohydrates will do this too. Be sure to eat enough protein. The author states "everything you read about dieting in the magazines is wrong!".
Because the magazines have their own agenda for advertising weight-loss plans. (I found this book to be very impressive.)

Lillian Russell was the ideal Belle of the day, not Twiggy.
(Anyone remember her?)

Twiggy or Lillian Russell?

Even Lucy was a size 14! Back then it was normal to be womanly with
curves and all.  I got the best advise from a co-worker, she was about
65 then (80+ now) "i get on the scale every morning and if I have gained a pound or two, I just don't eat much till the scale goes back"
DUH simple advise is the best and I follow her advise, I know my best
weight is 150 (I'm tall) so I just get on the scale everyday and want
to see that 150.  After Christmas it went up to 155, ugh, I ate salad only for weeks.  I get plenty of exercise but those xmas goodies are BAD.  I think Abby probably just didn't care because noone cared for
her, food was probably her only comfort.

I think you may be right, Susan, in your theory of the relationship between Abby being close-mouthed to out-siders as to troubles in the home and over-compensated by indulging in food in that same home.
Close-mouthed outside, open mouth inside.  Interesting!

As to Lizbeth and her servants- they were probably comfortable for her to be around them- she paid them and they did not judge her.
It's sort of like buying friends, I think.
Lizbeth as a true society lady should never have been so familiar with the servants.
I don't think it was because she was basically democratic- I think it was because she was lonely at times, and they were there.
That's pretty sad having servants and their families as her friends, when she really wanted to live much larger than that.

I, too, think Abby was "eating to forget."  I see no warmth in those flinty eyes of Andrew's, and I imagine her attempts at ingratiating herself with the girls always went off course.  I think Emma hated her more, in the beginning, at least, because she could remember Sarah. As Lizzie's standin Mama, I think Emma trained her to detest Abby. Ever notice how, once you get off on the wrong foot with someone, you'll just keeping getting more and more hopeless at making them like you?  I imagine Abby, by 1892, having fallen into a role that even she might have detested--highly irritating and maybe giving tit for tat. Dysfunctional families grow slowly and insidiously worse and worse with time, and EVERYONE participates one way or another-- or gets out through physical or emotional distancing.

--Lyddie

It is tempting to try to break through the stereotypes and imagine what the characters in the Borden story were "really" like; I do this myself sometimes when pondering the case, for example, what were their personalities like at home, how did they interact with each other, how were they with their friends, and so on. But I think we also have to be careful about drawing conclusions that we don't have real evidence for. The descriptions we have of Andrew and Abby that were provided by real people (family, friends, neighbors, acquaintances, testimony) who knew them provide much less than complete pictures. What we know of the Borden murders is rooted in what happened on August 4, 1892, and we are looking back to that day. The causes of what happened that day are based on what was going on during all the days before it and for those days we have many more questions than answers.

I was remembering that this is something Lizzie said about Wednesday morning whereas Dr. Bowen said she went upstairs when he came and he didn't see Abby while he was there.  Lizzie could be saying anything and we need to choose whether we believe this story.

But people do have instincts about the characters and that can be pretty valid when they base it on all the information and then make that intuitive 'leap,'

If you weigh yourself during the day, you'll see fluctuations.
Its not the weight, its the volume!!!
Fat has more volume than muscle. Correct measurement is in air and then in water (displacement of volume). Archimedes' "eureka"?

I don't disagree with you, but eating must have been one of her few pleasures. Even if left over swordfish(?).

Kat, your remark prompted me to post Dr. Bowen's account, which gives a completely more genial picture of Andrew (Rebello, p. 68) On Wednesday, ". . . I went over to see Mr. Borden.  I found him reclining on the sofa in the sitting room.  I asked him how he was, and if he thought anything poisoned him.  He laughed and said he guessed there was not very much the matter with him."

So, Bowen could be speaking well of the dead; Lizzie could be lying; Andrew could act one way before family and another before outsiders.  No matter what, he doesn't appear to have chased Bowen off the place as so many writers would have it.

--Lyddie

Hello, first time poster here.  I think that Victoria Lincoln's description of Abby is probably pretty accurate: "A lonely self-pitying glutton...who wanted nothing more than peace and quiet in which to eat her way through her living death".  The poor woman seems to have had no social life at all, except for the occasional dinner invitation from her sister, and no interests or activities.  Although Andrew was probably grim and silent to live with under the best of circumstances, the real source of misery for her was the tension generated by her unyielding stepdaughters.

For years, she must have longed for the day when Emma and Lizzie would marry and leave home and she must have been sadly disappointed when it became clear that this just wasn't going to happen.  She must have been resigned to being stuck with them forever.  Today, she would probably be diagnoised as severely depressed. 

