1. "Why the delay?"
Posted by harry on Nov-21st-03 at 2:55 PM

Something that I hadn't noticed before was that Alice Russell was not asked any questions until the Trial, but a few at the Inquest, of Lizzie's visit the night before the murders. From the Inquest, page 146,  on direct questioning by Knowlton:

"Q.  Was it at your house Miss Lizzie was visiting the night before?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Spent the evening there?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  When did she go home?
A.  I think about nine o’clock; it may have been five minutes before or after."

That's it. Nothing, unless I missed it, was asked her about the visit at the Preliminary hearing.

Knowlton, page 227, exhibit HK212, is a letter handwritten in ink dated June 2, 1893 by Alice Russell describing in detail Lizzie's visit. The letter was apparently directed to Moody as she says at the end:

"Mr. Moody - The forgoing is a substantially correct narrative as I remember it of the conversation which you wish me to give you. signed Miss Russell."

This was just days before the trial started.  Was not the prosecution aware of the information contained in the letter until as late as June 1893?  Am I missing something? 

Could it be that Alice's story was "improved" for the Grand Jury? That was when her story about the burning of the dress resulted in an indictment.

Trial
Fleet
Page 464

Q.  Anything else?
A. I then asked her if she had any idea who could have killed her father and mother. Then she said, "She is not my mother, sir; she is my stepmother; my mother died when I was a child."  I then asked her if there had been any one around this morning whom she would suspect of having done the killing of these people, and she said that she had not seen any one, but about nine o'clock that morning a man came to the door and was talking with her father.  I asked her what they were talking about, and she said she thought they were talking about a store, and he spoke like an Englishman.  I think about all the conversation I had with her at that time--- Oh, no. Miss Russell was in the room, and she says to Lizzie, "Tell him all; tell him what you was telling me."  And she looked at Miss Russell, and then she says, "About two weeks ago a man came to the house, to the front door, and had some talk with father, and talked as though he was angry."  And I asked her what he was talking about.  She said, "He was talking about a store, and father said to him, 'I cannot let you have the store for that purpose;’ "---The man seemed to be angry.  I then came down stairs.

Q.  Is that all that you recall at that first interview with her?
A.  I think it is.
--This shows that Alice was prodding Lizzie to tell the things which she told Alice previously.
--It might show in other's testimony, who visited Lizzie in her room Thursday?


(Message last edited Nov-21st-03  10:00 PM.)

Searched all the Witness statements, the Inquest, the Preliminary and Rebello and could find nothing where Alice told anbody of Lizzie's visit.

It looks like Alice held back right to almost the beginning of the trial before revealing it.

IMO, in spite of suspecting Lizzie, Alice did her best to resist telling all she knew. I'm not quite sure what that means.

I'm talking about the dress burning on Sunday. Why not mention it earlier?

Her visit was known.  Mrs. Dr. Bowen tells of Lizzie going out Wednesday and Abby told her Lizzie was going to Miss Russell's.  Morse talks about her coming home.
I thought you were concerned with when Alice told what she heard that night, not questioning whether it was known Lizzie had even visited Alice.

[edit here:]
This is the kind of gap which has me thinking there are statements we have not yet seen, and I look toward the Hilliard Papers with expectation.

(Message last edited Nov-22nd-03  4:35 PM.)

Exactly Kat.  The police knew about the visit at the time of the Inquest as I wrote in post #1. But it looks like they did not know what Lizzie had said at that visit, and Alice apparently didn't volunteer to tell them.

Perhaps Moody got wind of some of what was said, or Alice, as the trial neared, decided to finally tell. 

Imagine if they had this information and the knowledge of the burning of the dress at the time Lizzie was questioned at the Inquest.

I have a hunch that bits and pieces of the story told by Lizzie to Alice Wednesday night came out in the papers.
I am checking the Sourcebook for news items and so far:
Probably Friday, Aug. 5th, 1892, The Fall River Herald,
Pg. 8 :That an angry man had come to the house wanting to rent a store and was denied.
10:  "Various rumors have been started, one of which was that Miss Borden had assured a friend last winter after a mysterious robbery at the house that her father had an enemy somewhere.  A Herald reporter interviewed a lady to whom it was said this story had been told, but she denied any knowledge of it."...
[another article, prob. Friday, same paper]:
26: "THE POISON THEORY
        Facts may develope that will show the importance of the poison episode
        , but as yet the facts are meager.  It appears that Lizzie Borden was ill
         with the rest of the family, and Dr. Bowen was called to attend them.
         Lizzie had told a friend the day before the muder that she was afraid
         somebody had tampered with the milk which had been left at the house.
         She seemed very much disturbed about it and remarked:  'I am afraid
         that father has an enemy.'  Little was thought of the matter then, but in
         the light of subsequent developments this may prove to be     
         important."

--So far I can account for Lizzie telling Fleet Thursday things she had told Alice, and here is a reference to Lizzie telling a friend about the robbery (which they say was told at the time, but that might be mixed up with recently), and a disclosure here as well that Lzzie told a friend the night before the muders that the milk might be poisoned and Andrew might have an enemy.

