1. "Lets Dissect Arnold R. Brown!"
Posted by Susan on Apr-1st-04 at 10:24 PM

Lizzie Borden The Legend, The Truth, The Final Chapter  By Arnold R. Brown



There is much dispute over this book already, things such as did William Borden actually exist?  Was Ellen Eagen at #92 the day of the murders?  While valid points, lets try to take it one item at a time based on the facts we know and can check on.

The first discrepancy with the facts that I noted are on pg. 26, Chapter 2, there may be more.  Anyhoo:

Emma Lenora Borden

"Unlike her sister, she was never known to express dissatisfaction with her lot in life, her "humble" home, or her lack of the material things seemingly so important to Lizzie and so easily obtainable for those with Andrew Borden's wealth.  We do know that she did not like her stepmother, Abby."


Yet, from Alice Russell's testimony at the Inquest, we hear otherwise:

Page 151, Inquest

Q. Were they congenial?
A. I do not suppose they would be - knowing their different natures.

Q. The different nature of father and mother and Lizzie?
A. Yes, each of them.

Q. What was the difference in their nature?
A. Mr. Borden was a plain living man with rigid ideas, and very set.  They were young girls.  He had earned his money, and he did not care for the things that young women in their position naturally would; and he looked upon those things--- I don't know just how to put it.

Q. He did not appreciate girls?
A. No, I don't think he did.

Q. Their ideas were more modern than his with regard to living, do you mean?
A. Yes sir.

Q. How did you get this, from the girls talk, or what you observed?
A. From what I observed.  Everybody knew what Andrew Borden's ideas were.  He was a very plain living man; he did not care for anything different.  It always seemed to me as if he did not see why they should care for anything different.

Q. Did they complain about it?
A. Yes, they used to think it ought to be different, there was no reason why it should not be.  They used to think it might be different.

Q. Lizzie or Emma, or both?
A. Both.

Q. There was never any wrangling between them?
A. No, I never heard any.  They had quite refined ideas, and they would like to have been cultured girls, and would like to have had different advantages, and it would be natural for girls to express themselves that way.  I think it would have been unnatural if they had not.


It sounds to me as if Emma was just as dissatisfied with her lot in life as Lizzie was.  Hmmmm.

There is another point on page 26 that I am curious as to where Mr. Brown got his info:

"Those who were at the Brownell cottage with Emma were questioned mercilessly by the police and interviewed to the point of harassment by newspaper reporters.  The Brownells were unanimous and unequivocal in their confirmation of Emma's presence in Fairhaven at the time of the murders.  In spite of this fully substantiated testimony, some accounts of the Borden murders insist that Emma was guilty of the crime."

Does anyone have any info that has any bearing on this? 

Okay, I'll put in a few cents worth to start.

I understand that one reporter from the New Bedford Standard interviewed Mrs. Rebecca Brownell, the mother of Helen, whom Emma had been visiting. The reporter questioned a note that Lizzie had supposedly sent to Emma in Fairhaven earlier. Mrs. Brownell had not seen the note, if it had existed, and her daughter, who was out of town when the reporter visited, hadn't mentioned it.

I have not had a chance to see if anyone from the Star, Fairhaven's weekly newspaper paid the Brownells a visit. I'm not aware of visits by the police.

Brown's description of the Fairhaven "seaside cottage" is incorrect: it was never "seaside" and never moved, as he stated.

Brown is wrong, too, when he says Lizzie's reference to a person Emma was staying with as elderly was either an insult or some kind of coded message to Dr. Bowen. Helen Brownell was about ten years older than Emma, I think. Her mother was in her seventies, as were Moses Delano and his wife. (I'm thinking ages 74, 76 and 78, here, but I don't have Mr. Rebello's article on Emma in Fairhaven in front of me at the moment.) Certainly one of them may have been in delicate enough condition to be shocked by an uncensored report of Andrew's condition.

I tend to question Brown's accuracy, to say the least.

I have other issues with Brown, too, but I'll wait for others to jump in first.

Who is John Eagan of 20 Pearl Street?

He is documented in the witness statements as "drove up and down 2nd street several times from 10.30 to 11.15"  (page 20)

Ellen (allen to the police, again witness statements, page 14) states she was in the Kelly's yard at 11.00am.  I would be interested to know if he was a relative and if so-- if it would not have customary for him to offer her a lift home. 

Also... I think one his main "explanations"  that really turned me off (apart from my belief that a cover up of that magnitude would be next to impossible) was what he said on Page 313. 

Her attempt to buy prussic acid was actually a desire for a strong defensive weapon against Bill should one required, exactly as Arthur Phillips, Jennings' assistant wrote fifty years later.

It defies common sense. It is neatly tucked in, One sentence long and I think he secretly hoped it would be basically overlooked.

Of course if I was Brown I would state unequivocally that He did wish it was overlooked.  Stating my opinion as a documented fact!

thanks for starting this.  i was working on something else at the same time you were posting this (i was going to put it on the end of that other thread, but this is better).  i'm using the same edition you've got.  i hope i'm not messing you up if you planned to go from the first page, page by page -- but i'd like to point out something on page 243 (Chpt 14).  because this is central to his premise:  finding a "concealed" bastard son. 

"At the inquest, Knowlton had asked Lizzie the penetrating, perceptive question, "How many children has your father?"  Mr. Moody asked almost the same question of Mrs. Morse:  "Of that marriage, how many children were there?"  But there is a significant difference between the two questions, which, from all outward appearance, sought the same information.  In each case the answer was the same; Morse, unlike Lizzie, was not forced to lie.

What Morse was not asked should have been grounds for impeachment of both Moody and Knowlton; in what was asked, care was taken to be sure that Morse could easily tell the truth.  The cautious steps the prosecution and defense took to ensure his answers would be easy and precise show that he was considered a threat.  He was called early and was excused as quickly as possible."

__________________________

what brown is saying is that had morse been asked "how many children did andrew father?" -- morse might have said 4 (to include the bastard son).  and that asking it, "of that marriage..." was a clever way to get morse to say, "3."  very calculated and clever and subtle on the part of the lawyers who conspiratorially planned to eliminate bastard billy.  now the quote from morse is accurate and is from the trial, but the context of this question is from questioning about andrew's two marriages -- hence, "of that marriage" as opposed to the other one.  that's the simple explanation for the phrasing of the question.

but brown then tells us that moody and knowlton should have been impeached for phrasing this question thus -- and that morse was treated carefully because they considered him a threat.  meaning that the phrase, "Of that marriage" was the conspiratorial hinge that saved the day where morse's testimony was concerned.  otherwise morse might have told the truth and revealed bill borden.

we're asked to believe a theory in the first place and verify it later on someone's word.  but to be fair --  why do they ask about children?

to clarify the last question of my own post:

if the lawyers were afraid of how morse would answer concerning andrew's paternity, then why did they ask him about it at all?

or is there a reason they believed they were obligated to ask morse about this?  if so, brown's point would be stronger had he explained.