Abby seems to me to the truly innocent victim. I don't think Andrew cared for her--e just wanted a free housemaid.  Emma and Lizzie hated her guts. Even though Bridget is said to have felt more loyality towards her then she did for the other members of the household, Bridget was still the maid, and Irish so, it would not have seemed proper to Abby to confide in her.

Audry's comment about the food at the Bordens' being crap, yet Abby getting "well-nourished" from eating it reminded me of a George Carlin routine called "Fussy Eater," in which Carlin descrides not liking certain foods because of their appearence. He then says:

"Of course some people will eat anything, no matter how it looks. I
  saw guys like that in the Army on the chow line.
  'What's that? Never mind, just gimme a whole lot of it!'
  'That's rat's asshole, Dave.'
  'Still makes one helluva fondue!'"

Hello!
Welcome to the Forum.
Quoting Lincoln does something to me.  It's not quite a flag anymore but I would hope to ameliorate her subjective opinion with some facts and then we can decide.

-We know Abby probably meets up with Mrs. Dr. Bowen , maybe at the shops in the forenoon. (Hip-bath collection, & Prelim)
-We know Mrs. Southard Miller was a good friend of Abby's so they must have spent some time together. (Sourcebook et.al.)
-We know Mrs. Whitehead said that Abby came over there a lot. (Inquest)
-We know she shopped almost every day for the food.  I suppose to keep it fresher, especially in the summer. (Inquest)
-We know too that Abby visited at the house of Rescomb Case quite a lot,  (Knowlton Papers, 105)
-We know in the summers she is used to going to the farm in Swansea.

Abby was rather nice-looking upon her marriage and seemed to favor Sarah.  I would think it might have taken a while for Abby to end up overweight and 64.  As Edisto once remarked- Victorian Gentlemen liked some meat on their wives and did not savour the youth culture as society does so much today.

Also, if one loves, they see their mate thru rose-coloured glasses and as they grow old together they have a tendency to still see the *girl* they married.  I've noticed this in long-lived marriages.  I don't know what Andrew felt for Abby- but this is as possible as Lincoln's biased picture, I think- or maybe something in between?
........
There is the report of Mrs. Andrew Borden working with the "Y", but we have argued this because there were a few *Andrew Bordens* in Fall River at the same time.  I think the consensus was that it likely was our Abby:  Harry has found that Emma & Lizzie donated money to the Y in their lifetimes and Emma left them some in her will.  The "Y" may have been a charitable concern of all our Borden women.

"Report from the First Annual of the Women's Auxiliary

The Women's Auxiliary of the Y.M.C.A. held its first annual meeting yesterday afternoon which was largely attended. This branch of the association has contributed largely to its success and has been untiring in its efforts to promote the work which has been undertaken.

Mrs. Norman E. BOrden, the president, tendered her resignation but her executive ability and efficiency were too highly appreciated by her associates and they refused to entertain the idea of her withdrawal. Consequently she consented to serve another term and all were reelected. Interesting reports of various topics then followed the election. They are as follows:

Membership by Mrs. Andrew J. Borden

Social by Mrs. George Stowell

Rooms by Mrs. B.J. Handy

Devotional by Mrs. R.K. Remington

Visitations of the Sick by Mrs. E.T. Marvel

The exercises were interspersed with vocal music by Ida F. Ferry, Mrs. R.K. Remington, and Mrs. D.A. Chapin.

The general secretary in a few brief word expressed the appreciation of the association of the help rendered by the Auxiliary after which the meeting adjourned for a social hour during which chocolate and cake were served by the social committee.

Later on it is possible that the receptions which have been so successful will be repeated."

....... 
Apparently the Handy's and the Borden's at least had more than a passing acquaintance. From Rebello, page 12:

"Mrs. Susan E. Handy, wife of Dr. Benjamin Handy, was interviewed by the The Fall River Evening News. She said, 'I have been a frequent visitor at the Borden home during the last fifteen years and I never saw anybody more kind both to Mr. and Mrs. Borden than Lizzie and Emma.' "

Sorry to overload you on your first post.
As I say I am reacting to Lincoln - with facts- so I sincerely hope you don't mind 

I just made this for us.



(Message last edited Feb-8th-04  3:58 PM.)

Although it may have offered an insight to FR and it's way of thinking, I found the Lincoln book to be little more than a 317 page self assurance of her and her families' social position.

I was thinking along the lines of *self-serving*- to describe Lincoln's hatchet job on the Bordens.
You said it rightly, I think.

It is interesting that among the group of friends Lizzie would have vacationed with at Dr. Handy's cottage in Marion, MA, in early August 1892 were Louise Holmes Handy; Louise O. Remington; Mabel H. Remington; and Jennie Stowell (Rebello pp. 64-65). Among the women at the YMCA Auxiliary meeting cited by Kat were Mrs. A.J. Borden; Mrs. George Stowell; Mrs. B.J. Handy; and Mrs. R.K. Remington. Possibly daughters and mothers or other close relatives?

