1. "Addie's interesting revelation"
Posted by harry on Jul-9th-03 at 8:48 PM

Mrs. Churchill's testimony at the Preliminary (page 283):

"Q.  When you asked her where her mother was, she said she had a note to go see someone that was sick?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Was that all she said at that time?
A.  But she did not know but she was killed too.
Q.  Did she say anything besides that at that time?
A.  She said that she wished someone would try to find her; that she thought she heard her come in.
Q.  Did she say that at that time?
A.  I think so.
Q.  Are you sure she said that then Mrs. Churchill, or afterwards when Miss Russell came?
A.  She said it after again.
Q.  But you think she said it this time too?
A.  Yes Sir."

I can't believe that Addie is correct. She was the only one there with Lizzie when this conversation took place so how could "someone" go look for Mr. Borden?

If it was made then it would appear Lizzie wanted Abby's body discovered as soon as possible. However she doesn't seem to want it discovered by the police or Dr. Bowen.  As soon as Bowen leaves she repeats her request while I believe only Bridget, Addie and Alice are there and Sawyer at the door. I can't think of any logical reason why.

the one thing that is clear to me is that lizzie knows abby is not in house alive.  lizzie had already shouted murder up the back stairs.  at any time anyone could have shouted for abby.  isn't that odd in itself?  mrs. churchill has already gotten the idea somehow that abby is another victim to be discovered?

perhaps another way to look at it is this:  lizzie knows that the whole house will be searched soon enough, but she wants to seem concerned?  (of course, i'm assuming her guilt.)  i don't know.

Witness Statements, Churchill's statement, pg. 9+ :
"Mrs. Churchill No. 90 Second street. 'Eleven o’clock is the nearest I can fix the time. Returned from market, saw Miss Lizzie at rear door. I thought she looked somewhat strange, asked her what was the matter. She replied, father has been killed. Please come over. I immediately complied. When I reached her I said O, Lizzie, Lizzie, where is your mother? She said, I dont know. The relations between Lizzie and the step-mother were not very friendly, so I hear, but have no personal knowledge of it. Yes, I have heard they do not at all times eat from the same table.' ”

Also, pg. 11+ :

Monday, August, 8, 1892. Afternoon. Dr. Bowen. “Mrs. Churchill first told me of Mrs. Borden’s death.”

Second interview of Mrs. Churchill. Mrs. Churchill. “Must I, am I obliged to tell you all?” “Well, if I must, I cant, be blamed. O, I wish I had not to do this. I do not like to tell anything of my neighbor; but this is as it is. When I went over in answer to Lizzie’s call, I asked O, Lizzie where is your father? In the sitting room. Where were you? I was in the barn looking for a piece of iron. Where is your mother? She had a note to go and see someone who is sick. I dont know but they killed her too. Has any man been to see your father this morning? Not that I know of. Dr. Bowen is not at home, and I must have a Doctor. I think I heard Mrs. Borden come in. Will I go and get one or find someone who will? Yes. I did so. When I returned the first thing I recollect she, (Lizzie) said is, O, I shall have to go to the cemetery myself. No, the undertaker will do that, was my reply. Then Dr. Bowen, Geo. Allen and Charles Sawyer came in. When Dr. Bowen had seen Mr. Borden, he asked me to come into the sitting room and see him, but I declined, and said I would not, I saw him this morning, and he looked so nice, I do not care about seeing him now. The Doctor then went out. Lizzie said, I think father must have an enemy, for we were all sick.

When the Doctor returned, he asked for a sheet. Bridget Sullivan, the work girl, was afraid to go up stairs alone, so I went with her. Lizzie said we would find the sheets in the dressing room, which is off of Mrs, Borden’s room. I think we waited for a key to Mrs. Borden’s room, and I think Dr. Bowen went into the sitting room to get it. If I am not mistaken, he first brought out a bunch, but the one wanted was not among them; so he went in again, and returned with a single key. We then went up stairs, and Bridget asked me if two would be enough. I said I think so, one will cover a person. But we brought down two, and gave them to Dr. Bowen. He covered Mr. Borden, and then went out. Lizzie requested the Doctor to send a telegram to her sister Emma, but not to tell her the facts, for the lady whom she is staying with, is old and feeble, and may be disturbed.

Lizzie then said I wish somebody would go up stairs and try to find Mrs. Borden. So Bridget and I started. I think she led the way. We went up the front stairs, but I only went far enough to clear my eyes above the second floor. The door to the spare room is on the north side of this hall, and was open. I turned my head to the left, and through this door I could see under the bed of this room. On the north side of the bed, on the floor, I saw what I thought to be a prostrate body. There was not much light in the room, so I could not distinguish clearly, but I knew the object was more than a mat. I felt certain it was Mrs. Borden. I then rushed down stairs, and entering the dining room, I doubled myself up, and uttered an exclamation of fright. Miss Alice Russell asked, is there another? I said yes, they killed her too, or something to that effect. I then informed Charles Sawyer of the fact. He made some exclamation. Dr. Bowen then returned, and I told him Mrs. Borden was up stairs in the spare room. he left the sitting room, I think to go up stairs.
I then thought I would go home, and said, Lizzie, if there is there anything you wish me to do, let me know later on. She said, there will be plenty to do bye and bye.