--It might be that Alice Russell's name was protected and that there really was a statement made early on and not divulged in it's entirety to shield the friend.  Of course, that leaves out the dress-burning incident which was told Hanscomb but he elected not to tell that story.
............
[edit here:]
Fleet (Trial) repeats:
"Oh, no. Miss Russell was in the room, and she says to Lizzie, "Tell him all; tell him what you was telling me."  And she looked at Miss Russell, and then she says, "About two weeks ago a man came to the house, to the front door, and had some talk with father, and talked as though he was angry."  And I asked her what he was talking about.  She said, "He was talking about a store, and father said to him, 'I cannot let you have the store for that purpose;’ "---The man seemed to be angry.  I then came down stairs."
--This is the same record of that occurrence that Alice writes in her letter to Moody, June 2, 1893-
"She told me about a man that came to see her father.  She heard him say I don't want to let my property for such business, and the man answered sneeringly..."

From the FR Herald:
"Lizzie had told a friend the day before the muder that she was afraid
somebody had tampered with the milk..."
--This is also from Alice's letter:
"...she had thought perhaps the milk had been poisoned."

Witness Statements, Doherty, about Bowen, pg. 4:
"In low tones the Doctor told me he was satisfied there was something wrong, for they were all sick the day before."
Witness Statements, Harrington, pg. 6
"He [Dolan] called me and said, 'Phil, I want you to take care of this milk, the family has been sick, and I dont want you to leave it until I relieve you.' ”
--This is from Alice's letter:
Lizzie had said, "father and Mrs. Borden were awfully sick last night."
"Mrs. Borden had told the doctor about Mr. Borden's being sick and he went over to see him."

--The robbery was known, and Alice, in her letter, does say she had not heard of that before.
--That a man had run around the house, and that is in Lizzie's Inquest testimony.
--Father has "trouble with the men that he had dealings with" comes from Alice's letter and:
Churchill, Witness Statements, pg. 12, on the 8th of August:
"The Doctor then went out. Lizzie said, I think father must have an enemy, for we were all sick. "
Churchill, Inquest:
” She said 'father must have had an enemy, for we have all been sick, and we think the milk has been poisoned.' ”

--I think everything is covered except how Lizzie said she felt at Marion that one day, "something hanging over her..." and  that she expected "nothing but that the house will be burned down over our heads."

--And of course, to reiterate, the dress burning of Sunday, which, of course was not in the letter--But:  Alice did tell that to Hanscomb on Monday and then left the house for good.  So she did disclose that to Lizzie's *man* and he chose not to pass on the info, as far as we know.






(Message last edited Nov-23rd-03  6:26 PM.)

Please see my edit to previous post. 

Thanks Kat.  It looks like it leaked out in dribbles, mostly through other parties. 

I guess Moody in June of 93 wanted the complete story as Alice remembered it. And he wanted it in writing.

Yes and it still seems odd that Lizzie did tell the full tale to Alice Wednesday night so that now it sounds like a dry run for the stories she would tell, subsequently.

Oooh, on the subject of Alice, here's a tidbit I hi-lighted from pg 192 of The L.B. Sourcebook -- an interview with a Mrs William Lindsay, which seems to contradict the tales of woe & foreboding Lizzie was telling Alice:

"...Lizzie told me that on the morning of the murder she was very happy, filled with anticipations of her vacation trip."

The best sources are those close to the event, not months or years afterwards. Because time changes memories. You do agree?

Which could mean it was "improved" in the retelling?

Ray, that article was The Fall River Herald and it was discussing events of Wednesday, August 31, 1892.  The publish dates around it are Sept.1, 1892, so that snippet by TinaKate was a memory from 27 days before.

Thanks Kat.  Perhaps I should have specified the date.

Something very interesting about these interviews that occurred shortly after the murders -- people like this Mrs Lindsay, Mrs Brigham & Rev Buck had absolutely nothing but positive things to say about Lizzie, Emma & the relations in the family.

The impression I got was that Lizzie was telling different versions of her homelife to different people, depending on what she wanted them to see.

Well they didn't stay around too long after the trial.
Buck died and I'm not familiar with Lindsay and I heard a story about Mrs. Brigham which was very telling.
That later in life she aligned herself with Emma and was invited to Lizzie's funeral but did not go which sent a message to society.  She did, however, attend Emma's funeral, and that, supposedly, is the rest of the story.

Yes, I remember FRHS Curator Emeritus Florence Brigham (Mrs Brigham's daughter-in-law) saying in an interview (one of the TV shows) that her mother-in-law felt pressured to give up her friendship with Lizzie because she was losing other friends as a result.  That relationship could not have run so very deep.

I can see in the stories told by different people that Lizzie seemed to paint a rosy picture for the Central Cong crowd, & yet quite another for say, Alice, who had closely witnessed some of the goings on over the years.  Lizzie prob didn't feel the need to impress Alice.  After all, she didn't aspire to Alice's social circle.  Poor Alice ended up being a pawn, but she wasn't so dumb.