I guess this has been a long time in the coming?  Thanks, FairhavenGuy, for the info, I've checked through everything I have on the Bordens and couldn't find any source for the Brownells being hounded by anyone.

Yes, that was one of the other points I was going to bring up presently about Lizzie's caution in the wording of the telegram so as not to upset one of the elderly ladies in the Brownell home.  From Mrs. Churchill's Inquest testimony, pg. 129:

"Lizzie says, "Doctor, will you send a telegram to Emma, my sister, for me?"  He says, "I will do anything for you."  She wished him not to tell the worst, if he could help it, for the old lady where Emma was visiting was feeble, she had better not have the shock."  To me that sounds like Lizzie was refering to Mrs. Delano and not Emma's contemporary, Helen Brownell.  Why Lizzie wasn't concerned about Emma's feelings in the matter is beyond me!

The only thing I can figure is that Brown got his info from the Witness Statements, from Mrs. Churchill, pg 12:

"Lizzie requested the Doctor to send a telegram to her sister Emma, but not to tell her the facts, for the lady whom she is staying with, is old and feeble, and may be disturbed."  Still, if Helen Brownell was 10 years older than Emma, she'd be in her fifties, I hardly call that old and feeble.  Lizzie must have meant Mrs. Delano?

In Dr. Bowen's Preliminary testimony, he doesn't mention Lizzie saying not to tell the worst because of the feeble old woman.  Nor does he mention it in his Trial testimony either.


Good find, Audrey!  I don't think I recall reading about a John Eagen, I guess we could look in the census records for Fall River and see how many Eagens we can find?

Not a problem, Eugene, this is the place to do it in this thread.  Hopefully people will be able to check all of this in the future if there is any question on Brown's book. 

In 1880 census for FR, John Eagan (NB surname spelling) age 53, his wife Catherine, 50, daughter Catherine, 25, son Owen, 24, son Richard, 22, daughter Mary, 17, son Timothy, 15 lived at 49 Pearl St. and it looks like it was a multi-family home.  John works in a woodyard.
I could only find 4 entries in 1880 census for John Eagen (as spelled in book) in MA, and none of them lived in FR or within 50 miles of FR.
Joe

It was not Pearl St.  It was Spring St. where the Eagens lived.  I mis-read the census.  They lived in the rear of the building. Eleven other families lived in the building.

very interesting....

Rebello, page 129, on Ellen Eagan:

" ... Around 1885, Ellen married Owen Eagan. Mr. Eagan was born in Massachusetts, and the son of John Eagan and Catherine (Hurley) Eagan. He was a laborer, clerk and an owner of a variety store at the corner of Mulberry and Hope Streets in Fall River. The Eagans were the parents of five children. Mr. Eagan died in Fall River at the age of forty-three on October 9, 1901. Mrs. Eagan resided at her home on the corner of Hope and Mulberry Streets until 1909. ..."

Ellen's maiden name was Hurley and she was born in July 1857. Looks like she married the Owen Eagan listed by Joe in post 6.  If so, then her mother-in-law's maiden name was also Hurley.

If so......

That could have been her father in law "driving up and down 2nd street". 

If she was indeed his daughter in law and indeed on 2nd street that morning--one would think he would have given her a lift home.

The majority of Brown's theory rest on very little verifiable fact.

He does not conclusively prove "Ellan  Eagan" was at the scene on August 4. He, if fact, gives us little to prove there was an Ellan Eagan, when it comes right down to it. (Brown never met the late Henry Hawthorne, who was supposedly the son-in-law of Ellan Eagan. Who knows if Brown even verified the basic Hawthorne-Eagan facts?)

We have know idea how old Ellan Eagan was in 1892, but we must assume she was married. We don't know when or where her daughter Mary was born or precisely when or where Mary married Henry Hawthorne. We don't know when or where Ellan Eagan died. We don't have an exact death date or location for Henry Hawthorne.

Brown doesn't acknowledge or try to explain how Harrington's notes refer to bringing an "Allen Eagan" to the inquest on August 10, or that Harrington's notes have no mention of an interview with Mrs. Eagan at her home (supposedly with Doherty present, too).

Brown, of course, never proves that William Borden was the illegitimate son of Andrew J. Borden. He never proves that Henry Hawthorne's parents were employed by this particular William Borden. He doesn't prove that William Borden was in or anywhere near Fall River on August 4, 1892.

Where does this leave us?

Thanks, Harry!  In Brown's book, he spells it Ellan and not Ellen.  So, an Ellen Eagen existed in old Fall River and was there until 1909, hmmm, I just found out why.....

EAGAN [Fall River MA Daily Globe, Tues. 11 May 1909] In this city, Eagan - 9th inst., Ellen Eagan. Funeral will take place from the residence of her nephew, Mr. Thomas C. Eagan, No. 193 Snell street, tomorrow, Wednesday, at 8:15 o'clock a.m. A high mass of requiem will be sung for the repose of her soul at SS. Peter & Paul's church at 9 o'clock a.m. Relatives and friends are respectfully invited to attend. [Fall River MA Daily Globe, Wed. 12 May 1909] The funeral of Ellen Eagan, held this morning from the residence of her nephew, Thomas C. Eagan, Snell street, was well attended. The body was taken to SS. Peter & Paul's church, where a requiem mass was celebrated by Fr. Curley. During the mass, Miss Franey rendered a solo. Burial was at St. Patrick's cemetery. The bearers were John F. O'Brien, Frank Lake, George Sullivan, Joseph Bolger.

From this site: http://www.rootsweb.com/~ussnei/Obit3.htm

But Brown has his Ellan Eagan alive as late as September 1921, after her daughter has married Henry Hawthorne. (First sentence, Chapter 17) And the first chapter begins in "Summer 1911" with Ellan thinking about her daughter Mary being marrying age.


(Message last edited Apr-2nd-04  1:54 PM.)

yes, and i can't find anywhere brown tells when she died.  there's the one picture that says age 62.

Susan, that must be a different Ellen Eagan.  Our Ellen died January 21, 1929.

I don't know where Brown got the spelling as "Ellan". There are several different spellings of the first or last name in the newspaper reports and police statements.  One of them being "Emen Eagan" or "Mrs. Egan".  These two examples are in Rebello (p128-129) and are from Boston newspapers.  Can't find another "Ellan" so far.

