1. "Andrew's Paper"
Posted by augusta on Dec-28th-03 at 1:05 PM

Andrew was supposed to be reading the newspaper when he was on the sofa when he was killed.

Where did the paper go?

Are there any photos that show it still clutched in his hand?  Is it another Lizzie (alleged) lie?

maybe that is what I see on the couch next to him
(did my smiley face work?)

If the newspaper was of good quality, it went to either the basement WC or the privy behind the barn. You know the details.

Yes it worked.  It looked like a *surprised* face?
Where do you see the paper? 

(Message last edited Dec-30th-03  2:02 AM.)

I am looking at the picture in Kent's book "Andrew J. Borden, as his
body was found", same picture as in all the books.  Don't you see
something jutting out under his right arm, sticking out past
the cushion?  Seems if he were going to lay down, he would have
moved this "thing"?  do you see it?

It looks like Andrew's jacket, folded back and some lining exposed.




(Message last edited Dec-30th-03  7:39 PM.)

(Message last edited Dec-30th-03  7:40 PM.)

if it were just part of his jacket, what are the things with
holes sticking out?  maybe it was something in his pocket?
there are definite circle things in the object that is sticking out.

You're welcome.
And it could be something else.  That's just what I see.
If you are referring to the first drawing from the newspaper, which started your wondering, it looks solid to me? 

(Message last edited Dec-31st-03  5:53 AM.)

I usually give it time to see if other's have an opinion.  I will wait to see if someone see's something as well.

Yes, there is something there that has holes in it.  At least, that's what I see.  Maybe Andrew played the saxophone. 
It's funny to me, because how many times have I seen this photo - or have I??* - and I never once noticed this.  Highly interesting.

*have I seen this exact photo, I'm meaning.  The bodies were moved around a little sometimes.  Maybe someone stuck something there after the first photos were taken.   ...   "Here, Seabury.  Stick this under old Borden so we can move him easier to our makeshift autopsy table."  "B-b-b ... I'm s-sorry; I'm a little sh-shaken.  B-b-ut it's a s-s-s-axophone!"  "Perfectly all right.  If nothing else it'll confuse people in years to come."

Do you see anything in the artist's rendition in the very first picture?
That is the thing which NJ wondered about.
The drawing is clear there is no saxaphone. 

(Message last edited Dec-30th-03  10:41 PM.)

I dunno.  It could be a saxophone... 

I thought NJ was referring to David Kent's "40 Whacks" instead of the "Sourcebook".  

I think part of the problem is that Andrew is wearing a dark colored vest with that dark cardigan jacket over it, hard to tell where one begins and the other leaves off.  To me, it looks like part of the jacket, could those be frogs?  Its his at home jacket, could it be like those Victorian smoking jackets with those fancy frog closures?

Looking at a photograph of Andrew-on-the-couch from the Fall River Historical Society, I observe the following items:

1.Arm of sofa
2.Small antimacassar
3.Andrew's Prince Albert Coat (bunched up?)
4.Pillow
5.Large antimacassar
6.Andrew's bloody head (God rest his soul!)

PS No saxophone

(Message last edited Dec-31st-03  9:34 AM.)

Yes, but everyone has missed the Elephant in the sitting room. It was right in back of the camera, and a very small one.

Yes, this is a little humor, "very little" as some will say.

ha ha everyone having fun making fun of my object, but there
is something there, rectangular, that is not a frog or sax or
elephant.  It could be a kind of purse or holder for documents,
like the will?  Maybe that is what got burned in the stove later?

i see what you are talking about - it does look a bit odd, but i think it is just Andrew's coat with the lining showing -  i looked with a photo lupe, but still couldn't get a clear view  - (i did see the elephant tho ). could the circular things be a store or  maker's label?  i think at the time a jacket like that would have been purchased ready-made rather than sewn at home.

I agree mainly because that really looks like lining to me, but also because in the drawing there is no room for another interpretation and it seems that by including the photo, it added to the mystery rather than solving it.  I think the newsprint artist drew something very sinple which he saw and that is what we see.
Meaning, the drawing will be a better depiction than the photo because the artist is trained to include detail whereas the photo has a lot of problems with perspective and lighting.
(I don't mean all drawings are that good- but this one seems to be- we do have the drawing with a door in the north wall in the guest room.)

It's like at an archaeological site.  They take a picture of the object, but they also draw it and describe it in words, reason being the photo may not provide complete detail that a long assessment, visually, would note, & being trained for that.

