Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden Topic Name: About Alice and Lizzie  

1. "About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on May-22nd-03 at 5:45 AM

We had read that Mrs. Tripp, in the Inquest, had said that Lizzie implied years ago that Abby was deceitful, *one thing to her front and another to her back*, and that Lizzie had complained that she could not ABIDE deceitfulness.

This was Lizzie in her younger days, while visiting with her friend.  Under the freedom of no longer being influenced, maybe by Abby  being out of town on a visit, it seems she spoke freely.

I was wondering if Abby acted that way, if she did at all, because of fear of Lizzie (or Emma).  We hear what Lizzie cannot abide, but her standards seem rather stiff, unyielding, and stern, as if Lizzie has not learned the art of compromise and how to *get along*-- Where it might be considered Proper behaviour of the daughter to adhere to the precepts of her elders while living under their roof.  It seems as if a child were stating a black-and-white notion of what the world should be, with no understanding of the grey areas, or that it was incumbrant upon her as inferior youngest daughter, to adapt HER actions to suit the household and not cause turmoil.  *An ungrateful daughter*, shall I call her?

Now, she has a poor father but a large name, as she is growing up.  You'd think she would be satisfied with each step the family made which was closer to prosperity and since she knew no different, her friends being mostly young working women in respectable teaching jobs, why would she develope this strong dissatisfaction with her lot in life?  The gradual easement of want, you'd think, would be also Lizzie's gradual adaption, and so how and when and why did she grow toward a feeling of *Entitlement*?  Just who did she think she WAS, that she could cause such disturbance in the homelife of her dear Father by agitating for More or for Better or for Different?

Now we come to Alice.  She seems to have been indoctrinated with Lizzie's Manifesto, and I'm not sure Alice even realized it. 
Reading Alice at the Inquest, she states that Lizzie has said *so-and-so* about Abby, sure, in all the time she knew her, but that it also was *The Father*-- the Father who did not *appreciate* girls who need to go and do and have.

Alice's own father died when she was 26, and at that time Alice was probably sorely missing the security and the Protection that having a living father could afford a spinster daughter.  Alice would now have the burden of helping her mother forever, and she did go out to work and she did help her mother and she did her duty and we don't hear HER complain.  So..I think it is really loyal of Alice to put forward Lizzie's *case* against Andrew in her Inquest testimony, when Lizzie is in so far a superior position to poor Alice in that even when Lizzie complained, at least her father was ALIVE.

Then we have Alice staying in the elder Borden's room those 2 nights until the club was found under her bed.  She said it badly frightened her, that she had not ever noticed it before, that she felt in some way it implicated her, and that she did change rooms that Saturday night, but not because of the whittled stick...She Says.  Was she frightened of Lizzie at this point?  Does she think her friend put that there as a warning?  Do we?
I had thought it more of an example of something that was there which was missed in a search, but now I wonder if it was more likely something which appeared there, from outside..something brought in.  And maybe put there TO implicate Alice?  Sick, if true.

If Alice didn't change rooms because of the shock of finding that club or stick, WHY did she change rooms?  Has anyone thought why?

At the final part of Alice's testimony she is asked *Is there any thing more you can tell Us?*  *Any other fact*?  *It's your duty to tell us and it's my duty to ask*  *Any other fact*?  *Any other fact*?
Alice does NOT disclose the dress-burning incident!
How she squares this with her conscience at the time is hard to imagine.  Because right THEN she is asked about Lizzie's dress!

We have to realize that Knowlton was a busy man, with a full life of a private practice AND as prosecutor for the county and he was called to this case and had a few meetings and had read some police witness papers and had to talk to people to get this story straight in his mind from just walking in out of the cold within one week.  So his questions at the Inquest are going to be searching out a foothold, as he really does not know these people and a week before knew not barely that they even existed.  We have to give him that benefit of getting his facts straight from a previously blank slate.  We come at the case from the end backward.  Knowton came to this case already with a backlog of other cases that comprised other lives that he woud also grow to know intimately.  That's quite a juggling act, and no wonder he did not live long.

This is about Alice, ultimately, and a question would be, was Lizzie an intimidator and/or a bully?  Could she have frightened Abby all along, as to what she was capable?  Did she put that club under Alice's bed the morning of the funeral as a warning?

We have several witnesses that have said that Abby was close-mouthed about the family matters in that house.  Is it possible she was anxious that Lizzie would hear anything she said repeated back and take revenge...whether the cold-shoulder at home or something more sinister?  That's a double standard because Lizzie did make remarks about Abby to others.  But if Lizzie heard something behind HER back she cut the person.  She sounds unforgiving, too.  Holding on to acrimony that arose years before.  Hoarding it.  Counting it like money.

It's a wonder Alice got out of that house and that friendship alive and whole and sane.  What an horrific ordeal for an otherwise common woman to endure.  And to have her family name bandied about a century later!

(Message last edited May-22nd-03  5:54 AM.)


2. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Edisto on May-22nd-03 at 10:56 AM
In response to Message #1.

I was discussing birth order with my own youngest child recently, and I'm glad you brought that up, because I've considered what Lizzie's birth order had to do with her role in the case.  On another point, however, I wonder???  Did Lizzie grow up in a family with an important local name but little in the way of means?  Rebello (pp. 543-544) cites info from a number of Dun & Bradstreet reports, beginning in 1852, that describe Andrew (or at least his company) as being prosperous.  The section of the book that covers Andrew's land transactions also shows him actively engaged in real estate from well before Lizzie was born.  I've always had the feeling that Andrew was quite prosperous during all of Lizzie's life prior to the murders.
(In 1861, D&B said the firm's business had "slackened," but that it still had "ample capital.")  Of course, if Andrew was really as stingy as he is described, Lizzie might not have viewed the family as prosperous.


3. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by rays on May-22nd-03 at 4:52 PM
In response to Message #2.

If word got around about Andy's tricks in swindling customers, that would be one good reason for him to go out of business.

Know of any car dealerships that change hands about every 10 years?


4. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by rays on May-22nd-03 at 4:55 PM
In response to Message #1.

I have neither the complete trial transcript, not the time to read it. Did Alice say nothing about that dress burning? We do know she said that the paint stained dress was not seen by her for months (not that Thursday morning). Then she changed her mind months later. Why?


5. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by njwolfe on May-22nd-03 at 6:38 PM
In response to Message #1.

