1. "Angle Of Attack"
Posted by Kat on Jun-3rd-03 at 3:26 AM

Stef came over to help with my DSL.  She's my hero because she also came to help Friday, but they fooled us both times.
Now she will be coming again!

Well, put 2 Koorey girls together in a room and one is on hold on the phone, and the other attacks with a cane as the hatchet.

Really.

I was on my hands and knees between the couch and the coffee table, and had a round thing pressed above my left ear to simulate the flap wound.  The rounded outer edge was to be the cut and we imagined the flap.
I had the autopsy open to Abby.

Anyway, that angle of attack, with Abby on her knees to make the flap wound just wouldn't work.
I am surely less *fleshy* than Abby and surely over a decade younger, and so more flexable.  I could not turn my upper body around far enough to look over my left shoulder to receive that
flap wound.
I ended up schooching around on my knees toward her, and schooched some more and then more and then I was literally facing her head-on before the angle was right for the flap-wound.  I doubt Abby scootched several times in that small space in order to see who was behind her.

The final determination from OUR experiment was Abby was standing and facing her attacker to get hit in the face/scalp-line, to receive a flap wound just 3" above the left ear-hole.
After that, is anybodies guess.
But that means Abby fell.*  And we have all surmised how much noise THAT would make.
Maybe she fell a bit on the bed which would cushion a noise of a fall?  There was hair found there.
I was Abby, and so relied on Stef's angle of attack and what SHE saw and experienced, as the assailant.
Maybe next she comes over she can be Abby so I can see the angles for myself.

*Abby had to be standing, because when I was Abby on my knees finally facing the assailant, if I was hit at that point, in the amount of room I had, I would merely have fallen backward and face-up.  That's how it worked here, anyway.

I've always thought it most probable that Abby got that "flap" wound (which I've never imagined to be a facial wound) while standing and facing her attacker.  That's what the contemporary experts thought.  However, it doesn't sound to me as if that would be a mortal wound, or probably even knock Abby out.  It sounds as if the attacker basically missed and just cut a flap of skin/scalp when he/she had meant to deliver a more resounding blow.  It might well have stunned Abby briefly and almost certainly it hurt quite a lot.  It probably caused her to think, "This so-and-so means business."  A good reason to seek a quick escape route or a shelter from the blows to come.  IMHO, that first "flap" wound doesn't preclude Abby's having gone down on all fours and tried to crawl under the bed.  That would explain why nobody heard her hit the floor.  The only other logical explanation that I can think of is that there was so much noise on Second Street that morning that it drowned out the sound of her fall. However, I think her fall would probably have literally shaken the house if it had been from a standing position.

i think abby got the flap wound standing facing the attacker.  immediately she threw her hands up and turned -- and with that, she was knocked down bodily like a felled tree.  i've never believed that she crawled around on the floor in any way.

The investigative team of Koorey & Koorey.  What happens when 2 Bordenites get together.

Have you ever noticed sometimes people outside yr family don't get the shared interest?

I got my copy of Victoria Lincoln the day before my b-day & was reading it on the bus going up north.  My neice's boyfriend asked me about my Lizzie obsession, but it was my neice who was truly interested.  We got deeply into discussion about it, & her boyfriend got so freaked out he left the backyard...almost as if he was being forced to listen to 2 women discuss girlie things.

I've always thought it was most logical the attack on Abby occured when Bridget was safely in the yard out of earshot.

  Thats great, you two sound like me and my experiments!  Only every so often can I persuade someone to be a part of my little tests, it is so helpful.  That has been my line of thinking, if Abby was dealt the flap wound standing, perhaps she slid down the side of the bed to the floor.  Abby also has that one wound on the crown of her head, my thought is that one must have been delivered with Abby on her knees, I don't think there would have been enough room between the camp chair and her head to swing the hatchet down through to strike her thusly.  Good work! 

I just viewed Histories Mysteries, hosted by Arthur Kent in the red shirt, and our own Bill Pavao was in it at the beginning.  Was that the first documentary to be videoed inside the Borden house?

