1. "Lizbeth's Burial"
Posted by Kat on Mar-25th-04 at 4:59 AM

Thanks so much for posting that! I haven't seen that
picture at all. The graveyard didn't look as lonely &
spooky as it does now....

Thanks, Kat, thats a really bittersweet pic.  Lizzie being laid to rest and taking all those secrets and info with her!!!

That's quite a picture Kat.  Thanks for posting it.

What always struck me as eerie was Lizzie's handwritten burial instructions which she wrote in 1919 some 8 years before her death.  I don't know if it was then common to do such a thing and the letter does not say to whom it is addressed.  The instructions seem to have been followed quite closely.



(Message last edited Mar-25th-04  12:51 PM.)

Thank you both for the wonderful photo and note!

I am happy to have seen and saved them today as this is the day I set aside time to back all my important documents, photos, etc on a zip drive!

Thanks for re-posting that!  It fits here perfectly, and poignantly.  Do you know what is the 14th Chapter of St. John and do you have a transcription of the instructions?

Essentially chapter 14 of John is Jesus speaking to the disciples at the last supper.

I did have a transcript of the burial instructions at one time. I'll have to look around for it.

This is my interpetation of the instructions:

"My funeral to be strictly private with a short prayer at the grave.

At the house I wish read “The Crossing of the Bar”. Also the 14th
chapter of St. John and the 23rd Psalm.

Also sung the first and fourth verses of “My Ain Countrie”.

I wish to be laid at my father’s feet.

A small head stone to match the others of my family.

Lizbeth [underlined twice] to be cut on the stone.

Lizbeth Andrews with the date July 1860.

The minister of the Church of the Ascension is to conduct the services.

Grave to be bricked.

Signed/   Lizbeth  A. Borden

March 31, 1919  Fall River"


(Message last edited Mar-25th-04  7:55 PM.)

I found this on the "Crossing of the Bar":

THE CROSSING OF THE BAR

by Alfred Lord Tennyson

Sunset and evening star,
And one clear call for me!
And may there be no moaning of the bar,
When I put out to sea,

But such a tide as moving seems asleep,
Too full for sound and foam,
When that which drew from out the boundless deep
Turns again home.

Twilight and evening bell,
And after that the dark!
And may there be no sadness of farewell,
When I embark;

For tho' from out our bourne of Time and Place
The flood may bear me far,
I hope to see my Pilot face to face
When I have crost the bar.

Thanks for all that, Har!
I think our Greatgrandmother liked Tennyson as well.  She was born 1880.
It sounds like a 19th century thing.
Any "confession" in that 14th ?

No Kat, no confesssion.  It was Jesus saying farewell to the disciples.

Tennyson?? Good grief, another of my favorite poets!!

Actually I know of another that I'll put over in the "tea room"

Doug

Thanks, Harry, great to be able to read Lizzie's own burial request in her own handwriting, very cool!  So much for Lincoln's having Lizzie buried at night, etc, etc, etc. 

on the question of John chpt 14:  i looked this up in a "catholic-approved/episcopal-approved" translation (and just by chance, it was the first one i picked up, and i couldn't help but notice the word, "orphan.") 

actually this reading makes a lot of sense for one's funeral and it's a well-known part:

John 14:1-4
Let not your heart be troubled.  You believe in God, believe also in me.  In my Father's house there are many mansions.  Were it not so, I should have told you, because I go to prepare a place for you.  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again, and I will take you to myself; that where I am, there you also may be.  And where I go you know, and the way you know."

verses 18-19:
I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.  Yet a little while and the world no longer sees me.  But you see me, for I live and you shall live.

_____________

of course, i've left out a lot of the chapter.  i guess it's interesting to speculate about how lizzie might have read this, what it might have meant to her.

for the record, the King James version of verse 18 is:  "I will not leave you comfortless:  I will come to you."

yes, with the emphasis that a comforter will follow.

Thanks you guys.
I just got out a Catholic Bible.
It was a lot of "My Father" this and "My Father" that- as well.

Did someone say "bricking" was a way to defeat grave robbers?
Laying at the feet shows a preference and submission?
"Lizbeth" is the name she chose for herself, independence from Dad.

Judas?  Naaaahhhhhhhh.

--Lyddie

Too bad she wouldn't have known the orphans translation, but she was definitely a King James girl, not a Doue.


When she instructs, "Lizbeth Andrews" does she mean to change her LAST name,as well?  Sadly, the photo caption spells it "Lisbeth."

--Lyddie

(Message last edited Mar-26th-04  7:37 PM.)