I also get that picture of Lizzie as Kat suggested "intimidating,
unforgiving...etc"  The reported scene at the jail where Lizzie
was (supposedly) overheard saying to Emma "you have given me
away...well I won't give an inch"  and then layed on her cot
with her back turned against Emma for hours, not speaking.  That
I can believe is typical Lizzie, from all the various accounts
I've read.  Even though Mrs. Regan later denied it, I think that
account was true and typical Lizzie bullying and getting her way. 


6. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on May-22nd-03 at 10:00 PM
In response to Message #2.

You're right about Andrew's budding prosperity even before Lizzie was born.  But the family still lived in the old homestead, with Abraham & wife and Lurana and husband and son, and a servant or *couple*, including Andrew & wife and Emma and Lizzie.
Because of these living conditions, and the possibility of sharing a room with her sister until 1872, my thoughts on where Lizzie got her sense of wanting more is still open to answer.  Moving to Second Street, and maybe her first own private room, even if small, is my idea of a 12 year-olds Heaven.  That, too, would be what I consider a slow adaption of Lizzie to *more* and better.  A gradual increase in getting the *goods*, like more privacy, more dresses, running water added to the house, their own maid for their own family.
Andrew wasn't famous for being benefactor to his extended family, that we know of...So there was not much tangible evidence of Andrew's wealth and largess.

I picture the family as moving up in the world, in stages, Not like winning the lottery with a spontaneous jackpot [I'm being extreme] and so I think that would be a slow adaptation of the daughters, especially as they were girls and not ones supposed to question just how much Andrew really had.
It's the almost inherent triat of Lizzie to want or need more and once she gets more she needs and wants even more, that I question.  Andrew was not a conspicuious consumer.  I doubt either of his wives were as well.
Who gave her the idea she was entitled?  Who influenced her to think she was "above" Mrs. Whitehead?


7. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Susan on May-22nd-03 at 10:17 PM
In response to Message #1.

I think you may be right about Abby acting as she did out of fear of Lizzie, one way to Lizzie's face, another to her back.  It sounds as though there were enough yelling matches in that house, Lizzie contesting loudly for her rights, that Abby may have just wanted peace and no confrontations when trying to do things.

Wasn't the Borden an old family?  Weren't there relatives of Lizzie's, possibly distant, but, sharing the family name that were better off than her family living in Fall River at the time?  School children can be cruel, perhaps they teased Lizzie for being a Borden and not living on the hill, not having a stylish wardrobe, etc.  This may be where she first got the idea that she was living beneath her father's means.  Or perhaps it was when Lizzie became older and possibly met some of these "girls" who came from well-to-do families and saw how they lived.  How they summered in grand hotels at the seaside, how lavish their wardrobes were, how they traveled as they wished, purchased what they wanted, when they wanted.  Perhaps she wanted to be part of the "in crowd"?

From Alice's later testimony, it sounds as though she realized she may have over-reacted to the stick.  A murder had just been commited, no murder weapon found as of yet, she sits down (I assume)at possibly a dressing table of Abby's in the room to comb her hair and in her lowered position can now see under the bed and see the stick.  But, why the sudden change of rooms if it wasn't because of her fright of the stick?  Did Emma make a suggestion or Lizzie?  Alice gives no reason.

I think Alice didn't talk about the dress burning at the time because she believed or made herself believe that Lizzie was innocent.  And, Alice may have feared Lizzie turning on her if the dress burning proved to be nothing and she ratted Lizzie out on it.  When the tide turned and Lizzie was in jail, she probably realized she was holding a crucial piece of evidence.  And also, by that time, was Alice sort of dropped by Emma and Lizzie as a friend, possibly shunned?  That may have been her deciding factor in telling all she knew at the trial.


8. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by harry on May-22nd-03 at 10:54 PM
In response to Message #7.

The relationship between Alice and the girls must have soured pretty soon after the crimes.

I don't know of any visit by Alice to Lizzie while she was confined. Was there one? The telling of the dress burning incident didn't occur until November and Lizzie had been in jail since August, some 3 months.

I'll have to go back and read Alice's Inquest and Preliminary testimony to see if it was particularly damaging to Lizzie. 



9. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on May-22nd-03 at 11:18 PM
In response to Message #2.

These are all really good points you guys, all of you.  Thanks for thinking, and of course I now want More!
(I'm only a week off Lizzie's B. Day, after all!)

I grew up in a time when our father became more prosperous as we got older.
The elder children never wanted much and made-do just fine.
The youngest never knew any different, and accepted the extra advantages as his normal life.
Maybe there is a fusion of the birth order AND the belief in *entitlement*?
Edisto, did you want to elucidate on a theory on birth order and Lizzie, and if so, do you include little Alice?


10. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Susan on May-23rd-03 at 3:21 AM
In response to Message #8.

Yes, Harry, I think you are right.  I can't recall reading that Alice ever visited Lizzie while she was incarcerated.  I went over Alice's Inquest testimony earlier and there didn't seem to be anything damaging about what she told, she doesn't seem to remember much.  Maybe you will find something more that I glossed over? 


11. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Carol on May-23rd-03 at 1:58 PM
In response to Message #4.

That's the big question Rays, why did Alice change her mind. At the trial Alice told about the dress burning incident (and also about the paint-stained dress being last seen by her during that event)which she did not do at the inquest or preliminary hearing. She first brought it up to the grand jury from what is told, although we have no records from the grand jury. 

That's Alice for you. While she is sleeping over in the Borden's bedroom (where there is a door that could be locked that is between the rooms) she becomes gradually deathly afraid of Lizzie because she now thinks Lizzie killed Abby and Andrew and Alice also saw a club under the Borden's bed which she suspects Lizzie might have put there to impicate Alice in the crimes and to throw suspicion off herself.  So instead of heading for home right then Alice actually changes rooms so she can sleep even closer to Lizzie, in Emma's room for the next two nights. Wow, that Lizzie was really a mean, stingy, oddious old soul and Alice really intelligent.




12. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by haulover on May-23rd-03 at 3:11 PM
In response to Message #9.

i don't know how pertinent this is to what you're getting at but concerning the relationship between abby and lizzie -- it revolves around andrew.  abby would have always been aware without a doubt that andrew loved his daughter more.  this would have made abby sneaky and conniving.  lizzie would have been aware of this and would have been watching out for it. 

also i would guess that in any open conflict between abby and lizzie,, andrew would ultimately be more sympathic toward lizzie.  the daughter could get away with things that he would never have allowed the wife to get away with.  abby would probably not have wanted to humiliate herself by fighting with lizzie openly -- but she would have schemed like hell.  lizzie might have found out about it.


13. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Edisto on May-23rd-03 at 6:53 PM
In response to Message #7.

Susan, somehow your post struck me as so funny!  (I realize we're not supposed to see any humor in the Borden case, of course.)  What seems funny is that I was imagining dear Alice, whom I do admire, saying to Lizzie through her pursed little mouth, "I'm sorry, Lizzie dear, but I feel compelled to rat you out."


14. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by stefani on May-23rd-03 at 8:36 PM
In response to Message #13.

And Lizzie saying back, "Do what you will, Alice, but one day somebody is going to publish a picture of you when you are old and gray and you will forever been known as a turncoat!"


15. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on May-24th-03 at 12:16 AM
In response to Message #14.

Evening Standard
June 13, 1893  Page 3, col. 7.

"ANOTHER SURPRISE COMING.

Two Girl Friends Will Testify Against
Lizzie Borden."

..."Perhaps the hardest and most contemptible treatment accorded to any person connected with the famous trial thus far has been given Miss Alice Russell.  Correspondents, manifestly knowing little or nothing about her relations with Lizzie Borden, have called Miss Russell all sorts of cowardly names, such as false friend and informer, ignoring almost wholly how this now distracted woman has suffered because of the disagreeable case.

Although she knew the things to which she testified on the stand, she did not disclose them until she consulted Lawyer Swift concerning her rights and duties in the matter before appearing the second time before the grand jury to tell all she knew."




(Message last edited May-24th-03  12:16 AM.)


16. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by rays on May-24th-03 at 11:10 AM
In response to Message #15.

AHA!!!
So Alice DID get legal advice before testifying against Lizzie!!!
Just as I expected!!!
(Or are you playing a trick on a feeble old man?)

You know, the more you think about certain things in this case, the more you can apply your life's experience. OF course, certain people will always bad mouth others. That's part of life.
...
I wonder if there was some unreported police investigation into Alice's testimony that made her consult a lawyer? Do most witnesses do this, then or now?

(Message last edited May-24th-03  11:15 AM.)


17. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by rays on May-24th-03 at 11:12 AM
In response to Message #12.

Many times the sympathy of the Father is with the Step-Mother.
What is your experiences from relatives?
(Divorce taking the place of Death these days.)


18. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on May-24th-03 at 1:45 PM
In response to Message #16.

Ah!  You've sounded so tickled with my posts lately, Ray.  Thanks for the enthusiasm.

Yes, you're correct that Alice consulted a lawyer.  My beef with that was she probably had to pay for the advice herself, a working woman like her!

Terence wrote an article recreating the episode in his fine (and lengthy) article called All Things Swift. located at "New Research" at the site LABVM/L.:

"A Turning Point

A man who became Lizzie Borden's next-door neighbor two and a half months after her acquittal might well have changed history if in November 1892 he had said "no" to Alice Russell, instead of "yes." At that time Lizzie had been held for a little more than three months, biding her time in the Taunton jail, ten miles north of Fall River. The Grand Jury, which had been listening to witnesses and weighing evidence presented to it by the prosecution, was itself sitting in Taunton. But now it had temporarily adjourned. Upon reconvening a few days later, the influence of that "yes" spoken to Alice only days--or perhaps just hours--before would resultin their bringing an indictment against Lizzie Borden for the murders of her father and stepmother."
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Swift.htm

--This is how it starts.  Can you imagine Lizzie living as neighbor to the lawyer who represented Alice on her decision to tell *all*?
The other thing is, Alice probably didn't tell all, if she was disciplined enough to not tell about her witnessing Lizzie doing things to a dress she ought not to have, in the early stages of the Proceedings, firstly the Inquest which was to get at the facts, and next the Proceedings called the Preliminary Hearing.
To be constanyly asked, as a *friendly* witness, I'm assuming, *Any Other Fact?  *Any Other Fact*? *Any Other Fact*?, I'm surprised Alice kept her nerve!


19. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Edisto on May-24th-03 at 2:18 PM
In response to Message #17.

Divorce has taken the place of Death?  You mean if I get a divorce, I won't ever die?  Seems worth considering... (I've already had one divorce, and now that I think about it, it did give me a new lease on life.)


20. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Susan on May-24th-03 at 3:05 PM
In response to Message #13.

I'm glad what I wrote tickled you, Edisto.  I really feel for Alice, she was put between a rock and a hard place and she ended up getting the short end of the stick. 


21. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Carol on May-25th-03 at 1:51 PM
In response to Message #17.

True, Rays, the father often sides with the step-mother, I agree. One exception might be if the father is married to a pickalittletalkalittlepickpickpicktalkalotpickalittlemore type woman such as Alice Russell appears to have been. Maybe that is why Alice never married, no man would have wanted to endure the possibility that he might be turned into the police for burning up his paint stained work clothes. In Lizzie's time men would have had to stay married to complainers and gossips forever, now there is the option of divorce.


22. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by augusta on May-25th-03 at 2:02 PM
In response to Message #21.

Alice Russell was very hesitant to come forward with the information about Lizzie burning the dress.  So hesitant that she went to her attorney first for his advice, who told her to go and tell the truth.  I have read accounts of her peers stating that she was troubled by her conscience after the dress burning and did not want to tell.  I think she has been possibly misjudged because of this incident, much the same as Abby and Andrew are largely seen as one-dimensional characters.  There is not a lot of personal information out there about Alice, and many of the other characters. 


23. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by rays on May-27th-03 at 12:29 PM
In response to Message #21.

Actually, there was divorce since the early 19th century. It often required legislative action. Mostly the disgusted spouse just took off and headed west. Still occurs, nowadays (nothing personal meant).


24. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by rays on May-27th-03 at 12:32 PM
In response to Message #11.

My observation is: would Alice spend the night with a murderess? Maybe she suspected the murderer was gone, unlike Bridget who never spent another night in the house (to my recollection). Bridget was scared; "if I say anything then the guy who whacked nice Mrs Borden would come and get me" (my quotes Kat).


25. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by rays on May-27th-03 at 12:35 PM
In response to Message #19.

Now you know very well what I meant by that!!! To explain new spouses.
But if you have been bitten in the neck, you may be right.
Don't expect to see me until I've feasted on garlic.


26. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by rays on May-27th-03 at 6:54 PM
In response to Message #21.