Anyway, Abby was depicted as on her knees, dusting around the bottom of the bureau.  She is first facing the camp-chair wall (east) and then makes dusting motions more toward the western wall.  The attack is not shown.  Just a blurred hatchet coming down, going up, coming down outside our view.

Someone responsible for that video had Abby on her knees.

.................
We did not think that flap wound was fatal at all.  I believe it is mostly sub-cutaneous?

Then if she was standing facing, flings herself away from the threat with her hands coming up to protect her face, she has time to yell and time also to defend, maybe?  Maybe she made the wrong instant choice since she was already cornered.
My first priority was to determine how Abby got those bruises, but this re-enactment superceeded that and I didn't figure that out yet.

I think now there was delay in killing Abby, & there would have been noise, and there might have been a thud of her falling.

PS:  Sorry Susan you weren't there as I was composing this post.

(Message last edited Jun-3rd-03  12:00 PM.)

I don't recall there being much blood evidence on the camp chair outside of the legs being covered with blood.  But, was just thinking, what if Abby fell from her standing position to her knees and then fell face forward against the wood rim of the seat of the camp chair causing the bruising on the bridge of her nose.  She gets whacked with the hatchet on the crown of her head, I don't think that one went through the skull, she puts her arms up on the chair seat and turns her head to the side and tries to get up and starts getting whacked, once, twice causing the parallel bruising over her left eye.  Then, the killer goes at it full force giving the rest of the blows.  Abby's body can be seen over the top of the bed resting on the chair seat as it is, the killer grabs Abby's ankles and pulls her down to the floor and when her arms fall they are over her head as described when first found.  Any blood evidence noted anywhere for that camp chair? 

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/AutopsyAbbyBorden.htm

2.   Was exactly on top of the skull one inch long penetrating into but not through the skull.

3.  Was parallel to No. 2, one and 1/2 inches long, and penetrating through the skull.

--So there are 2 wounds to the top of the head that we should account for.  The camp chair pictures you provided , and one of which I picked to use in the photo collage,  had a recessed rung or crossbar near the foot and also a rung or crossbar along the edge of the seat and that edge of the seat is where I thought maybe would be where Abby got the contusions.  A rounded surface shaped like a rung could enter the indented part of the bridge of the nose.  That is what I pictured.  http://www.arborwood.com/awforums/show-topic-1.php?start=51&fid=27&taid=1&topid=1328
Post 55

I didn't account for the 2 blows to the top of the head, but you may be able to.
My problem with this scenerio as to Abby falling on a rung of the chair was that the attack supposedly happened closer to the window, as there was blood there on the molding, around the corner of the bureau.  Plus the body was found 4 to 5 feet, supposedly from the east wall.  If you posit that the attack happened closer to the chair and thus the east wall, then you had to explain why the body was found so far away from that wall.  Dragging the body back by the feet seems barely likely.  I doubt the dress skirts could have been arranged, and the apron, due to her weight, plus that blood matter was surrounding her head where she was found.
There was no mention of blood on the upolstry of the chair, which there would have been if at any point in the attack part of the chair supported any part of her body.


Prelim., Dolan, partial blood evidence, guest room:

..."On the moulding, the piece of moulding east of the north window, that is the moulding that caps the mop board, about five or six inches from the casing, there was a spot of blood.
...
On the moulding that caps the mop board. Above that, about two feet, there was a spot on the paper.
From the head they would be between six and seven feet at an angle, that is, the dressing case formed an angle, the body lying here, the spots were over here.
...
There was a straight line, but the dressing case intervened [No uninterrupted straight line].
...
I found on the east wall that is up against the head of the bed, where the head of the bed was, I found three or four spots there on the wall, and some on the moulding of the mop board.
...
Pg. 116:
[She was lying with both hands] more extended over the head, as it were, not over it, but around the head.
...
Yes but not resting on the arms; the head in a circle.
...
Pg. 197:
I am glad you spoke of that chair that is lacking from the photograph. There was a kind of camp chair, you might call it, an upholstered chair between her head and the east wall; and the feet of that were covered with blood.".....