The Fall/Winter 1995 issue of the LBQ, pages 15-16, has a very interesting article on William S. Borden titled: 

"New Evidence Brings Profile to Light - The Mysterious William S. Borden " by Jon N. Keller.

Last part about being pestered by the police and reporters.
If you are ever unfortunate to be in this position, you will know about pest reporters who are being paid to follow and question you.
Ever see those unedited shots on the news where a bunch ask questions even though they don't get answers?
...
Frank Spiering's book "Lizzie" claims that Emma did it. This book is valuable for a lot of the background evidence (WCTU etc) that is not in the other books. Publishers have a page limit for books, as far as I can see (about 320 pages for general audiences).
Spiering prints the nonsense about the 1897 typewriter although E. Radin exposed this forgery nearly 47 years ago. Spiering admits to this in his notes!!!

(Message last edited Apr-2nd-04  3:33 PM.)

Isn't Fairhaven besides a river, if not directly on the sea?
Two policemen were sent there to question them about Emma's alibi.
"Seventies" is certainly elderly then or now, even if you're not 32. I can assure that the news of a death WILL shock someone that same age. Ever have older aunt or uncle who died just a week or two apart?
Brown's talk of a 'coded message" shows his wisdom. Refer to the message Mrs Mills sent to the Reverend Hall the night of their deaths.

SO far these just seem to be quibbles on meanings, not facts.

Harry, what's the source that "our" Ellen died January 21, 1929? Is it through some Peterson-Hawthorne-Eagan genealogy? How old was she at the time of her death? What year was her daughter Mary born?

At familysearch.com I dug up an Ellen and Owen with a daughter Mary, who was 7 in 1880, but I don't know that they're from Fall River and that Mary would have been several years older than Henry Hawthorne.

The photo in Brown's book says "Ellan Eagan at age 62," but it doesn't give a year.

Brown has this whole scene of "Ellan" talking to herself as she heads to Sargent's to buy cloth. She's not dragging young Mary or any other children along with her on this trek.

You're impeaching Brown by saying he repeated the words of Lizzie's defense lawyer!!!
Others here have said this buying attempt was part of sting operation by an undercover agent for the police; this would explain why the testimony of the three drugstore guys was not allowed!!!
...
I'll bet Kat can explain John Eagan and that address to everyone's satisfaction.


(Message last edited Apr-2nd-04  3:41 PM.)

Certainly Brown was clever enough to notice the difference in wording, as if they were trying to hide something that would prevent the bought and paid for verdict? Do such things happen today?

"The Burr Conspiracy" trial shows the importance of jury selection. Next is the set of questions to ask of the witnesses. I think Brown was on the target here; note how others disregarded these questions.

I do not know how the witnesses were "horse shedded" (to use a 19th century phrase for rehearsed testimony). In fixing a case, the lawyers have to be careful not to make it look obvious.
You can read "Eight Men Out" for the 1919-1920 baseball games. There were rumors about fixing the 1919 series, but the owners preferred to NOT raise a scandal that could harm their business. True today?
...
The point about baseball is that it is very easy to cheat but make it look like really trying. Bobble the ball, start out a second late, etc. The movie makes this clear. The pitcher got a strike, then hit the batter; this was the sign that the fix was in! Do you remember the point shaving scandals in the 1950s and 1960s? The high priced salaries make cheating less likely today.

(Message last edited Apr-2nd-04  4:04 PM.)

This verifies Arnold R Brown's reliability. But his 1100 page book had to cut back to 320 pages so something may have been dropped.

Fairhavenguy, the source is Rebello, p129-130.  He cites as his sources the obituary and funeral notices from the Jan 21 and 23 Fall River Herald News.  Funeral services were at St. Mary's Cathedral in FR and she was buried in St. John's cemetary in FR.

(Page 129) She was born in Ireland, July 1857 and came to America in 1874.  She married Owen Eagan in 1885 and they had 5 children, ages and names not given.

She would have been 35 at the time of the murders.

(Message last edited Apr-2nd-04  4:03 PM.)

AR Brown notes that there is no birth certificate available for William S Borden, and explains what this means. Unlike other authors, he admits his proof is not 100%. (But its the best yet, IMO.)

I wonder if Ellan Eagan's vomiting was morning sickness? A birth of a child in the next 6 months or so should verify this? Any answers, Kat?

What kind of "proof" do you need for the Hawthorne's employment? Census records are done every ten years. No one has ever proved anyone else guilty either. Brown's work was based on the Hawthorne manuscripts, and the research done by those in "Acknowledgments".

Was "Ellen" produced with a long 'Eh' sound?

Raymond: These are Arnold Brown's words.

"Either Mrs. Churchill misunderstood what had been said, or it contains some hidden caveat from Lizzie to Dr. Bowen. Since Mrs. Brownell was a contemporary of Emma's, it was not nice of Lizzie to have called her an 'old lady.'"

I was pointing out that Brown was spouting nonsense, Ray.

Emma was visiting Miss Helen M. Brownell. Miss Bownell ,54, lived with her mother Mrs. Rebecca Brownell, 78, Mrs. Brownell's brother Moses Delano, 72, and Moses Delano's wife Amanda, 64, who was apparently feeble.

The one news report I know of relating to Emma's stay took place after Emma had already stated that she had been in Fairhaven. The reporter from the Standard was not mercilessly badging anybody about whether or not Emma had been there. He was asking about a note that that apparently been sent to the house in Fairhaven. The reporter claims only to have spoken to the elderly Mrs. Brownell.

Ever live in a small town where there are multiple people of different ages with same name. My father, brother, and nephew all share the same first and last names. Both my nephews share the same first name of my other brother, but not the last.
Is it different elsewhere?
Don't forget human error by reporters who have to meet a deadline.

Sorry I can't afford Rebello. Does the obit mention the connection: that this is the mother of Mary Ellen (Eagan) Hawthorne? How do we know from the obit that this was the woman who allegedly puked in the Kelly's yard?

Oh my God! There's more than one of you???????

Rebello doesn't list the obit itself so I do not know what other information it contains. Obituaries usually do list the children's names.

I edited my previous message with additional information.

>Don't forget human error by reporters who have to meet a
>deadline.

Or authors

>This verifies Arnold R Brown's reliability. But his 1100
>page book had to cut back to 320 pages so something may have
>been dropped.

Yes.... It makes great sense that he would edit things out which provided either proof, or further evidence of his claims and leave in paragraphs about what Ellan was thinking or saying to herself.  Did he channel her in order to know her personal thoughts? 

(page 7)

It must be nice being the Bordens, Ellan thought. Live in a nice house, more money than anybody could ever count, a servant girl to do all the real work, go to the ocean and breathe air without all this soot in it.  It must be real, real nice.  I'll bet them girls don't have to hurry to Sargent's before them Portuguese buy up all the bargains!

