Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden Topic Name: Lizzie and the Federal census  

1. "Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by harry on Feb-10th-04 at 9:53 AM

This web site has images of 4 Federal census pages showing Lizzie. They are dated 1870, 1880, 1910 and 1920. They are kind of hard to read but very interesting. The 1910 and 1920 listings show the names of Lizzie's housekeeper and servant.

http://www.rootdig.com/lizzie_borden.html


2. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Susan on Feb-10th-04 at 12:14 PM
In response to Message #1.

Wow, what a great find, Harry!  I was trying to read at the top of the census from 1870 where it says Lizzie was "Attending School", they break down the population into ethnic groups: white, black, mulatto, chinese and ?  It starts with an L.  I find it interesting as it gives us a breakdown of the population of Fall River at the time.  Thanks so much, cool find! 


3. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-10th-04 at 1:38 PM
In response to Message #1.

That is cool Har!
Do you think these people listed lived next door to each other?  "Entwhistle"?

Right below the Borden family is Hiram Harrington and that was cut off there.
As you know HH & Lurana and Bordens all lived together at 12 Ferry Street in 1870, the page to which I allude.  So where are the rest of them? (Abraham & wife)

[I'm looking at my timeline and I see that after Abraham's wife, Phoebe Davenport died, he deeded Ferry Street to Andrew & Lurana, 1854.
Lurana had married that year and so did Abraham marry again that year.
But that would make Andrew "Head of Household" so his name would come first in the Borden family in the 1870 census.  Abraham & Bebe probably are listed after Hiram on that page which is cut off.]


4. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-10th-04 at 2:07 PM
In response to Message #3.


5. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-10th-04 at 2:13 PM
In response to Message #4.

I guess this explains that these are not house numbers:



(Message last edited Feb-10th-04  2:15 PM.)


6. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by diana on Feb-10th-04 at 2:36 PM
In response to Message #2.

Susan -- I'm guessing the "L" is for "Latino"?  Even with my magnifying glass I can't be totally sure -- but the letters seem to fit.
Thanks for sharing that, Harry.  Great find!


7. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-10th-04 at 2:55 PM
In response to Message #6.

The "L" comes after the word "Italian".


8. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by diana on Feb-10th-04 at 3:13 PM
In response to Message #7.

I'll have to defer to your opinion Kat.  The image on my screen is too blurry for me to argue it.  I guess I was trying to reconcile that "L" because the first letter of the other designations match the bracketed letters that follow -- also I thought 'Latino" might encompass Italian, Spanish, and that ubiquitous Portuguese population of Fall River.


9. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by harry on Feb-10th-04 at 3:22 PM
In response to Message #8.

It looks like a capitol I followed by a period which makes it look like an L  ie:

I. with the period closer to the letter.


10. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-10th-04 at 3:23 PM
In response to Message #7.

Notice in the 1910 census, Lizzie is listed as "Lizzie".  In 1920, she is now listed as "Lizbeth".
We have found that Lizzie built onto the house at 306 French Street sometime after 1910, changed her name to Lizbeth sometime after 1910, named her house "Maplecroft" sometime after 1910- and yet Emma left in 1905 and Lizzie's friendship with Nance O'Neil was over before 1910.

(Message last edited Feb-10th-04  3:27 PM.)


11. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-10th-04 at 3:26 PM
In response to Message #9.

Yes Harry's right.
I'm sorry I can't make it any more clear in my picture of it.


12. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Jimmy Windeskog on Feb-10th-04 at 5:42 PM
In response to Message #10.

>Notice in the 1910 census, Lizzie is listed as
>"Lizzie".  In 1920, she is now listed as
>"Lizbeth".

>We have found that Lizzie built onto the house at 306 French
>Street sometime after 1910, changed her name to Lizbeth
>sometime after 1910, named her house "Maplecroft"
>sometime after 1910- and yet Emma left in 1905 and Lizzie's
>friendship with Nance O'Neil was over before 1910.

Kat, was is your point?


13. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-10th-04 at 6:06 PM
In response to Message #12.

Legends abound that Lizzie moved to French Street, promptly changed her name and also christened her house Maplecroft and got busy running around with actors.  And that these things embarrassed Emma and she left.

We see now that these things did not happen so fast, that there was a progression and a starting date of 1910 is new info to most people- isn't it to you?


14. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Jimmy Windeskog on Feb-10th-04 at 6:24 PM
In response to Message #13.

I have not quite connected Lizzie's "change of name" and  the naming of Maplecroft to the disappearence of Emma and the rumours around O'Neil.

But isn't it still correct to connect Emma's break to Lizzie and Lizzie's new friendship to O'Neil and the parties to follow?


15. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by njwolfe on Feb-10th-04 at 6:52 PM
In response to Message #1.

What an interesting site! It reminded me of the many old books
in my office when I was Town Clerk in Vermont and the Mormons came
one summer and microfilmed everything, they went all over the country.
I wonder if the Mormon records have some untapped info from Fall River, Butte, Hastings... I wonder if they have a web-site. Just thinking out-loud, I'll research it and report back!  
  I wonder if the I. meant "immigrant"? 


16. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Doug on Feb-10th-04 at 6:56 PM
In response to Message #15.

Could the I. word be "Indian"?


17. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by robert harry on Feb-10th-04 at 7:10 PM
In response to Message #9.

The way I read it, the "L" is given as a way to indicate "Italian"--doesn't it read, Black (B), Italian (L) ?


18. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by robert harry on Feb-10th-04 at 7:12 PM
In response to Message #17.

Come to think of it, on second look, it does look like it's a capital "I" right next to a period, and not an "L" after all.


19. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-10th-04 at 7:24 PM
In response to Message #11.



(Message last edited Feb-10th-04  7:25 PM.)


20. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-10th-04 at 7:28 PM
In response to Message #14.

Yes you're right.
But what we have here seems to be 2 different time frames.
Emma and Lizzie breaking up in 1905, and Lizzie's friendship with Nance from 1905 through 1906 (?).

The next stage would be the changes to the house and the naming of it and her name change 4 to 5 years later.


21. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by audrey on Feb-10th-04 at 10:29 PM
In response to Message #20.

Wasn't Maplecroft chiseled into granite?

Was this granite original to the structure or was is initially common concrete or cement?