Actually, there was a Judas there, but not the same one.
That's not what I meant tho, I meant was she trying to say something without saying it...Like in her will.

You know, Lyddie, the same thing crossed my mind when I read that. I got this shiver, like they didn't do what she instructed. There was actually a family in the area by the name of Andrews. I really think she wanted to be buried under the name of Andrews, instead of Borden.

Gramma

Kat,
"catholic-approved/episcopal-approved"

Since she was supposedly buried from the Church of the Ascension (my grandfather's Church where he was tenor soloist in the choir and also served as Sexton for a while) that was a very appropriate version selection.

Gramma

Lizzie was an orphan, no siblings since Emma left her.  Noone
really cared.  No family.  Maybe we all relate to Lizzie in this
way, the survivor Lizzie, what an amazing lady.

You may be right.  Notice she underlines "Lizbeth Andrews" --but the handwriting is unclear. Is there really an "s" on "Andrew"? If so, it really makes you wonder about her changing both names.

All those instructions strike me as Lizzie trying to prove to everyone one last time that she truly was innocent of the murders, or if anything else that whether she did it or not she had made her peace with God and knew where she was going in the end.  The passage in John is a great comfort to christians, Ihear it referred to alot because it is Christ comforting us and letting us know that He is always with us, even when He is unseen and when people forsake us He never will and there is a place for us in His kingdom and we are guaranteed a place in His Kingdom no matter what our sin(killing our father and stepmother maybe?) as long as true repentance has taken place and we accept the forgiveness that comes from Christs death and ressurection.  Which brings me to the thought that if she did do it and had reached the point of true repentance, what terrible guilt and grief she must have experienced, she would have been miserable.
Another thought came to me to is that if she did not commit the murders and suffered the alienation and scorn of the people around her anyway, her only comfort must have been in the knowledge that Christ was with her and she was not alone and she would have to wait until heaven to recieve the acceptance and love that she craved. Her request to be buried at her fathers feet brings to mind the thought of an adoring child sitting at her fathers feet, do you think she was thinking that, or did she just want everyone to think that she was thinking that?!

My sense of it, after reading St. John, was that Lizbeth wanted people to think that.
I may be wrong, but all those "Father" references sound odd.
That is a lot of instructions, now that I think about it, for someone who wishes to go out quietly.
And I also wondered why she would get that place, at the feet of her own father in burial, and not Emma. 
Is it first come, first served?

Actually haulover wrote that.:
"catholic-approved/episcopal-approved"
I just happened to have a Catholic Bible.

There are others that have been convicted in the Court of Public Opinion after a 'not guilty' verdict. Ever hear of Aaron Burr?
...
I think this was Lizzie's dying declaration of "I didn't do it".
Keep up the good work!

(Message last edited Mar-27th-04  4:46 PM.)

Merri, I loved your post and agree, either way Lizzie wanted to be free at last

She may have asked to be put at Andrew's feet because she didn't want to be anywhere near Abby.

Perhaps she found out his skull was re interned near his feet and she wanted him to be able to hear her....


Seriously... I think she did want to be away from Abby. 

I also think her choices reflected her "poetic" style and had no hidden meanings at all. 


I do not think Lizzie had found peace.. She was still looking for it.
Perhaps she thought she might finally find it in death.

Likewise with...

And old time friends, and twilight plays
And starry nights, and sunny days
Come trouping up the misty ways
When my fire burns low.

Have you ever heard the rumor (from the LBQ-a letter) that Abby's mother was exhumed and was moved to Oak Grove in May, 1891?
And that Andrew paid for it?

mmmm never heard of it

Can anyone help me with a conclusion for my report???  I'll type down what I have so far and i will see if any of you can fill in the blanks I need.

"Lizzie and Emma bought and moved into a beautiful gray stone Victorian house with thirteen rooms within five weeks after the trial.  Considering the events from both sides of the case, there remains only one fact that is beyond a reasonable doubt: Andrew J. Borden and his wife, Abigail D. Borden, were both brutally murdered, whether their daughter, Lizzie, did it or not.  Lizzie died in ______,(A) ______(B) at the age ______,(C) due to a gallbaldder surgery complications.  Emma followed close behind ______(D) days later at the age ______(E).  Can anyone help?

I think it was 14 rooms, the other stuff is common knowledge, on
the Internet, basic knowledge you can find yourself. good luck on
report.

thanks

Deafandsmart, it's Abby D. Borden, not Abigail.  Sometimes spelled Abbie.

oh ok. thanks for the correction.