Splendid work!  Reading the covetous mind of a dead woman when no one else can even spell her name correctly!

This is also from Rebello, pages 128-129. The first paragraph is from the Aug. 11 FR Daily Herald:

"Another woman dropped into the case Wednesday afternoon, but she did not stay long. A lad who drives for Wilkinson, [the] ice cream man, said he saw a woman come out of the Borden yard about 10:30 o'clock Thursday. Officer Harrington and Doherty went to work to find this woman and they ___?___ in discovering that Ellen Eagan was passing that way [on Second Street] Thursday morning when she was seized with a sudden illness. She went into the first yard she came to, but it was Dr. Kelly's yard, which is next to the Borden house, and the boy was mistaken."

The Boston Daily Advertiser and the Boston Herald published a more detailed account of Mrs. Eagan's story the morning of August 4, 1892.

"There was a witness at today's inquest, whose name was not given out by the police, when the usual bulletin was issued this afternoon. It was Mrs. Egan [Eagan], who was seen to enter the Borden yard before the murders, mistaking it for Dr. Kelly's property adjoining." Boston Daily Advertiser, August 11, 1892: 1.

"The last witness for the day, and the most inconsequential one of all, was the mysterious woman whom the little Polish peddler, Lubinsky, declared he saw coming out of Borden's yard on the morning of the tragedy, and at time, not far from the hour of it.

Officer Harrington was detailed to work up the case, and he brushed aside the mystery and revealed the unknown in [is] a big, good-natured Irish woman named Emen [Ellen] Eagan who lives on Mulberry Street.

Mrs. Eagan was put on the stand and after the first three questions had been asked her, the authorities were satisfied that her evidence had no bearing on the case.

She answered all the queries directed at her with a bluntness, however, which caused a smile to pass around among the officers, the first tinge of levity which has appeared on this terribly serious case so far.

In the first place, she was not sure whether or not it was Borden's yard from which she emerged on the fatal morning, and a little questioning satisfied the district attorney that, instead of from Borden's she had come out from the yard of Dr. Kelly, who lives in the house above the Borden homestead.

Her reason for her appearance there was a most natural one. She had been feeling unwell for a day or two preceding the murder, and on Wednesday last had experimented on herself with a few pills.

On Friday [Thursday] morning she had occasion to go down to make some purchases, and was taking the Second Street route when she began to feel the effects of the pill. She hurried into Dr. Kelly's yard and accosted a servant girl who was washing the windows, and who directed her to a place nearby.

When she came out of the yard the little peddler saw her but she passed down the street, performed her errand and then returned to her home, totally unconscious of the fact that she was to become quite an important personage in the eyes of clew hunters. After Mrs. Eagan had testified, the inquest was adjourned until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning ..." Boston Herald, August 11, 1892.


(Message last edited Apr-2nd-04  4:46 PM.)

1920 FR census shows Jacob Lubinsky, peddler, age 52, living at 181 Spring St. with wife and kids.  This Lubinsky was born in Russia.  If last name ended in an "i", he probably was Polish. I wonder if this was the trial Lubinsky?

I'm at a distinct disadvantage here, because I don't have immediate access to the book--will order on interlibrary loan.  But does he ever mention WHY Ellen Eagan was near the property at that time to begin with?  She had taken a laxative that kicked in rather powerfully and suddenly. She was so distracted by this condition that she mistook whose privy she asked permission to use.  How accurate an eyewitness could this make her.  She wouldn't be a liar, just, er preoccupied. (This info is in Rebello--I can add the page nuber later.)

--Lyddie

My mother had no birth certificate, and what it meant was that city hall in her home town burned down.  Lack of birth certification is NO PROOF OF BASTARD BIRTH!

--Lyddie

You might be able to afford Rebello if you order from FRHS, Fairhaven.  I flipped when I saw the price on Amazon, but they still sell at original price at the Historical Society!

--Lyddie

Sorry, Har, for duplicating your information in my post.  I sent it in before catching up on previous posts. My point about it still stands, but I'll probably find somebody else said something about that too. So in advance.

--Lyddie

Maybe this should have been labeled fiction, Auds, so we could call it artistic truth!

--Lyddie

(Message last edited Apr-2nd-04  11:05 PM.)

Did you notice there was no mention of seeing (or smelling) a scary man exiting the Borden house or yard?  Seems to me that that would be THE thing to relate.

Also, why wouldn't the maid who directed Ellen where to upchuck have seen (or smelled) this mysterious man?  Enquiring minds want to know!

Ray, generally when one is trying to make an important point with regard to historical fact, one includes enough pertinant, verifiable information so that others may look up or double check the research.

In Joseph P. Lash's Eleanor and Franklin, which is more than 700 pages long, by the way, there are twenty-three pages of reference notes in very fine print at the end.

Historical research is pointless if another historical researcher cannot find the same facts.

The reason I asked if the Hawthornes really worked on William Borden's farm is because the entire stinky man case hinges on this.

If you can't tell the difference, Ray, between a fact and something that Brown tells you is a fact without backing it up, you'll just never get it.

Thanks, Harry, for pointing me toward facts.

(Message last edited Apr-3rd-04  10:00 AM.)

One other thing that always bothered me about the Brown book and the
Ellan Eagan claim is that if Lizzie was outside during the talk
he had with Andrew, then William came out and talked to Lizzie.
On that quick glance to the yard from Ellan Eagan, why didn't she
see Lizzie too? 

I believe Rebello's book can also be purchased through the Lizzie Borden Bed & Breakfast.  $49.95

Tracy...

i don't understand why brown included lizzie inquest as an appendix -- as as by itself it would clarify something.  he did not analyze it at all.

"the confrontational nature of lizzie's testimony at the inquest appeared right away when knowlton asked lizzie about her father's children (Q04).  It is an important series of questions, deleted from all other reports of the inquest because it seemed unimportant and was without meaning to them."

i have not seen a censured version of her inquest.  so i don't know what he is referring to.  what he prints there is what we all have.  there is nothing new about it.  the descrepancies between bridget and lizzie -- he doesn't deal with.  he puts lizzie in the kitchen when father comes to the front door and bill borden is in the stairwell laughing.  then for lizzie, bridget disappears, but not for bridget does lizzie dispppear.  what puzzles me is why he would put in lizzie's testimony as though it clarifies his theory-- which it doesn't.

i don't know, but i've noted one thing.  that sound lizzie says she heard:  a scraping sound, a distressing sound, a groan -- that does sound like vomitting, doesn't it?

