1. "Bed and Breakfest??"
Posted by bethday12 on Jun-14th-03 at 10:08 PM

Hi i am new to this site, yet i am trying to find out if the house Lizzie lived in has become a bed and breakfest. i heard this before yet i haven't been able to find out any factual information. if anyone has any information that could be useful please let me know. Thanks!

Welcome, Beth.  Here's a link to the Lizzie Borden Bed & Breakfast Museum website --

http://www.lizzie-borden.com/

If you visit, let us know how it goes!

http://www.lizzie-borden.com/html/reservations.html

Is this a new page?  Has anyone seen this before?

Hi Beth!  Welcome to the forum. 

I have requested to researve a room (guest room) in
August, waiting to hear back from them.

when did you put in your request? i am guessing there is quite a waiting list!?!?!

That list of gift shop items at the Borden house is perfectly grisly and tasteless--and very popular, I suspect.  However, I cannot even imagine wearing a t-shirt with Lizzie's image on it.  I wonder if, fifty years from now, people will be wearing OJ t-shirts and spending a night in his former wife's house. 

Here is a thought.  There are thousands of murders every year in this nation.  There have been some remarkably infamous murders and murderers:  Loeb and Leopold, Sam Shepherd, Ruth Snyder, Richard Speck--the list is probably endless.  Why is Lizzie so memorable?  There are probably countless reasons, of course.  Why is she, among the infamous accused (whether guilty or innocent)so memorable?

I have a "Lizzie Borden Bed & Breakfast" T-shirt , that I wore with a short jumper.
I had to go downtown Winter Park to get some Art Festival T's I give as gifts every year.
They happened to be selling them in the combination City Hall/Police station!
There I was traipsing about with my lurid T-shirt!  What fun!

--Why this girl?  I have a sneaking suspicion that if her name had been 'Jane Donnelly', (sorry), it would have been different.
And that would not fit that grisly rhyme!

I just read this morning that Scott Peterson (who of course is innocent until proven guilty) is receiving stacks of mail from admiring women.  That strikes me as far sicker than having an interest in a 111-year old mystery that has to be one of the most intriguing in the annals of crime.  Why?  Because, "She must have done it, but she couldn't have." I looked at the recent list of items available at the B&B gift shop, because when I visited there nearly five years ago, I certainly didn't find anything "grisly" being sold.  The pictures of members of the Borden family aren't crime-scene photos but family-album shots.  The most dubious item seems to be the detergent-bottle apron (a strange item in itself) with an axe on it.  I don't think it's a bloody axe, however.  Given the nature of the crimes committed in the house, I think the gift selection is pretty restrained.

Jim, do you think if her name was not "Lizzie", she might not be so infamous?
I have wondered this.

Like the difference between Orenthal and OJ?

I think you may have something there Kat. "Lizzie" is a catchy name like OJ.

Americans, and probably Canadiens, have a strong tendency to shorten peoples names or give them nicknames. People seem to like the odd names.

Hollywood agents are certainly aware of this trait. How many people do you know personally named "Rock", "Tab", etc.?  Makes them stand out from the crowd. 

Yes, there is something about her name.

Oh and what about Har & Kat?

*Jane Donnelly took an axe...*  ?

I presonally knew of a "Rocco" from school or work. Do you know what "Peter" means? It depends on your background.
...
What about "Sly" instead of "Sylvester"? Can YOU imagine a boxer named "Sylvester"? Ha Ha Ha
...
What about that Scott Turow novel/film with "Rusty Sabich"?

(Message last edited Jun-17th-03  7:54 PM.)

Ha ha ha.  It's an odd little world you live in, rays.

I suspect her name does have something to do with her enduring image but that is not the only reason.  Lizzie is almost an immature name, the name of a little girl rather than the name of an adult woman.  It is also interesting that her middle name is Andrew and it is equally curious that she changed her name to Lizbeth. Clearly, she had image issues with her name. I also think the choice of murder weapon matters as well.