(Message last edited Jan-2nd-04  10:14 PM.)

I dunno folks, that object is definitely sticking right out past
the cushion, a lining or any fabric would just flop down, not stick
out straight and rectangular like that.  But ok, I won't beat a
dead horse! 

Andrew was found with money on him.  Could it be possible that that was the pocket he kept his wallet?  Men's wallets were different then, they didn't fold like modern ones, they were more like a checkbook.  Though this one may not be of the right era, it gives you an idea of what they looked like.
 

I have my Dad's "safe box" he gave me, his Dad probably gave it to
him. It is a small rectangular box and it does have weird circles on the ends. No lock, just a safe box
from fire I guess.  It would make sense Andrew would have that near
him at that time.  Of course the butcher wouldn't notice that.  Lizzie
did and alerted her friend and neighbor dear Dr. Bowen, who burned the contents in the stove.  How's that? 

In the Preliminary Hearing, which some have and some don't, is Winwood, the Undertaker, telling about where he took from Andrew, his possessions
(It is called a "pocket book"):

Prelim
Winwood
Page 386

JAMES WINWOOD.

Q.  (Mr. Knowlton)  What is your name?
A.  James Winwood.
Q.  You are an undertaker?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Did you have something to do with the bodies of Andrew J. Borden and Mrs. Borden?
A.  I had charge of them, yes sir.
Q.  Were you the one who removed the effects from the body?
A.  I took the things out of Andrew J. Borden's clothes.
Q.  Did you give whatever you took to Dr. Dolan?
A.  I did.
Q.  Without bothering to produce them, will you kindly tell me what they were, in the shape of valuables?
A.  I think there was $78. in bills in the pocket book.
Q.  In a pocket book?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  What pocket was that pocket book in?
A.  In the inside pocket in the coat, I should think.
Q.  In the coat pocket?
A.  Yes Sir, inside pocket, inside the coat.
Q.  Not inside the vest. What else in the shape of valuables?
A.  In that pocket there was some minor papers, which we did not examine into, just opened them, and saw there was no more money in there, or notes. That is all we examined for.
Q.  There was a watch and chain?
A.  Yes Sir, in his vest.
Q.  Anythingelse?
A.  In his pants pockets some loose change, two or three dollars in silver.
Q.  What size bills were these?
A.  I think about $5.
Q.  All in bills?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Whatever you took, you turned over to Dr. Dolan, the Medical Examiner?
A.  Yes Sir.

Thanks, Kat, I tried to find where that was written earlier and couldn't locate the source.  So Andrew's pocketbook was kept in his coat pocket, could it have been the one he was laying on and therefore made that portion of his coat stick out straighter than the rest? 

I picture an inside breast pocket.  High on the chest.  That's the way coats were made with inside pocket-placement.
I wonder what they found in the Prince Albert coat pockets?
Whatever might have been there, we are not told.

It is almost inexplicable to me that a business man would come home for a rest and dinner, go to his room, and then relax on the downstairs sofa with everything still in his pockets!
If he didn't go to his room, it would make more sense, but still, what was he holding on to everything for?  Another appointment?
And Lizzie tells Bridget that if she goes out please lock the door, because Mrs. Borden is out and she, Lizzie, may go out- so where does Andrew fit into that scheme?  He's not mentioned.
Then Lizzie proceeds to go out and leave the screen door unlocked?  What is that?

Yes, you know, they didn't make it particularly clear if the pocketbook was found in the Prince Albert coat or in Andrew's cardigan jacket he was wearing?  It sounds as though it was the items found on Andrew's body.

I've been trying to do a search on men's lounging or house jackets like the cardigan one Andrew was wearing.  Lizzie calls it a "reefer" in her Inquest testimony.  I found this cutting guide for a reefer, it does seem to be quite a finished jacket.  Those weird things we see in the photo of Andrew may just be the stitched button holes, check how they are done on this illustration, its big, so heres the link.
http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/1898cutterspracticalguidepart1/77.jpg

From this site: http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/1898cutterspracticalguidepart1/77.jpg

I've asked some of the men I know and it seems to be a pretty even split, some empty their pockets when they get home; keys, wallet, etc. are taken out and put somewhere and there are those who keep everything on them.

Yes, we discussed that in the past and I don't think we ever quite came up with an answer.  Was Andrew due to go back out to work after his dinner (lunch) or was he home for the day then?  Was that statement a slip-up by Lizzie knowing that Andrew would be dead and the house would be unguarded?  Or was it merely something like you know how my father is, if you go out be sure to lock the door and cover your butt.  Mrs. Borden is out and I may go out too, and if father finds a door unlocked with everyone out, heads will roll!