Maybe it was Ellen Eagan in the outhouse?!   By the way, thanks, Haulover, for pointing out what I was thinking myself--that Brown had no new or exclusive information.  Nothing that we don't have in our own little (beautifully printed, edited, and laid out) PDF files. And forever more, William the Bastard will be the Stinky Man, Harry!

--Lyddie

Speaking of stinky: Bridget has thrown up. Ellen "Ellan" Eagan has thrown up. Andrew has tossed his slops in the yard. It's mid-morning in August. It seems that there would be plenty enough stink without introducing a mysterious smelly character.

I just watched the video:  Case Reopened, Lizzie Borden with Ed McBain.
Arnold Brown was an interviewee.
He said, "Evidence of Andrew Borden being Billy's father is...I have none- let's put it that way."

Here are two images from the TV screen.  One is a photograph which a relative of Henry Hawthorne gave Brown, "of a man believed to be William Borden."  (That is a quote from the show narrator).  Then they showed Brown discussing his attempt to compare this picture with a picture of Andrew and he thinks they match exactly, if one subtracts 35 years from Andrew's visage.





(Message last edited Apr-3rd-04  2:41 AM.)

Ummm...Brown believes these images match? Are we talking roughly about an image of Andrew, say about 40something, like is on the web site?? If so, I have only one thing to say:

"That ain't the way I see it, Chauncey!!"

Condition: "Married"... Was it the condition, or the object of that condition which killed him??

Doug

(Message last edited Apr-3rd-04  3:08 AM.)

That form might be "made up" for the video.  There is no city clerk name.

(Message last edited Apr-3rd-04  3:25 AM.)

hmm there sure isn't...

Doug

I believe that last name on the cert of death is Bordon.  Mis-spelling?  My eyes?

Looks like "Bordon" to me, too.

This is explained in the book. The other children all had birth certificates. Nothing burned down.

The book says Ellen Eagan was nauseous and vomited. As I remember it.
NOBODY kept privies in the front yard, always in the back yard. But the well would be in the front or side yard, as I remember from practical experience at relatives.

I remember AR Brown writing that Ellen sought the shelter of a tree, still the best thing to do if the heat makes you nauseous. If you have to throw up, nobody can do much about it.

Brown has described why Ellan clammed up, and I commented on this earlier. No more needs to be said?
...
The side of the house would have shielded that man from the Kelly's place, not to mention the board fence. I suspect that man left by the hidden back way, the same way Uncle John entered that afternoon.

(Message last edited Apr-3rd-04  1:44 PM.)

Ha Ha, that's funny. You are comparing people in the public eye to a person deliberately kept hidden!!! That's no comparison at all.
Besides, Joseph P. Lash NEEDS no notes, given his close personal relationship with Eleanor (see the FBI dossier on him).

WHAT sort of facts do you need? Census reports? But if employed after the 1890 censues (true?), and leaving before the 1900 census, nothing reported. What about city directories? Did they have one?

I believe that Lizzie was in the back yard eating pears, as she originally testified. She could see WSB leave the yard, but not much else. Lizzie would not be seen from the front, or if she was in the barn as she later testified. Maybe Lizzie didn't really like WSB?

Brown explains the importance of these questions that others overlooked and did not reprint in their books. Sounds harmless, until you look at it from Brown's viewpoint.

WHAT was the purpose of these family questions anyway?

In the barn, or even in the yard, she would have heard or seen nothing. I think this is just an excuse to explain why she returned. She COULD not say "when WSB left I knew the private meeting was over".
...
My suggested explanation was the "groan" made from a strethed spring on the screen door. If you ever heard this, you'd know.

(Message last edited Apr-3rd-04  1:54 PM.)

Do you or anyone else have the handwritten notebook from Henry Hawthorne? I don't think so. Where did they go?

This is very interesting. I would check the ears, nose, face, etc. He does not have Andrew J. Borden's eyes. There are scientific ways to age a photo, and maybe do the reverse, and check for similarities.
Could this 35 yr old face be aged to 70 years?

Thanks for the photo, Kat.

"Certified Copy" means just that. Did they use typewriters in those days for death certificates? In the 1930s they still used writing or printing for my birth certificate. THAT is one way to date and detect any forgeries.

There did exist a William Borden.  See Jon Keller's research from an LBQ letter at the website under "Brown Controversy."
The video said they  think that Billy Bordon was based on that letter to Knowlton from The Hotel Kenmore which I transcribed a few weeks ago, Gordon Reed?  Recall?
I joked about Gordon Bordon.

Brown was part of this video.  I'm assuming the basis of the belief in that letter as telling pretty much the real story (of an illegitimate son), came from a perusal of that letter with the implied approval of Brown.

The show went on to show Lizzie in bed with Bridget in the real house in the real guestroom bed, and Lizzie had on a most beautiful lavander satiny slip/nightgown!
In fact, there were only 2 parts I ever recalled from this video, and didn't know it until I saw if again after SO long-  Lizzie in that satiny lingerae (sp) and Bill Pavao, as Billy Borden, passing Morse in the front hall.
Morse had just killed Abby and was leaving as Billy came in and went into the sitting room, argued with Andrew, and attacked him.

You guys have created a playground here for Ray.
Is it his birthday or something? 

However, if the Reverend Borden was a cousin, then there would be similarities between WSB and Andy. People make nasty gossip, then or now; few know of Mendel's laws.

A few years ago I visited relatives (death of uncle). My cousin's daughter was said to strongly resemble her dead grandma (fair skin, reddish blond hair, plumpness). Or could a man also marry a woman who resembles his mother?

I previously mentioned the fact that people could fool with a mentally impaired child by telling him stories about a rich father, etc. He would be quite put out to find it contrary!

Seven pages in three days? I don't want to create an industry, so I will probably avoid any more questions after today.
Thanks for your questions.

Note that Henry Hawthorne knew William S Borden, but was not at the crime scene that day. Ellan Eagan said she saw someone, but never reported it at the time (loophole in theory). Memories do change, especially when you want to believe you've solved the case.

Brown's theory solved the crime since it explained why neither Lizzie or Bridget did it (known facts), and why Lizzie would keep her mouth shut about it (implied from hiding a family scandal). Until the videotape surfaces, we'll just have to assume theory as true.

Nobody saw a meteor strike the earth and exterminate dinosaurs, or create an ice age. It is just the most likely story to explain it.