But if Andy stuck to his daughters (like giving Lizzie authority over painting the house) that's another thing. Maybe deferring to the girls was responsible for Abby's unhappiness. (Do unhappy people compensate by eating more? I think so from my limited experience.)

Could Lizzie have been to bitchy to the painters, and they responded by that 'accident' in staining Miss Rich Bitch's dress? I wonder what you will say?

I think that we should, where probable, apply today's standards and mores to the 1890s. Ever read some books about those times? They were truly as rambunctious (best word?) as the 1960s.


27. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by haulover on May-27th-03 at 9:51 PM
In response to Message #17.

ray:

well, i think i said.  obvious difference is i'm male and knew who mother was all along.  father knew that also.  father was therefore never going to allow anything like authority over me by stepmother.  stepmother knew that and thought it was to her disadvantage, which it was.  my solution was to leave the house.  i found out later my stepmother did create problems between me and my father.  like she was trying to get me out of the way.  well, she did accomplish that much, but they were divorced not long after.

in lizzie's case, you've got someone who never knew her real mother -- so i can't relate to that.  i would think that the main reason andrew would remarry would be because he naturally thought the girls needed a mother.  that alone would not make abby a good one, of course.



28. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by haulover on May-27th-03 at 9:54 PM
In response to Message #27.

let me follow that up with this:

if andrew was a normal man of natural human affections, he would have loved his daughters more than he loved abby.


29. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Carol on May-28th-03 at 3:54 PM
In response to Message #22.

As far as I know, no one dragged Alice into the Grand Jury.  She went of her own volition because she had evidence to offer which she most likely knew would only serve to somehow implicate Lizzie in the murders not help clear Lizzie.  In the end it the trial jury didn't buy it.  I think she most likely went to an attorney not to be talked into testifying but to get legal advice on her own involvement as a witness. Only Alice Russell knows for sure why she did it.


30. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Carol on May-28th-03 at 4:03 PM
In response to Message #26.

Bridget did go back and spend Friday night in the house.

Yes, there was divorce in the 1800's but it was not the acceptable answer to a problematic marriage. Men usually wanted to keep their standing in the community and their jobs so stayed where they were, they just got a nice sweet mistress and the wives just kept complaining.

"Could Lizzie have been to bitchy to the painters, and they responded by that 'accident' in staining Miss Rich Bitch's dress? I wonder what you will say?"

This is a very interesting and new concept on the dress staining incident. From what I understood it was Lizzie who stained the dress by brushing up against a portion of the re-painted house. Are you saying that the painter waited until Lizzie was within reach and made a couple of swishes on her skirt to get back at her and she didn't realize the paint was on her dress until later and thought she had just been reckless?  What was it that Lizzie said to the painter to cause such a reaction?  Are men that vindictive?  Was he just mad because she was rich?  Was he mad because he wasn't being paid the going price by Andrew?  What do you think?


31. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by rays on May-28th-03 at 4:12 PM
In response to Message #30.

I'm reading a famous true account of a person's experiences as a sailor. He tells how the sailors would get revenge on a disliked agent by purposely positioning the boat so he would get soaked by the waves. They would act all innocent when this happened. But the others knew. The sailors were all used to getting wet. (Like those farmers who might lead a visitor into spread manure (they wear boots) then act surprised. "If they're so smart how come they stepped into the sheet?" Do not overlook rude practical jokes!!!

Like that new hatchet found on the roof next door. Sounds like another practical joke to me (but I wasn't there). You may not want to hear about stories about lunch bags.
...
Ever work in a place when a relative got a summer job, and this was resented by other workers?

(Message last edited May-28th-03  4:13 PM.)


32. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by rays on May-28th-03 at 4:15 PM
In response to Message #27.

I also heard about a relative, whose new wife was mean to her stepdaughter, and forced her out. It wasn't just Cinderella.


33. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by rays on May-28th-03 at 4:16 PM
In response to Message #28.

Surely we've all heard of cases where the husband preferred the new wife to the old children? It can go either way; maybe this depends on divorce rather than death?


34. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by haulover on May-28th-03 at 10:59 PM
In response to Message #33.

i'd like to think of moral clarity dictating preferences...........BUT a remarried person with children from a previous marriage is sometimes blinded by something in the new spouse, with the result that the children are neglected in some way, or even abused.  but abby had no children.  andrew did, and i tend to think that his marriage to abby had much to do with the fact that he needed someone to serve as mother.  apparently, it didn't work out in the long run.  but for years, it did....we can only wonder what went on during that time. we don't know enough about this.


35. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by rays on May-29th-03 at 3:09 PM
In response to Message #31.

In that 1963? book on the Trial of LB (edited by G Gross?) I read that after Andy foreclosed on the house on Second St, he called in all the carpenters whose mortgage he held and told them to work for free or he would foreclose on theirs. If Andy "hired" the painters using this same method, that may explain why they may have taken revenge via a practical joke.

Yes, this is just another speculation of mine; but based on known facts. We do know that there would be resentment to being bossed by a young lady, maybe even in these times. (What are your experiences in some auto mechanic places, ladies?)


36. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on May-29th-03 at 11:44 PM
In response to Message #35.

Ray, you'll have to find this source  before we can accept the phrase *based on known facts*.  The speculation that Lizzie's dress was stained on purpose is one thing, but that stuff about Andrew Foreclosing, forcing people to work for him, and that was how he gained title to the Seconfd Street property will have to be independently proved by you.  Thanks and good luck.


37. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by kimberly on May-29th-03 at 11:56 PM
In response to Message #35.

Um, well, it has been my experience that "auto mechanic places"
are great places to chase guys.


Is that all I ever talk about?


38. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Susan on May-30th-03 at 3:30 AM
In response to Message #35.

Whenever I have to bring my car into the shop, I call my oldest brother who is a mechanic and ask him questions about what needs to be done work-wise.  Then I bring my car in forearmed with what I need to know, my experience has been that the mechanics are quite impressed that this "little lady" knows something about cars. 


39. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by rays on May-30th-03 at 4:46 PM
In response to Message #36.

Thank you again. The "proof" is in the records, such as the 1963 "Trial of LB" by E Pearson, edited by G Gross. What about Brown and Kent, don't they repeat this story?
NB that this story would never show up in the Preliminary or the Trial unless both lawyers wanted it. What good would it do? It may be a story, but "that's the way they did it".
In g Spence's "With Justice For None" he tells about his hiring by a contractor. Andy's tricks are still in use today. Borrow goods from a supplier, then pay slowly or negotiate a lower price. What you got is then profit, after lawyers' fees.


40. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by rays on May-30th-03 at 4:50 PM
In response to Message #38.

That is very good advice for anyone. I heard one mechanic say most of them are honest, but if you don't know things, they will try to cheat you.

Some mechanics reportedly have an attitude towards single women, as I heard from a divorcee. They sort of look down on them.
The story is: men keep the motor and outsides looking great, but women keep the insides looking great. Is this more or less true?


41. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Susan on May-30th-03 at 9:48 PM
In response to Message #40.

I've actually had a couple of female mechanics before, but, they keep my car running, I keep the interior, the exterior, and the engine clean, I do it myself.  I've always been a very hands-on kind of gal, guess its what comes from having 3 brothers. 


42. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on May-31st-03 at 3:12 AM
In response to Message #39.

I am not going to go looking again.
I repeat, please give the source, no question marks to help you off the hook.  If you keep repeating this (as you have 20x) I am asking you please to give the source.  That includes publisher and date and city published.  Like in a Bibliography and which a lot of us do for each other.  Thanks again.  Will be awaiting your page niumber.


43. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by rays on May-31st-03 at 12:42 PM
In response to Message #42.

That's good. Anybody who has read widely and well know about Andy's tricks of foreclosing on people who owed him money.
The 1963 "Trial of LB" mentioned this as did many others. Have YOU never heard of this? I am not going to play the "Borden Trivia" game. Do you know of anything to suggest otherwise? Of course not!


44. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Jun-3rd-03 at 4:08 PM
In response to Message #43.

Gee, it's interesting to see the change in your posts when you've been challenged to provide back-up for your claims.  Wouldn't you say? 


45. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by haulover on Jun-3rd-03 at 11:04 PM
In response to Message #35.

i don't see how the apocryphal tales about any of them help.  just like andrew cutting off corpse's feet to fit them in caskets.  or lizzie killing cats.


46. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by rays on Jun-4th-03 at 10:22 AM
In response to Message #44.

YOU are WRONG again!!!
There is no change in my posts; I've always invited those who want to know to read the books for themselves. So can YOU.
I am not a Borden Trivia fan, and do not collect "useless facts". Anyone who doubts my facts can do their own research. You won't find them in the Prelim Hearings or the Trial; they are irrelevant then or in today's world. Unless the defendant was a victim of Andy's.

I'm sure Brown and Kent repeat the story. You may find it in the local FR paper that was not owned by Andy's peers in the local ruling class. There is such a thing as censorship, then or now.

Does ANYONE else doubt the story of Andy's foreclosure on widows and orphans? After he conned them into taking out loans?
Read the books, and take notes.

I trust this anwers your questions. That's all you get.


47. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Jun-4th-03 at 12:38 PM
In response to Message #46.

This is a slight over-reaction to my asking you for source.
You know we do that here.
You know we'd like a fair and balanced view of these characters.
Your own personal theories, which you have been sharing lately shows you are thinking for yourself.  Sometimes it seems tho that you parrot back to us *facts* unsupported by any citation, and that will tend to not only confuse us but those listening in, don't you agree?
We are not--, or I'm not, going to assume Kent got it right or Brown got it right.  And praise Kent and Brown.
My only praise for them was that they kept the story alive and therefore WE exist and now have access to their booty which are the artifacts of this case:  The Source Documents.
Why should anyone then go read someone's else opinion and swallow it whole, unquestioned, when they can make up their own mind by testimony and an understanding of the times and the town and Society's pressures and expectations at the turning of the century?  We are EQUAL to Kent and Brown here now...do you realize this?
The only difference is they are published in a physical form, yet even that, once set in stone, becomes outdated!
I think it would feel odd to publish a theory and 10 years later it is no longer supported.  It is studied and found to be in error, or a wrong assumption has been made taking an author off into an unbelievable direction.

The thing is, there ARE more current writers with theories just as valid, if not more than anything Brown could think up.

Back to you, tho.  You start by talking Borden but you end up dishing Spence or Dershowitz or your favorite defender of the week.  It's wonderful to read widely as you have inferred you have, but so have others here and you will have to accept that Brown and his ilk just don't cut it here in 2003, without support or proof for his ramblings.
To say *prove otherwise* is a non-responsive suggestion.  One can't prove or disprove, at this late date, that Lizzie was allergic to strawberries.  Or that she was afraid of the dark.  If I challanged you to disprove this you might reply it is not essential to solving the crimes, or that how could anyone know this or find this out so long after the fact?
Essentially that is what you are asking.  I know you have been asking for years.  You might as well not ask anymore because it isn't going to happen.

By the way:  I believe that every author truely believes their version of events leading up to and in the aftermath of the crimes.  I think this because I figure it is a HUGE deal to write and publish and therefore the real payoff to these folk is to consider that THEY actually solved the crime.
I know of two current authors, no 3, who each believe this and are undertaking the ardourus journey to put this info before us for our consideration...and I can bet you a nickel that each believe they are 100% right.
The point is this:
That as long as there is breath in a living breathing Bordenite, they will never be done with this case!  So shoving Brown as a final solution into everyones face is not going to get you anywhere.  You might have recognized that by now.
I think YOUR opinion is much more interesting than any author you *quote*.
I would think a man like you would fight to be able to put accross his own theory or opinion, not some dead guy who was a terrible person, to boot.


48. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by rays on Jun-4th-03 at 3:48 PM
In response to Message #47.

OK, "apology accepted". I am not making this up, but I could be fooled by memory. Just like those younger.

I believe AR Brown solved this case, because nobody ever came up with a newer and better description. (I do have one reservation, but that will come later.) I've been waiting if anyone has any new facts to disprove AR Brown's conclusion. I know this will never be proven in a court of law, and, people will still disagree (like they do about other and more recent cases).

Are "we" the equal of Brown and Kent? NO WAY!!! Because none of us has ever invested the time and effort to publish a book to solve or review this case. Yes, some would disagree even if they did!!!

But this does make for interesting discussions that test our reasoning.


49. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Jun-4th-03 at 4:21 PM
In response to Message #48.