Let's see:

Lizzie Borden took a gun
Shot her parents and had some fun....

Or...

Lizzie Borden took a bat
And whacked her mother who was really fat....

Or...

Lizzie Borden took a knife
And stabbed Abbey who was Andrew's wife....

Rather than her name, I think it was her clever choice of a murder weapon that added to her enduring fame.

Those are well done.
I tried to do a few and just didn't have it in me at the time.
That was right along the lines of what I was thinking, trying different rhymes.
I think it's the LiZZie and the aX.
The ZZ's and the "X".
(But yea, not all of it.)

Years ago, I worked with a man whose daughter was named "Lizzie."  (I think her real name was probably "Elizabeth.")  Lizzie certainly wasn't a popular name in the 1960s, and I asked him one day if he wasn't a little concerned about calling his daughter that, given the fact that her namesake had murdered her parents.  (In those days, about all I knew about Lizzie Borden was that rope-jumping rhyme.)  He laughed and said his Lizzie caused enough problems on her own -- that he didn't have to worry about the Lizzie Borden connection.  At least once a week, he had a Lizzie story to tell us.  Apparently his Lizzie was like the kids in those candy commercials...just couldn't keep her mouth shut.  They had a neighbor who liked to garden in a favorite pair of comfortable old pants.  My friend and his wife had noticed that she wore the same pants almost every day, so they figured she must never wash them.  They privately referred to them as "Mrs. Jones's gamy pants," since they figured the pants needed washing badly.  One day they were horrified to overhear Lizzie greet Mrs. Jones with, "Good morning, Mrs. Jones.  I see you're wearing your gamy pants again today."

So now we begin to wonder:
Why wasn't our Lizzie the victim, instead of Abby?

I used to have a friend in high school who went by the name, Liz.  Her real name was Elizabeth, and her mom always called her Lizzie, she hated it.


Kat, I think you may have hit onto something.  Didn't Lizzie and one of the police officers go to school at the same time?  Didn't one of the officers make the comment that there was something he didn't like about that girl?  And, wasn't Lizzie known for her sharp and acid tongue in school?  Hmmm, maybe he had had a run-in with Lizzie in school and never forgave the tongue lashing she gave him? 

Well I was thinking that from most reports (except by Lizzie) that Lizzie herself might have been a more obnoxious person than Abby ever was.
So if someone wanted to kill someone obnoxious, I think Lizzie would fit the bill.



Philip Harrington supposedly knew Lizzie from her youth ("I don't like that girl"), but I think Officer Desmond did too.  (He investigated the *robbery* the year before.)

Yes, I understand what you meant, but, it seems like Harrington may have had it out for our Lizzie, you know, payback for something she may have said or did to him in school?  Is it possible that maybe he asked her out and she spurned him, that he wasn't wealthy enough or good enough for her?  I wish we had more info on their particular past relationship.  I'm sure Lizzie planted some thorn in his side that he wanted to get back at her for, thats the feeling I get.  I swear, sometimes this whole case reads like Peyton Place or Dynasty!

Very simply: because Abby found WSB hiding in the guest room and had words with him, which caused his frenzy of hatred. Lizzie escaped because she was outside, and any attack would have been noticed by the neighbors. Also, WSB may not have had any hatred towards her or Emma. I wonder if Lizzie was thoroughy sheetscared when she realized that she nearly became the third victim?

I think this is why her story changed: "back yard", "in the barn", "up in the barn and in the back". Each story put her farther away from being an eye-witness to anyone leaving the back yard.

I think it was the ax/hatchet, mos def!  The severity of the killings, as opposed to a neat bullet through the heart, on that boring street in that nothing little house - who'd not be fascinated?  The killer had to be up close, too - brrr!!!

God knows, standing there, looking at the police photos in de Mille's book in the Woodside (Queens, NY) Library on that long-ago day, I was hooked.  

(Message last edited Jun-30th-03  12:11 PM.)