In Emma's one and only interview she refers to the place as "The French Street Mansion", NOT Maplecroft.  Seems to me she never lived in it as "Maplecroft".


22. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by audrey on Feb-10th-04 at 10:34 PM
In response to Message #21.

Also...

Didn't it take a while before Emma gave Lizzie her share of the inheritance?

If so-- Lizzie may have been unable to order such work done without Emma's approval-- likewise-- even if she had her half, she may have only owned half the home and would have needed Emma's agreement to do such carving.

In Emma's will, she does not state outright if she owns any interest in the French Street house-- She leaves her half to Lizzie if she does, and if not- she leaves her $1000


23. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Albanyguy on Feb-10th-04 at 11:11 PM
In response to Message #22.

I still think it's likely that house was called Maplecroft right from the time the sisters purchased it and the inscription on the front step was carved at that time or shortly thereafter.  I think both Radin and Lincoln are in agreement on this (and since those two are usually on opposite ends of the spectrum, if they agree on anything, it's probably safe). 

The 1910 census is interesting, but it doesn't necessarily follow that Lizzie wasn't using either "Lizbeth" or "Maplecroft" prior to 1910.  She could very well have been calling herself "Lizbeth" right along and still listed herself as "Lizzie" on the census form.  It was after all her legal name and she may have thought that she was required to use it on the census form.  Likewise, she may have thought that all the census form required was the house's street address.  As Kat pointed out, the use of her new name and house name probably grew gradually over the years.  Ten years later, in 1920, she may have been so firmly entrenched as "Lizbeth of Maplecroft" that she used those names without hesitation.  I have a friend who was a census taker and he says it's incrdible how people unthinkingly mangle the forms with contradictory names, addresses, etc.

And we may be reading way too much into this.  After all, in 1910 it probably took Lizzie all of three minutes to fill out her census form.  She probably dashed it off, never dreaming that a century later a bunch of strangers would be avidly pouring over it, searching for clues to her life.   

As for Emma, calling the house Maplecroft was apparently Lizzie's idea.  It probably sounded pretentious and overly romantic to a plain-spoken Yankee like Emma, so she referred to it as simply "the French Street house".  Or maybe she refused to call it Maplecroft as a passive-agressive way to needle Lizzie.  Passive-agressive little gestures were a favorite form of communication for the Borden family.



(Message last edited Feb-10th-04  11:31 PM.)


24. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Jimmy Windeskog on Feb-11th-04 at 6:26 AM
In response to Message #23.

Correct me if iam wrong here, but Lizzie did not ever legaly changed her namn to Lizbeth", did she?


25. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Jim on Feb-11th-04 at 8:35 AM
In response to Message #15.

As regards the post about members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints:  they just might have information on Lizzie and others related to the case.  The church is devoted to geneology preservation (for spiritual as well as practical reasons) and I, too, wonder if they have recorded information on Lizzie.  I am not a member of LDS but I have a friend who is and she told me that the local LDS church in our community has on-line access to all of the church's geneolgy records.  I would not be a bit surprised if Lizzie's name appeared along with those of the other people in this story. 


26. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Albanyguy on Feb-11th-04 at 8:52 AM
In response to Message #24.

As far as I know, Jimmy, Lizzie never legally changed her name to "Lizbeth".


27. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by harry on Feb-11th-04 at 9:34 AM
In response to Message #26.

Rebello, in a footnote, on page 560 writes:

"Note: Lizzie signed some land deeds with two signatures, Lizzie A. Borden and Lizbeth A. Borden or Lizzie A. Borden. Since Lizzie never changed her name legally, she was required to use her legal name Lizzie A. Borden when she wanted to use Lizbeth A. Borden."

On page 316 Rebello has this:

"Lizzie was, for the first time, listed in the 1905 Fall River City Directory as Lizbeth A. Borden and continued to be listed in this way in the directories until her death in 1927."


28. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Jimmy Windeskog on Feb-11th-04 at 9:49 AM
In response to Message #27.

Thanks Albanyguy and Harry.
Thats clear that question. But one can wonder why Lizzie used tha namne Lizbeth sometimes, I like "Lizzie" much better....


29. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by William on Feb-11th-04 at 11:53 AM
In response to Message #21.

The word, "Maplecroft" was chiseled into the top riser of the stoop made from Fall River granite. Leonard Rebello (priv. comm.) believes this occurred sometime after 1913. Prior to this installation, the stoop was constructed of wood. (See photo in Rebello p. 253).

(Message last edited Feb-11th-04  11:53 AM.)


30. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Susan on Feb-11th-04 at 12:05 PM
In response to Message #19.

Thanks gang!  Interesting, they have it listed as color, not race.  I'm assuming that Italian meant anyone who had a darker complexion and not that they were actually Italian?  Like the Portuguese for instance, didn't they make up a large number of the population there even then? 


31. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by William on Feb-11th-04 at 12:17 PM
In response to Message #14.

Jimmy: Hope this helps.

March 9, 1903: Rev Edwin Augustus Buck dies in England.

February 23, 1904: Lizzie sees Nance O'Neil in a performance of Macbeth.

1904: During the summer of this year, Lizzie meets Nance O'Neil at a resort near Boston. Nance also appeared at the Academy of Music in Fall River the same year.

1905: The newspapers report that Lizzie entertained Nance at Maplecroft, a report that Nance denies later in life, saying she never visited Maplecroft.

June 3, 1905: Emma leaves Maplecroft.

April 13, 1913: Emma gives an interview to a reporter of the Boston Sunday Post in the home of the late Rev. Buck.During this interview
she said, "The happenings at French Street that caused me to leave I refuse to talk about.  I did not go until the conditions became absolutely unbearable.  Then, before taking action I consulted the Rev. A.E. Buck, who for years had been the family spiritual advisor.  After carefully listening to my story, he said it was imperative that I should make my home else where."

NOTE:  Emma had this conversation with the Rev. Buck, prior to his death on March 9, 1903, the year BEFORE Lizzie met Nance.  How could Nance have been the cause of the dispute that caused Emma to leave Maplecrot? A more likely possibility for Emma's leaving could be Lizzies possible dalliance with their coachman, Tetrault, a handsome devil known to be very popular with the ladies.  He had been fired but Lizzie rehired him after Emma left. He stayed at Maplecroft until 1908.


32. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by audrey on Feb-11th-04 at 12:39 PM
In response to Message #31.

Excellent detective work William!

It is news to me!


33. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Jimmy Windeskog on Feb-11th-04 at 12:51 PM
In response to Message #32.

WELL DONE William!!!

I proved quite a few pepole and writers their theorys wrong here!

You proved what both Alicia Morris and Dave Rehak must has been wrong on this subject!

One question that comes to mind is; "could it be a lie that Nance visited Maplecroft at all? Imean, if Nance denies - who is really the witness that she was there at all?

But from another point, what DID make Emma leave? And why did she waited at least 2 years to move? I and dont know if it is ture that Emma and Lizzie did not talk to one and other again once she moved, but if she waited 2 years to move, wolud she be SO upset?

(Message last edited Feb-11th-04  1:15 PM.)


34. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by lydiapinkham on Feb-11th-04 at 1:30 PM
In response to Message #21.

Re:  granite steps

One of the things that first struck me when I moved to NH many years ago was the fact that you'll find more curbs and steps of granite than of concrete.  There is good reason for our being called "The Granite State."  Gardeners despair over the rocks they keep striking when tilling their soil. Those beautiful old (and new) stone walls were generally built of stones unearthed in just such a way.  In true Yankee fashion, the farmers put them to good use.  Anyway, if they didn't have a goodly supply of granite in Fall River, they would have a ready supply up here, which could be sent downriver.

--Lyddie


35. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Raymond on Feb-11th-04 at 2:50 PM
In response to Message #33.

But woould Nance O'Neil have a self-serving reason for denying this contact with Lizzie?
Guilty conscious to bringing discord between the sisters?


36. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by william on Feb-11th-04 at 4:11 PM
In response to Message #34.

From all reports, Lyddie, Fall River had an embarassment of riches in the granite department.

Many of the mills and many of the public buildings were constructed from Fall River granite. Some of the large textile mills owned their own quarries.

Fall River granite was also shipped to Newport, New Bedford, New York, Bristol, Providence and Warren.


37. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-11th-04 at 10:43 PM
In response to Message #23.

In Rebello, I missed the notation about "Lizbeth" as early as 1905 in the City Directory.  Thanks Harry!
I was depending upon the reference, page 317, where Lizzie is designated as "Lizbeth" in her phone listing, Exchange 378, 1917, and the census information.
I can understand Lizzie calling herself Lizbeth before the census of 1910-  & on the 1920 one, particularly.

The steps to the French Street house are recorded in photos.  Terence and Harry figured out the photo evidence a while ago.
I had made these comparison pictures before, but couldn't find them, so I just made them again.

The first shows an untouched house, and the 2nd shows all the alterations which were done in 1909.  (except we don't see the garage from this angle).
Also note the apparent date of the auto in front.  We are trying to find that out- if anyone knows.

The first photo is from Yankee Magazine, June, 1996, and the 2nd pic is from the LizzieAndrewBorden Virtual Museum & Library.



(Message last edited Feb-11th-04  11:14 PM.)


38. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by lydiapinkham on Feb-11th-04 at 11:16 PM
In response to Message #31.

William, I read this bit too hurriedly this afternoon and missed that key year, 1903!  Did Emma actually leave in '03 instead of '05, or did she fail to take Rev. Buck's advice immediately?  I had read all about his counsel before, but never juxtaposed next to his date of death--great discovery! This seems to bring a Lady Chatterly element into the story.

Didn't Nance freely admit to her friendship with Lizzie?  If she appeared in Fall River after their first meeting in 1904, it would seem logical for Lizzie to invite Nance to Maplecroft.  Could Nance have forgotten that time--remembering instead the visits to the Tyngsborough home? (Note: the town spelling has gone back in forth over the years; the English spelling is the preferred one these days.  Also, I want to try their library for info on Lizzie's place: whether it still stands, etc. I'll report back if I learn anything.

--Lyddie

(Message last edited Feb-11th-04  11:17 PM.)


39. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by lydiapinkham on Feb-11th-04 at 11:21 PM
In response to Message #36.

Makes sense, William; I doubt that rocks respect state lines!  It is weird at first how you see granite at every turn, often with quarry grooves or millstone holes drilled through them.  All I really meant to point out was the fact that granite steps would not have been extravagant or unusual--only the carving would.

--Lyddie


40. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by lydiapinkham on Feb-11th-04 at 11:24 PM
In response to Message #37.

Thank you, as usual, for the pictures, Kat!

--Lyddie


41. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by harry on Feb-11th-04 at 11:33 PM
In response to Message #39.

The rocks remind me of a scene I just saw in the movie "The Quiet Man". It stars John Wayne and Maureen O'Hara and takes place in Ireland.

In the scene, Wayne, an American who marries O'Hara, is trying to dig a garden and with each attempt the shovel hits a rock.  He turns to O'Hara and says something like "I'm beginning to believe you grow rocks over here."


42. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by william on Feb-12th-04 at 9:20 AM
In response to Message #29.

Correction to my message #21: Photograph in Rebello is on page 285, not 253.


43. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-12th-04 at 10:48 PM
In response to Message #37.

There is still some question as to the date of the second photo which BTW is in Radin opposite pg. 51.
William is trying to help me figure this out.
Will report back.


44. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-12th-04 at 11:24 PM
In response to Message #22.

Rebello, 280:
"An accounting of Andrew Borden's estate was filed by Emma Borden and witnessed by Andrew J. Jennings, Justice of the Peace, January 22, 1894.

'I, Emma L. Borden, Administratrix of the goods and estate of Andrew J. Borden, on oath depose and say that myself and Lizzie A. Borden are only children and heirs at law of said Andrew J. Borden late of Fall River in the said County of Bristol, deceased; that by request of and agreement with said Lizzie, I have not filed in said Court any Inventory of said estate or account of my administration; that I have duly paid all debts due from said estate and have divided and distributed the balance of the estate then remaining in my hands equally between myself and said Lizzie A. Borden the only other parties interested therein; and I request that this statement may be accepted and filed in lieu of and as a substitute for an itemized account as such Administratrix.'
/signed/ Emma L. Borden "

'I, Lizzie A. Borden, named in the foregoing statement of Emma L. Borden, do hereby certify that the facts stated in the foregoing affidavit are true and I request that said statement be accepted. in lieu of and as a substitute for any further or other account. I also acknowledge the receipt of my full share of the said estate of Andrew J. Borden and in the consideration of the__?__ do hereby release and discharge the said Emma L. Borden as such administratrix from any and all liability whatsoever arising from or __?__ of the administration of the estate of said Andrew J. Borden.'
/ signed/ Lizzie A. Borden"

"Executed in the presence of Henrietta Morse.

