1. "Coat in the kitchen?"
Posted by Harry on Mar-5th-04 at 7:51 PM

Bridget testifies (page 209) at the trial to the following about Mr. Borden:

Q.  Did you notice what he did after he brought his key down and put it there?
A.  He came out into the kitchen; he put a dressing coat on, as far as I think, and went outdoors.
Q.  Did he bring anything else down stairs besides his key?
A.  Yes, sir; a slop pail.

Where did he get this coat and was it the coat he wore that day downstreet?

Dressing coat sounds like a dressing gown to me which is a robe.  Could that be the Cardigan jacket that Andrew wore about the house?  I seem to recall a post about it hanging just inside the doorway from the kitchen into the sitting room? 

Yes, that's right Susan. I also remember a coat of his being on some hook but I thought that was his street coat.  I may be totally wrong though.

After putting on the coat in the kitchen he took his slop pail outside. Would he wear a robe-like coat outside?

Hey, it works for Tony Soprano.

--Lyddie  

I'm just picturing Andrew hoofing down the drive in robe with slop pail, with "Blue Moon in Your Eyes" beating in the background.  The song takes on a whole new meaning. . . .

It's confusing.  I tend to agree with Susan, that the "dressing coat" was a robe.  Or at least his cardigan.  Bridget was Irish, and sometimes she might use a word that wasn't used by the non-Irish back then.  Is this the only time we hear that wording?  Could this have been Bridget's word for God-knows-what coat?  I'd think that emptying the slop pail, he wouldn't wear his finest. 

Gee, we have his "cardigan".  And his "reefer".  And his "Prince Albert".  And now this "dressing coat".  And they say Lizzie had a lot of clothes ...

In her Preliminary testimony Bridget says that Andrew kept a short dressing coat in the kitchen.

Later she is asked:"Where did he keep the coat that he wore out of doors?" 
And she answers: "In the dining room."
She says she didn't see him put on that coat because she didn't see him leave. So the last time she saw him he had his "house coat" on. (pages 6+)

From that I take it that he wore the short dressing coat to take out the slop pail -- and he wouldn't have worn it downtown.  But as to whether it was more like a robe or a casual jacket -- we're still no farther ahead, I guess.

Why would Andrew have gone outside with his slop pail? The place they usually emptied it was in the basement. Even Bridget was unsure if he went outside so we have made an assumption here. The word assume can really get you into trouble!

From the BBC we have:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/gloucestershire/untold_stories/african/living.shtml

"Mally recalls the inadequacy of his clothing for the winter weather and remembers his friends buying him an old army coat for 7s 6d from Woods Army and Navy Store in Westgate Street, which became his “house coat, dressing coat and blanket”."

So it seems in English culture one was expected to have a house coat (presumably to be worn around the house),and a dressing coat (presumably to wear when one was going out). When Andrew came home he probably went to his room to relieve himself. Then when he came downstairs he put on the usual "house coat". I would think that would have been a fairly normal routine for him, including bringing the slop pail down to empty.


Gramma

The carriage out of the slop pail comes from Bridget's testimony. I can't see any point in her lying about this detail. Perhaps he was set in his ways.  This is also a man who brushed his teeth at the kitchen sink, which is pretty disgusting when you think about it.

--Lyddie

In her Preliminary testimony, Bridget says that Andrew:
"Took a slop pail out and threw it all over the yard."
Q:"You mean he emptied some slops?"
A:"Yes, sir."
Q:"Where did he empty the slops?"
A:"Right out in the yard."

Then in her trial testimony she is asked:
Q: "Did he do anything else out in the yard besides unlock the door and empty the slops?"
A. "Yes sir. He brought in a basket of pears that he picked off the ground ..."

Perhaps Andrew thought of this as fertilizer. One hopes, however, that the pears he brought in were not too close to the slops...

Gramma, that quote you provided regarding the English manner of dressing refers to an immigrant from Africa who came to England in 1950.  I'm sorry but I don't quite see how this is relevant to what Andrew would have worn some 60 years earlier.

Also, in case there's any confusion here -- the coat under  discussion here is the one Bridget claims she saw Andrew wearing early in the morning -- before he went downtown.  What he put on (or didn't put on)when he came back is a separate issue.

I've taken a look in my 1895 Montgomery Ward catalogue.  At that time, men still wore "cutaway, walking, or dress suits" the jackets being long in the back.  Suits with short jackets were termed "square suits". 