That screen door only had an interior hook on it, so, I don't think it could have been locked from the outside.  I wonder if Lizzie had a key to the side door?  I guess if she wanted to appear thorough she could have closed and locked the side door when she took her alleged trip to the barn.  But wasn't that part of her plan, shes out in the barn and the killer slips out in the few moments shes out of view of the side door.  She comes back to find the screen door open like it had been used.  It sounds like she needed some sort of escape route for the killer and despite the house rules about locking doors had to leave it that way for her story to work. 

One item from a long time ago was the "farmer's purse". It was a change purse that was about six inches deep (clasp closure on top). It could hold a lot of coins. Remember, $5 to $10 a week for laboring men in those days, the 5 cent beer and free lunch.

That satisfies me, that Andrew was carrying a type of pocketbook
and that is what I see sticking out.  Working at a bank, he might
have gotten a rectangular type folder to keep his papers in so he
didn't have to splurge on a "pocketbook". ? 
Since it was only 11 AM, I doubt Andrew would have "emptied his
pockets" as he would do that in the evening. 

The pocket book was taken from an interior pocket.

As Andrew was sick the day before and missed a meeting, Thursday would be his first day out and about.  We hear of no plans for his going out again that day after he returned.  I'd think that resting and having a noon meal, after already checking his business contacts in town, he would settle in for the rest of that day, at least.
Remember, Andrew may not have gone out at all that day, except Lizzie asked him to mail her letter (which she did not give to Morse who practically lived at the post office).  The PO was right at the end of Andrew's street and he didn't think he'd go.
It's the idea of relaxing with money and watch and change in his pockets, and a keyring with keys, which seems uncomfortable, on the hard sofa and with a hernia.

He also had tobacco on him.
I think he might have been thinking someone was coming?

I have not heard that Andrew had a Hernia?  A lot of speculation
here Kat, it was only 11 AM, my Dad is 80 and is a ball of fire all
day.  I don't think we can suppose Andrew was done for the day at 11AM. 

It's not speculation. The autopsy report on Andrew states that he had a Inguinal Hernia.

"Body that of a man well nourished. Age seventy years. 5 feet 11 inches in height. No stiffness of death on account of decomposition, which was far advanced. Inguinal hernia on right side."

A definition of a Inguinal Hernia can be found here:

http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/inguinalhernia/index.htm

Oops Harry, we crossed in the mail.

For my sources:

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/CrimeLibrary/AutopsyAndrewBorden.htm
"Inguinal hernia on right side. "

Inquest
Lizzie
59
Q. What was the next thing that happened after you got down?
A. Maggie went out of doors to wash the windows and father came out into the kitchen and said he did not know whether he would go down to the post office or not. And then I sprinkled some handkerchiefs to iron.
Q. Tell me again what time you came down stairs.
A. It was a little before nine, I should say about quarter; I don't know sure.
Q. Did your father go down town?
A. He went down later.
Q. What time did he start away?
A. I don't know.

...
56
Q. Where was your sister Emma that day?
A. What day?
Q. The day your father and Mrs. Borden were killed?
A. She had been in Fairhaven.
Q. Had you written to her?
A. Yes sir.
Q. When was the last time you wrote to her?
A. Thursday morning, and my father mailed the letter for me

.......

Prelim
Dolan
183
Q.  I do. You took some keys?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  A bunch?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  That is to say, they were on a key ring?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  In what pocket were they?
A.  I did not take them myself.
Q.  Did you see them taken?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Who gave them to you?
A.  The undertaker.
.......

Prelim
Morse
237
Q.  Mr. Borden knew you was going over?
A.  Yes Sir, I invited him to go with me.
Q.  How did you find Mr. Borden’s health that day?
A.  He was sick, indisposed, laying on the lounge.
Q.  That is when you got there?
A.  That is when I got there.
...........
Witness Statements
29-30
"Mr. Everett Cook of the First National Bank gives the following statement." “Andrew J. Borden came to this Bank somewhere about 10 o’clock; it might be as early as 9.50. He does his business with us. That morning he deposited a check which was made payable to him by the Troy Mills. While making this deposit, Mr. William Carr came in. They talked together a few minutes, and Mr. Borden left the Bank. He was here not more than ten minutes. While he was here I noticed that be looked tired and sick; knowing him so well, I could not help noticing that he looked real sick. I did not speak to him about it, because I thought he might consider it none of my business. He was alone when he came and went away from the bank.”
.....
W.S.
29
"Fall River, August 7, 1892."
"Andrew J. Borden visited the Union Saving Bank about half past nine A. M. Thursday, and explained to Mr. A. C. Hart the reason of his (Mr. Borden’s) inability to attend a meeting of the Board of Directors which be said was because he did not feel well. He remained but a few minutes, and went north from the bank. He was alone when he came and went away from the Bank."
........

