1. "What if the Bordens were drunks?"
Posted by kashesan on May-30th-03 at 7:06 AM

Can you imagine the scenes? Or the police logs? (Officer Allen, run over to 92-the Bordens are at it again)

For people who were apparently teetotallers, the Bordens did seem to attract a good deal of police attention.  First there were the reports of Lizzie's shoplifting, which might have come to the attention of the authorities.  Then there was that daylight robbery.  We know the police were called that time.  And then there were a couple of break-ins involving the barn.  Possibly they were aware of those too.  And finally a double murder!

She would have had to go to the drugstore for her 'medicinal' brandy. Ahem!

As I remember it, the phone call of "some trouble" by the Borden home was interpreted as a knife fight between two men. Somebody wrote so. That's why the Marshall sent only one man to run over and see. When the truth was learned, every available officer was sent there.
...
Isn't drunkeness the opposite of miserliness? Know of any such?

(Message last edited May-30th-03  4:35 PM.)

Then the upset stomaches and headaches were hangovers? Too much partying? Now that's a funny thought! Abby dancing with Andrew as Lizzie plays the piano in the parlour. Emma, of course, noticibly absent. Probably upstairs praying for their immortal souls. She might have made a good nun.

LOLOL @ Emma praying for their souls.....what a funny image!

I have a suspicion, however, that deeper secrets lurked in the Borden home.... does anyone know of a thread that addresses potential incest in the home (namley, between Andrew and Lizzie)? Just curious....

Heres a link to one of the most recent ones, Terrie.
http://www.arborwood.com/awforums/show-topic-1.php?start=41&fid=27&taid=1&topid=1246

Scroll down the page a bit.  I've read in a couple of articles by psychiatrists that in their opinion, Lizzie's behaviour was much like the victim of incest.  I will have to see if I can find those articles again.

Kash, what a funny post!    I love the image of Emma praying for their souls!  Abby would be found by the guest room bed, passed out from too much drink.  Andrew would be passed out on the sitting room sofa.  Lizzie would be found unconcious in the barn or in her room from all her drinking.  So, if the Bordens were drunks, I don't think there would have been a murder, unless they were violent drunks, then, who knows? 

Harry, we need an Emma as a Nun image here!

Terrie,

American Heritage magazine had an article some years ago that was based on the theory that Lizzie was a victim of incest.  I would guess that checking the American Heritage index would lead you to the article.

Kat, thats great!    So, what year is that photo originally from?  I was wondering because theres people on the front stoop of #92 and they don't look like our usual suspects. 

That photo is from Victorian Vistas and is misidentified as #92 Second Street, or whatever # they changed it to, later.
V.V. is not famous for it's source origins.  Sorry

Good one, Kat!  At least you found a good use for that phony photo.  Emma does look "right" as a nun, doesn't she?  (After studying that picture at length, I decided it was probably taken after the turn of the 19th/20th Century, judging by the people's clothing.)

So, thats not the Borden's house?  It sure looks like it down to the tree out front.  Strange. 

Thanks, Edisto.  If it was the Borden's home "the girls" were certainly out of it by that time and in Maplecroft. 

It sure looks like it to me -- is that the only style
of house they have in Fall River? Didn't the Ferry Street
house look like it too?

Actually, the second st. home was not the norm. Most homes had more ornamentation and style. i think that house reflected andy so well - austere, void of cheer and warmth - no wonder he picked it!

The front door is not recessed.  Stef & Edisto noticed this I believe.


(Message last edited Jun-4th-03  2:43 AM.)

I think we had a thread on this topic and found there seemed to be many houses like this and Ferry Street, at that time, didn't we?

Maybe they are mostly gone now, I don't know, but there was a big fire that I DO know.

Thanks, Kat, I guess those 2 are better detectives than I.  I didn't notice about the door until you pointed it out, its still very close down to that tree out front!  I guess it was Sister Emma that took my mind of the door. 

The man who provided the photo and put the book together didn't notice either and he put out 3 books!  So I wouldn't think twice about not noticing.
(Except you are into architecture.  If my funny pic distracted you that much, I'd say that was a compliment..so Thank YOU!)
Do you recall that we did look around and found these house plans rather typical for the times?
I would think a fire like they had in Fall River, tho, might totally change the face of the city for a more modern resident.  Is that a safe assumption?

As I recall, the houses close to the mills were pretty bare - they were built on the cheap for the workers. The same may be true of the houses downtown. When you get into the neighborhoods that are mostly residential, you see nicer homes. This is probably true of many communities, eh?

So many of the old homes in FR have sweeping porches and picture windows, gables and other decorative elements. That's what I mean about Andy's house being so plain. Perhaps it was originally built to lodge ferry workers, or tradesmen, etc. Ya think?

You surely know more about pre-modern Fall River than I do.
But I know the fire came almost within a block it seems of #92...in 1928.
It was too soon after the deaths of Lizbeth & Emma to affect what was eventually collected or donated to the FRHS.  Even they lost their stock.
As I say, after that devastation was probably built your Fall River which you remember.
I may be wrong, so I am not positive.
If anyone proves otherwise I'm willing to change my impression.

The Borden house was built in 1845 by Southard Miller.  I seem to remember we looked around and saw that two-family tenement style often in that era.
Back then they seemed to have 3 designations for a regular abode of a family:
A boarding house, a tenement and a "Manse", sometimes called a mansion.
Can you believe that #92 was called a Mansion by some news articles?
I think this was because that was a deignation for a single family home.
It had been converted when the Borden's moved in.
I don't know quite what they called the Big Houses.

Hi Kat,

Those are my impressions, from what I remember from growing up there. I know a little about the history of FR, but have not studied it the way you have.

I do know there are many tenement houses in FR. Many of them are magnificent with beautiful mahogony wood work, beveled mirrors, fireplaces, french and sliding doors, etc. We lived in an apartment like that. Huge, three bedrooms, dining room, parlor, balconies, etc. It was quite lovely. Then there were tenement homes like Andy's - seemingly bare bones - no nonsense housing. Little detail, functional, well-built, etc. I have seen many like that as well.

Anyhoo - that's what I remember. 

I wonder which would be preferable...a pretty and decorative flat in a building, or a whole house, even if it was plain?

You know, I seem to be finding more and more doctors in the neighborhood of Second Street.  I begin to wonder if one of the Borden's might be a hypochondriac?!

NOT AT ALL!!! In the olden days in the city where I grew up, the Doctors were located along one street that paralleled Main St, one block in. Less costly than the stores there, but just as convenient.

It seems natural for all those involved in the same trade to locate close to each other. English old towns, the Continent too?