Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden Topic Name: Bridget vs. Lizzie  

1. "Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Aug-20th-03 at 9:23 PM

Inquest
Lizzie
55

Q. Did you eat supper at home Wednesday night?
A. I was at home; I did not eat any supper, because I did not feel able to eat supper; I had been sick.
Q. You did not come down to supper?
A. No sir
.


Preliminary
Bridget
2

Q.  You stayed at home that afternoon, did you?
A.  Yes Sir.

Q.  Did you see him [ Morse] when he came home that night?
A.  No Sir.

Q.  He was not at supper then?
A.  No Sir.

Q.  Who was at supper that night?
A.  Miss Lizzie, and Mr. and Mrs. Borden
.

Q.  He was not at supper?
A.  No Sir.

Q.  That was Wednesday night?
A.  Yes Sir
.

53
Q.  Did they all come down to breakfast?
A.  Yes Sir.


Q.  What did you have for breakfast?
A.  Pork steak, and johnny cakes and coffee.

Q.  This was Wednesday morning, after the sickness?
A.  Yes Sir.

Q.  What did you have for dinner?
A.  Mutton soup and mutton boiled.

Q.  Was it mutton soup or a mutton stew, or a thick soup?
A.  Soup.

Q.  Were they all there to dinner?
A.  Yes Sir
.

Q.  Mr. Morse came about half past one, and he had his dinner alone?
A.  Yes Sir.

Q.  What did you have for supper?
A.  Some soup warmed over.

Q.  This same soup warmed over?
A.  Yes Sir.

Q.  Whatelse?
A.  Some bread, and cake and cookies, and tea.

Q.  Where they all there to supper.
A.  Mrs. Borden, Miss Lizzie and Mr. Borden
.

……….

Inquest
Lizzie
80

Q. Was he at dinner the day before?
A. Wednesday noon? I don't know. I had not seen him; I don't think he was.
81 (38)


Q. Were you at dinner?
A. I was in the house.I don't know whether I went down to dinner or not. I was not feeling well.
Q. Whether you ate dinner or not?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Do you remember who was at dinner the day before?
A. No sir, I don't remember, because I don't know whether I was down myself or not.
Q. Were you at tea Wednesday night?
A. I went down, but I think, I don't know, whether I had any tea or not
.
Q. Did you sit down with the family?
A. I think I did, but I am not sure.
Q. Was Mr. Morse there?
A. No sir, I did not see him.
Q. Who were there to tea?
A. Nobody.
Q. The family were there, I suppose?
A. Yes, sir; I mean nobody but the family.
……..
87
A. Well, I ate with them all day Tuesday, that is, what little we ate we sat down to the table; and I think I sat down to the table with them Wednesday night, but I am not sure.
Q. All day Tuesday?
A. I was down at the table.
Q. I understand you to say you did not come down to breakfast?
A. That was Wednesday morning.

Q. I understood you to say that you did not come down to breakfast?
A. I came down, but I did not eat breakfast with them. I did not eat any breakfast. Frequently I would go into the dining room and sit down to the table with them and not eat any breakfast.

…………………….

Bridget says Lizzie was down at breakfast, dinner & supper on Wednesday.

Lizzie says she was not down at breakfast and she was not down for supper, and she’s not sure if she came down for dinner (lunch).  She thinks she went down for tea but doesn’t recall if she ate any, on Wednesday.

Who is being truthful here?

Where does the family have their tea and what time is that normally?
That’s the meal Lizzie admits at which she was present.


(Message last edited Aug-20th-03  9:26 PM.)


2. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by Susan on Aug-21st-03 at 3:38 AM
In response to Message #1.

From what Bridget says, it sounds like the family ate together, but, did they?  No one specifically asked her if they all ate at the same time together.

The reason I say this is because from what we have heard about Lizzie's waking time and coming down time, somewhere about 9 o'clock to 10, the elder Bordens would be finished with their breakfast already.  Unless Lizzie made it a point to get up and go down earlier, theres no way she could have breakfasted with them.

Do you think that Bridget may have been trying to paint the family as a happy little unit?  Lizzie admitted that she would take meals occasionally with the elder Bordens, but, not if they could help it.  Maybe with Emmer's influence gone from the house, Lizzie tried to patch things up, get in good again?

Isn't tea time normally sometime between lunch and dinner?  I would think if the Bordens did have tea time it would probably be in the dining room, no guests to entertain or impress.  Otherwise maybe the sitting room? 


3. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by Tina-Kate on Aug-21st-03 at 8:15 AM
In response to Message #2.

Foul!  I sense a Lizzie pretention alert!