I am stringing facts together trying to make some sense of them.
That is what I do.
I am basing my *speculation* on testimony and my knowledge of the case.






(Message last edited Jan-4th-04  9:55 PM.)

Thanks, Kat, for all the info.  But, I'm still curious as to what was considered a full day for Andrew if he wasn't ill, would he be out and about after his noon meal normally or were the morning visits all there was to his business day?  Mind you, I'm not laying this yoke on your shoulders to figure out, I'm curious if anyone has any info on this.  I've read before that Andrew was considered semi-retired, an author's word, but, was he in reality?  He was due to be in a board meeting which to me sounds like he was an active member and not just a figurehead.  It would be helpful to have Andrew's daily itinerary, did his illness play a part in his murder or was he normally home at that time for the rest of the day?   

I don't know Andrew's typical day.  I don't think we have that information unless it's in the newspapers.

It's funny, because I was working steadily toward figuring out, in a side issue, if I really consider that Andrew was at least sitting up when attacked, which is contrary to the Medical Examiner's view and some here believe this without source and only as opinion.

It's something I stuggle with- going against testimonial evidence.  I don't usually.  I'm creeping up on this reaonably and  yet get no positive critique.

While the ME's expert testimony is the "best evidence", what was the distribution of the blood spots on the wall? They should cluster around the spot where Andy's head lay when struck.

It is frustrating not to be able to piece together a "typical" day for Andrew.  Or for any of the other principals in this case, either, when you think of it.  I think in Andrew's case -- we're hampered a bit because he was ill just before the fateful day -- so we know he wasn't doing as much as he would normally. For example, Morse's testimony about asking Andrew to accompany him on his visit to the farm indicates that perhaps this was something that would happen if Andrew was in better health.

Masterton claimed that it was Andrew's custom to be home to meet with people on business just before noon.  And when we tried to source this further on the forum in July/02, Harry found an item in the New Bedford Evening Standard (August 29,1892) stating that the sisters claimed: "Mr. Borden always received his business callers between 11 and 12 o'clock in the morning."

Jonathon Clegg visited with him on the two days prior to the murders and testified he "knew he had got to see him [again] in the forenoon" of the 4th so was "on the lookout for him" that morning.(Prelim.,213) So there are some indications that he still conducted business on a daily basis. But, you're right Susan, I can't think of anything that illuminates Andrew's daily routine after the noon meal.

 

This suggests Andy was not getting enough fiber in his diet. Or will Kat prove that I'm wrong on this?

Less fiber = hard stool = more straining. "An apple a day keeps the doctor away"?
...
James Michener, who lived to 90, said he always ate one or more servings of coleslaw each day. I recommend this to all of you.

(Message last edited Jan-5th-04  4:24 PM.)

Thanks, Diana.  So if that item in the paper is correct, sick or not, Andrew tended to be home before 11 o'clock to conduct business from his home.  Yes, we really don't have much to work with on anyone's daily activities except for Bridget perhaps, we know her day pretty much centered on cleaning and cooking meals, when her laundry day was, etc.  Wish the police were a little more thorough with their questioning about the normal routines of these people. 

I'm still thinking about this.
If Andrew was right-handed, he might carry his keys and change in his right pants pocket.
He would possibly carry his pocketbook in his left breast pocket.
We can see his watch and chain acros his vest in the photo.
So he is lying on his right side, and his hernia is on his right side and his fullest pockets of his pants may be on his right side.  THat sounds very uncomfortable!

Now, there is a pillow on that side of the couch with an antimacassar on it which implies that somewone does lay their head not only down on it, but on that side of the sofa, usually rather than the other side.

So it could still be a normal resting postion for Andrew.  When Morse came Wednesday he said Andrew was lying on the lounge.
Maybe Thursday, if Andrew was lying down, the things in his pocket were distributed so that it didn't hurt?
It just seems that if he were sickish and resting, he would have emptied his pockets.  Then he could go back up after dinner and retrieve his belongings if he felt he had to go out again...

