Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden Topic Name: 11:40 What crowd?  

1. "11:40 What crowd?"
Posted by harry on Aug-4th-03 at 11:49 AM

I don't see any crowd.  I'll just meander back and have me a few pears. Wonder who that fellow was at the door?


2. "Re: 11:40 What crowd?"
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Aug-4th-03 at 12:19 PM
In response to Message #1.

(I don't wanna go in, I don't wanna go in!  Poor Andrew!.....Abby, TOO??????)


3. "Re: 11:40 What crowd?"
Posted by rays on Aug-4th-03 at 4:14 PM
In response to Message #1.

JVM was obviously told of the murders. His careful alibi leads to this conclusion. I think he was trying to think of something to keep the family secrets (and avoid any charge on him).


4. "Re: 11:40 What crowd?"
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Aug-4th-03 at 4:45 PM
In response to Message #3.

I agree partly.  I think JVM had been told of Andrew's murder by Bowen, either by phone or in person, as Morse left his niece's on Weybosset and Bowen arrived.  This would be why Morse came home dripping alibi.  Too bad he didn't realize he'd have no alibi for Abby's death!


5. "Re: 11:40 What crowd?"
Posted by harry on Aug-4th-03 at 5:30 PM
In response to Message #4.

I can't see a reason why Bowen would want to hide the fact if he told Morse.

Morse says that he received a telephone call but doesn't say from whom.    That assumes the Emery's had a phone.  Mrs. Emery doesn't mention a phone or a call. Assuming they did, I have no problem with Bowen calling there but why hide that fact? There would be nothing wrong with him doing that and in fact it's something you would expect him to do.

Morse told several versions of this story.  In the Witness statements, Aug. 4, page 29, he told Medley the first he heard of the murders was when he arrived home. On that same page Medley reports that Morse told the reporter (and later author) Porter that he received a telephone call.

So we have 3 choices, Bowen, a telephone call or he learned it when he arrived home.

What is the source of Bowen telling him?  According to Mrs. Emery, in an Aug. 5 Evening Standard article, Morse and Bowen didn't meet when Morse left.

(Message last edited Aug-4th-03  5:41 PM.)


6. "Re: 11:40 What crowd?"
Posted by rays on Aug-4th-03 at 6:34 PM
In response to Message #5.

While I haven't seen the original 1100 page book that was shortened for publication, Arnold R Brown does claim that Lizzie sent Dr Bowen to recall JV Morse to the house. I think the facts do not rule it out.


7. "Re: 11:40 What crowd?"
Posted by harry on Aug-4th-03 at 6:52 PM
In response to Message #6.

What facts are those?


8. "Re: 11:40 What crowd?"
Posted by Kat on Aug-4th-03 at 11:53 PM
In response to Message #7.

We here figured out how far Weybosset Street was from the Borden house, and unless Bowen stopped there on his way home before the murders were known, we couldn't figure out that Bowen had enough time when he left Lizzie to go send a telegram to also travel to Weybosset Street..  The telegram was timed.  It's about the only thing with a time stamp on it in this case.  There's less to mess with in that evidence than any other. He also had a driver - what about him?  How do you keep him quiet?  And as Harry says why not divulge such a thing?


(Message last edited Aug-5th-03  2:21 AM.)


9. "Re: 11:40 What crowd?"
Posted by Kat on Aug-5th-03 at 2:20 AM
In response to Message #8.

In Fleet's notes of August 4th, Witness Statements, he has it that  Morse:
"Saw a number of persons around the house, and was told that Mr. and Mrs. Borden was killed. That was the first I knew of their deaths.”


10. "Re: 11:40 What crowd?"
Posted by Tina-Kate on Aug-5th-03 at 11:59 AM
In response to Message #9.

It's always been a puzzlement to me why JVM changed his story so much (or appears to have given different different versions to different people), & yet sure enough, his alibi is iron-clad & detailed to the point of obsessiveness.


11. "Re: 11:40 What crowd?"
Posted by rays on Aug-5th-03 at 3:48 PM
In response to Message #8.