During the killing of Abby I don't think Lizzie *escaped from any intruder* at 9-9:30 a.m., as she admits to being in the house that whole time.

Yes I get you.  But I knew Harrington was older than Lizzie.
But checking Hoffman, I see he was only a year older.
I have notes in my Hoffman transcribed from Ter's notes he sent us, and they say about Philip:

"-Lived at 33 Borden Street from 1885 to 1890, when Alice Russell moved in.
- Probably grew up at 71 3rd Street, a stone's throw from #92 Second St.  His father was there in 1876, and his widowed mother was still there in 1882."

Hoffman says that P. Harrington had worked for AJB as a carpenter, prior to joining the police force.

I don't have Ter's sources but I would guess they were City Directories of those years.

Thanks, Kat.  So, it may be possible that ol' Phil had a run-in with Lizzie while he was working for Andrew?  Call it a gut thing, but, didn't it seem like he had it out for our Lizzie at the get-go? 

I think Harrington may have made up his mind early, but I'd like to think (OPINION!  OPINION!) that, as an observant person (I refer to the minute detailing of the clothing he did at the trial), he may have been responding to clues which the rest of the police were not picking up on.  I imagine Lizzie playing the part of a bereaved daughter, but watching things with an eagle-eye.

(Message last edited Jul-1st-03  2:31 PM.)

You are probably right, Bob G. and I am just playing devil's advocate.  Its just this gut thing I get whenever I read over those lines, more like reading between the lines, but, I feel like there may have been a bit more there than meets the eye.  Just my opinion, opinion. 

Bob:

yes, for the most part i have thought so.  my impression is more that he is picking up something -- than that  he is picking at her.

as i recall in witness statements,  he even goes so far as to say that he can't quite explain it himself - or he doesn't know how to describe it or what to call it -- but something about her made him think about her in a way he hated to.

I don't know how much Phil Harrington hated to say he suspected Lizzie.  After he interviews her on the 4th he reported: "I made known by [sic] my suspicions of  Miss Lizzie. To the Marshal I said “I don't like that girl”. He said “what is that?” I repeated, and further said “under the circumstances she does not act in a manner to suit me; it is strange, to say the least.” (Witness Statements)

He's anxious to repeat this at trial, too.  But the defense quite correctly objects and he is only able to say that Lizzie's demeanour appeared "cool".

I find Harrington interesting for a number of reasons.  One of these reasons is because he suspected Lizzie and voiced these suspicions immediately.  And another is, that although his bias must have been obvious to everyone in the department, he is the one sent to verify Carpenter's alibi. I just can't imagine that he would be terribly diligent in this regard.

And I'm pretty sure every man on the jury must have wondered why he was able to describe Lizzie's wrapper as:
"... a striped house wrap, with a pink and light stripe alternating; the pink the most prominent color.  On the light ground stripe was a diamond figure formed by narrow stripes, some of which ran diagonally or bias to the stripe and others parallel with it. .. the sides were tailor fitting, or fitted to the form. The front from the waist to the neck was loose and in folds.  The collar was standing, plaited on the sides and closely shirred in front. On either side, directly over the hips, was caught a narrow bright red ribbon, perhaps three-fourths of an inch or an inch in width.  This was brought around front, tied in a bow, and allowed to drop, with the ends hanging a little below the bow. It was out in semi-train or bell skirt, which the ladies were wearing that season." (Trial)

I've had friends describe their wedding dresses in much less detail. Yet even with these amazing powers of observation -- his "impression" -- which he stuck to even when confronted with the photograph of the body -- was that Andrew was wearing laced high  shoes and not congress boots. 

As I've said before, I think Harrington had an agenda -- and maybe it only involved moving up from patrolman to Captain in 6 mos. as he did -- but... I don't know, I'm still reserving judgement on Officer Phil.