Rebello, pg. 286, has a NYT article claiming the girls moved Thursday, September 7th.
If the trial ended June 20Th , that is 79 days, counting from June 21st.
That's over 11 weeks.
I like that you say the only fact we know is that these 2 people were killed.

thank you.  I thought I could put that in my paper.  Basically the only fact we have.  I think.

Don't forget that we also know Lizzie was found 'not guilty' of murdering her Dear Father. The other charges were nolle prosequi-ed.

Hi Deafandsmart!  The house that Lizzie and Emma moved into wasn't a gray stone building, it was clapboard and shingles.  As to it being beautiful, well, that ones subjective, but, it was an improvement over the old Borden house. 

Heres a link to pictures of the home Lizzie and Emma moved into, it was called "Maplecroft":
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Galleries/Maplecroft.htm

Is it possible to 'tour' inside of Maplecroft ? (finger's crossed !)

Tracy...

When I was going to Fall River, I dearly hoped I wouldn't leave until I got into Maplecroft.  My one chance was at night and the house was dark.
So, that was it.  (Tho I had seen so much by then I think Maplecroft would have been a serious overload).
I think if you were a brave soul you might knock and ask, or better yet call first.
It's my understanding that courtesy would give a homeowner notice.
It would then be totally in the hands of the owner to deny or admit you.
Good luck!
It would be wonderful! 

Good idea Kat.  I think I will try to find out who to call.  Does anyone here know who to call ?  Maybe I could try FRHS ?  Seeing the inside of Maplecroft was one thing I didn't get to do on my last trip to Fall River.  It would be just too wonderful if I could "get in" this time.  Hmmm...wonder what I would want to look for 'on the inside" ?

Tracy...

Tracy,

You need to call ahead of time and ask. Mr. Dube has an active schedule.
I don't know if he is still allowing people in or not. He was very nice at the conference time and allowed me to see my grandmother's room which was not on the tour.
I hope he has not been harassed since then so you might get a chance to see it.

Gramma

THANK YOU FOR THE INFO GRAMMA !  I just looked up a phone number...R. Dube (pronounced "Doob", or "Doobay" ?) at 306 French St !  I will call him and see what he says. Fingers crossed again...

Tracy...

I think it is "Doobay" and I think you'll get an
a$$ kicking!!

Kimberly,

Do you really think he will be mad if I call about seeing the inside of Maplecroft ?  Have you tried it ?  Dang, I really had my hopes up.  Hmmm...maybe I can find another route...

Tracy...

They say he picked a woman up & removed her from his lawn.
I have never been to Fall River & would stay off his property
if I were to go. My guess is he gets plenty of calls & says
no to all of them. It is his home. Does he still have his
office there? Anyone could get in by having business with him.
I can't remember what he does....

I guess it would be pretty unnerving if complete strangers were always asking to tour your home.  But he did buy Maplecroft afterall.  I won't give up on the idea totally yet...maybe another option will open up.

Tracy...

Gramma,

Thanks again for the info.  I am not going to give up yet.  Maybe I can find a way to sweet-talk Mr. Dube into letting me see the inside of Maplecroft.  Where was your Grandmother's room ?  Your Grandmother was Ruby...right ?

Tracy...

Just don't hang around in the yard and peek in the windows.
What's the worst he can do to a polite phone caller?  I say "Go for it."

--Lyddie

You are right Lyddie.  If he's mean to me when I am polite, I hope Lizzie's ghost will haunt the hell out of him !...LOL.  I'll let you know what happens.

Tracy...

If Maplecroft ever ends up (again) for sale, I will make a full price offer the moment I am aware of it...

Then you can ALL come in for free!

Tracy,
You pronounce his name Doobee. He may say no if you call but if you don't call you have no chance at all.

No, my grandmother was not Ruby Cameron.

Gramma

Thanks Gramma.  I am so new...so much to learn !

Tracy...

Gramma,

I just went back to past thread where the Ruby story was told.  Now I understand who your Grandmother was...I think.  So many details to cram into my tired brain all at once.  I don't understand a lot yet, but I am working on it bit by bit.  Thanks for sharing your story.

Tracy...

Especially since the Dubes are planning to take the mantels with them.  I mean, they've already covered up the Maplecroft step; they may not be too popular with her.

--Lyddie

If what you say is true, you don't have to wait. Just send your agent to see the owner, and make him an offer he can't refuse.
He is/was trying to sell it.

LOL...the next thing we will see on Ebay is those mantels and the Maplecroft sign.  Maybe Mr. Dube just doesn't understand.  Has he really covered up the Maplecroft sign from the steps ???