--It seems as if more blood was found closer to the east wall and the chair legs, than was found near the window.  So the first attack (1st blow free) could have been near the window standing, but whatever she went through defensively before she died, she still ended up 4 feet at least away from that east wall where the head of the bed was and where the chair legs received the blood.
--I think we are getting closer.  I'm not satisfied yet though..
--Don't stop.  I can really SEE what you explain.


(Message last edited Jun-5th-03  6:56 AM.)

kat and susan:

i hope you continue this conversation.  i won't interject for a while.  i'm learning something from it.  thanks.  it looks like i'm going to have to "unlearn" something and learn.  how exciting.

OkyDoky
Here's Doherty at Prelim., pg. 330+, talking about seeing Abby for the first time with Dr Bowen, in the guest room.  How do we account for this?

Q.  As you saw her there, how far was her head from the wall towards which her head was pointed, that would be the east wall of the room?
A.  That would be a foot I think.
Q.  Between her head and the wall?
A.  I did not take particular notice. I might say that; I will say that.

--He says he pulled the bed away because she filled up the space.  Then he went to telephone and when he returned Dr. Dolan was there.  That's when we switch to Dolan's evidence which contradicts Doherty.
--There was not enough room within that *foot* space for even the camp chair.

From looking at this photo of Abby and trying to take a measurement off of her, from earhole to the top of her head, average measurement on an average person is about 5".  Using that it appears to be about 2 and a half feet from Abby's head to about the wall.  I tried (very badly) to put in a camp chair approximately where it would sit in relation to Abby and the dresser.  Being very visual, it helps me to have something like this to look at.  So, perhaps Doherty was remembering the amount of space between Abby's head and the camp chair? 



(Message last edited Jun-7th-03  6:28 PM.)

Jeez, she looks so pitiful laying there. A little
bundle scrooched up on the floor. You think Lizzie
hated her that much? If you thought about killing
someone & started after them -- doesn't it seem like
you would take pity on them when you injured them &
they scrambled away & were hurt? But I guess after
you start to kill someone you have to finish it if you
expect to get away with it. Was Lizzie really a maniac?????
Killing people is "evil" to me -- you can't just be half
a killer, I'm talking about murder & not self defense
or any of that, just plain old murder.





(Message last edited Jun-7th-03  7:09 PM.)

Lizzie didn't do this!  Everyone on this forum (except Rays)
believes Lizzie did it,  Not possible, No Way. 

Great picture Susan.  Sometimes just adding a new element will shed a new light, or emphasize the horror of a shot we've all seen many times before...as you can see from the reactions!

It's pretty much impossible to say what another person is or is not capable of.  You have to be that person.  I don't see why Lizzie would be any less capable of this than anyone else.

I've found it hard to imagine being able to commit a murder, esp 1 like this.  Certainly there must have been a tremendous amount of rage.  I still don't discount there may have been drug use involved.

I doubt everyone on the Forum believes Lizzie did this.
I myself change my mind all the time.
I have held 3 differing theories in a year with all kinds of permutations.
What I do think a lot of members who post think, is that very probably Lizzie knew all about this, either before, during, or after.
That would tend to make her accessory.  Under the law I think the punishment and the degree of guilt is equal to the *principal*.  So under that assumption, Lizzie did this yes.

That is a SUPER job there Susan.  You're Hired!

Wow, I guess a picture is worth a thousand words.  Thanks Tina-Kate and Kat.  I got a similar reaction with the form of the chair there, it made Abby seem all the more real and small and pathetic laying crushed on the floor. 

Can you put a chair in this picture?

I'm not 100% convinced about Doherty getting it wrong when he says Abbie's head is a foot from the wall when he saw her.




(Message last edited Jun-8th-03  6:53 PM.)

I agree that Lizzie had something to do with it. I've posted
that belief several times. I have to be honest and say that
this forum is very intimidating, I consider myself a real
"Lizzie buff" and have read a lot, yet I am nowhere up to speed
with most of you folks.  I refrain from posting too much because
I don't want to become a punching bag for you experts! (btw
what happened to Carol?) 