Guys, sorry to get gross about this, but the way I read the article, she had taken a pill which had caused a sudden result.  Except if she was trying to induce vomiting (in which case, she would have stayed home, not gone shopping), she would have been taking a laxative.  Hence, the urgent need of a privy.  I can imagine nothing worse than vomiting into a privy hole.  Those of you who have not the delightful experience of a privy must take my word for it: it's the last place you'd go.  Remember, Bridget used the back yard.  She knew her privies.  Diarrhoea, on the other hand, requires a privy seat--like it or not.  And someone using a privy in such circumstances is about the worst witness imaginable.  I doubt she had any thought at all except her cramps, emissions, stench, flies, and perhaps a ladylike fear that someone might hear her noisome and undignified plight.  Can you wonder why her testimony was promptly dismissed.  She is said to have been greatly relieved to put the experience behind her (no indication that she was stifled by conspiracy) and get the hell off the stand, where she was audibly amusing the assemblage with the one bit of "levity" in the preliminaries.  She wasn't even sure whose
privy she used.  I don't care how she spelled or pronounced her name or whose second cousin she was:  she was NOT A USEFUL WITNESS FOR EITHER SIDE.  NO ONE CARED.  NOT BECAUSE OF COVERUP, BUT BECAUSE SHE DID NOT KNOW ANYTHING.


And, Raymond, go back to school and take a logic class. You have committed every logical fallacy in the book.  There is no logical reason for anyone to accept Brown's theory on faith (in whom? You? Brown?  God? --who I'm sure has other things to worry about--until proof comes along.)  Instead, most of us assume it is all hogwash, smoke and mirrors until the unlikely event that you produce meaningful evidence.  Even if you could match up Bill and Andrew's DNA, that would not prove Bill did it; it would prove he was a bastard.  As always, you are at least one step behind.  Also, try doing some research of your own, with some proper documentation.  I have taught Jr. High through College English classes, all requiring research papers. Your material would be thrown back at you to do over in any of the three classes.  Sorry to be so blunt, but you fail to see your limitations, and it's time someone pointed them out to you.  Get off your lazy butt and read something more than Brown and quit expecting everyone else to play gofer for you in your absurd and impossible quest.  Now, you will probably refuse to speak to me.  But my shoulders are broad.
--Lyddie

(Message last edited Apr-3rd-04  6:01 PM.)

lol glad I'm not the only one who runs my mouth (then regrets later)!

Wonderful points, Lyddie.

Ray did go out to the back yard, though, recently to see where the moss grows. It doesn't solve the case, though.

By the way, She is said to have been greatly relieved to put the experience behind her made me laugh out loud in the context you wrote it.

We've all gotten frustrated with Ray over time.
Try reading him for over 4 years.  He says this case is not even his hobby!
Pretty prolific for a part-part-time interest.
He is pretty thick-skinned, tho.
I don't think you've harmed him irreparably.

There is a thread around here somewhere I started long ago (last year?) which is called :
"Who Is Ellen Eagan And What Is She Doing On Second Street?"
It is not on the way to anywhere, considering her address.
I'm suprised a theory hasn't ever been expressed about HER role in the killings with her father-in-law John waiting around to whisk her off after the murders!

Yes Kat, I remember that discussion. Why she was on Second in the first place is a mystery.

According to Brown, Ellen had just bought a bolt of cloth (from of all places Sargents!) and was returning home.  She lived at the corner of Hope and Mulberry and Sargents was located at 90 North Main.  Second Street is east of Main and Mulberry is west of Main. It is a totally unnecessary detour to Second St. as all she had to do was walk south on Main and turn right on William or Columbia.  Coming from the north Second St. is uphill and Brown even has her complaining about that. Since she was feeling sick I would assume she'd take the easiest way.

And according to Brown she was headed home as she had to start dinner and like Bridget heard the 11 o'clock bells.

On the attached map, "A" is Ellens home, "B" is Sargents and the red "X" 92 Second St.



(Message last edited Apr-3rd-04  7:18 PM.)

this is a question for brown -- not for readers.

did this notebook ever exist?  this would have made better sense for an appendix -- not lizzie's inquest.

***You guys have created a playground here for Ray. ***


that's not what we had in mind, but we sure did, didn't we?

...yep...

Doug

This has all been intensly interesting and amusing! Thank you all for the show!
One thing to remember about Brown. He has an idea that is not far off the mark. Some of the assertions, like the killing blow coming from one who was used to doing it, are worthy of note. I have always believed his story was a bit contrived but getting it third hand often produces those results. A lot like the game of grapevine. I think Raymond senses the restless feeling of "maybe it was not as I have been led to believe" and that is why he defends Brown so strongly.
The solution is not in what we have been led to believe, because if it was, we would have solved the case.

Gramma

I've been watching these videos recently and one thing struck me.  There is the assumption that Abby was all bent out of shape over Billy Borden, as Andrew's bastard son- but if he was conceived out-of-wedlock, thru adultry, it all happened before her time, so what would it have to do with her?
Just like those girls weren't her own.  I don't think Billy would reflect on her.
This is what's being pushed in the 2 videos (both have Arnold Brown either on screen or in the credits).  If this is wrong, someone let me know.

Two views of Morse

Does he look 60 here (1892) or older?
Gee, he doesn't look like a fiend....





(Message last edited Apr-3rd-04  10:03 PM.)

Thanks for the map, Har!
That is a very good question!  Do you suppose she was some kind of housebreaker or front man for a little larceny?
She might have had a scam going.  Faint in someone's yard, be brought inside, steal a few things?

I wonder if she or her husband or father-in-law had a record?

That's a very pertinent point now that I think of it, Kat. I can see where Abby might have gotten her bloomers in a snit initially, but it really shouldn't have been that large an issue.

Doug

Nope... actually he puts me in mind of Clement Moore's St. Nick. A red suit and boots here, a white-balled cap there... The twinkle might take some doing, but on the whole, the image works.

Doug

Let's see... There was almost the same age difference between J. V. Morse and sister Sarah as between Emma and Lizzie. Oddly ironic....

Doug

Don't you really think that Brown had Ellen "Ellan" going to Sargent's for cheap cloth only because he knew from Bridget's testimony that there was a sale that day?

Going to Sargent's could, I suppose, be something that she actually told Henry Hawthorne, but it's just as likely another Brown creation, in my opinion.

Gramma, Uncle John having once been in the meat business and at the time living with a butcher gives you others experienced in slaughter or butchery without bringing William Borden in.

Brown is a typical conspiracy theorist. Phrases like "you can't disprove this," are uttered by all manner of pseudo-science types. And it's funny that the conspirators somehow manage to destroy just those bits of hard evidence that the particular conspiracy theorist could use to prove his case. A lack of any evidence becomes proof of a conspiracy.

Hi, Fairhaven!
Actually, I thought of changing "put it all behind her," but all the other ridiculous surrounding circumstances made it so apropos I couldn't resist.   Thanks for noticing.