Didn't Dr Bowen own a telephone?
Altho AR Brown says Dr Bowen carried a note from Lizzie, as I remember it.
Why should the (assumed?) driver either keep quiet or speak out?

(Message last edited Aug-5th-03  3:48 PM.)


12. "Re: 11:40 What crowd?"
Posted by Kat on Aug-6th-03 at 12:38 AM
In response to Message #11.

Bowen at Inquest talks about his actions and where he went and mentions his 'boy' several times.  It almost sounds like *you can ask my boy what I did*.
The wife can corroborate and so can the telegraph office with the copy of the telegram form, timed, so can the guys at the drugstore, so can the driver.  I doubt he would offer all this detal if it couldn't be verified.  It still leaves no time to visit Weybosset.  I'm not saying he didn't use a phone but I don't know why he would know where Morse was.
pg. 118:
...Before I went out she said if you telegraph to her, perhaps she will come on this noon train. I went directly across to my house, and told my wife, and told her about telegraphing. I was satisfied she could not come on the noon train direct, so my boy drove me down to the telegraph office, and I telegraphed to Miss Emma Borden.
Q.  You had not then heard that the mother had been killed too?
A.  No Sir. Then I went across to Baker’s drug store, I motioned the boy to come along. I stopped two or three minutes there and told them of it. When I came out, I got in my carriage again and drove directly to the house again and stopped at Mr. Borden’s door and went in. There were no crowds there at that time, that I remember of. I drove up on his side and told the boy to stand there.
Q.  Had the crowd began to collect around there then?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  The news had not got around?

--Later in his testimony, Bowen says his driver gave him info which helped him remember where he was at certain times that day.  He may be *off* by about 5 minutes he admits, but that would not get him to Weybosset and back.
The drivers name was James Leonard, thanks to the index in the Witness Statements.
--I don't know...did Bowen have a telephone?


13. "Re: 11:40 What crowd?"
Posted by rays on Aug-6th-03 at 3:18 PM
In response to Message #12.

Since the word "boy" originally refers to "an unmarried male of any age", sending a note with a "boy" does not imply teen-aged or younger. Do we agree?

Do people still use "boys" or "girls" to refer to people w/o spouses? "The boys night out"?


14. "Re: 11:40 What crowd?"
Posted by Kat on Aug-7th-03 at 2:18 PM
In response to Message #12.

In the July, 2000 issue of the LBQ, in an article entitled "Why Did He Go There?...", Fritz Adilz speculates that Bowen had time to go to Weybosset Street and why, without compromising Bowen's reputation, by implicating him in any conspiracy. The reason given is that Bowen thought he might be doing Lizzie a favor, in the order of the Man knowing what was in her best interests.  And so he did not t tell her, and therefore covered up that trip to warn Morse of the death of Andrew.
The premise starts out that Morse see's Bowen beginning his rounds on Thursday morning as they both were leaving the houses, and Morse desperate for an alibi called an hello to be noticed.  That's how, according to Fritz, Bowen knew where Morse would be, because Morse told him at that time.
That was my major question, besides the timing.
But Fritz seems to think there was time for Bowen's extra jaunt to the Emery's.
He is essentillay trying to prove a news account rather than testimony, but he posits some interesting elements to the scenario, so I thought I should give equal time, as it were, though this not my opinion.
Fritz writes very well and his efforts are always compelling.


15. "Re: 11:40 What crowd?"
Posted by rays on Aug-7th-03 at 6:02 PM
In response to Message #14.

Me feeling or guess is that Dr Bowen liked, or felt sorry for, Miss Lizzie. I'll bet she never treated Dr Bowen the way Andy did ("my money shan't pay for it").
The other question, from my experience, is: was Abby ever sickened from a suspected poison in the recent past? I guess we'll never know.

AR Brown's book says Lizzie specifically asked Dr Bowen to recall Uncle John. Because LAB was faced w/ an unexpected problem she could not handle. (I suppose those who think conspiracy would say this was to let JVM know of the done deed.)