Oh we won't punch you.
Do you think, then, that if Lizzie knew, then she is culpable?
Maybe different people have differing views on degree of guilt.
I would think that the regular population of voting adults in this country would probably have differing views on that very subject, and probably have debated such a point since time began.
Post, ask questions, give your opinion..we're here.

Yes I do think Lizzie is guilty in that sense, and should
have been punished if they could find the proof.  There was
a true crime in my neighborhood, the Masters case, where the
husband was sent to jail for setting up his wife's murder although
his hands were clean.  I think we all have to admit the fact
that Lizzie's hands and dress etc. were clean. 

Well, not quite everyone on this Forum believes Lizzie did it.  I have a lot of questions in my mind, although I'm not ready (like Arnold Brown) to say definitely that she was innocent.

***I refrain from posting too much because
I don't want to become a punching bag for you experts! (btw
what happened to Carol?)***

please don't worry about that.
 

Did she go to the guest room?

Does anyone recall seeing an actual photo of that camp chair?  I seem to recall a guest room photo that showed to the south side of the bed, (in front of the door that connected the guest room to Lizzie's room) where that camp chair had been moved.  (Or is this just a figment of my imagination?)  I couldn't find that photo on the website, altho I'm quite sure I've seen it somewhere.

I was thinking it's very strange if there was no photo taken of that chair.  If it was claimed the chair was splattered with blood, you'd think they'd take a picture to include with the crime scene photos.

(Message last edited Jun-8th-03  10:42 PM.)

You know you're right about that chair being evidence.  They took the wallpaper--they should have taken the chair!
I vaugly remember a photo taken looking toward the doorway where the wash stand had been moved to--is that the same one you mean?

If you look in the mirror of the dressing case you can see the camera that took the photo. To the left of the camera (in the mirror) you can see what looks like the wash stand. I don't remember the chair though.



(Message last edited Jun-8th-03  11:20 PM.)

Thanks Harry -- that's the tripod camera that remains in my mind's eye.  & I recall the washstand (which would be on the SW side, by the door into the guestroom??).

No, for some reason that bloody camp chair sticks in my head as being in a photo.  Maybe I saw it @ FRHS?  Grrr...wish my memory was photographic!

Thanks, Kat.  I don't think I've ever seen that whole photo before, just the cropped version!  Cool!  I will see what I can do about putting a chair in.  I noticed something, look down past Abby's feet, I see a faint chair just before that big glow of light.  Could it be our camp chair?  Or, do you think its the cane chair where Abby's workbasket was?  Maybe we can get Harry to work his magic there and darken the image in that area so we can see it better? 

You know I was just doing that but got nowhere.
Well, I did see odd stuff but couldn't make it out.
Har is the one to tackle that, for sure!

And Thanks Har for the washstand.  That is what I remember.

I get confused with you high tech people placing chairs
and people in pictures, I don't know what is real, I have
to look at my old books for the real thing.  Was there a
chair there? 

Aha!  I'm not the only 1 who seems to recall seeing a picture of that camp chair; Edisto asks about it here --

http://www.arborwood.com/awforums/show-topic-1.php?start=11&fid=27&taid=8&topid=660#11

Maybe Stef has a better idea of where we can find this illusive (but remembered) picture?

Got this from the above quoted thread --



For some reason, where I recall seeing that camp chair is where that man is seated on the right.  Maybe he's sitting on the camp chair?!?

In the same thread, Stef states the camp chair is not shown in any of the crime scene photos.

Why then do I remember having seen the bloody thing?

Preliminary Hearing
Dr. Dolan  (of guest room)
Pg. 197:
I am glad you spoke of that chair that is lacking from the photograph. There was a kind of camp chair, you might call it, an upholstered chair between her head and the east wall; and the feet of that were covered with blood.

[at the end of the bureau between the bureau and the window] I think there was a cane seated chair.

[work basket] immediately in front of this chair.

. . . I think it was a rocking chair up against the bureau, and then the basket was sitting on the other ordinary cane seated chair, opposite.

[The other chair was on the other side of the window in front of it] and the sewing machine behind it.

Thank you for that Kat.  But Oh, this is so maddening!  (I haven't read the Prelim...so I didn't get any info that way).