Note: The petition was accepted by Probate Court; therefore, no inventory of Andrew's estate was filed."...

"The 'Divvy' Made / Lizzie Borden and Emma Have 'Whacked Up / Strange Report Made in the Probate Court Yesterday / Andrew J. Borden's Estate Now in the Hands of His Daughters," Fall River Daily Globe, February 3, 1894: 1.

--I don't know if  this seems like a long time?  The sisters had bought the French Street house together before this time as well.
I believe they bought it in July and moved into it in September, 1893.
Lizzie's will took years to prove.


(Message last edited Feb-12th-04  11:26 PM.)


45. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Doug on Feb-14th-04 at 4:10 PM
In response to Message #44.

It seems to me this process took a relatively short time. If Andrew owned everything as an individual, owned no property in another state, and there were no other heirs or claimants it might help to explain the speed with which this process was completed. Perhaps Andrew held property in trust and this helped shield such property from the probate court. Also, Charles Cook and Andrew Jennings were evidently skilled in working with and through the probate process.

As far as the French St. house is concerned, Emma and Lizzie must have had enough cash on hand to purchase or at least make a down payment before Andrew's estate was divided and distributed. The seller must have known that the sisters "were good" for whatever they might have owed on the house before January 1894.


46. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-14th-04 at 6:59 PM
In response to Message #45.

Yes, I agree.  And to find out Andrew Jennings also acted as Justice of the Peace- he would know everything that Cook might not know- and expedite the probate process.  The fact that the girls forsook an inventory I thought, was rather progressive of them.

Lizzie's Will was still being accounted for as late as 1933!


47. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Doug on Feb-14th-04 at 11:39 PM
In response to Message #46.

Avoiding an inventory of Andrew's estate expedited the probate process and helped keep the cost of settlement down. It also maintained privacy regarding the details of Andrew's property holdings. Indeed Emma and Lizzie had very good counsel. And, apparently they followed their attorney's advice!


48. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by njwolfe on Feb-15th-04 at 3:57 PM
In response to Message #47.

But just looking at the wills, Lizzie had about a million and
Emma only 150,000. (from last pages of sourcebook)  Maybe Emma
didn't know how much she had when writing her will? 


49. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Doug on Feb-15th-04 at 6:47 PM
In response to Message #48.

Nancie, I don't have my sources at hand (I'm checking into the Forum while away on a trip) but I  believe Emma left substantially more than Lizzie, not the other way around.


50. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-16th-04 at 2:58 AM
In response to Message #48.

I posted this somewhere, lately.
It may be a confusion between todays evaluation and 1927?

There was not quite $100,000 difference, in favor of Emma, correct Doug.

The really fascinating part is that each started with 1/2 of Andrew's money- less than $200,000 each, and had more than that each upon death, after living on it the rest of their lives- 33 more years!  Now that's being savvy about Finance!

(Message last edited Feb-16th-04  3:01 AM.)


51. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Susan on Feb-16th-04 at 11:16 AM
In response to Message #50.

Yes, I always have to wonder, did Lizzie and Emma follow counsel from others to make their fortunes grow?  Or was it simply business acumen that was picked up from Andrew over the years?  Since Andrew had no sons to pass on his legacy to, do you think he made sure his daughters understood his business wheelings and dealings or was he a typical Victorian male and thought it too much for their female minds to comprehend? 


52. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by audrey on Feb-16th-04 at 1:54 PM
In response to Message #51.

They did own many buildings which they let for tennants.  With natural inflation and the raising of rents, they might have very well been able to live from the income while maintaining the principle and allowing it to grow via interest on accounts in banks and other investments.

What would be more telling is somehow being able to see if the main principle grew at the same rate as when Andrew was in charge of it.
I would be more than willing to bet the family chateau that he spent far less percentage of the income derived from his investments than Lizzie did!


53. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Harry on Feb-16th-04 at 2:47 PM
In response to Message #52.

Lizzie and Emma did pretty well for themselves with Maplecroft.  Lizzie and Emma paid $11,000 to $13,000 for Maplecroft in 1893. (Rebello, 286)

Andrew paid $10,000 (Rebello, 552) for 92 Second St. in April 1872.

Obviously Maplecroft was a much larger, more modern house, in a better neighborhood.

But this in Andrew's favor.  Using the Inflation Calculator, ( http://www.westegg.com/inflation/ ) the $10,000 Andrew spent would only be worth $7,507 in 1893.  1872 to 1893 must have been a period of deflation, and 1893 was a depression year.

There is also this in Rebello, page 552+:

"April 30 [1872]
Andrew J. Borden purchased from Charles Trafton for $10,000 a 30 square rod lot on the east side of Second Street in Fall River bounded on the south by Andrew J. Borden, on the east and north by John C. Milne and the heirs of Edward P. Buffinton. ...

Note: The home in which the murders took place on August 4, 1892, is located on this lot."

This would indicate to me that Andrew owned the lot south of 92 Second St. which would have been where the Kelly house was. Whether there was a house on that lot in 1872 I don't know.

Then again there were several Andrew J. Bordens in F.R.  Two Andrew J. Bordens living side by side.  Now that would be strange.




54. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Harry on Feb-16th-04 at 2:59 PM
In response to Message #50.

Here's the numbers from Rebello:

Emma (page 349)       $447,099.35

Lizzie (page 341)     $347,930.76

As Kat said, just short of $100,000.

Emma's estate had both a greater value in personal property and real estate property.

Lizzie did pretty well considering the life style she lived compared to Emma's frugality.  Lizzie probably would have thought it was well worth the difference of $100,000.

Luckily for Lizzie she was ostracized because if she had not been she probably would have spent it all trying to keep up with the Braytons, Chace's, etc.


55. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-16th-04 at 3:37 PM
In response to Message #54.

Keeping up wih the Braytons!
That's funny.  Yea you're right, i think she wouldhave spent anything to get into that crowd.

The lot next door, that ubiquitous #94- could that be Andrew's little lot, next to Kelly house at #96?
Where Leary Press is now?


56. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Doug on Feb-17th-04 at 1:32 PM
In response to Message #54.

Thanks, Harry and Kat, for checking into the values of Emma's and Lizzie's property and estates. I tend to think that while Emma and Lizzie may have picked up some business knowledge and sense at their father's knee, they probably relied on outside advice (ie, Charles Cook) regarding their later business dealings. Neither daughter seems to have had much business experience prior to August 4, 1892. I recall Emma testifying that she didn't even take much interest in the household marketing/grocery shopping! But both Emma and Lizzie knew who to call when they needed professional help.


57. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-18th-04 at 1:08 AM
In response to Message #56.

Yea you're right.  They seem to have had great advice!
Any ideas on why Lizbeth wanted to own French Street tho, buying up lots?
Seems like a fruitless endeavor.

(Message last edited Feb-18th-04  1:09 AM.)


58. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Doug on Feb-19th-04 at 5:48 PM
In response to Message #57.

Kat, if I was Lizbeth living on French St. I would perhaps want to assure space between me and my neighbors, especially possible future neighbors. Lizzie couldn't do much about the house just west of Maplecroft (Swift family, I believe) which is very close but she could purchase other nearby property that might come available and offer the possibility of a buffer.


59. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Doug on Feb-19th-04 at 5:59 PM
In response to Message #54.

Using the Inflation Calculator ( http://www.westegg.com/inflation/ ) for the years 1927 and 2002, Emma's estate would now be worth around $4,382,000 and Lizzie's estate would now be worth around $3,410,000.


60. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-19th-04 at 6:33 PM
In response to Message #59.

So the $100,000 became a million!?

I see by the 1892 City Directory that there was a Leander Borden living at 21 French Street.
Already a Borden there- though a distant one!

see relationship, post # 11 at link:
http://www.arborwood.com/awforums/show-topic-1.php?start=11&fid=27&taid=3&topid=1894


61. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Gramma on Feb-19th-04 at 10:39 PM
In response to Message #60.

Kat,
Have all the neighbors surrounding Maplecroft when Lizzie was there been discussed here? I wish my papers were here on that. it seems like I remember a feeling of her being "surrounded" by family names you see involved in the trial somehow.
Even my grandparents ended up living on Belmont Street, only a couple of blocks away. My mother was born there.


62. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-19th-04 at 11:22 PM
In response to Message #61.

Thanks for the pix!  Family pictures are almost sacred and it's very good of you to share this.

Here is an excerpt of Terence's article called All Things Swift, in which he recounts some information on Lizzie at French Street, her neighbors, and plans for renovations:

..."Not only did Marcus G. B. Swift have a great impact on Lizzie's life by persuading Alice to tell the Grand Jury about the dress burning; he became the next-door neighbor of Lizzie and Emma a mere two months after the trial ended. Though his wife, Mary Duncan Milne, was Lizzie's 4th cousin once removed, it seems doubtful these two ladies, eighteen years apart in age, ever knew of their kinship. However, they may have become friends after a fashion. After all, Mary's father, Alexander Milne, a Baptist minister, was born and grew up in Scotland - one of Lizzie's favorite places on Earth. When the Borden sisters bought the house next to theirs, three (and possibly four) teenage boys were living there as well (all being sons of Marcus and Mary). James, John and Milne were nineteen, almost sixteen and fourteen. If Orson was still living, he would have been seventeen in 1927. But the Swifts' kinship to Lizzie doesn't stop there! Mary Duncan Milne's youngest brother, James Thomas Milne, married Mattie Gardner, whose father was Samuel Borden Gardner! Like James and Orson, Mattie too was Lizzie's 5th cousin.
 
Interestingly, Lizzie and Marcus G. B. Swift were related as well - half-6th cousins once removed! How might it have affected Marcus Swift during those moments when he was advising Alice Russell, if he had known Lizzie was related to both himself and his wife, and also to his wife's sister-in-law? Would he have felt a duty to protect Lizzie at the expense of encouraging Alice to tell prosecuting attorney Knowlton what she had seen?
 
One example of how knowledge of kinship can affect attitudes and behavior occurred recently when I was in Newport, Rhode Island at a home on Washington street where Lizzie had visited years ago. Although my own kinship to Lizzie is even more tenuous than that of Mattie Gardner or the Swifts (with Lizzie and myself being 7th cousins 3 times removed), during a discussion with about ten others in the parlor of the Covell "Villa Marina" my mention that Lizzie and I were cousins 'though quite distant' totally changed the dynamic of the conversation. Now everyone was 'all ears' because perhaps they felt that in some sense Lizzie herself had entered the room!
 
Marcus G. B. Swift also served on a committee appointed to discuss accusations that Arba Nelson Lincoln had made against Judge Josiah C. Blaisdell. The Judge, of course, had presided at the inquest, this being the only forum where Lizzie Borden ever testified. Arba Lincoln, 5th cousin to Victoria Lincoln's father, lived at 25 French street. In March 1893, he was forty-three years old, a lawyer and Special Justice of the 2nd District Court. Judge Blaisdell was seventy-two. Lincoln resigned from his position with this court because 'he failed to receive fair play' from the Judge and 'he could not remain in his position as associate justice without violating his self-respect.' Besides Marcus G. B. Swift, members of the committee also included Andrew Jackson Jennings, attorney for the Borden sisters, among others. On April 10, 1893, Blaisdell sent his letter of resignation to Governor William E. Russell (probably no kin to Alice - she was, however, only three years older than the governor). The committee met two days later. Blaisdell's resignation was effective nine days after that.
 