(Harrington & Doherty)

--It sounds as tho Lizzie wants someone other than Dr. Bowen or a cop to find Abby.
She tells Churchill oh I think I heard her come in (Abby), right away.  At least this is Churchill's recollection 4 days after the fact.
Then no one takes the hint, Bowen comes, things get chaotic and Bowen leaves and then Lizzie says, specifically:  someone go find Mrs. Borden.

It sounds strange.  But it reads a bit differently from the Prelim. testimony.  The only thing left out here is Churchill's insistence on the memory that Lizzie asked her to go look for Abby as soon as she, Churchill got there.
This statement was on the 8th of August compared to the 28th of August (or thereabouts) when she would have testified.  Another difference though is that these statements here may have been taken down by the officer and not her writing directly...the difference being under oath, later in time, but her own words taken down by a professional...as opposed to a casual questioning in her own words, anecdotal, unsworn statement.
I know everyone appreciates the difference and I am torn as to which I prefer!




(Message last edited Jul-10th-03  12:50 AM.)

I don't think anybody asked Lizzie WHEN she thought she heard Abby come in. If Lizzie had heard anything prior to calling Bridget down why wouldn't she have said that either to Bridget or later on?

Since she never told Bridget about hearing Abby returning and if she indeed told Addie Churchill that upon her (Addie's) arrival, it had to be when Lizzie was alone:

1) After Bridget had left the second time and Addie went to find a doctor.

2) After Bridget left the first time. That was apparently a very short period of time as she had only gone across the street to Dr. Bowen's.

In fact it really doesn't make any difference if she told that to Addie before repeating it later. It had to occur when Lizzie was alone because then the house begins to fill up with people: Bowen, Bridget returning, Alice Russell, Policeman Allen and Sawyer.  None of them heard any noise as if Abby had returned. And if Lizzie heard it while someone else was there why wouldn't she holler out "Oh, here comes Mrs. Borden!"

Like the note I think the hearing of Abby's return is a sham.  As I said before,IMO, she wants the body found but not by the police nor the doctor. And she wants it found ASAP.





(Message last edited Jul-10th-03  7:54 AM.)

ASAP to bridge the time difference between the two murders, but it's too late for that. 

Good point, but does Lizzie realize that the time difference, at least to some degree, can be ascertained already?

It always bothered me that neither Bowen nor Allen bothered checking the upstairs.  Bowen realizes the murder of Andrew had occured within just minutes yet he leaves without asking Allen to search the upstairs.

Allen checks the front door, only a few feet from the front stairs, but doesn't bother going up there.  He then returns to the police station, leaving only Sawyer at the door.  Even Sawyer had the good sense to realize the killer may still be inside the house.

Then Bridget and Mrs. Churchill bravely go upstairs.  Mrs. Churchill on seeing the prostrate form from the stairs has the good sense to flee abandoning Bridget. Bridget then charges into the room.  Strange behavior for someone who just minutes before was afraid to go up alone.

(Message last edited Jul-10th-03  10:17 AM.)

I strongly feel that guilty Lizzie did not know that there would be any difference between the two corpses; "dead is dead," she may have thought.  More than ever I believe she wanted her audience to think that Abby had returned and that both of the old folks had been slaughtered while she was out futzing around in the yard/barn.  And I do strongly believe she wanted Abby found quickly, and if "someone" is the word Lizzie really used, I think she was, in her odd, non-subtle way, suggesting that Addie make herself busy and get to it.*

I also grieve that unlike these cynical times (when everyone is guilty until proven innocent), no one thought to ask that all-important "Just WHEN did you hear Abby come in, and WHERE were you when you heard this?"  No one (save Phil Harrington later that day) was predisposed to judge the freshly bereaved Lizzie by any of her odd little statements.

*If Addie had been a wisecracking sit-com neighbor, she might've offered "Well, why don't we find this "someone" who was sick, see if she's any better, and SHE can go look for Abby!"

(Message last edited Jul-10th-03  11:13 AM.)

Bob, we are in 100% agreement.  I think the first question I would have asked Lizzie was WHEN did you think you heard her.  And if she did think she heard her come in where did she think she went. 

She could only get to her own room by going up the back stairs and that is near where Lizzie was allegedly standing all the time before help arrived.