--Lyddie

How's this, Harry. In her constipated condition, Ellen Eagan followed popular advice (from then and now) of taking a healthful walk to get the inner mechanism humming like a top. In defense of this supposition, I call upon the great big book of everything of the time, THE NEW BUCKEYE COOKBOOK.  (Those unfamiliar with this oracle will soon be steeped in it if they read the new HATCHET.)  In the medical section, we find on page 1154, "In diarrhea the most important item is absolute quiet in bed."  HOWEVER, of constipation, on the other hand, we find this invaluable information:

"The great practical lesson which I wish to inculcate, to be engraven as on a plate of steel on the memory of children and youth, young men and women, the mature and the gray-headed: ALLOW NOTHING SHORT OF FIRE OR ENDANGERED LIFE TO INDUCE YOU TO RESIST, FOR ONE SINGLE MOMENT, NATURE'S ALVINE CALL. So far from refusing a call for anything short of life or death, you should GO AT THE USUAL TIME AND SOLICIT, and doing so you will have your reward in a degree of healthfulness, and in a length of life, that very few are permitted to enjoy." (1123)

With these words graven in the metal plate in her head, hence always before her--morning, night, and noon--is it any wonder that Ellen Eagan hied her hence to the nearest privy to answer nature's call?Nay, nature's demand!

Or maybe she was a second storey woman and a dem'd liar.  Take your pick.  Or perhaps it was she who pulled of the burglary of the year before--riding the streetcar at her ease for free and consulting Abby's watch in brazen fashion.  In fact, since we have her at the location with the bowel alibi, perhaps we should examine her as a suspect.  Who's to say that Ellen Eagan was not Andrew's cast off lover?  Tossed aside like a soiled glove, she must destroy the monstrous wife, then destroy the cad, as well.  Can anyone prove me wrong?  Well, then; there you go. I win.  Next case.

--Lyddie

(Message last edited Apr-4th-04  8:59 AM.)

Perhaps she was just "trotting by" at an inopportune time....

And just what became of the bolt of cloth?????

Could she have been out eariler two days before and mistaken the milk can for a chamber pot therefore poisioning the poor, unsuspecting Bordens?



(Message last edited Apr-4th-04  12:16 AM.)

"Gramma, Uncle John having once been in the meat business and at the time living with a butcher gives you others experienced in slaughter or butchery without bringing William Borden in."

My point, exactly! David M. Anthony was also brought up in the meat industry. There are many "meat men" here to be considered.

Gramma 

"Some of the assertions, like the killing blow coming from someone who was used to doing it are worthy of note."

Maybe I'm missing your point Gramma.  Are you saying that the killer had expertise in the art of murder and mayhem? If so, why all the additional blows? Insurance?

Thank you for your frank and candid comments. I believe AR Brown's solution because it best works, like the Copernican-Galileian theory about the earth revolving around the sun corrected the Ptolemaic theory. If neither L or B did it, then someone else whose identity was hidden by L. Henry Hawthorne's story best fits the known facts. IMO

Your "argument by authority" is rejected with prejudice. Thank you!!!
(I hope I haven't disappointed you.)

This is a good question. I don't know if the answer is in H Hawthornes' note. But maybe she just wanted to visit somebody for lunch?
...
This question is off the wall, and irrelevant. IMO

(Message last edited Apr-4th-04  2:11 PM.)

Yes it did. Somebody here once quoted Lewis Peterson as saying he disagreed with Brown's interpretation of this story. Brown did say he corrected the notes based on research from other ("Acknowledgments").

No one can "solve" this case in a court of law. Everyone involved has been dead before WW II. You can't even "prove" that Aaron Burr was guilty of Treason and violating the Neutrality Act!!!
(You can look it up.)

The problem for Abby (and the girls?) is not WSB's existence, but that Andy would impoverish them by giving away their inheritance.
Ever see family squabbles over an inheritance? (I know of one case where one son served a legal notice on his sister to keep away from the home he alone inherited. He did care for his parents.)

But look at the trouble caused earlier when Andy bought Abby's interest in that old house!!! If you can't believe this, remember "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree".

I don't remember offhand what reason AR Brown assigns to Ellan Eagan and her trip. Maybe this sale attracted loads of others?

Last month I went to the sale at 'Office Max'; about 50 people were in line before me when the doors opened. If you don't line up first thing, they sell out of the advertised items. Try this yourself at home!!!

Perhaps you need to read or re-read AR Brown's book?
The story about Ruby in 1985 may have kicked off this discussion between Brown and Peterson. Brown was given Hawthorne's notes, and used it to write his book. ARB was NOT a professional writer like Porter, Pearson, Radin, Spiering, Lincoln, etc. If not for that, he wouldn't have written anything. Agree?

Ray

Do

you

like

I remember Brown's book saying that Ellen Eagan had to throw up (hear, smell, food?). Maybe it was some shock from seeing a wild-eyed stranger?
Ever see a crazy guy up close and personal? Watch those eyes!

Lady Liddie needs some quiet rest to calm her mind. She is doing what she says shouldn't be done!!!

multiple

No, she was headed for home. She says so herself.  Although how Brown knows what she was thinking is beyond me.  But he's apparently good at that.

posts?  (in a row on the same thread)

Such multiple blows are sign of madness or great hatred, as far as I know.
Back in Sept 1994 I heard a retired detective on a call-in radio show discussing the Nicole-Ron murders. He said the many stab wounds on Ron were a sign that he was the intended victim, and claimed it was from a rejected lover. He had covered many such cases in Manhattan. What is YOUR experience from your local newspapers?

But didn't AR Brown get his information from H Hawthorne's notes?
Didn't Brown check everything with the people in "Acknowledgments"?

"She says so herself." was the quote.
So how do YOU know what Ellen Eagan was thinking? The same way AR Brown used?

(Message last edited Apr-5th-04  2:53 PM.)

Is this a serious question? Let the others reply, as it is not germane. Thanks for asking, though.
...
This discussion is now ended. If you responed, your question will get a lower priority in the queue.
Thank you for your interest in this subject.

(Message last edited Apr-4th-04  2:41 PM.)

Who said I knew what Ellen was thinking?  I wouldn't make those assumptions unless I was creating a work of fiction like Brown.

"Are you saying that the killer had expertise in the art of murder.."

Yes,.....but not mayhem. The extra blows were for insurance, but I believe they dealt death surely and completely in the first swings like someone who knows what they are doing and has done it more than once in their life. The extras may have been because they didn't want the chance of moaning sounds being heard and they certainly didn't want any chance of recovery.

Gramma

Way back on page 9?  I had a pertinent point to make, but I'm afraid it's slipped my mind by now, and besides Ray says the subject is now closed.