I agree, Michael, that the girls were very probably a source of misery to Abby.
I actually think it's possible that Abby got out more than Emma.  We have no real anecdotes of Emma going out shopping or doing charitable work, or even interested in getting dresses made in the same spring in which the Bedford Cord was made.

It's almost creepy picturing Emma loitering around the Borden home with a nasty disposition or just giving the cold shoulder to Abby.
Abby might have thought that girl was the bane of her existence!
I do wonder why the girls did not have suitors or maybe did not encourage them?

Sarah and Abby are of the same type, aren't they?  Maybe Sarah would have gone on to weigh 250 or more had she lived.

--Lyddie

(Message last edited Feb-8th-04  10:39 PM.)

I think Emma made it hard for Lizzie to have any other interests besides lallygagging her...

There is a lot more to Emma than we will ever know-- And of all the cast of characters, Emma is the one I would like to know more about.

Was her estrangement of Lizzie based on what she truly felt as unbearable circumstances at Maplecroft OR the fact that Lizzie was no longer tugging at her skirt?

A lot of people and writings have described Lizzie as manipulative-- If so- she learned at "mommy Emma's" knee.

Good eye, Doug!  It would be a remarkable coincidence if they were not closely related.  Do you suppose the other Y moms started to watch their backs?

--Lyddie

I agree about Emma. She's even more the sphinx than Lizzie. That's one reason I find it hard to conceive of Emma being part of a conspiracy: everyone would have something at stake except her--she's out of town and has no suspicious connections.  Why would Lizzie agree to something that would place her under Emma's thumb?  BUT I can imagine Emma grooming young Lizzie, and goading her into something without appearing to know what that something might lead to. . . . Kind of a Lady Macbeth with clean hands.

--Lyddie

I'm sure that Lizzie at least would have welcomed attentions from a serious suitor.  Even if she really didn't want to marry and leave home (itself a topic for endless debate), it's always nicer to be able to think that you were asked and that you declined, rather than to know that you never had a choice.  I think the problem was that very few men would have been acceptable to Andrew.

Tight-fisted and suspicious, Andrew would have been very wary of fortune hunters.  Can't you just hear him saying to the girls, "Why do you think that fellow's sniffing around you?  He's after my money!".  Before Andrew would accept any man as a possible son-in-law, he would have to be certain that the young man was from a Yankee family as old and respectable as the Bordens; that he had an inheritance or income large enough to ensure that he wasn't a fortune hunter; and that he was as serious, hard-working and thrify as Andrew was in his youth.

The problem is that a young man rich and eligible enough to satisfy Andrew wouldn't need come courting one of the Borden girls.  He could have his pick of prettier young ladies from more agreeable families.  Who in his right mind would saddle himself with the Bordens as in-laws unless he was a fortune hunter?

And then of course, given the strange dynamics of the Borden family, it's possible that Andrew would never have let his daughters escape from his control, even (or especially) if the opportunity for a happy marriage to an eligible man presented itself.

Likewise-- I do not think either Emma or Lizzie were ever tutored in the ways of "gaining" the attention of a  man.

I can not imagine Abby sitting them down and instructing them in the art of clever conversation and the art of the coquette.  From all reports, they did not even attend functions and activities where they would meet men-- suitable or not.


Was Lizzie meant to rob the cradle and marry a Chinese Sunday school student?  Were there are men in the WCTU or in the Fruit and Flower Mission?  No. 

Do you suppose the lack of a debut or any kind of social help from either Andrew or Abby could have been part of the souring toward them? Rich though he was, Andrew's lack of generosity was well known, so her prospects as an heiress would have been unimpressive at a time when men still expected wives to bring something (besides their delectable selves) to a marriage.

--Lyddie

I have been looking at that photo Kat made of Mrs B.  I and II.

It could be the same woman-- at relative youth and years later.

Somehow Sarah looks reckless and spoiled and Abby looks mature and grounded.
Maybe Andrew had had the best of both worlds.
Sarah fiesty in their youth and Abby dependable in middle age.

It has been bugging me since I saw the photo of a youthful Abby who she reminded of....

I finally figured it out...

She looks (to me) like the woman who played Ellen O'Hara in Gone With the Wind.  (Barbara O'Neil)

You're right, she does look like Ellen!  Kat, do you have pictures of EVERYTHING?!

--Lyddie

For some reason I am very happy to know that in her youth Abby was attractive.

In that photo she is undeniably lovely.

Under English Law the property of a wife became the husband's after marriage (as far as I know). You can review the life of Alice Roosevelt Longworth. Her millionaire husband squandered his fortune and left her nearly destitute, according to one biography.