Alice: O (love that poetic touch!), Lizzie, where you when you heard Abby come back?

Lizzie:  I was just heading out of the kitchen door to go the barn, to find my sinkers.

Alice:  Did you speak with her?

Lizzie:  No; I had nothing to say.  I wanted to fix my screen, as I said.

Alice:  No, dear, you mentioned sinkers.

Lizzie:  Umm...I do not do things in a hurry, you know!

********************************

Pardon the sarcasm, but see how easy it would've been for Lizzie to claim she thought she heard Abby's key in the front door.  If Lizzie had actually claimed to have spoken with her, as she could've, there might've been the question of why Abby was found still in her housedress and apron (?), with her dusting shawl (still with its hairpins in place) close by her body.  This is the question, though, that Lizzie successfully dealt with in reality by saying that Abby told her she'd run out to see the sick neighbor in her housedress; that it was "good enough."  Notice, though, Lizzie was only claiming that Abby told her she was going to go out - she didn't actually say she saw her leave.  This was in her favor, as the jurors could then tell themselves that Abby 1) never intended to change her dress, and 2) she had been struck down by an unknkown assailant BEFORE she had a chance to leave, after it had been medically shown that she'd been dead for some time.

Or, Lizzie (pardon me!) might've said, "Yes, I spoke to her at the screen door; she said she would go to the guest room to finish tidying up after Uncle John, as she had not had the chance to do so earlier, AND THAT IS WHY SHE WAS FOUND WITH A DUSTING CLOTH AND A HEAD CAP, I suppose..."

She might've even had added, later, had she taken this tack:  "Yes, she changed her dress before she went out.  I don't know but that she changed back when she returned, as I say, for she told me she had not yet completed her housework."

Now, THAT would've cooked Lizzie's goose, wouldn't it?  "You're claiming to have had a conversation, Miss Borden, with a woman who had to be, as shown by expert medical testimony, dead for at least an hour?"

Lizzie:  "She did not appear as dead to me; I spoke with her.  That is all (witness covers her face with her hands for a moment)."

But then, they didn't know at the inquest about the difference in the times of death, did they? 

*******************************************   

Please point out faulty logic or mistakes, but please, y'all, do not tell me "someone" called Nemesis actually committed the murders; that's not the point of this discussion, I think! ;}     

(Message last edited Jul-10th-03  12:33 PM.)

But if Abby told Lizzie that she was going out, that would explain it.

I know I'll regret asking this, and you're probably baiting me but, okay, that would explain WHAT?

it might have worked better if lizzie had figured it out in time, but what actually happened on the first day of questioning is that, after extensively offering possibilities of what her mother might have been doing in that house -- this is her out:

Q. Had you any knowledge of her going out of the house?
A. No sir.
Q. Had you any knowledge of her going out of the house?
A. She told me she had a note, somebody was sick, and said "I am going to get the dinner on the way," and asked me what I wanted for dinner.

what if knowlton had asked her that same question a third time?

if lizzie had been telling the truth in the first place, she would have said IN THE FIRST PLACE -- i never wondered where she was in the house, because after what she told me, when i did not see her, i assumed she had gone out.

clearly she spoke of a note in the immediate aftermath of the murders.  question is -- why does she try so hard to avoid the note story in her inquest testimony?  and fixing a screen becomes sinkers.  and she heard nothing. etc.

but this is old hat anyway.  but what was the original question?  whether mrs churchill heard from lizzie what she thought she heard?  well, she must have since her actions show it. no? i don't know.

I think he means it would axplain why Lizzie didn't call upstairs for Abby because Lizzie had been told (supposedly) by Abby that she was going out

Anyway, here is something to add into your mix, though I did really like the part about why Lizzie claims Abby told her her own dress was good enough to visit someone who was sick.

It's that Abby can't come in the front door because they had taken her key

Proceedings, Jennings notes, Mrs. Dr. Bowen:
"j.  Mrs. Dr. Bowen--called and said that on Tuesday of the murder she was walking up the street with Mrs. Borden and (spoke?) and (B saw?) said L wasn't up yet but Mrs. Bowen had seen someone come away so she knew she was and went over there with Mrs. Borden.

Mrs. Borden said she couldn't get in the front way 'for they had taken her key.'  So she and Mrs. Bowen went in by the back door."

..........

Here is something which did not occur to us.  That if Abby did *return* she would have had to enter at the screen door anytime from somewhat after 9 (which is the last time Bridget or Lizzie claim to have seen Abby) until ?

And since we don't have Lizzie giving a time frame as to when she thought she heard Abby return, specifically, it could be any time.
But.   Bridget would or should have seen her leave and return.  Lizzie could or should have seen her leave or return.  Except for the two small time frames where each girl says they were 1. in the barn loft  &  2. in bed...from 10:50 to 11:10.  But then Lizzie could not say she heard Abby come in, if she was in the barn during that time.  Lizzie's kitchen alibi is now no good for Andrew's return AND for *Abby's return*.  They each would have had to go to the kitchen door to get in first or ring the front bell.