As a gay fellow myself, I've always wondered if Harrington was in any way conflicted about his sexual identity - I know that's quite a leap to make, but come on - what's the first thing most of you thought when you read about how he was able to rattle off such a spectacularly detailed description of a lady's dress?  I sense a "dig" at him when he's asked if he's ever worked in dress goods (I paraphrase), and his save-face comeback is that, as a former painter, he still notices colors to "admire" them.

(Message last edited Jul-1st-03  4:37 PM.)

Then or now, testimony that is important to the prosecution will often(?) lead to promotion for a police officer. Harrington's attention to detail is one important skill for any police officer.
(I once read of a local patrolman who won promotion to detective because while passing by a Main St. store he "noticed" the door wasn't locked. If you can see the deadbolt in the crack you certainly have good eyes!)

Did he formerly work in a clothing store? That might educate him more than the average man. But there is always the chance to rehearse testimony to look really good on the witness stand.

Anyone here ever testify in a criminal case? Or a civil case? How much time did YOU spend in rehearsal of your testimony?

Well, I still don't know very many people, gay or straight, of either sex -- who would be able to describe a dress they saw one time -- during a very high stress situation -- in that kind of detail; unless they were involved with theatrical costumes, dressmaking, haberdashery, or the like.  If I was speculating about his sexual proclivity based on that particular testimony --which I'm notBTW -- I might lean more toward cross-dressing based on that particular testimony.

Maybe this has been discussed before -- but do we know how Harrington died?  Hoffman has him dying "unexpectedly" as do the Knowlton Papers.  According to Rebello, he was married twice and died at the age of 34 -- three weeks after his second wedding. (And a little over one year after the trial.)

(And just for those keeping score -- there's an inconsistency between the Knowlton Glossary and Rebello as to when Harrington was promoted to Captain.  The Glossary says he was appointed in December of 1892 --but Rebello has the date as February 10, 1893.  Rebello's date appears to be correct because it is the one Harrington provided at trial.) 

(Message last edited Jul-1st-03  6:53 PM.)

The Knowlton Glossary has Harrington's death year as 1893, the year of the trial.
Rebello, pg. 151, has Philip's death date as October 28, 1893, 4 months after the trial.
Hoffman has him a sergeant promoted to Captain.

From something I think I read at one time (not in V.V.), an appointment may happen previous to the actual promotion ceremony where the person officially becomes Captain (or hired, or whatever).  It may have a fiscal reason behind it, bit I don't think promotions are effective immediately.  Meaning differing  dates might still be correct.

Harrington always struck me as being one of the brighter bulbs on the police force.

Didn't he ride in the carriage with Lizzie and Hilliard escorting her to the Inquest each morning?

He seems to have had that distinction at least the first time.  I wonder why? [Witness Statements, 13]

Ter's article, "All Things Swift", Susan, in the LABVM/L, New Research section, claims Harrington went to high school with Lizzie, yes.

(Message last edited Jul-1st-03  8:29 PM.)

Harrington accompanied Hilliard to the house to present Lizzie with the subpoena to attend the inquest, and returned to the hearing with them in the carriage.

I don't know if he went the other two days Lizzie attended.

Harrington was a VERY busy man all through out the investigation and seems to have had Hilliard's trust. 

He used to work in a paint & wallpaper store.

The Evening Standard has this comment by the Record:

"June 12, 1893  Page 3, col. 5.

Newspaper Comments.

If Officer Phil Harrington of the Fall River police ever loses his job he ought to have no difficulty in getting a situation in a millinery store or as a reporter on a society journal.  His description of the dress that Lizzie Borden wore the day of the murder was so elaborate in detail as to arouse the suspicion that it was carefully prepared beforehand.  It is a pity, in the interest of justice, that he and his brother officers of the Fall River police were not so observant of other details on that fatal morning as he was of Lizzie Borden's apparel.  His knowledge of the details of a woman's costume is painfully accurate even for a policeman. ---Boston Record."

It would have been pretty satisfying to Harrington to be there to serve Lizzie, and take her to the Inquest, wouldn't it?  At least someone was happy that day.