English law regarding a husband's right to own any property of his wife's changed when Parliment enacted the Married Women's Property Act.  I'm not sure of the exact date (late 1870s or early 1880s?) but it was before the time period we're talking about.  Women in England were then allowed to retain and control the bulk of their own assets.

In any case, I don't think English law would have any bearing on the Bordens in Massachusetts.  To the best of my knowledge, although U.S. law is generally based on English common law, I believe women in the U.S. had the right to control their own property after marriage well before this right was granted to their British counterparts.  Any legal history students out there who can clarify this?

As for Alice Roosevelt Longworth, I believe that the fortune her husband blew through was his own to begin with, rather than money that she brought to him through marriage.  Although comfortably off, Theodore Roosevelt was not a particularly wealthy man and I don't think he was able to endow his children with large fortunes of their own, especially since there were so many of them to provide for.      

We know that Abby had to sign *her dower rights* away when Andrew sold property I believe they held in common?  She did have to sign things and swear.

As to inheritence, Mr. Fish, as the husband, was named as the beneficiary to the remainder of Abby's assets, not Priscilla Fish, her sister.
I don't why this is.

Abby had her own estate to distribute.

Also, please see deed where Jane assigns to Abby, the 1/2 house (2 women).

Then see deed where Abby signs away her dower right in the Ferry Street property when it was assigned to Emma & Lizzie.


(Message last edited Feb-11th-04  8:49 PM.)

Kat: Where did you find this photo of Sarah? I've seen the others before, but never this one. This one seems more "normal" (except for that mouth! Now we know where Lizzie gets it!) than the one of Sarah holding the young Emma. I always have found that photo disturbing for some reason, and in the same way I find Lizzie's photos to be disturbing. And I realized what makes it that way: Sarah's eyes. They have the same strange "not right" quality that pervades Lizzie's pictures.  

Yes, I agree about the eyes and I think "Young Morse" had those eyes as well!

I believe that photo is from the TV and might have been taken by member Jenean Hall.  I suppose that means it was on a video, or segment on the Borden case on the television.

(Message last edited Feb-11th-04  11:07 PM.)

In John Mortimer's "Oxford Book of Villains", there's a description of Lizzie by a writer named Angela Carter who says "...those mad eyes of the New England saints; eyes that belong to a person who does not listen to you; fanatic's eyes, you might say, if you knew nothing about her."

It must have been uncomfortable for Abby to live with those eyes constantly on her, with never a glint of kindness or good humor.

I sure agree with you Albany, those eyes...."the windows to the soul"
were so sad and lost.  Lizzie's eyes were distant, as were her mothers,very unhappy eyes.  Although pictures of Lizzie, even in
her youth, are not unattractive, still those eyes are the same.  You
just can't see any love or peace in there.  So sad! 

Angela Carter! That was a great quote!  Thanks!

We have a link to Carter at:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources/OnlineResources.htm

"Essay's On The Borden Murders".
Carter has an American version and a British version out there.
I do like the American one with all the evocative smells...

(Message last edited Feb-12th-04  12:42 AM.)

Maybe what gives those eyes their odd look is
the lack of lashes. Lizzie doen't look like she
has any at all in that pic. Look at people who
shave their eyebrows & draw them back on, little
things like that can change their entire look.
I'm not totally sure a little mascara would change
the cold stare of a axe-murdering psychopath into
bedroom eyes -- but I've seen beauty magazine
makeovers that have done almost as much.  

that's a good point Kimberly, I'd love to see a "glamour shot" of
Lizzie.  That pix with the chair shows she does have a small waist
and an almost sexy nonchalance about her, I wonder if our resident
computer experts couldn't doll her up a bit with mascara etc! 

Hmmm, sexy nonchalance??? I've never thought of
that! Being aloof is rather alluring, isn't it? She
was prettier than her mother & sister, and I think
she was prettier than Nance...

The idea of the vast changes makeup can afford really hit home with me yesterday.  I tuned into Oprah and she had Wynonna Judd on.  She was talking about her battle with weight and has agreed to appear regularly on Oprah to document her new weight loss program.  They had cameras in Wynonna's home and showed her sans makeup.  MON DIEU!

I realize her stage and TV makeup are professional jobs-- But what a difference a little foundation makeup is for all of us.  Likewise, cunningly applied makeup can draw the eye from things we want to hide and to things we want to show off!

Lets take Lizzie on "what not to wear"....

Hopefully the English version, the American ones
never look any better "after" thier makeovers.

Bite your tongue, girl!  The Brit show is refreshingly to the point (Host to makeoveree: "Have you lost your mind?"), but I'm a faithful fan of the American show, and I've seen them work wonders.

I won't hit you with this here hatchet if you disagree, though ! 

The American hosts act like they are too afraid to really
tell the "victims" what looks best/worst & why. I think
they aren't sure but what they'll get smacked.