Great sleuthing, Kat.  Lizzie is in on the whole deal up to her eyeballs, like I've said before, I feel if she didn't do it, she most certainly knew who did.  I'm surprised that no one on the Prosecution caught this way back when. 

At the trial, Mrs. Dr. Bowen was a Defense Witness.  The notes are Jennings.
I suppose they suppressed the evidence.

This spinning-out of theory and deductive reasoning is why I love being part of a society like this one.

I have to tell you, I never met such an non-committal, vague family in my life, what with all their "someones" and "theys":

Mrs. Dr. B:  O, Abby, why are we going in the side door?

Abby:  Well, they took my front-door key, Phoebe!

MDB:  "They" WHO?  Speak English, Abby.

A:  Sorry.  Andrew borrowed my key to have a new duplicate made.

MDB:  Thank you!  You Bordens!  I swear...!

As much as I don't believe Lizzie's story, isn't it possible Abby did have her key back by Thursday?   

(Message last edited Jul-11th-03  11:24 AM.)

If the prosecution didn't know about Abby's key being taken, and because Abby didn't leave after all, I guess it doesn't matter in the jury's eyes.  But I still think we might consider Abby was keyless (to the front door) and Lizzie knew it.  If Lizzie knew it, it might affect her story, not knowing if that fact might get out.
So we can examine what Lizzie said in that light.
Anybody?
It's a new approach, at least....It might still be valid because Jennings included it in his notes that the info came out Tuesday of the murder week, so he must have found it still significant, I would think.

I believe AR Brown notes that going out wearing her morning house dress implies it was somebody who was of inferior rank, and probably a relative. ARB says it was the WS Bassett child, who did die later that year. That's as good as explanation as any, IMO.

Lizzie would then expect Abby to return for dinner, about noon time.

OF COURSE THEY CAUGHT THIS!!! That's why Lizzie was charged with the crime. "Either you confess to who you saw (since you said it wasn't Bridget or anyone who worked for Father), or YOU take the fall!"
[My quotes, deduced from real life events.]

So WHO took Abby's key? And for what purpose?
Another mystery?

Rays, if the Prosecution caught that Abby didn't have her front door key and supposedly Lizzie heard her come in whilst sitting in the kitchen, how did Abby come in through a locked front door?  They never made any case about it at the trial, they never brought anything up about it at all.  Like Kat had said in her post, the Defense may have known of it and suppressed the information. 

So can we figure out when Lizzie could possibly have heard Abby come in, when no one else heard and knowing Abby must have entered by the screen door?  Does this suit Lizzie's statements in any way...did she allow for this or did she forget or did she not know...?

Well, if we go by Addie Churchill's Trial testimony, she states that Lizzie said that "she thought she heard Abby come in and may be killed too" when Addie first came to the house.  Lizzie was in the back hall and kitchen during that whole time after finding Andrew.  I believe that she would know for sure if someone came in that screen door and went up the back stairs.  Then, according to Addie, Lizzie again makes her statement about hearing Abby come in when Alice Russell arrives.  Now, I think Lizzie would have to had known or seen that Bridget and Mrs. Churchill went up the back stairs to get the sheets for Andrew, so, the only way her statement works is for Abby to have come in the front door.  The front door that had all 3 locks in use when Bridget let Andrew in, not the normal protocol if someone left the house through that door and was coming back.  And one thing I noticed that is rather odd, when Bridget and Mrs. Churchill go to look for Abby, not once does either think to pop their head into the parlor.  They just go straight upstairs.  I wonder if Lizzie somehow indicated in her statement of hearing Abby come in that she heard her go upstairs? 

Witness Statements, Mrs. Churchill, second interview, pg. 12:
"Lizzie then said I wish somebody would go up stairs and try to find Mrs. Borden. So Bridget and I started. I think she led the way. We went up the front stairs, but I only went far enough to clear my eyes above the second floor."

--This statement  also specifies that Lizzie told them where to find a sheet.
So it sounds like Bridget was not necessarily aware of where the sheets were kept.  Also, it seems as if no one told Bowen right off that the key to the Borden's bedroom door was on the mantle, because he first went to get the key in the sitting room & came back with a bunch.  Either the key was not always kept on the mantle, or Lizzie and Bridget let Bowen go through Andrew's pockets before they informed him of where the key was kept.

--Lizzie just actually tells the ladies that they should look upstairs.  So the fact that Abby's key was taken, and gone from her possession (on, at the least, Tuesday that week), is very strange indeed because
1.  Lizzie didn't know that
Or
2.  Lizzie forgot
And
It never came up in court.