Looking through the catalogue, I was also surprised to see how much form ladies'"wrappers" had.  I'd thought of them as being much simpler.  But in the illustrations these look just like regular dresses worn at the time.  It's hard to tell from drawings -- but these appear to be one-piece garments drawn in at the waist with a self-sash.  They have huge puffy sleeves and wide ruffled collars. The prices start at 59 cents each/$6.96 per dozen!! The fabrics are described variously as twilled cotton, light chambray, good cotton challies etc. (I always thought it was "challis".)




(Message last edited Mar-6th-04  4:10 PM.)

Harry,

I noted the terms, "dress coat", "blouse coat" and "cardigan" in the testimonies and other documents when referring to Andrew's garments.

Checked old (1893), new and slang dictionaries and could not find the first two listed anywhere.  Cardigan is defined as a knitted woolen jacket, open or buttoned down the front.

Could they all be one and the same?

Yes, Bill, I think they may be all the same thing. Some sort of a wear-around-the-house coat.  He probably would wear it for quick trips out in the yard but not on the street.

Thanks for the input folks.

Preliminary
Bridget
61+
Q.  This jacket he put on in the morning, was not a dressing gown, but a common cardigan jacket?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Where was that kept?
A.  In the sitting room, as you go into the sitting room from the kitchen; there was a nail there.
Q.  By the stove?
A.  Yes Sir.

--She is saying (rather backwards), that there was a nail by the stove in the kitchen where Andrew kept his house coat- or that coat he wore in the house:  the 'common...jacket'- and that was near the door into the sitting room.

Andrew's coat he wore down street was in the dining room.  Bridget doesn't recall, when Andrew returned, if she saw him later in his 'house coat'.
Prelim
Bridget
9
Q.  Did he do anything about his coat when he came down that time?
A.  I did not see him. He went in the sitting room.
Q.  Where did he keep the coat that he wore out of doors?
A.  In the dining room.
Q.  Did you see him with that on?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  So the last time you saw him before he went out, he had his house coat on?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  You say you did not see him go out?
A.  No Sir.

&  p22:

Q.  He sat down with a book or a paper near the window in the sitting room?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  In a rocking chair?
A.  An easy chair I guess.
Q.  Had he then put on his house coat?
A.  I could not tell you.

................

pg. 6
Q.  Was he dressed when he came down? -[that morning]
A.  In his shirt sleeves.
Q.  Have his coat with him?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Did he put his coat on?
A.  No Sir. He had his dressing coat, a short coat, hanging in the kitchen.
Q.  He put it on there?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Did he have his collar and neck tie on when he came down?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Did he put those on?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Not for breakfast?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  When did he put them on?
A.  After breakfast I think. He went up stairs to his room
--This 'coat' Andrew kept in the kitchen was probably the same coat as mentioned before.

(Message last edited Mar-6th-04  10:30 PM.)

I wondered about this too, William.  Their use of "cardigan" sounds nothing like ours.  I just checked the OED; it says "knitted wool
overwaistcoat, with or without sleeves," from the Crimean War on.  This sounds more formal than our sweater; speculation: the knitting might be very tightly done by machine and look something like a country vest or jacket. Does that sound plausible?  (Susan should get in on this.)

--Lyddie

I think I answered the question.
I have looked at this before.
I have collected clothing info too in a topic about Shawls, bonnets ,aprons and coats and where they are kept.
I did look for the thread but didn't waste too much time on looking as I recalled from where I first gathered the info.
If you can read the citations I provided,and read what comes before and after, (maybe thinking it is out of context, or wanting the whole of the information), you might try that.  I think the info is there.

We had a discussion which went on and on a while ago as to whether the 'Cardigan jacket' was the same as Andrew's coat he is wearing in his death photo.
The testimony by Bridget says:
Preliminary
Bridget
61+
Q.  This jacket he put on in the morning, was not a dressing gown, but a common cardigan jacket?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Where was that kept?
A.  In the sitting room, as you go into the sitting room from the kitchen; there was a nail there.
Q.  By the stove?
A.  Yes Sir.

Bridget called it something it wasn't and that was also mentioned here on this topic as possible.  I think the questioning shows he is telling Bridget what that day jacket was really called, in his culture.
We struggled with the 'Cardigan' part and the consensus was finally that it might be called that, in their culture.

(Message last edited Mar-7th-04  9:18 PM.)

Thanks, Lyddie.  My opinion, for what its worth, is that Andrew had 2 coats or jackets around the Borden house.  His business jacket; the Prince Albert and his at home jacket; the Cardigan, which is what I feel that Bridget is refering to as his dressing coat.  I guess it was Andrew's version of casual wear, though, I don't know how comfortable it would be as it was still a type of jacket. 

Thanks!  Makes sense to me.

--Lyddie