I don't think you make stuff up.
I do believe you have read what you say, I really do!
But it is useless to us in our own determinations if there is no source as proof.
Utterly useless.
If you can find these citations then they can be evaluated.  I realize you work from notes but I have learned that a person can fool themselves by paraphrasing in their own notes and then those become useless as well.
Most authors fall into this very trap.
A simple verification and they would shine!
But with time restraints or budget problems or editing errors or poor follow-up by assistants--alll these, I undersatand, can lead to unintentional and inadvertant errors.  Such errors tho, are the bane of the scholar.  You may consider yourself a dabbler in this Borden case but quitea few here take this very seriously.  I 'm not sure you appreciate the calibre of scholarship here and how thoroughly some people know this case, including Bob G. who you claimed was *wrong*.  Whatever was *wrong* was not with Bob G.  Maybe a misunderstanding?
Yes there are equals to Kent and Brown here, take my word for it.


50. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by rays on Jun-4th-03 at 5:26 PM
In response to Message #49.

In one of Louis Nizer's books he says anyone can go through a trial transcript, disagree with the testimony, and come up with a differect solution. Note AR Brown did not disagree with the verdict, but explained it. EG "How many children has your father?", "Just Two?".

Nizer says the written word does not reflect tone and demeanor of the witness. Once the jury decides the facts, a higher court can only intervene on questions of law. Right or wrong.

As quoted in Brown's book page 53;Arthur S Phillips describes Andy: "was a man of large wealth ... mostly accumulated through his own parsimonious thrift and by means which fell within the letter of the law ..." THAT is not what they say of a moral man.

Frank Spiering's book page 8: people believed Andrew Borden. He used his earnings to buy property which he rented. If a tenant prospered, their rent was raised. [Still true today for small businesses!] Andrew purchased farmland subject to foreclosure. [All a very neutral description.] Then he tells about the family of Horace Brayton and related activities.

Again Brown page 50: "There are as many stories about Andrew Borden's money-grubbing ways as there are about Lizzie's misuse of hatchets. The difference is that the stories about Andrew are true." Page 49 tells of Andy's tricks; he was openly charged with billing the bereaved for amounts far in excess of the services furnished.

Even Martha Stewart never did anything like that!



51. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by rays on Jun-4th-03 at 5:30 PM
In response to Message #45.

Brown page 49: "he is credited with having purchased shorter coffins at a lesser price, but arranging the bodies so it wouldn't show".

Ever wonder why coffin shops sell a "one size fits all" product? Note their depth? You could just pull the knees up, or lower them, to make them fit. Ever notice how high the body is in relation to the coffin? If you bend the knees back under the body they will fit.

(This is must my observation or imagination, not a confession.)


52. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Lola on Jun-5th-03 at 1:24 PM
In response to Message #49.

I have to back Kat up on this. I am constantly AMAZED by the depth of knowledge folks here have about this case. I have to say, I give as much weight to some of the posts here as any "published" writings on the case.

I am grateful for the research you all have done, and the thoughtful opinions and sharing of knowlegde here. And I thank you for allowing me to part of it!


53. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Jun-6th-03 at 8:17 AM
In response to Message #51.

Posts 50 & 51 --well worth reading Ray.  Thanks for the sources.

Personally I am in a quandry here as I have no first-hand knowledge of funeral practices or being cheated on coffins.
I did talk to a slightly older member here about this so-called practice of short coffins or whatever and was told that was almost a superstition about undertakers and those stories go Way Way back - like folk-lore.

(Message last edited Jun-6th-03  8:20 AM.)


54. "About Andrew And Abby"
Posted by Kat on Jun-6th-03 at 8:28 AM
In response to Message #53.

It is Andrew and Abby's Wedding Anniversary! 138 years!  Do you think they would be interested in going to Vegas and renewing their vows in a chapel with an Elvis Impersonator?


55. " About Andrew And Abby"
Posted by Kat on Jun-6th-03 at 2:06 PM
In response to Message #54.

happy anniversary



(Message last edited Jun-6th-03  2:09 PM.)


56. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by rays on Jun-6th-03 at 4:11 PM
In response to Message #53.

After a death, people feel sorrow. They don't know how to handle that. So it turns to anger, and they want to find fault with somebody. [Beware of this after the next death in family!]

What was YOUR experiences? When my grandmother died decades ago, there was anger among some of her children. "She gave you more" etc. Actually, it was the previous dislikes no longer being held in check.

"What fools these mortals be."


57. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Jun-6th-03 at 4:43 PM
In response to Message #56.

Now I forgot the subject.
I know I went OT with the wedding anniversary and all, but this is beyond me.
I don't have experience with coffins and undertakers but I do have experience with death.
I was warned by the probate lawyer about fighting siblings, but twice that didn't happen in our family.  So my experiences have been deeply personal, and not warped by petty jelousies.  (I can't even SPELL jealousies)..We just didn't have that in our lives or relationships with each other.


58. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Susan on Jun-6th-03 at 5:02 PM
In response to Message #57.

My experience with death in the family and siblings was when my maternal grandmother died.  The rest of my siblings were given free reign over what to take from my grandmother's house, my mother being sole beneficiary of the will.  My mom felt bad that my brother and I couldn't be there for the free-for-all and sent us each a check for $1500.00 dollars apiece.  We were both fine with that, no squabbling over anything, I'd much prefer the cash over objects. 


59. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Doug on Jun-9th-03 at 12:25 PM
In response to Message #1.

I think Alice Russell is one of the most interesting players in a case full of interesting players. If I had an opportunity to go back in time and ask questions of just one of those involved in the Borden drama (and be assured of answers) I would be sorely tempted to choose Alice.

A close friend of both Emma and Lizzie and long acquainted with Abby and Andrew, Alice’s testimonies are at once fascinating and disappointing. She clearly recalls two of the most significant incidents that implicate Lizzie in the murders (Lizzie’s conversation with Alice on the evening of August 3; Lizzie’s burning a dress on August 7) yet Alice’s answers to other questions posed to her at both the Preliminary Hearing and the Trial are peppered with, “I don’t remember.” Beginning literally minutes after the last blows were struck to Andrew, Alice Russell was on the scene continuously for almost four days straight! Yet she seems unwilling to share even some of her most basic knowledge with the authorities.

The incident with the whittled stick is puzzling. Was it under Abby and Andrew’s bed all the time Alice occupied their room after the murders and she simply at first failed to notice it? Did police find it during a search, determine it to not be the murder weapon, and then place it back under the bed after which Alice saw it? Was the stick placed there as a silent message to Alice? If the last, who placed it and what was that message, “Watch out, you could be next!” or “In case you need to defend yourself!” or something else entirely?