--So who took Abby's key & why?  It's too coincidental that her front door key was  gone.  But if Andrew required it?  Still, it probably happened after Emma left because if a key was needed prior to Emma leaving they could have borrowed hers.
--It seems rather obvious that Lizzie cannot have heard Abby come in the back door at all, if she was always in the back hall & kitchen whilst still alone in the house.  Do you think she implies that she could have heard Abby enter the house from the screen door while another was there? (Bridget or Addie or Alice or Bowen, together or seperately?)
But yes, you're right, Abby just flat out cannot be up the back stairs and flat-out can't be up the front, after *returning*.  Because of the sheets and because of that key.
--I've also always wondered about why no one thought to look in that parlour...but this statement above, by Addie Churchill does point directly up stairs in the front.
If Lizzie had not specified upstairs, she would have been better off.
--If the prosecution knew Abby had no key and figured out what we just did, Lizzie would be in a heap'o'trouble.
--I'm also tending to agree with the theory proposed that the time difference in the death's did not play a part in the Witness Statements and was probably not official State expert opinion until Dolan's final autopsy report later.
So at the time Lizzie could try and get away with the implication that Abby died near to the time of Andrew.  And that was the whole pont to the *I think I Heard Her Come In* story, by Lizzie, and no one asked for a separate alibi for the earlier death of Abby in the Witness Statements.  That's what's missing in there...

(Message last edited Jul-13th-03  11:31 PM.)

I remember reading that Bridget is on the record saying something like "themselves took care of their own rooms."  Therefore, except for the sheets for her own bed, she'd have no reason to do anything with the family's sheets except wash them, hang them out to dry, and iron them.  Abby would bring hers upstairs, up back (?) and Emma or Lizzie would bring theirs up front - and if the girls were going to receive visitors in the guest room, my guess is it was up to them to get it in shape.  Therefore, Bridget really wouldn't know exactly where the sheets were stored on the second floor.  Also, Abby, as mistress of the house, had to make up the guest room after relative John Morse's supposed one-night stay - and I know a lot of conspiracy theories center on his visit necessitating Abby's presence in the room, where she'd be easy pickins for... 

Kat, the parlor is so close to everthing else on the first floor (as you know) that I doubt they even thought to send anyone the twenty steps to that room to check, IMO.  

Thanks, Kat.  I must have glossed over that part about the upstairs.  So, it was Lizzie calling the shots, telling others where to go to find things.  I wonder if Abby did get her front door key back by then?  "They" took her key, which would leave me to believe it was more than one person, Lizzie and Emma?  Why?  Only one of them had a front door key and another was necessary because they were both going out of town at the same time? 

Lizzie is the only one who made mention of the parlor that day, asking Bridget to shut the blinds or shutters when through with her window washing as the sun was so hot.  Which indicates to me that she had been in there that day.  Why wasn't it checked out by anyone that day?  There doesn't seem to be a thorough search analysis of that particular room, it almost has the status of an anti-room.  Was it completely locked up that day? 

Again, this is speculation based on a few words, not the whole story.
I interpret this as Lizzie heard a heavy tread upon the back stairs. It was likely another policeman. If Abby came home, she must have been in the habit of going to her room to put aside her outside dress for a house dress. You ladies can decide if this is still common when you return from visiting. This is what Andy did earlier.

Also, if the back rooms were already searched, then only the front bedrooms remained. (I don't have the timeline for these events, but it must have happened before 1pm.)

Perhaps this implies that Lizzie KNEW who was visiting, and that he was stashed in the upstairs guest room. If he did Andy, then maybe that room needed to be searched as well?

No one was there with a tape recorder, so the story could have been altered in the retelling, based on the new facts. Isn't that how memory works for some?

Bridget wasn't sent to do the bedrooms for the obvious: privacy, etc. Even today (?) there are areas off-limits to the servants.

What did the other servant girls do in that house? Was this common practice of the times?

One could interpret privacy as the reason Bridget was instructed not to "do" the bedrooms, but to state it as a certainty implies that it was, at some time, stated as thus, which I don't believe was the case.

Does it make me sound more fair-minded if I conclude the post with a question?  In your experience, has this ever convinced anyone?

AR Brown mentions that "doing it yourself" was still the tradition (in reference to store-bought bread as against home-made). So too the democratic tradition would be to "clean your own room", even if paid help was available. (It also avoids any chance of things going missing.)

I don't know what the rich and powerful do today (like Prince William, who reportedly has a servant to squeeze his toothpaste!). But doing your own cleaning "builds character" or something like that. And you won't look dumb when you go to college (as per that lady who owned the Washington Post and wrote about her college years experiences).
...
I hope this explains my diplomatic use of the word "privacy".