I'm wondering now if I've only just imagined seeing it.  But why on earth would I have gotten the position to the right of the bed in front of that locked door to Lizzie's room?

Sorry gang, the glare in that photo is pretty overwhelming. I even tried making it a negative. No luck. This is the best I was able to get out of it and its really meaningless.



(Message last edited Jun-9th-03  12:43 AM.)

Thanks Har!
That's about what I got on the left side.  The right side glare was impossible.
This stuff looks like a cello leaning up against a pachinko machine!



(Message last edited Jun-9th-03  1:20 AM.)

It looks kind of like a sewing machine. Maybe they
had a sewing "corner" by the dresser & kept sewing
supplies & fabric in it? Or was the sewing machine
somewhere else in the room? Abby might have very well
been doing some sewing & the noise allowed the killer
to creep up on her???

Lizzie said she didn't hear the machine running -- but
who would believe her? I wonder if anything was left on
the sewing machine half-finished? It seems like that would
explain why she didn't hear anyone until they were right
there. The killer could have used whatever she was sewing
and cleaned the blood off with it & disposed of it.

Thanks, Harry!  You gave it the good old college try!  I do still see a chair there, but, from the sounds of it, there were 3 chairs in that room, a camp chair, a cane seated chair and a rocking chair!  Which one it is there is still a mystery.

And I would have to agree, it does look like the sewing machine is sitting alongside the chair to the left.  Thats why I love this unedited photo of Abby, all the stuff that seems to be missing from the photos is there, off to the sides.

It seems as though there was blood on the wall behind this rocking chair.

Blood Evidence, excerpts from Prelim., 103-105, Dr. Dolan:
"On the moulding, the piece of moulding east of the north window, that is the moulding that caps the mop board, about five or six inches from the casing, there was a spot of blood.
...
On the moulding that caps the mop board. Above that, about two feet, there was a spot on the paper.
From the head they would be between six and seven feet at an angle, that is, the dressing case formed an angle, the body lying here, the spots were over here.
...
There was a straight line, but the dressing case intervened" [No uninterrupted straight line].

The spot by the window was first described as where the cane chair was.  Then Dolan changes that, placing the cane chair by the sewing machine and putting the rocker there by the window.
How would the blood get there behind the rocker?

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/BloodEvidence.htm

Do you think its possible like in the Legends movie and as Victoria Lincoln supposes that the killer went over to the window there to look out to keep an eye on Bridget?  A drip of blood falling from a hand or hatchet? 

Bridget was seen around that side of the house at 10 a.m.
Abby was probaly killed (compromise here) about 9:15?  (Some believe 9:30 >>>  shudder)
Can a person in the window, but not leaning out, see straight down to direclty below their own window?  I don't know.  I haven't been on the second story of a bldg. in a while.
Otherwise that sounds like the Trickey-McHenry hoax, the figure in the window of the guest room.


Who's Lincoln?
What Legends movie? 

I was thinking of the side window in the guest room, I was thinking if someone went to the corner closest to the front of the house and looked out the window at an angle they might be able to see Bridget coming up the driveway from the barn.  I don't know about directly below, the killer might be able to see Bridget, see her working at a window, possibly just her head, but, see enough that Bridget didn't react to Abby's death.  I know, creepy!  Whos Trickey?  Whos McHenry? 

[Chuckle!]
Yes that's the window where the blood is.

The northwest window which overlooked Churchill.

I am only placing Bridget below this window because there is a witness to her being there around 10 throwing water up.  That's Mrs. Churchill.

Then there is no statement by anyone seeing Bridget moving from the barn faucet to the house and back again. I'm being very literal.  Because I don't necessarily believe Bridget was passing back and forth washing windows all the morning.

But we have to account for the blood being around the corner of the bureau below and next to that window.
Standing dripping, I don't think would get on the wall.

There is a bureau, then a rocker by that window, so it sounds as though blood got past the assailant and past the rocker onto the lower part of that wall.

Another thing which is confusing is in that room Dolan says *spots of blood* but we don't know how big these spots are.  I've always wondered about this.  They could be much bigger *spots* than the small word *spot* implies?