In February 1902, Marcus G. B. Swift died. It may be that his widow needed to sell off some property to meet expenses, but in any case later that year Lizzie bought "11.67 square rods on the east side of Belmont Street" from Mary D. Swift. It was to be "kept and continued open and free from any building or buildings." At that time Lizzie almost certainly did not yet own a car. She probably had not thought about the exact use she might make of this lot, perhaps only acquiring it because it adjoined her property and was available for purchase. Gertrude Stevenson, in an article she wrote for the Boston Post in 1913, had this to say: 'A few years ago she discarded her carriage and handsome pair [of horses] for the finest limousine that money could buy.' Thus it was perhaps about 1910 that she decided to build a driveway and/or garage on the lot behind the Swift property. Ms. Stevenson provides us with details about this matter not found elsewhere:
 
It was a strange circumstance that led this woman to choose a home adjoining that of the man who later became the chief prosecuting officer for the commonwealth, Atty James M. Swift. [He was attorney general of Massachusetts from 1902 until 1914.] The Swifts owned a lot of land at the rear of their own residence [meaning a normal size lot behind their house, not a whole bunch of land], joining the Borden property at right angles and facing Belmont street, which Miss Borden bought some years later.
 
The deed of this purchase discloses a clause restricting Miss Borden from ever erecting a structure of any description upon it. With the acquisition of a new automobile, however, Miss Borden made preparations to build a garage on the land she had purchased from the family of the attorney-general in spite of the clause forbidding any such construction. Much to her annoyance the Swifts held her to the letter of her deed; at least, that is the inference generally drawn, as she finally built her garage on the other side of her house on a lot which she had purchased some time before. Originally there was a house on this lot, but Miss Borden had had it removed and the land converted into very attractive grounds.
 
The original plan for the garage called for an entrance facing Belmont street and a driveway across the land which the Swifts had formerly owned. The restriction in the deed, however, prevented the construction of even as much as a concrete path. Therefore, Miss Borden was obliged to keep that portion of her property devoted to grass lot and have the entrance to her garage from French street and across the lot which she preferred to keep as a smooth lawn.
 
Her vexation at being held to the conditions of the deed was immediately expressed in a 10-foot lattice fence separating her house from the Swift home. She also had built a low iron fence separating the two lawns and defining her property line. She declared that the high fence had been built between the houses to save herself from the annoyance of the curious scrutiny of tradespeople delivering goods at the adjoining houses.
 
When she died, the lot was sold by her long-term business agent, Charles C. Cook, to James' younger brother, John T. Swift, at that time treasurer of the Citizens Savings Bank and president of the Swansea Dye Works."....

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/NewResearch/Swift.htm
LizzieAndrewBorden.com/ New Research/Duniho

 


63. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by gramma on Feb-20th-04 at 1:15 AM
In response to Message #62.

Thanks Kat! Now I know where I heard that name before. It was the title "All Things Swift" that got my attention. John Cameron worked for Anthony and Swift as did Nora and Maggie.

Gramma


64. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Raymond on Feb-20th-04 at 1:48 PM
In response to Message #61.

The black blob of a shadow reminds me of the many snapshots from decades ago. You can estimate the time of day from the angle. Assuming June, it would be about 7pm. Am I close?


65. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-20th-04 at 2:40 PM
In response to Message #61.

She is a very pretty woman.  What is her background?  I hope I got the dates about right.



(Message last edited Feb-20th-04  2:42 PM.)


66. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-20th-04 at 2:50 PM
In response to Message #65.

So you are Miss Taylor?

Rebello, 289:
"Gertrude M. (Russell) Callow was employed as a live-in domestic from 1912-1913. Miss Russell was born in New Bedford, Massachusetts, March 1889. She was the daughter of Addison E. and Minerva F. (Hubbard) Russell and sister of William E. and Frederick C. Russell. Miss Russell was first employed as an operator at the Kerr Thread Mill, a domestic for Miss Borden and a clerk. She later married John W. Callow (1883-1967), who was first employed as a weaver, gardener and a sexton at the Church of Ascension in Fall River. The Callows resided in Fall River. Mrs. Russell died in Fall River, February 25, 1968, at the Home for the Aged (now Adams House, a rest home). She was survived by a daughter, Mrs. Harold C. (Virginia) Taylor; and a son, Mr. John R. Callow. Mr. and Mrs. Callow are buried at Oak Grove Cemetery in Fall River."

Sources:
"Deaths: Minerva F. Russell," Fall River Herald News, January 12, 1929: 10.
"Obituaries: John W. Callow," Fall River Herald News, June 3, 1967: 2.
"Obituaries: Gertrude M. Callow," Fall River Herald News, February 26, 1968: 2.
"Fall River City Directories, 1899-1970
Federal Census: 1900, 1910, 1920
Oak Grove Cemetery Records"


67. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-20th-04 at 2:52 PM
In response to Message #66.

It was the title of this topic which inspired me to go looking....


68. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by njwolfe on Feb-20th-04 at 7:13 PM
In response to Message #67.

Kat, you are awesome. Nancy Drew move over....


69. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Gramma on Feb-20th-04 at 9:44 PM
In response to Message #65.

Yes, Kat.
The dates are right. She was called Trudy by Miss Borden.
When they were in the lobby of the Washington, DC Hotel, there was a little girl,about six or eight,named Virginia, who fascinated Lizzie. She thought she was adorable, turned to my grandmother and said, "Trudy, if you ever have a daughter you should name her Virginia. Thus my mother   was named, indirectly, by Lizzie.

Gramma


70. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-21st-04 at 2:37 AM
In response to Message #69.

Miss Borden sounds like a celebrity.
That she could name a child on a whim.
Do you think she thought she was one, in a way?


71. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Gramma on Feb-21st-04 at 2:23 PM
In response to Message #70.

No, Kat, I don't think she wanted anymore notariety by that time. She was just woman talking to her domestic. She often talked to them like family. I think it was her way of saying she hoped Trudy had a child as delightful as that one.

Gramma


72. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by njwolfe on Feb-21st-04 at 6:47 PM
In response to Message #71.

I wonder if Lizzie wished she had children and husband and family,
of course she did, only natural. 


73. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Gramma on Feb-21st-04 at 8:00 PM
In response to Message #72.

Lizzie loved children! When she had her last operation there was a woman who had given birth. It is my understanding Lizzie asked if she could hold the baby. I think she substituted her love of animals to fill that void a little.

Gramma


74. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-22nd-04 at 12:18 AM
In response to Message #73.