(Message last edited Jul-14th-03  3:53 PM.)

You seem to believe Lizzie when she says she thought she heard Abby return
so do you then disbelieve her when she says Andrew did not go upstairs when he returned?  (You say Andy did this earlier).

Yes Lizzie is calling the shots.  I wish we weren't missing the part about how Dr. Bowen eventually found the key to the Borden's bedroom.  I haven't checked Bowen lately...Is it in there?
Anyway, she told them where the sheets were and sent them looking upstairs for Abby And determined when Andrew's body was ready to be found, as well as Abby's.

I'm beginning to think more about that key.  Andrew's key would not unlock the front door, and he was not let in the screen door if he did attempt to enter there first.  So the front door is crucial to the plot.  Now, if Abby had her front door key taken, that implies that *whoever* did not want Abby entering the house by the front door.  So it seems as if Abby was not necessarilly meant to die in the guest room.  Because the key was taken from her before Morse came, and by Tuesday the 2nd.  So if Morse was not expected Wednesday specifically, taking her key would ensure she used the screen door or had to ring to be let in.  Keeping Abby in the rear part of the house...keeping her using that entrance.  That might mean an original plot (by one or?) meant to kill her in her room, the attics or the cellar.
Morse coming and using the guest room, a room Abby rarely enters, might be just an unknowable benefit of his unannounced arrival for an overnight stay.
(He did say he could have caught the 6:30 out of town Wednesday but he didn't...)  The opportunity was too good to pass up.  Pre-meditated killing but as to where it occurred depended upon opportunity and access.

(Message last edited Jul-14th-03  6:42 PM.)

I always thought of "they" taking away Abby's key as another little power game, not necessarily directly connected to the murders.  Was thinking (like Susan above) it could have come about during the time L&E were going out of town.  They considered the upstairs/front part of the house to be their turf & wanted to assume ownership over the front door.  Prob they had only 1 key between them & decided to take Abby's instead of making a copy.

Bowen is pretty much useless when it comes to that key --  Trial, pg 305 --

Q - Did you get the key yourself, or did anyone get it in your presence to give to those who were going for a sheet?

A - I don't know, sir.

Did find some interesting key stuff enroute to that, however --

Witness Statements, Churchill, pg 12 --

"I think we waited for a key to Mrs Borden's room, and I think Dr Bowen went into the sitting room to get it.  If I am not mistaken, he first brought out a bunch, but the one wanted was not among them; so he went in again, and returned with a single key."

Bridget, Trial, pg 248 --

"Dr Bowen wanted a sheet, and I said, I guessed the sheets were up in Mrs Borden's bedroom, Mrs Borden's desk where she kept the bed-clothes, and he wanted to get the keys, and I asked Dr Bowen if he would get the keys off the shelf in the sitting room, and he did so, and Miss Russell said she would do anything to help me..."

...Abby kept the bed-clothes in her desk???

Notes re "key control" --

Lizzie, Inquest, pg 61 --

"I think he came to the front door and rang the bell, and I think Maggie let him in, and he said he had forgotten his key, so I think she must have been downstairs."

I'm now wondering if Andrew did forget his front door key, or maybe his was absconded too.

Bridget, Trial, pg 264 --

Q - There was a key to the side wooden door?
A - Yes, sir.
Q - And do you know whether Mrs Borden or anyone else had a key to it besides yourself?
A - I know Mrs Borden had a key for it; Mrs Borden got a key for it when I got mine

I'm wondering if poor Abby didn't even have a key to her own side door before Bridget came along.

(Message last edited Jul-14th-03  11:30 PM.)

I think it is too coincidental that Abby was minus the front door key on Tuesday, 2 days before her murder.
And if the girls are going away, (the 21st), they don't need a front door key if someone else wants to use it, like Abby.  In fact, as I said before, there could even have been a key borrowed off Emma- she didn't need it.  Yet it's Abby's key which is taken.


You do know how I admire putting 'like things with like'.  That was good collecting the key stuff, thanks!

Mrs. Kelly & Bridget both think Andrew had a key when he came home.

Preliminary
Mrs. Kelly
209
Q.  What did you see him doing, if anything, when he got up the steps?
A.  I thought he was trying to put the key in the door. I thought he was trying to open the door.
..........
211:
Q.  Did you look to see what he did at the door?
A.  Yes Sir. I looked up to speak to him, and he did not see me.
Q.  He was back to you then, was he?
A.  Yes Sir; I thought he was trying to open the door.
Q.  Could you tell whether he had a key in his hand or not?
A.  No Sir.

Trial
Mrs. Kelly
213:
Q.  What did you see him do at the front door?
A.  He stooped down as though putting a key in the door, that is all.