Tea is something ladies of leisure on The Hill would do.  But Andrew & Abby Borden?  Perhaps if there was formal company, but as a daily ritual, I find it highly unlikely.

Lizzie, however, would like people to think they sat down to a formal tea every day.


4. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by Susan on Aug-21st-03 at 12:03 PM
In response to Message #3.

  I could hear the referee's whistle blowing as I read your post!

I noticed that it was Knowlton who put the word "tea" in Lizzie's mouth, but, she did go right along with it.  I do love that statement of hers that she didn't think she drank any tea then. 


5. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by rays on Aug-21st-03 at 1:27 PM
In response to Message #3.

Yes, I can easily believe Lizzie saying she kept the upper-class habit of "tea" (at 4pm). Isn't that a snack?


6. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Aug-21st-03 at 4:43 PM
In response to Message #2.

I see your point.
Lizzie does specify tho that she :
Inq.87
A. Well, I ate with them all day Tuesday, that is, what little we ate we sat down to the table...

They weren't sick until Tuesday night so I don't know why Lizzie would specify "What little we ate" on Tuesday.  What does this mean?
Anyway she says she ate Tuesday.  Maybe she was pretending to be *Happy Familys* because she could look good after the murders.  Lizzie was down early Wednesday morning according to Bridget (early for Lizzie) and we hear Lizzie did not come down until 9ish on Thursday -so she must have been dodging Morse, because Friday etc. she was up really early again(after Thursday).

If tea is a snack at 4, and Lizzie says she was down for that, then that happened around a 1/2 hour after Morse left to go to Swanzy.  Then again it looks like she is dodging him.


7. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by Susan on Aug-21st-03 at 7:52 PM
In response to Message #6.

Which leaves me wondering still, did Lizzie eat with them to look good or was it because Emma's sour influence wasn't around and Lizzie honestly chose to eat with her parents?

Hmmm. There seems to be a pattern with Lizzie's coming down time, no guests and it sounds as though she comes down fairly early.  Guests in the house and she comes down much later.

I'm curious now if when Knowlton said "tea", he meant tea as in tea time or if he was referring to supper as "tea", possibly a colloquialism in New England meaning the evening meal? 


8. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by haulover on Aug-21st-03 at 9:24 PM
In response to Message #1.

first of all, i want to say i appreciate you putting this together since i haven't been able to cut through much of the confusion surrounding her testimony about that time when morse came.  and you've zeroed in on something.  i pored over this all day, and a few times i thought i had something -- only to realize that what i had didn't quite make sense.  does this happen to you?  that's the effect lizzie has on me; that's the lizzie i know.

but i did pretty much decide one thing.  it concerns a lizzieism (i'm not sure we've identified it and named it, but it's when she is asked a question and instead of answering it she supplies info about something else.)

Q.  Did you eat supper at home Wednesday night?
A.  I was at home; I did not eat any supper, because I did not feel able to eat supper; I had been sick.

Q.  Were you at dinner?
A.  I was in the house.  I don't know whether I went down to dinner or not.  I was not feeling well.

you're looking for something logical about her meal attendance.  that i can't find, but i find this lizzieism -- operative statements being "i was at home" and "i was in the house."  but look at the questions; that's not what she was asked.  she is giving info she thinks she had better give concerning the subject or the time she is being asked about.  i'm inclined to think that "i was at home" means she was not at home, and "i was in the house" means she was not in the house.  see what i mean?  beyond that i can't make any real sense out of it.  is it the drug store she's worried about?  can you think of any reason (outside of deception) that she finds it necessary to state that she was in the house or at home when she is questioned about attending meals in the dining room?

the rest of it is a cloud.  i don't know why bridget would remember her at all 3 meals if she wasn't there.  clearly, lizzie doens't want to commit to them.  but what i get from it to work with is that lizzie wants it understood that SHE WAS AT HOME. 

lizzie never knew morse was there until she got home from her visit with alice? 



9. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Aug-21st-03 at 10:38 PM
In response to Message #8.

That's an interesting take on it.
But Lizzie negates Bridget's alibi for her, almost.
Lizzie is playing with fire and I'm not sure why.

You're right in the observation that she uses these evasive maneuvers in her speech patterns.
But what is so important about evading saying she ate?

Susan had an idea that maybe Bridget was kind of covering for Lizzie by saying she came down for these meals, whether Lizzie ate or not.  To show good-will within the family and maybe counteract the story that Lizzie doesn't eat with them?
But Emma later admits this.

So there's no point in that, eventually.

Anyway, Lizzie must be covering for the Drug Store visit.  But I'm not convinced she went there.
Besides the timing of the drug store visit doesn't coincide with the meal times on Wednesday, if we go by their regular pattern.