Tracy...

hey where is this ruby stoy??? I'd like to check it out. im cuious now

Privy:



Persevere until post #3.

Tracy,
Can you imagine my brain when I met Ruby for the first time?
Until then there was no hint of David M Anthony and it changed the way I saw everything. It finally made sense.

Gramma

Hi Deafandsmart,
You half to spend half your life reading everything here! I remember the first days when I came onto the forum. I thought I would never catch up and still haven't! The archives is just too huge.

Gramma

Lyddie and Tracy,
That house is a candidate for the historical register, already approved! If he takes those mantles I think the whole city would lynch him!
I can't imagine him doing that but who knows....they sure would bring a fancy price at Southeby's!

He covered the step to stop so much traffic stopping to take pictures.

Gramma

Check your mailbox for some fanmail!

--Lyddie

no it's not easy!!!! lol

fanmail????? my email is deafandsmart@aol.com

Gramma,

Wow...I can only omagine how exciting that must have been for you !  I don't know what has drawn me to Lizze's story.  But, I feel like it was easier to quit smoking that it will ever be to quit studying Lizzie.  I can't imagine stopping.  Thank you so much for your help as part of  my getting started in Bordenology.

Tracy...

Did Mr. Dube REALIZE what he was buying when he bought Maplecroft ?  It is so hard to think that someone who didn't love it like we do would buy it then shun the world from it. I know it is his home, but it is not JUAT ANY home...it it MAPLECROFT !

Tracy...

Actually, I think Mr. Dube does know what he has. He put wallpaper in Lizzie's bedroom with a bird design because he knew she loved the birds so much and thought she would like it.

Gramma

This article came out when Mr. Dube was buying the home.

 

 

(Message last edited Apr-1st-04  12:30 AM.)

(Message last edited Apr-1st-04  12:31 AM.)

If the house is on the Historical Register I think that would prevent anything original from being removed. However, whoever buys it has to agree to do repairs in keeping with the time the house was built. At the time of the Conference he was doing that but I do not know if he has continued. It is a pretty pricey deal when it comes to doing the outside.

Gramma

i heard or read that there were plenty of lizzie things in trunks or boxes in the attic -- that he had not even bothered to look through.  do you think this is true?  if so, how ironic -- if any one of us owned it, we would have gone through it with a fine-toothed comb.  the answer to this question, of course, would be his honest answer, if one could get it.

I got to the third floor and there were things there that were original, I think. Wish I had talked him into the attic!

Gramma

http://www.heraldnews.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11096088&BRD=1710&PAG=461&dept_id=99784&rfi=6

OH WOW KAT !!! This is WONDERFUL STUFF !!!  THANK YOU THANK YOU !

Tracy...

Thank you again Kat !  Wonderful article !Tracy...

I agree..if ANY of us were the caretakers of the house, we would hold every part of it in the highest of respect for what it represents. I think we weould also understand that with the history, we would have to share it.  Thank you all so much for sharing your thoughts on Maplecroft here in the forum !

Tracy...

I just had a thought...if Maplecroft is on the registry, would the owner have any obligations to NOT cover up the sign on the steps...since that is part of 'the house' ? 

Tracy...

Hi, Silly!
When you log in, you should get a "You've got mail" message. Click on it and you're golden.  (You may want to edit out your email address to keep  out virus spreading forum lurkers.  They're everywhere, you know.)

--Lyddie

Oh I'm sorry, deafandsmart.  It should be explained when we have new members, some features we have here.
This is for everyone:
For internal mail, which I call "Letterbox" (I don't know why- most call it PM, which I didn't know what that meant- I had to ask!) - anyway, on your front page of the Forum will appear an envelope icon on the left side of the screen, above the topic area listings, above "LOGOUT".  If one clicks on that, it takes the person to their private e-mail within the Forum.  A reply can be sent from there as well, by clicking at the bottom of the incoming message "Reply."

To send a message, look at the 3 icons on the message of the person you wish to contact- on the right on the top of their message.  There is a white "profile"- that is where you click to find out if that person provided info about themselves.  The middle icon looks like a piece of paper, with a red arrow.  That is where one clicks to write to someone privately within the Forum.

To edit a post:
Go to the bottom of your post (I'm speaking to everyone) and you will see:
Print this message | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

A person will click on "EDIT" and their original message appears.  They can change anything and click POST MESSAGE again.  The date and time of the latest EDIT will show at the bottom, but not how many times one edited.

ah...now i get it!!! let me check it.  I think