__________

Prelim.
Bridget
19:
Q.  Have you any idea what time that was?
A.  It might be later than half past ten; I could not tell.
Q.  What locks on the front door did you find locked when you let him in?
A.  The bolt and a common key that I turned on both sides.
Q.  Anythingelse?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  A spring lock?
A.  Yes Sir. He had a key.
Q.  He unlocked that from the outside?
A.  Yes Sir.
.........
Page 79
Q.  Any key or brass lock in his hand?
A.  I did not notice it.
Q.  Did one hand seem to be free, and the other to have a package in it?
A.  I did not notice, only that he had a little package.

............
Trial
Bridget  [Here's something interesting about that side door:]
Page 203
Q.  In what condition were all those locks left on the Wednesday night when you last
came in?
A.  Well, I hooked the screen door, I came in and locked the wooden door, and sprung the latch, and a catch which couldn't be opened from the outside with any key, and then bolted the other lock.
..........
Page 234

A.  Well, I heard like a person at the door was trying to unlock the door and push it but could not, so I went to the front door and unlocked it.

Q.  Did you hear the ringing of any bell?
A.  No, sir, I don't remember to hear any bell.

Q.  When you got to the front door what did you find the condition of the locks there?
A.  I went to open it, caught it by the knob, the spring lock, as usual, and it was locked. I unbolted it and it was locked with a key.

Q.  So that there were three locks?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  What did you do with reference to the lock with the key?
A.  I unlocked it. As I unlocked it I said, "Oh pshaw," and Miss Lizzie laughed, up        stairs,---Her father was out there on the door step. She was up stairs.
-------------




(Message last edited Jul-15th-03  1:38 AM.)

Mmmm...but was it the correct key?

Reason I'm suspicious is (as always with me) the control issue.  Keeping who's coming in & how & where & under what circumstances.

(Message last edited Jul-15th-03  1:14 AM.)

I was still editing when you posted, Tina-Kate.  Hope this does not confuse your post.
I do think that Andrew would know if he had the right key.  He'd been basically dealing with keys half his life.
Unless you think the lock had been tampered with?
And how can the girls retain control while they are out of town?

Reading about all those locks on the front door is confusing, I looked at the pics on the LBVM&L, it helped.  There was the original:

And the current day which is in the same configuration:


The bolt is the bolt, easy enough.  My take is the lock on the top is the spring lock that Lizzie and Andrew had a key to.  The lock under the knob seems to be the night lock, I assume you could only use a key on the inside of the door to manipulate this lock?  The one Bridget refers to turning the key to both sides? 

I'm not sure w/o the references. Didn't Bridget say one thing, and Lizzie another? I believe (from memory) that Andy did go up to his room upon his return. I don't know why, unless it was to get something from his safe, or put something away.
...
If the night dead bolt was fastened, this would explain why Andy could not open the door. The simplest explanation.

(Message last edited Jul-15th-03  4:57 PM.)

I don't have any reference handy, but I thought the problem with the front door was the night dead bolt was fastened (usually unlocked in the morning). An oversight, or did someone come in the front door and then fasten ALL the locks?

Excellent post Susan.  Nothing like a visual to make things a lot clearer.  Thanks.

Yes thank you for the pics.

Do you mean the keyhole under the doorknob might only be a keyed lock from the inside, or do you mean the spring lock would need an inside key and an outside key?
I am confused just at your last sentence.  Thanks

You're welcome, I find the visuals helpful with all the talk of those locks from different people.

Yes, Kat, I was going by Bridget's Prelim testimony:

Q.  What locks on the front door did you find locked when you let him in?
A.  The bolt and a common key that I turned on both sides.
Q.  Anythingelse?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  A spring lock?
A.  Yes Sir. He had a key.
Q.  He unlocked that from the outside?
A.  Yes Sir.

I'm thinking the top lock was the spring lock that Andrew was able to unlock from outside.  I'm thinking that the "common key" Bridget refers to turning on both sides is the lock under the doorknob.  Its just the way it is made to sound when the "night lock", which I'm thinking is that "common keyed" lock, is in place, you cannot unlock it from the outside?  So, whenever the last person came in for the night, such as Lizzie, the bolt would get slid into place and that key turned to lock the lock under the knob.  The spring lock would lock itself.  Did that make any sense or did I just muddy things further? 

That is fine.
I had posted the Bridget Prelim. pg. 19, earlier.  I understood that stuff which she said.
It was the mixture of your last two sentences I didn't get.
Thank you that new explanation of what you meant- that is pretty clear.

Andrew had a key and used it on the lock under the knob.  He couldn't get in because the inside key had to be turned AND the bolt had to be open, yes?

The front door, when all three locks were working and in place, would seem to make the front door very secure from outsiders.

The inside cellar door, as shown in the pictures posted by Kat, would also look very strong.  The outside door probably just had a conventional lock.  We don't have a clear photo of that door either from the inside or outside.