I still don't get it.
This is a major contradiction between Lizzie and Bridget.  We should be able to figure this out.

As to when Lizzie knew Morse was there she says something else which I thought was odd so here it is...you asked for it.  Can this be explained in the context of our suspicions?

54
Q. How did you know he was there?
A. I heard his voice.
.....

55
Q. When was it that you heard the voice of Mr. Morse?
A. I heard him down there about supper time---no, it was earlier than that. I heard him down there somewhere about three o'clock, I think. I was in my room Wednesday, not feeling well, all day.

--She starts out saying something and stops herself.  I wondered if this was significant?


10. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Aug-23rd-03 at 12:34 AM
In response to Message #9.

Suppertime is like 6 p.m. right?
Lizzie first starts to say she heard Morse at 6?
Then switches to saying 3?
That's a big difference.
If Morse is in with Lizzie, and Bridget has decided not to tell all she knows then we really don't know if or when Lizzie was down, right?  And we really don't know if Morse's Wednesday trip to Swanzy was checked out either do we?  Where he says he had supper with Vinnecum?
The man at Andrew's farm said Morse got there between 7 & 8 p.m. (Witness Statements)


11. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Aug-23rd-03 at 9:15 PM
In response to Message #10.

I'm wondering if there is more importance to Wednesday than we know.  Even if Lizzie did not go to that drug store maybe she did go somewhere...
...If it is thought she is so much trying to show she was in the house as Susan said.  Maybe Lizzie was up to something else?
Anyway, Wednesday must have been some kind of planning day, don't you think?
Or Wednesday night after everyone is in bed?
I would think, if there were conspirators, on the eve of the deed, there would be final plans made or a chance to back out.


12. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by Susan on Aug-24th-03 at 3:04 PM
In response to Message #11.

Do you think its possible that Lizzie was actually out of the house when Morse first got there around three and did hear him only at six?  Andrew or Abby may have mentioned it to Lizzie and she remembered as she said that, that Morse was there earlier and supposedly being in her room would have heard him.  Out for a little Prussic Acid shopping? 


13. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Aug-24th-03 at 8:35 PM
In response to Message #12.

Morse got there, as far as I recall, at about 1:30 Wednedsay and Bridget let him in.  So she would corroborate.  I think Bridget was asked if she served him the late dinner and she says Mrs. Borden did that.
Then Morse hangs around until about 3:30, before he goes off to hire a carriage to go to Swansea.  Andrew wouldn't go with him, and as far as we know Andrew did not go "out" Wednesday.  I think he was around the yard and house that day, but did not go on his business jaunt downtown.

Why did Morse arrive so late in the afternoon and leave Fall River so late to go to Swansea?  (I mean, this man gets up like at 6 a.m.!)  He returned after dark.  That seems late to me.

He wasn't at the Borden's at 6 but he was there at 3.
But Lizzie starts to mean 6.
I wondered if Morse did not eat at Swanzy with Vinnicum, but hung around Fall River and Lizzie went out to meet him.  And then he drove to the farm by 7:30 p.m. or whatever.
There's missing time Wednesday that has never been accounted for so I thought we might try to fill in some gaps.  Asking if that day might be important?


14. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by rays on Aug-27th-03 at 7:27 PM
In response to Message #12.

Since Lizzie was not happy at home, like today's teenagers she would take every chance to hang out with her friends. No one has ever questioned her absence (?) that afternoon. Most likely they knew what she did, and it was of NO IMPORTANCE.


15. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by rays on Aug-27th-03 at 7:30 PM
In response to Message #13.

My guess or speculation is that Abby also did not like the idea of Andy giving something to Cousin Willy. There were some lively discussions, I'll guess. That may be why Andy and JVM stayed up later to discuss a trick to get Abby out of the house the next morning when Andy would meet Wm S Borden (for a final payoff?).

Inviting WSB to the house did not present any danger, if there was none in the past. But something had to set WSB off, and I think it was the surprise meeting in the guest bed room. I wasn't there, its just the likely thing.


16. "Re: Bridget vs. Lizzie"
Posted by Kat on Aug-27th-03 at 10:21 PM
In response to Message #14.

I don't quite get what you are saying.
We are discussing Wednesday and where Lizzie may have been.
Wednesday is important in one respect because Lizzie was asked about her wherabouts due to Eli Bence & cronies identifying her as being in the drugstore that morning trying to purchase prussic acid.
See Susan's post #12 (again?)
The authorities were very interested in Lizzie's movements Wednesday and asked everbody about them.