It came to my realization, as I was looking up Harrington in Victorian Vistas, that he, and the rest of the Fall River force, still had their regular duties daily And fighting crime- And investigating other cases, in whatever form.. Harrington's name was mentioned in the Manchester case as well.  He could have been promoted for various reasons, besides which Minnehan had died and some officers were due promotions anyway.
It's like with Knowlton...I think of him just on the Borden case, but he had other cases and a private practice, during this time, as well.  Also Jennings was leaving town, according to the papers, but when they ran him down, it was on other business to do with his practice.

Thanks, Kat.  I will have to go check it out.  Could it also be something like Harrington saw our Lizzie about town and just didn't like her, thought she was a snooty, rich girl?


Bob G., I noticed that when Lizzie's dress was described in great detail and the question whether Harrington had worked in Ladie's dress goods before did always seem to me to be a slight on his manhood.  I know quite a few gay men and outside of the ones who are involved in the arts or such, I don't think the rest could give quite such a detailed description.  Maybe outside of that the dress was "faaaaaaabulous".    As a woman I notice other women's outfits and as an artist I really notice the details.  It makes me wonder if Harrington had a creative side that he stifled?  Maybe he dabbled in paints on canvas?  Hmmmm. 

You're absolutely right, Kat. Don't know what I was thinking when I said that he died a year after the trial.  I meant the year after the murders, of course. 

And that's a good point about his promotion.  There may have been a difference in the time of the appointment vs the ceremony.  At the trial, Harrington is asked about his rank at the time of the murders.

Q.  You were then a patrolman?
A.  I was, sir.

Q.  And promoted when?
A.  The tenth day of February last.

Q.  You are now captain?
A.  Yes, sir.

But we still don't know the cause of his death?  One of the newspaper headings regarding his death says:  "End of His Determined Struggle for his Life Comes Peacefully" which almost makes his death look 'expected' rather than the 'unexpected' end suggested by Hoffman and the Knowlton Glossary.  I wonder if he was ill during the trial.  And if there's a sad story behind his wedding plans.  So many questions about this man....

Perhaps as a childhood friend he could keep her talking to make what might be interpreted as an "incrimination statement"?
Ever read any true crime stories?

Did somebody say "testilying"? Is it a recent phenomenon?
J F Cooper called it "horse-shedding the witness", reviewing and rehearsing testimony. So it goes back 200 years or more.
The origin of "horseshedt" for an unbelievable story?
A good caustic quote, Kat.

(Message last edited Jul-2nd-03  11:27 AM.)

As in other areas, who you know is more important than what you know.
Your experience in corporate life should tell you that!

Wasn't there a bachelor US Senator back around 1933 who married a young Cuban teenager, then died on his honeymoon? Did this remove a political enemy of FDR? Only a coincidence?

There were a few of us correcting each other just about that time.  I think we were all distracted.  I also think it's pretty funny.  But anyway we each know we have a *fail-safe* in case of a slight mistake.  I find that reassuring.  I think there is a very fine calibre of talent here.  I rejoice.
(I would't mind a private mail correcting my grammer and spelling as well!)

Anyway, here is an excerpt, source Fall River Evening News, October 31, 1893: 1, from article by Terence Duniho, called "Police Officer and an Embezzzler:  Friends 'From Boyhood'?".  This is his draft.  I believe it was published in the LBQ.  (See "Resources" at LABVM/L, Annotated LBQ's):

"On 11 October 1893 Harrington married for the second time.  Seventeen days later, in Newport, RI, he was dead.  Age: 34. (Rebello, 151).  'For some time before his marriage he had not been feeling very well, but he would not give up his duties and rest, and on the day of the wedding he did not appear to be feeling worse than usual.  In the afternoon, after he had arrived in Newport, he was stricken with inflammation of the bowels, which was complicated with other troubles.  Once during his illness he showed slight signs of recovery, but these were followed by a relapse which resulted in his death this morning.' "

--Ter wondered if it was murder.
--I wonder if it was poison!