One of the biggest questions I have regarding the Borden case is how and why Lizzie received such loyalty and support from people (including Alice Russell) who must have come to suspect her as the killer. While Abby and Andrew are portrayed as unappealing characters in many books and stories about the case a careful reading of other sources of information presents a somewhat different picture. There is little question that Andrew was a shrewd and successful businessman and perhaps employed some sharp methods of doing business. Yet he seems to have been respected by his business partners and his peers and loved by his various family members. Abby evidently was loved by her family (the Grays and the Whiteheads) and well regarded by her neighbors. I presume that Abby and Andrew were at the least fond of each other. It is unfortunate that an established one-dimensional picture of both Andrew and Abby obscures what their real personal qualities were and what their relationship to each other was. This relationship, and how their killer perceived it, may well have been a factor in their murders.


60. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Jun-9th-03 at 3:08 PM
In response to Message #59.

I'm with you, Doug.  Alice fascinates me, and her overcoming her ties of loyalty to the "girls" to do the right thing must have been especially difficult for her.


61. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by harry on Jun-9th-03 at 4:19 PM
In response to Message #59.

What a well written post Doug.  Along with Abby, Alice seems to be the most maligned of any of the persons in this saga.

I really don't know what Alice could have done other than what she did. I think we should remember Alice at one time lived next door to the Bordens and probably knew and liked Abby. I have no knowledge of that for sure but it would seem to me to be likely. She visited the house over a period of many years and I would doubt she would do that if Abby was unpleasant to her.

Alice appears be pretty much an average hard working lady, struggling to make a living and support her mother. It would be nice to know what Alice really thought of Lizzie's bitching of how hard she had it. Compared to Alice, Lizzie lived a pampered life.


62. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Jun-9th-03 at 6:36 PM
In response to Message #61.

I have a question.  Does this bit os testimony sound like Alice rarely sees Abby at all, or is the answer only as to seeing Abby in the guest room?

Prelim.
Alice
Q.  Had you been in the habit of visiting in that house?
A.  I have been in the habit of going there, not making any visits.
Q.  How often had you been in the habit of going there?
A.  Sometimes I would go perhaps two or three times a week, sometimes it would be two or three weeks before I went.
Q.  Who did you usually see when you went there?
A.  Emma and Lizzie; just as it happened, if they were there.
Q.  Were you on more intimate terms with the girls, or with the father and mother?
A.  With the girls.
Q.  Where did you usually see the girls?
A.  Up stairs.
Q.  Where up stairs?
A.  In what we call the guest chamber.
Q.  There was a bed in it?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  When you made calls, you called on them there in the guest room?
A.  Yes Sir; that was their sitting room.
Q.  The sitting room used by Lizzie and Emma?
Page 293
A.  I think so.
Q.  So far as you had the opportunity of seeing?
A. Yes Sir.
Q.  Is that where you usually saw them, there?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Did you often see Mrs. Borden there?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Ever see her there?
A.  Not recently. I do not remember what I have seen in all the years that I have been there.
Q.  Within a year or two?
A.  I do not think I have.
Q.  Is that where you usually made your calls, in the guest chamber?
A.  Either there, or in the girl's rooms.

------------------

--I was looking at the press recently and Alice was much maligned.  It seems she was also thought well of by some papers.
Can you imagine reading stuff like that in the paper about yourself?  Can you imagine your Mother reading that stuff?  It must have been very hard on Alice.
--Alice's uncle, Seabury T. Manley had his business in the A.J. Borden Building, c. 1890-92 (Rebello, 56) and here's an odd fact about that building:
"The building survived four fires: 1893, 1905, 1916, and 1928."
--I wonder if he was kicked out later?
--Rebello, 63:
"The Boston Journal[June 9, 1893] provided a detailed description of Miss Russell: 'a tall and stately built lady about 38 or 40, highly esteemed for her upright life, her honesty and conscientiousness ... has for 18 years, been the confidential bookkeeper for L. D. Wilbur & Co., ... business people speak highly of her gifts and qualifications, she and Lizzie were just friends, often together and attended Central Congregational Church.' Agnes deMille (Lizzie Borden, A Dance of Death, 1968: 31, 78) described Miss Russell as a 'young, red-headed Miss Alice Russell' and 'the lovely red-head Miss Russell ...' "
--Alice did provide much insight in just a few well-chosen phrases as to the relationships in the Borden household.  Whether she knew first-hand, or parrotted some of what the girls had been telling her for 5 years (or for 10 years?) it's still insight either way.


63. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by harry on Jun-9th-03 at 7:02 PM
In response to Message #62.

As I said I don't know whether she and Abby knew each other that well, but still, they knew each other some, and for quite a long time.

Lord knows what Lizzie and Emma filled up Alice's brain with about Abby. But Alice had eyes and ears and could hear and see for herself what went on in that house the times she was there.

We are not talking about Alice looking the other way if Lizzie swiped a few trinkets from McWhirrs but two horrific murders of people she at least knew to some degree.

There is also the possibility that Alice could have been charged with withholding evidence if she did not tell of the dress burning.


64. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Jun-9th-03 at 7:06 PM
In response to Message #63.

Well I have had a problem with this testimony and was not sure of it's meaning.  I would like an opinion as to the context?


65. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by harry on Jun-9th-03 at 8:07 PM
In response to Message #64.

Sounds like she never seen Abby much, or at all, when she visited the "girls" in the guest room.  That's not surprising as I never wanted my parents around when my friends came over.

Alice lived in the Kelly house from 1878 to 1891 according to Rebello. (p63)


66. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Susan on Jun-9th-03 at 9:03 PM
In response to Message #65.

Yes, I'm with Harry on this, thats what it sounds like to me too.  If Alice popped over and Bridget had the care of the front door to let people in, Alice need never to run into Andrew or Abby unless she chose to, or if they did.  So, unless Abby was going out of her way to come and say hello to Alice, there would really be no reason that Alice should see her. 


67. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Tina-Kate on Jun-9th-03 at 11:05 PM
In response to Message #66.

That house seemed to be divided to the point where it may as well have been 2 separate apts again.  At least, that seems to be how Lizzie & Emma wanted it.  Probably very likely Alice (or anyone who visited them @ home) would not see Abby nor Andrew.  Prob even more so during the 5 yrs between the Whitehead House incident & the murders.


68. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Jun-9th-03 at 11:36 PM
In response to Message #67.

So the point might be that it doesn't matter if Alice is saying she never saw Abby in the guest room, because if Alice is coming over just to see the girls and does go straight to the guest room or the girls room, then she wouldn't see Abby either way?

I had used to think this meant she just never saw Abby, period.
Then, in the context of this topic, I looked at it differently, and then it sounded like she was specifically being asked about whether Alice is used to seeing Abby in that guest room.
That's because it has been mentioned recently as also the sewing room, and Lizzie seems to imply that could be a reason she didn't see or even notice Abby being *missing* after 9 a.m. because it is suggested that maybe she is sewing in that room.
That would mean that the line of questioning was geared more toward getting at the question as to why Abby was in that room if she never goes there, and the girls have the care of that room.  So the gov. wants to know from Alice if Abby goes there.

We then really have 2 questions and two answers within the one, all geared toward the fact that Abby never was seen there by Alice, and Alice hasn't seen her lately in the past couple of years.   (?)


69. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by rays on Jun-10th-03 at 10:13 AM
In response to Message #62.

So Lizzie and Emma weren't allowed to have their friends in the parlor or sitting room?
How very 1950s (or later?) this is!
Have things changed that much since then? Do people from different age ranks visit together today unless relatives, and even not much then? WHAT is your experience in this?


70. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Jun-10th-03 at 11:43 AM
In response to Message #69.

Rays, how do you go from "I used to see them in the guest chamber; that was their sitting room" to "they weren't allowed to use the parlor?"  Sounds like a supposition to me. 


71. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by diana on Jun-10th-03 at 1:35 PM
In response to Message #62.

I'm trying to envision Lizzie, Emma, and Alice 'sitting' in the guestroom.  Did they all sit on the bed?  Perhaps Alice got to use the elusive camp chair.... or perched on the sewing machine stool.  Not a lot of room in there for three ladies in large dresses.


72. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Edisto on Jun-10th-03 at 2:58 PM
In response to Message #71.

There probably wasn't a sewing-machine "stool" if my experience is typical.  I've done sewing on all sorts of machines, including a treadle one, and I've never used a stool, nor do I know a seamstress who uses one.  One of my cabinet machines came with its own seat, and that was a straight chair.  Playing a piano requires the user to lean well forward, so a stool is a suitable seat for that activity.  The posture for sewing is different, often resulting in a lapful of fabric.  Possibly one of the chairs already described was used for the sewing machine.  When I stayed in the guest room, I don't recall what seating was there.  There was a sewing machine of the correct vintage, but I don't believe there was a seat with it.  Of course, what's in the B&B now is sometimes different from what was there in Lizzie's day.


73. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Doug on Jun-10th-03 at 3:40 PM
In response to Message #62.

Kat, I think the gist of the questions and answers you cite in message #62 is whether Alice saw Abby in the guest room when she (Alice) called at the Borden house. Perhaps Knowlton was trying to find out whether Abby was customarily included in this group of Emma, Lizzie, and Alice (and thereby clarify something of Abby's relationship with her step-daughters) when Alice came to call.

It is interesting that in her testimony Alice says she was "in the habit of going there" [to the Borden house] but "not making any visits." Apparently "visiting" implied something more than friends getting together on an afternoon or in the evening; perhaps it referred to staying overnight or for a few days.


74. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by diana on Jun-10th-03 at 5:04 PM
In response to Message #72.

I sit corrected. (Both by Edisto -- and Dolan's testimony.) My first post was based on floor plan diagrams. 

However, from what I can gather from Dolan's testimony, there were all sorts of chairs in the room. He says he thinks there was a cane-seated chair and a rocking chair in the room -- as well as the missing "upholstered" camp chair. (Preliminary Hearing,pp.197-8)

So the girls had plenty of places to sit.  That room was larger than I thought, I guess.


75. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Susan on Jun-10th-03 at 9:32 PM
In response to Message #74.

Don't feel bad, Diana, before I read that testimony I just supposed that the ladies all sat on the bed like it was a sofa or something. 


76. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Jun-10th-03 at 10:07 PM
In response to Message #75.

Oh my happy crew!
You've all figured everything out in my absence.
Bless you!.


77. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Edisto on Jun-10th-03 at 10:25 PM
In response to Message #74.

Here's an interesting piece of Victorian furniture that would have fitted in just fine in the Borden guest room (whether they actually had a similar piece or not):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=37957&item=2536403189


78. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Susan on Jun-10th-03 at 11:27 PM
In response to Message #77.

Oooo, cool piece of furniture, Edisto!  Now, if we could take off the rockers we might have something close to what was alongside the bed in the guest room!!!  Harry, Kat?  Do you think you could take that middle pic of the folding rocker, get rid of the rockers and put it in that unaltered photo of Abby where you can see the stuff in the glare?  I can't add things with my paint program unless its something I actually draw in over it.

And Kat, your absence was noticed and you were missed!  Absinthe does make the heart grow fonder. 


79. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Jun-11th-03 at 1:05 AM
In response to Message #78.

Actually, is it possible that can be the kind of rocker we need by the window?


80. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Jun-11th-03 at 2:34 AM
In response to Message #79.

I think that rocker would have to have been turned at an angle to fit there between the bureau and the window, with the bed there.

By working on the photo, I realized the rungs of the rocker would stick way out, hence I placed the rocker sideways.  That may be how the blood got past the rocker, at least.

This is a fake depiction of furniture placement approximate to testimony of Dr. Dolan at the Preliminary Hearing...see LABVM/L, Crime Library, Blood Evidence.



(Message last edited Jun-11th-03  2:35 AM.)


81. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Susan on Jun-11th-03 at 2:44 AM
In response to Message #80.

Wow!  Thanks, Kat!  Thats what I envisioned, great job!  You're now hired to replace me.  Once again, it looks like its a foot between Abby's head and the chair and not between her and the wall.  I am so impressed! 


82. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Jun-11th-03 at 3:34 AM
In response to Message #81.

Thanks.
Yes it seems so.
How the hell did any MAN fit there in that small(er) space now that we have the furniture back??!!


83. "Re: About Alice and Lizzie"
Posted by Susan on Jun-11th-03 at 3:46 AM
In response to Message #82.

I don't know?  But, thats why I find it so helpful to truly set the scene as close as possible to what was actually there that day.  Kind of gives you a bit more perspective on the amount of space that was there where Abby was laying on the floor.