Another thing...a question:

When I lived in Boston it shocked me to find out that the banks closed at noon until 2 p.m.  They closed for 2 hours, anyway, whether my times are off a bit.
Maybe the banks closed from noon till 2 as well, in 1892.  If so, and Andrew had usually gotten home at 11 for visitors at home, he wouldn't be missing anything much in the banking departments until after 2 anyway.  Meaning f he was compelled to go back downtown (Tho he is considered retired) he wouldn't even need to go until later in the afternoon, on any typical day.

BTW:  When was the stock market opened?

I once read that stores and businesses in Spain and Italy closed from noon to 3pm for lunch. People would go for a home-cooked meal. But they then stayed open to 8pm? That has probably change in the last 20 years, but it still makes sense to eat and nap during the hottest times of the day. "Only mad dogs ... go out in the noonday sun"?

I wonder what they do in the really hot places in Arabia?

We were talking about routines in this topic.
I found that  Jonathan Clegg, in the Preliminary Hearing, pg. 215, says that he thinks Andrew was at his North Main Street store "after dinner", on Tuesday.
He's pretty sure it was after dinner, which would be after the noon meal.
Now Tuesday was the day Clegg was making the deal for the new store, according to him.
So Clegg visited Andrew Borden at his home Tuesday, saw him after dinner Tuesday at his (old) store, and saw him again on Wednesday at his home.  Tuesday he was let in by Andrew and Wednesday by Bridget (Trial174), but he doesn't say what time.

Also, I had thought Andrew did not go downtown at all Wednesday because he was sick.  But I recall someone saying they saw him Wednesday- maybe one of those banking cohorts?
I haven't found this yet.  I thought it was Clegg- that's how I found the record of Clegg's business with Andrew that week.
It had been wondered if Andrew normally did business after the noon meal- it seems if needed- he did- according to Clegg.
........

We also wondered about the post office and whether they delivered the mail and/or the newspaper...
In Images of America- Fall River, pg. 18 says the first free delivery of the mail in Fall River was in 1863.  (I'm assuming "Free Delivery" means to the home?)

We don't know if that included Pick-Up of mail from the home, tho!

Jeesh.  It was Charles Cook who says he saw Andrew Wednesday. 
Is it possible he is mistaken?

From this bit of testimony, it sounds as if Andrew saw Charles Cook before the noontime on Tuesday, and we find that after dinner that same day Andrew met with Clegg.  Maybe he met with Cook to draw a lease and then applied it to Clegg Tuesday or Wednesday.
Clegg kept that new store location at least thru the trial 10 months later, so Andrew's death did not change that deal.


Page 103   (206)

CHARLES C. COOK.

Q.  (Mr. Knowlton.)  Charles C. Cook is your name?
A.  It is.
Q.  What is your business Mr. Cook?
A.  Insurance.
Q.  Did you have any business relations with Andrew J. Borden?
A.  Yes sir.
Q.  What were they?
A.  I had charge of his building on the corner of Anawan and South Main Street.
Q.  That is a block he has erected within a year or two, a business block?
A.  Yes sir.
Q.  Were you in the habit of seeing him often?
A.  Yes sir.
Q.  How often?
A.  Well, three or four times a week.
Q.  Do you remember the day of the murder?
A.  Yes sir.
Q.  Did you see him on that day?
A.  I did not.
Q.  You did not see him that day?
A.  Not until afterwards.
Q.  You saw him dead?
A.  Yes sir.
Q.  You did not see him alive?
A.  No sir.
Q.  Did you see him the day before the murder?
A.  I saw him I think going down Main Street, on the other side of the street from the building, as I stood in the office.
Q.  What day was that?
A.  That would be Wednesday.
Q.  What time of day?
  (207)
A.  I think in the forenoon, I do not remember the time.
Q.  When was the last time you saw him to have any talk with him?
A.  Tuesday I think; I know it was Tuesday.
Q.  Tuesday afternoon or morning?
A.  Tuesday forenoon.
Q.  Where did you see him then?
A.  In the office.
Q.  Tuesday before the murder in the forenoon?
A.  Yes sir.
Q.  You had some talk with him that time?
A.  Yes sir.
Q.  Did you have any talk with reference to a will?
A.  No sir.
Page 104   (207)

Q.  Anything said by him about a will?
A.  Not that day.
Q.  When was it anything was said about a will, if ever?
A.  There was nothing ever said only this ----
Q.  My question is, when?
A.  I do not remember the date, sometime before that.