(Message last edited Jun-11th-03  12:51 AM.)

Wasn't the blood on top of the molding (moulding) of the mop board?  Windows are slightly recessed into the wall, lean into one and you are over the mop board.

I don't recall reading it, but, were the windows in the guest room open or closed?  I know the inside shutters were closed, but, what about the windows.  I'm thinking perhaps the killer heard the splashing of the water, or perhaps, Bridget muttering curses under her breath as she cleaned the windows on that side of the house?

Yes, I was going by Bridget's testimony, perhaps she could have just come around the corner from talking with the Kelly's girl in the backyard.

I'm assuming when Dolan says "spot" he is refering to small drops of blood, maybe no bigger than a nickle or huckleberry or a pea.  It didn't sound as if any of the blood spots in the guest room or sitting room were very big.

BTW, didn't really know where to post this, but, I just met one of my co-worker's girlfriend today, shes from Boston (Bahstahn)!!!  I guess its the closest I'll ever come to hearing Lizzie speak, so, I asked her to say certain things for me, she looked at me quite strangely when I asked her to say,"O, Mrs. Churchill, do come over, someone has killed Father."  Once I explained the situation, she laughed and said she has been to Fall River, but, never to the Borden house.  Her brother has been though. 

Preliminary Hearing
Dr. Dolan
104
. On the drawers of the dressing case, I presume they were swelled and could not be put in their whole length, on the projection of them, on the uppermost drawer, there were three or four spots. I think on the second one there were six or seven spots, quite large ones, as if they had gone up in the air and had fallen down.
Q.  Any others?
A.  On the moulding, the piece of moulding east of the north window, that is the moulding that caps the mop board, about five or six inches from the casing, there was a spot of blood.
Q.  On the casing?
A.  On the moulding that caps the mop board. Above that, about two feet, there was a spot on the paper.
Q.  How far would those spots be from the head as you found it?
A.  From the head they would be between six and seven feet at an angle, that is, the dressing case formed an angle, the body lying here, the spots were over there.
Q.  There was no straight line between the spots and where the head was found?
A.  There was a straight line, but the dressing case intervened.
Page 105
Q.  No interrupted straight line?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  The spots could not have gone from the body where you found it to that place?
A.  I should not think so, no sir.
..................

163
Q.  You removed a piece of plastering in the guest chamber?
A.  Wall paper; of course a little piece of plastering with it, so to keep it together.
Q.  Was that on the wall between the window frame and the bureau?
A.  Yes sir.
Q.  And three or four feet from the floor?
A.  Yes sir.
Q.  Did you look on the screen of that window?
A.  Yes sir.
Q.  There was a screen in the window, was there not?
A.  Yes sir.
Q.  Did you see any blood spots on it?
A.  Not that I could say were blood.
Q.  Was the window open?
A.  I could not tell you that.
Q.  How did you get at the screen?
A.  It was an inside screen.
Q.  Did you look at the window?
A.  Yes sir.
Q.  Did you raise the screen before you looked at the window?
A.  Yes sir.
Q.  The window was shut was it not?
A.  I mean afterwards, not at that particular time.
Q.  Did you find any spots on the window?
A.  No sir.
Q.  Did you find any spots on the ceiling there?
A.  No sir.
..................
176
Q.  If the murderer was standing over her, using the hatchet you have described, with the handle about eighteen inches to two feet long, would the assailant have used, in your opinion, one or two hands to inflict these blows?
A.  I would not be prepared to say that.
Q.  Would he have been obliged to stoop over in order to give the
Page 177
blows?
A.  Certainly, he would not have been obliged to stand erect.
Q.  In a bending position?
A.  Yes sir.
Q.  Taking into account the average length of the handle of the hatchet, and the average length of the human arm, whereabouts over the prone body of Mrs. Borden, would the assailant have had to stand, in your opinion?
A.  I should judge about over the hips.
Q.  Then the assailant would have been obliged to be, would he not,  astride the hips?
A.  Yes sir.
Q.  With one foot between the body and the bureau, and the other foot between the body and the frame of the bed?
A.  Yes sir.
Q.  Standing in that position do you judge that the spots which you found came from the hatchet, or dropped from the person of the assailant; I mean the spots which you found on the paper, the moulding of the base board between the bureau and the window, and also upon the bureau drawer?
A.  Those near the window I think were struck while Mrs. Borden was near the window.
Q.  In your opinion they could not be adequately accounted for by a person standing in the way you have described, and giving the blows you have described?
A.  No sir, I do not see very well how they could.
.............