The side or rear door seems to be the most vulnerable to entry by an intruder. Only one key was required and I don't think there was a bolt.

Bridget, Preliminary, p2+

"Q.  Did you have anything to do with shutting up the doors when you went to bed, or any of them?
A.  Not except the back door, I locked that, had a key for it, when I got in.
Q.  You mean the wooden door, not the screen?
A.  I had to come through the screen door.
Q.  Which did you lock?
A.  Both doors.
Q.  How was the screen door locked?
A.  A bolt.
Q.  How the wooden door?
A.  There was a fastener to it."

I wonder if Bridget really means a hook on the screen door and not a bolt.  The screen door would have been a minor obstacle in any case. The other question would be what is Bridget's definition of a "fastener"?  Or does Bridget have the locks reversed and nobody caught it?

Since they were so security conscience why didn't they lock the door from the back hallway into the cellar? Sawyer had the good sense to at least close that door while he stood guard.


(Message last edited Jul-16th-03  7:54 AM.)

I was thinking that Andrew used his key on the very top lock, the spring lock.  That was my take.  The other two items seemed to be for night-time use only. 

If you know of any burglaries, the most common way to enter a house is through a cellar window. Or a first floor window. Those locks are easy to open with a long thin screwdriver.

Trial
Bridget  [Here's something interesting about that side door:]
Page 203
Q.  In what condition were all those locks left on the Wednesday night when you last came in?
A.  Well, I hooked the screen door, I came in and locked the wooden door, and sprung the latch, and a catch which couldn't be opened from the outside with any key, and then bolted the other lock.

It sounds as thought she did earlier confuse her testimony.  You caught that.
Good.
I was looking at Sawyer earlier and he doesn't really say if the interior cellar door in the back hall was unlocked, just that he bolted it.  It may have had a key lock as well, and I don't know if he would try the knob, but maybe rather just shot a bolt, to feel safer.  Do we know more about how that door was usually kept, locked always like other doors?

--Ray something I realized not too long ago was the house has really high windows, and I hadn't noticed.  They are like 7 feet above the ground.  In the Knowlton Papers, letter #HK067, Officer Desmond investigated the *crime* and says Lizzie told him the cellar door was open and they probably got in that way.  But we don't know if she meant open as in not locked, or open as in standing ajar, nor which of the 3 cellar doors she refers,

Now I'm really confused.  It doesn't sound from Bridget's trial testimony as though that side door was vulnerable.
"Q.   When you came back how did you find the door?
A.   It was locked.
Q.   You unlocked it, I take it?
A.   Yes, sir.
Q.   With your key?
A.   Yes, sir.
Q.   Did anyone else have a key to the back door?
A.   I think Mrs. Borden had a key to it.
Q.   After you passed in through that door did you notice anything as to how it was locked, --- whether locked or otherwise?
A.   I locked it myself with three locks as I came in.
Q.   How did you lock it after you came in?
A.   There was a lock, a spring lock, a bolt and spring. There were two spring locks and a bolt.
Q.   In what condition were all those locks left on the Wednesday night when you last came in?
A.   Well, I hooked the screen door. I came in and locked the wooden door, and sprung the latch, and a catch which couldn't be opened from the outside with any key, and then bolted the other lock.
Q.   And you say you hooked the screen door in addition?
A.   Yes, sir.

Harry, are you saying that Bridget was confusing the front door locks with the back door locks?  It seemed to be her habit to come in that door.  At trial she says she had little to do with the front door and couldn't remember having to open it before for Andrew.  So do we know that she was wrong about all those locks on the side door?

No Diana, I was under apparently the false impression that the back door had only one lock.  The only picture I have seen of the door is a modern day picture and the bolt appears to be a turn type which I don't think existed in 1892.  I hadn't read Bridget's trial testimony at the time I typed that.

As for the Bridget's confused testimony, this is what I refrred to:

"Q.  How was the screen door locked?
A.  A bolt.
Q.  How the wooden door?
A.  There was a fastener to it."

Those should be the opposite.

Thanks for clearing that up for me, Harry.  OK, I'm less confused now.  I was a little dim not to notice, although you made it quite clear, that you were using the Bridget's Prelim. testimony.   I'd been steeped in the trial and forgotten for the moment that we even had two versions of Bridget's account. 

Did Bridget really make a mistake? Or is it in the transcription?
Caution should be exercised on these minor details. But some may disagree.

on my own intuition, i've noted this about bridget's testimony:  that her accent might have led to errors.  the business of whether or not she ever said lizzie was crying, for example.  think of what other words sound like "crying" or whether bridget said "i" or "lizzie."

I've been trying to find if 2 key deadbolts existed in the 1890's.  I haven't found anything yet.