& again, contrast the stories from the Holmes, Rev Buck, Mrs Brigham, etc. with testimonials of Abby's stepmother Jane Gray & her step-sister Mrs Whitehead from the Witness Statements -- they were more than willing to pass on what they knew of Abby's probs with the girls.

Also in newspaper articles, there are friends of Bridget (not named) who say Bridget talked a lot about the on-going probs in the house, in spite of Bridget's sworn testimonies.  This rings true to me.  Who hasn't complained about work agro to their friends?  I see Bridget as being scared witless to admit anything.

& Emma comes out & admits the disharmony between herself & Abby in the Trial.  She's protecting Lizzie by taking on that responsibility herself, knowing she has an alibi.

I'm also seeing that "so happy I was going on vacation" line as a planned back-up to the searching-for-sinkers story.

Hmmmmmmm, does anyone know if Lizzie suffered from depression?

Also in the Sourcebook (pg 340) is an interview with Lizzie legatee Helen Leighton (given June 12, 1927, Fall River Herald) --

"...But these moments of happiness were fleeting.  Much of the time she was desperately unhappy and she had days of most terrible depression."

Of course, this is in her later years.

There also 2 sources of her nervousness, one her own letter to Brayton about his noisy bird.  She said she had trouble sleeping.
This was after moving to French Street, of course.
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/lizartifactsassets/letterpage2.jpg

Or it could be that different people heard and remembered differently. Ever notice this in your own conversations with coworkers or family?

So Bridget talke alot about problems at work? But not for the record? She knew how to keep her mouth shut, the wise action for most lower status people. "I didn't see or hear anything."
Maybe the witnesses to the JFK assassination also talked too much?

Which bird was that?
I once read that it was the custom to keep chickens for ornamentation (they also ate bugs). Buff Orpingtons were the favorite. Most city zoning laws prevent this; groceries stores want you to buy from them.

Since the note says it "crows so much" it is assumed to be a rooster.

Of course!! To keep the hens laying. In the good old days you could get fresh eggs. Maybe even keep a cow. But there were then no Big Grocery chains to restrict people's rights.

yes Tina Kate I agree, lots of differing opinions. Plus the way
everybody kept to themselves and didn't really talk.  I was so lucky
to meet Florence Brigham at the FRHS in 92, she was
a perky little lady and enjoyed talking to all of us and said about
the same as you report. I have wondered if she is still alive?
Does anyone know?

Sorry to report, I heard Mrs Brigham passed away a few years back.  I do not know exactly when.

"The Broken Branch." Lizzie Borden Quarterly VII.2 (April 2000): 22-23.
"Two-pages devoted to the passing of Florence Cook Brigham, former curator of the Fall River Historical Society. One entire page consists of four photographs of Mrs. Brigham, from her youth to later years."

--From: http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources/BibliographyLBQAuth.htm

Thank you for that link but I don't see any reference to Florence
Brigham.  Are the LBQ's on line somewhere?  I have them only from
the early 90's.

I am lucky in that I know pretty much where everything is at the web-site.
I went to the Bibliography because I helped Stef with that section on the LBQ's.  I knew to "search" that annotated page for "Brigham".
What I pasted here is the notation.
The LBQ is not on-line anywhere .

Lizzie Borden:  A Case Book of Family and Crime in the 1890's, edited by Williams, Smithburn, and Peterson, 1980, pg. 42-44.

[An Interview with Hiram Harrington - here's that Wednesday night, Aug. 3rd story again, this time on the 6th]: (partial)

"Fall River Daily Herald, Aug. 6, 1892:

CLOSE IN MONEY MATTERS

....
....'Did you go and look for your stepmother?'  I asked.  'Who found her?'  But she did not reply.  I pressed her for some idea of the motive and the author of the act, and after she had thought a moment, she said, calmly:  'A year ago last spring our house was broken into while father and mother were at Swansey, and a large amount of money stolen, together with diamonds.  You never heard of it because father did not want it mentioned, so as to give the detectives a chance to recover the property.  That may have some connection with the murder.  Then I have seen strange men around the house.  A few months ago I was coming through the back yard, and, as I approached the side door, I saw a man there examining the door and premises.  I did not mention it to anyone.  The other day I saw the same man hanging about the house, evidently watching us.  I became frightened and told my parents about it.  I also wrote to my sister at Fairhaven about it.'  Miss Borden then gave it as her opinion that the strange man had a direct connection with the murder, but she could not see why the house was not robbed, and did not know of anyone who would desire revenge upon her father.'  "



(Message last edited Nov-30th-03  10:14 PM.)

I'm glad this subject came up Har.  I never put all this together before.  I learned something interesting...That all did not rely on Alice...she wasn't as important for that Wednesday night meeting as believed.  (Other than it looks like Lizzie was perfecting her story.)
I bet Emma never produced that letter, and the parents are dead and cannot verify she told them of the strange prowler.

(Message last edited Nov-30th-03  10:23 PM.)