-What I've found is that Dolan does not mention the size of the blood spots in Abby's death chamber.  Only to say those on that drawer were large.
-No mention of the exact sizes he was made to determine downstairs in the sitting room with Andrew.
-It seems that the question was asked if that blood by the window was *dropped* but the answer is non-responsive to the exact meaning of the question.  Dolan's only answer to that was basically that Abby was struck in that vincinity.
-As to the window being shut or open, it was not remembered.
-If Bridget cleaned the windows, she was seen throwing water up on the window below the guest room about 10 a.m.  To finish throwing the water on the remaining lower windows, and put away her paraphenalia, and come inside to prepare to wash the interior sides, would take until about 10:20.  So to wonder about Bridget being under the guest room window at 10 wouldn't make much difference, as Abby was dead by 9:30 according to legend.



(Message last edited Jun-11th-03  6:39 PM.)

Thanks for posting all that, Kat.  Do you think its possible that Lizzie was telling the truth when she mentioned Abby going to do some sewing work up in the guest room?  Her work basket was there over by the window, perhaps she was sitting sewing something or tatting or crocheting  and was struck first over by the window?

The other thought that comes to my mind is perhaps the killer lingered in the guest room, possibly arranging things in there, maybe getting cleaned up in there so as not to track blood through the house and then hears Bridget down below and looks to see what is going on down below?  Only 2 drops or spots of blood to account for there.

I suspect that this remembrance was based on past activities. If Abby was in the habit of doing just this, this is how it would be remembered. Like someone who always went to Church at 9am Sundays.
You can hear about the trickiness of human memory, and how it can be influenced by hearing other things.

It doesn't sound like any habit, Abby sewing in that room.

Inquest
Lizzie
79
Q. Do you know of any employment that would occupy your mother for the two hours between nine and eleven in the front room?
A. Not unless she was sewing.
Q. If she had been sewing you would have heard the machine?
A. She did not always use the machine.
Q. Did you see, or were there found, anything to indicate that she was sewing up there?
A. I don't know. She had given me a few weeks before some pillow cases to make.
Q. My question is not that. Did you see, or were there found, anything to indicate that she had done any sewing in that room that morning?
A. I don't know. I was not allowed in that room; I did not see it.
Q. Was that the room where she usually sewed?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you ever know her to use that room for sewing?
A. Yes sir.
Q. When?
A. Whenever she wanted to use the machine.
Q. When she did not want to use the machine, did you know she used that room for sewing?
A. Not unless she went up to sew a button on, or something.
Q. She did not use it as a sitting room?
A. No sir.
Q. Leaving out the sewing, do you know of anything else that would occupy her for two hours in that room?
A. No, not if she had made the bed up, and she said she had when I went down.

--Usually, I think a woman like Abby, if she was to actually clean up the guest room and then shut the door, she is not considering messing up the roiom again to do some sewing which  project she seems to have given Lizzie to do in a previous week.
I don't know if you sew Ray, but it makes quite a mess.  Kind of like the mess made when one is wrapping gifts at Holidays.
--They had *sewing sessions*, the girls and the dressmaker & Abby.  That was probably finished in the spring.
--Lizzie actually placed more emphasis on something Abby seemed to do a lot (?) which makes not much sense to me...but Lizzie claims Abby would come to the guest room to get her best cape, and to get or put things in the drawers in there.  That sounded like more *habit* than any other weekly reason for Abby to go there.
(Have you read the Inquest, Ray?)

(Message last edited Jun-12th-03  6:15 PM.)