Thanks for that excerpt from the F.R. Evening News, Kat.  That really is food for thought.  Hmmm ....a little prussic acid perhaps?

Ter wondered, just for the heck of it, if Lizzie knew he was in with Carpenter and they had killed Andrew and so she had him killed in retaliation.

Had him killed?  I'd think she'd send him a big bouquet!

Diana, of course it wouldn't have been the very fast-acting prussic acid, but something slower.

I'm just playing along, obviously, 'cause I still think it was just Liz, though I admit my view of the morning's events has changed since last month's discussions and disagreements.

Could they recognize appendicitis? Does it sound like what?
Just like some guys to not admit to any weakness, and just push on until Mother Nature says its time to stop?

Would arsenic give these symptoms? But the Drs would investigate.

NO! Cyanide (prussic acid) kills very quickly by depriving the body of oxygen (I think). The Caucasian person turns bluish, a tip-off to the poison. The quicker the poison, the more painful. That's why Cleopatra chose an asp.

Is that what you meant to say?  *The quicker the poison the more painful*?
It is my understanding that a longer-acting poison is Horrible!  Just agony, that just goes on and on.
If Cleopatra picked a quick poison, surely she didn't do it in order to suffer?

The bowel inflammation could be that stoppage problem, that killed that little girl from the movie Poltergeist?

I was just kidding about the prussic acid, guys!  I'm one of those who doesn't believe Lizzie tried to buy some from Eli Bence in the first place.

Ah Ha!  Speaking of the Eli Bence testimony/statement:  WHO was the star of finding that witness?!!
You guessed it.
And did he also take that witness to identify Lizzie without a line-up?

About 1 p.m. Wednesday, Aug. 10, during the Inquest, Harrington and Hilliard went to Second Street with the carpenter Morris Daley to remove pieces from the interior of the house which carried blood evidence.

As far as I can tell Morse, Emma and Bridget were all downtown at the proceedings when the officers arrived to take parts of the house away.

In the Witness Statements (15+) I think I find a bit of cynical wit, from the notes of Phil Harrington.  The "Frank Wade Clue" debacle:

"Friday 12, 1892. Harrington. At the Borden house all forenoon assisting on the safe.
Afternoon. Doherty, Medley and Harrington continue on the Frank Wade clue. Got a boat and rakes, and went all over the pond where he saw the suspicious person. We pulled up much stuff and things, but failed to find the hatchet which he thought might be thrown there. We brought back to the station a paper bag which contained an old banana peel, which was tied up with a very long string. This was very suspicious indeed. We had Mr. Matherson the superintendent of the Chase Mill to see we did our work well. He expressed himself as being satisfied we could do no more in that line."

As I read this again it seems tongue-in-cheek, and that it rankled  to have the Mill super watching that they did their assigned job dragging the pond.

Yes, that story cracks me up, taking that suspicious banana peel back to the police station.  If I remember correctly, was that what was seen thrown in to the pond?  The brown paper bag tied with string? 

I kind of got a picture in my mind that the super of the mill wanted his pond cleaned up and found a way to get it done on the taxpayers money!

Kind of like capitalizing on a crime.  It's a thing I have thought of before...like a perfect murder.
Live in an area of frequent tonadoes.  Then when a tonado hits, kill your victim and have it look like the storm did it.
Or lightening strike, or whatever.

Anyway who is Frank Wade?

But, was Frank Wade the super of the mill?  In the witness statements its just listed that: The clue of Frank Wade of No. 58 Snell Street was partially investigated.  For some reason I'm remembering him as some sort of business owner.  Wade's Livery Service? 

The mill guy was a Mr. Matherson.
Wade had a store on Second Street two doors down from Borden and that's probably  the Wade you recall.
But that was Vernon Wade.  (I checked)
This is Frank Wade.
I guess I'll look some more.
Anybody know?

Thanks, Kat.  You saved me a search as I was wondering why I remembered a Wade business owner, it was making me crazy!