No, Ray, I did not need time to calm my mind.  I do sleep, from time to time, and I have a family life.  Finally, unlike you, I do take time to improve my mind, rather than run round in circles that carve deep grooves in any conversation you take part in. (Yes, I choose to end with a preposition.) My postings are at least cogent, proofread,  logical (even when I write in jest).  You clumsily duck every question by changing the subject or by answering with a non sequitur.  When no one responds to these ravings, you pronounce yourself the winner.  This is not the way to debate, converse, or otherwise communicate.  Read through the posts and find me ONE writer who has bowed to your superior knowledge.  If you name one, I challenge you to get that writer to support your claim.

Agreed?

--Lyddie

(Message last edited Apr-4th-04  10:07 PM.)

Guess what, Kat?  We're reopening it!

--Lyddie

My goodness, so many pages to catch up on!  This thread has taken on a life of its own!  I will try to post more myself tomorrow after I've had some sleep. 

I've read that an experienced soldier will shoot and kill with one buller, a civilian will use more than one "to make sure".
Truth is when you see a body shot in the heart and bleeding, you don't have to shoot more or even wait until they stop twitching.
Spending time and bullets is not cost-effective.

The many stab wounds or hatchet strokes suggest mad hatred, since an cool executioner would know one whack that splits the skull kills.
Just like that story in Brown about WSB killing a horse (or a cow or sheep), "Pole-axed" to kill a large animal.

Kat, thank you for respecting my wishes. I don't want to spend the rest of the week or month or year on this.
I will allow you one simple question today that I will answer by Wednesday.

(Message last edited Apr-5th-04  2:50 PM.)

i'm sure she appreciates it, ray!

you know, i think i'm tired of it myself when i have to read two pages worth of consecutive postings by ray -- and then take the extra trouble actually searching for the more original postings i was anticipating.

That's just the way it is when a topic has multiple threads. But the good thing is that a hot topic attracts multiple postings quickly.
Just go back to something old and you won't be tried.

Kat, cancel whatever you had scheduled for Wednesday so you don't miss out on asking that one question. 

I think I've heard everything now. 

Can everyone ask a question or just Kat???

I think it would behoove us all to change our plans and be available Wednesday with sufficiently bated breath....

You can always ask a question of anyone, even the dead. But there are no guarantees that it will be answered to your satisfaction.

Brown's Acknowledgements:





(Message last edited Apr-5th-04  7:53 PM.)

Jordan Fiore!

Refresh my memory?
Why were we looking for him?  *The most knowledgeable person on the topic of the Borden Murders*...

Notice A Manchester in Westport?

(Message last edited Apr-5th-04  8:31 PM.)

I found a couple of more Brownisms, I am curious as to where this info comes from?

pg. 36:

Andrew Jackson Borden

"The day he was murdered, the area around his house was shoulder-to-shoulder with citizens, a few in tears, some rendered speechless by genuine shock.  But for each mourner, ten others cheered and whooped and celebrated with unrestrained joy and delight, Andrew Borden was dead."


pg. 37:

Lizzie Andrew Borden

"At the time of the murders, she had a number of escorts and suitors."

Anyone? 

The page 36 one I think he got from watching the musical Scrooge, starring Albert Finney.

"Thank you very much,
Thank you very much
That's the nicest thing that anyone's ever done for me. . ."

Re: Jordan Fiore -- the other reference to him is in the Jan 13, 1985 Providence Journal article about Ruby Cameron by Bernard Sullivan who called Fiore "perhaps the most scholarly student of the Borden murders".

Oh that's right!
Anybody here heard of Jordan Fiore?
You Mass. people?

BTW:  I was singing Scrooge myself! 

(Message last edited Apr-6th-04  1:25 AM.)

  That was good, FairhavenGuy!  I'm wondering if it was from a newspaper story, or gossip, wish Brown would state how he knows these things that I can't find any pertinent reference on.

Hi Kat and everyone,

Jordon Fiore taught at Bridgewater State College and was also a resident of Taunton.

I attended a talk he held at the Bridgewater Public Library when I was in my late teens about Lizzie Borden and what I rememeber from the talk was that he didn't say whether he believed she was guilty or innocence. (This is what sparked my interest in Lizzie.)

I am able to access the special collections in the library at Bridgewater State College (since I work here) and I did alittle research last fall for some information pertaining to my department (biology).  I found lots of writings and information about Dr. Fiore.  He donated all kinds of materials to the college.  BUT, I did not find anything on Lizzie Borden and believe me I did look.  Some of the holdings in the special collections archive are cataloged but most are not.  I pulled box after box off the shelves and read the history of the college and information that Dr. Fiore had collected.  Lots of great stuff but nothing on Lizzie tho.  I was very disappointed.

Dr. Fiore's son, I believe he goes by Jody Fiore, lives in the Taunton area and is an attorney.

TO:  Rays/Raymond,

You had me going for awhile there---at first I thought that we had a NEW Rays and then I figured out that you just decided to be more formal.  Keep those multiple posts coming Rays/Raymond!!!:-)

Best to all,

Tracie

. . . unless, of course, you have an ouija board.

Thank you for your thanks.
My name change was caused by the cancellation of my original account. No explanation was given. It set my count down to zero.

My guess is that this information is so HOT that it would be secreted by the gatherer. Any loss is truly priceless.

The point is that AR Brown was not a professional writer or novelist. Just an amateur who wrote the one book of his life, based on the account from strangers. (It would like finding the notebook of a deceased witness for the JFK assassination.)

This shows that AR Brown did not "just wing it" with his researches. But the final work is his alone, and can blame no one else. Unlike Pearson or Sullivan, he did not claim he solved the case against the trial evidence. This 'parallax view' accounts for things that were illogical or unknown. I'll believe him until a better explanation comes along.

Can anyone else try to defend any other author of a book? Separate thread, of course. Due to traffic, I can't promise to answer anyone else's questions on Wed.
...
Brown mentions his talk w/ Peterson, but not the year. I suggest this would most likely be in 1985, after the Ruby Cameron stories.

(Message last edited Apr-6th-04  4:27 PM.)

Thanks Tracie!
Where ya bin?
That was some nice work.
I hope Diana reads this too.
I wonder why Fiore was never tapped for a video.
Maybe he took all his Lizzie stuff home when he left the school.
Stef is always trying to explain to me about collections in archives which have not yet been catalogued.  That would drive me crazy!
Oh, you are our Tauton State Asylum Tracie!  :  stay tuned- it's tax time and I am going bonkers.

Thanks a lot, Tracie.  I'd been wondering if Dr. Fiore had published anything on the Borden case -- but it doesn't look like it from what you're saying here.