Wow!  That's neat!  A chair of that kind would be perfect for a guest room that was used part-time as a sitting room for the daughters.  The chairs could be folded up when not in use and pulled out when Emma and Lizzie had company.  Apart from the upholstery (which looks too modern for the chair, IMHO), it looks just like the sort of thing the Bordens would have had.

No, it doesn't sound like its a habit to me either, but, I'm trying to figure out what made Abby go back up to that room again around 9:00.  Her work basket was up there, or a work basket, I would think that Abby would keep such a thing closer at hand, say in the sitting room.  I don't know if Abby was one of those women like my great-grandmothers, but, they always had a piece of sewing in their hands, mending, darning, or fancy work.  What else could Abby have gone up there for, unless, Lizzie actually did make a note and gave it to Abby knowing that she would go to the guest room to get her cape to leave the house.  Ugh, I wish the contents of the guest room bureau was examined and listed what was found, if anything.  Any ideas? 

Wow!  Good job, Kat!  Makes you realize how small that space really is there with the chairs in place.  And, how awkward! 

Well, you found the chair, Edisto, and Susan said "put 'em in the room."
So between you, you had the vision.
NOW how could a person FIT in there and kill Abby?
It's incredible.

This picture is as good as any to comment on. There is nothing to damage Abby's face w/ bruises. In fact, I say there were NO bruises at all. (But I'm not an expert either.)

Abby was killed around 9:30am, her body discovered over 2.5 hours later. I think the bruises were "post mortem lividity", where blood sinks to the lowest point in the body, even when dead.
This is "proved" by the fact there were NO signs of a struggle, the first or second whacks at least knocked her out.

Anybody care to comment?

Well there was a chair there right in front of Abby.  A vicious hatchet attack in a small space may lead to bruises on both victim & assailant.

The autopsy calls the marks *contusions*.  That is brusing done while the blood is still circulating.  I believe the Medical Examiner might know more about this than we do.

I'm afraid the timing is a bit off when it's proclaimed Abby was killed at 9:30 and found *2.5* hours later.  That's noon.  That doesn't fit the testimony.

Also, where was Abby from 9 to 9:30?  No one can answer that.  Until Lizzie or Bridget see's hide or hare of Abby after 9 a.m. I will believe Abby was slain around 9 when she apparently went up to the guest room.

But then where was Andy? He certainly could've heard this? Or was he getting deaf in his old age?

My times are estimates from memory. Just what then is the exact time?

i thought we could be reasonably sure that andrew had left the house by the time abby was murdered.

I hate to say it but I'm not sure.  We don't know where he was from 9 to 9:30 either, come to think of it.

Me again.
I was thinking some more.
We don't know for sure where Abby, Andrew, Morse Lizzie and Bridget all were from 9-9:30 a.m.!

Our first people seen by outsiders were:
--Bridget by Mary Doolan (but we don't have her statement), which might have been around 9:30.
--Andrew, by Hart and Burrell, about 9:30, at the banks.
--Morse about 9:40 at Weybosset Street, a mile and a quarter away.

--Abby wasn't seen past around 9
--Lizzie was seen around 8:50+by Bridget, then not seen again until 9:30 by Bridget then not seen again until 10:45 or so by Bridget, After Lizzie came downstairs 5 minutes or 10 after Andrew came home.

I don't see anyone with an alibi for Abby's murder out of any of them!

In other words, not enought evidence to conclude without a reasonable doubt.

Yes there's reasonable doubt.
I also wonder though, if enough attention was paid to Abby's murder at the trial.  If the prosecution had only concentrated on the one, I wonder if Lizzie would have been convicted for that.
2 murders and 2 motives seemed to be more than the jury could grasp... and more than the state could prove, obviously.

Once Again, the legend says the trial was fixed, and the judges bought off. This is proved by trying LAB for her Dad's murder, the one where she was seen outside (an alibi). She had no such alibi for Abby, and was in the house at that time.

I also believe that a judge would try to get an innocent accused off, even if it was for the wrong crime. Obstruction of Justice, or Perjury would be something else.
Obstruction for not telling that Wm S Borden visited that day.
Perjury for saying she was upstairs when Bridget heard laughter.