Casebook, 254:
Footnote*
" * The information about Lizzie's hospital stay comes from a former resident of  Fall River who was also in the  hospital at this time.  She had just given birth to her second daughter and Lizzie asked to see the infant.  As Lizzie held her, nurses told the mother later, she remarked that this was the first baby she had ever held.  (Source:  Letter to editors from Ruth waring, dated December 1, 1979, recounting the Fall River woman's story.)"


Lil' Abby was born, 1884, when Lizzie was 24, and she never held her stepmother's 1/2 niece?  In 1887, George O. Whithead was born, and Lizzie was 27.  You'd think the new little Whitehead family would be a magnet for a child-loving Lizzie?  Maybe she only loved children not step-related to her.


75. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by gramma on Feb-22nd-04 at 8:58 AM
In response to Message #74.

The impression I have always had is that the relationship between the Whiteheads and the Bordens was cordial but not close.

Gramma


76. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by haulover on Feb-22nd-04 at 8:11 PM
In response to Message #74.

this may show the distancing -- the lack of friendliness or intimacy between lizzie and her relatives?

kind of pitiful if it took her that long to hold a baby.  i remember picking up and playing with my little cousins when i was 9 or 10 -- and my sister and i fighting over them.


77. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-22nd-04 at 11:16 PM
In response to Message #75.

Sarah  Whitehead at the Inquest.
She was close to her 1/2 sister Abby.
Charity begins at home, they say.
A struggling young family, and "those girls" caused problems, to the point of the power struggle  over property when Andrew decided to help them thru Abby

Sarah Whitehead, p.156
" I never went there, very seldom, on account of those girls."
"I never thought they liked me."
"I always thought they felt above me."

These are statements under oath by someone grieving, as well.
The girls seem to have been snobish to the Whiteheads.
Where is the charitable heart?
I t was not apparent for the step-family who mattered to Abby.
Lizzie can be charitable to strangers before she will open her heart to relatives.


78. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by lydiapinkham on Feb-23rd-04 at 1:35 AM
In response to Message #77.


I think that may be exactly right.  Some people are better at abstract love.  In Bleak House, Dickens has Mrs. Jellyby, who is so wrapped up in the woes of orphans overseas when her own numerous children go neglected and unnoticed.  Maybe Lizzie loved better from a distance. Especially when the children were not descended from those she considered enemies.  It is wrong to extend grievances to innocent children, but people who maintain feuds will do just that

--Lyddie


79. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by audrey on Feb-23rd-04 at 2:42 AM
In response to Message #78.

Abby loved Sarah much the same way Emma loved Lizzie.  She thought of her more as a daughter.

Wasn't it Mrs Whitehead who (allegedly) told the story of Lizzie decapitating Abby's cat? 

Let's assume that is a true story....

Would you fork your kid over to someone (you believed) who killed pets?

Not only that--- But Emma and Lizzie were both less than kind over the property transfer.  I can't imagine any mother calmly handing her baby over to someone who had that hard of feelings towards them.  I also can not imagine Lizzie bopping over to the Whitehead's house... The family did not make a big deal out of holidays so there were probably no big get togethers ever....  Did Mrs W have servants?  She probably didn't have the time to be over at Abby's a lot if she took care of her own house, meals and children...

I would be suprised to know Lizzie was even around those babies...


(Message last edited Feb-23rd-04  2:46 AM.)


80. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-23rd-04 at 2:48 PM
In response to Message #79.

"Lil Abby Whitehead was born in 1884.
Lizzie joined the Central Congregational Church in 1885.
The brou-ha-ha about the Fourth Street house was around the time little George was born, March to May 1887.
Lizzie was not doing much during this period that has been documented.
"Lil Abby Whitehead Potter was the one who passed on the story of Lizzie and the cat.  Many, many years later.  You know how those "many, many years later" stories become all melodramatic, like Billie Borden or David Anthony.

We don't know if Abby treated her 1/2 sister like a daughter and we don't know that Sarah Whitehead wouldn't hand her daughter over to Lizzie in the 3 years before Jane Gray wanted to sell her share of the house.

[How do we know if either the Borden family or the Whitehead family did not make a big deal out of Christmas or holidays?]

(Message last edited Feb-23rd-04  2:50 PM.)


81. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Susan on Feb-23rd-04 at 9:26 PM
In response to Message #80.

I wonder if Lil Abby's story coincides with the story that that druggist told about Lizzie coming in for chloroform for a cat?  I don't recall what the source was, but, it was posted on the forum before.  Apparently Lizzie came in and was quite saucy in her tone which the druggist matched and I think she never shopped there again. 


82. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by lydiapinkham on Feb-24th-04 at 12:35 AM
In response to Message #80.


Re: Borden holidays

Didn't we recently talk about the Borden Christmases on another thread?  As I recall, someone noted that Lizzie served up turkey at charity dinner during at least one holiday.  That might give us a clue that she didn't care about missing her own. (Maybe they had mutton on the menu.)

--Lyddie


83. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-24th-04 at 2:19 AM
In response to Message #82.

I would like something a bit more specific.
If the thread can be found or the source cited?
I was under the impression that that was an ongoing question around here.
I do recall that Andrew married Sarah On Christmas Day eve and some thought that romantic.


84. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Raymond on Feb-24th-04 at 5:13 PM
In response to Message #80.

The most important story from [Joseph] Robert Sullivan is that Little Abby was supposed to be sent to that house for baby-sitting that Thursday, but it was cancelled. Because of some important visitor? Other than JV Morse?
THAT is what I read into this. Was this done Wednesday afternoon?
...
It could be a clue, since the presence of JVM was not expected for Thursday.


(Message last edited Feb-26th-04  4:18 PM.)


85. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-24th-04 at 6:42 PM
In response to Message #84.

Who is Joseph Sullivan and what house was lil' Abby supposed to babysit at?


86. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by lydiapinkham on Feb-25th-04 at 12:03 AM
In response to Message #85.

Is this the story about the Whiteheads being ill and planning to send Abby Jr. over?  I seem to remember something like that in an old posting that suggested this might account for the sick note.  (Repressed by the Whiteheads out of spite??)  Does this ring a bell for anybody?

I've checked Rebello for turkey dinner, and came up empty.  Now I'm wondering if it was in 40 Whacks.  I'll search past listings and get back if I find it.
--Lyddie

(Message last edited Feb-25th-04  12:05 AM.)


87. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by lydiapinkham on Feb-25th-04 at 1:23 AM
In response to Message #86.

I've found it, Kat!  The anonymous reporter who professes to be an old friend from the fruit and flower days gives an account of a visit to Lizzie in Taunton Jail, where Lizzie's eyes well up with ttears, etc.  She finds her unchanged from the days when Lizzie took delight in seeing the healthy appetites of "young newsboys and poor children" at their annual holiday turkey dinners.  It's in Resources:  New York Recorder--September 20, 1892.

--Lyddie


88. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-25th-04 at 2:35 AM
In response to Message #87.

Yes, that's right.  Good.  Isn't that M'Guirk?

I've looked that up:
Rebello, 206:
"Mrs. Kate (Swan) McGuirk, reporter for the New York World. Mrs. McGuirk was originally from Fall River and knew Lizzie Borden well."

Still there is no source for the Whiteheads and Bordens not celebrating holidays.
Some people who serve charitably also enjoy family time before or after.
There was more posted I questioned but I don't remember what it was now.


89. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by lydiapinkham on Feb-25th-04 at 1:17 PM
In response to Message #88.

Is the New York Recorder the same as the New York World?  Is so, I think M'Guirk is our gal.  I went back to see what else you questioned, but I can't find it.  Maybe it'll come back to you.  I agree, though, that the charity dinner is no proof that she had none of her own.  Plenty of people celebrate at home, AND make time for acts of kindness.  It could have provided an escape from an unpleasant scene, but that is sheer speculation.

--Lyddie


90. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Raymond on Feb-25th-04 at 6:14 PM
In response to Message #85.

My faulty recollection. It was ROBERT Sullivan who wrote that 1973 book on the case. He claimed "Lizzie did it", but could offer no other proof. Abby Borden Whitehead was supposed to stay with aunt Abby the day of the murders. At least that what was written 80 years later. Any contemporary notes?


91. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Gramma on Feb-25th-04 at 6:16 PM
In response to Message #88.

Rebello, 206:
"Mrs. Kate (Swan) McGuirk, reporter for the New York World. Mrs. McGuirk was originally from Fall River and knew Lizzie Borden well."

Kat,
This is really important to me. The babysitter I spoke of being hired by the Women's Auxiliary in Fall River was Clara Swan. Swan was her married name and she came from Vermont at the time, but this hints at possible former connections to Fall River through her deceased husband, perhaps. They didn't usually just cast about for such people then. There was usually a connection somewhere.

Gramma


92. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Raymond on Feb-25th-04 at 6:16 PM
In response to Message #88.

Wasn't that piece a "puff piece" to portray Lizzie sympathetically?
And why not from an old friend?
One important thing is that Andy's friends and business associates all supported Lizzie, as I remember.


93. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-25th-04 at 10:41 PM
In response to Message #91.

Lizzie Borden: A Case Book of Family and Crime in the 1890's, Joyce Williams, et.al., pg. 129,130.

"Lizzie was in jail for ten months, from the day of her arrest until the end of the trial.  Little evidence exists of her thoughts during this period.  Our only insight may come from an article that appeared in the New York Recorder on September 20, 1892, reporting on an interview between Lizzie Borden and the author, a Mrs. M'Guirk.  Edwin Porter, in The Fall River Tragedy, maintains that this news story was a 'magnificent fake'.  Others have taken the report at face value."
....
"I was anxious to see if this girl (Lizzie), with whom I was associated several years ago in the work of the Fall River Fruit and Flower Mission, had changed her character and become a monster since the days when she used to load up the plates of vigorous young newsboys and poor choldren at the annual turkey dinner provided during the holidays for them and take delight in their healthy appetites. 

I sought her in the Taunton Jail and found her unchanged, except that she showed traces of the great trial she has just been through.  Her face was thinner, her mouth had a patient look, as if she had been schooling herself to expect and to bear any treatment, however unpleasant, and her eyes were red from the long nights of weeping.  A dark shade now protects them from the glaring white light reflected from the walls of her cell."
_________

Yesterday In Old Fall River, Paul Hoffman, pg. 234:

"Mrs. McGuirk was the wife of former Fall River reporter Arthur J. McGuirk and a journalist in her own right who moved away from Fall River years before the murders.  She published an interview with Lizzie Borden in the New York Recorder on September 20, 1892.

The interview was supposedly given while Lizzie was in the Taunton jail.  According to author David Kent in Forty Whacks: New Evidence in the Life and Legend of Lizzie Borden (1992), Lizzie granted Mrs. McGuirk the interview because the two women had previously worked together in the Fall River Fruit and Flower Mission providing food for the poor on holidays, Mrs. McGuirk grew up in Fall River as a child."


--Mary Livermore claimed to have interviewed Lizzie.  Kent believes "that the McGuirk-Borden interview really took place."  Porter claimed the interview was a fake.
---------
David Kent, Forty Whacks, 68:
"It is safe to say that during those ten months, every reporter and artist assigned to the case clamored to interview the prisoner. All were refused save one, a Mrs. McGuirk, with whom Lizzie had served in charitable causes in Fall River. Her interview was published in the New York Recorder on September 20:

'I know I am innocent and I have made up my mind that, no matter what happens, I will try to bear it bravely and make the best of it.' "

-------------------

I have looked for McGuirk, or  "Swan" further in Rebello, in The Evening Standard, in the Rochester papers, in Knowlton Papers, In Hoffman and in Case Book and Kent.

They seem to be repeating each other.  There is no proof here that McGuirk conducted the Interview, or knew Lizzie from The Fruit and Flower Mission.
Mr. Rebello seems to have the only 'original' research and he is the source for the name "SWAN".  Other than that, I have nothing further, sorry.




(Message last edited Feb-25th-04  10:55 PM.)


94. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Gramma on Feb-26th-04 at 11:15 AM
In response to Message #93.

Thanks so much, Kat, for that info. I will try to trace it down from there.
As I grow older it never ceases to amaze me that more connections pop up every day to the Bordens and the other families close to the story. When I was growing up I had no knowledge that these people were all connected, but now it just boggles my mind to think my babysitter, whom I adored right thru my teen years to her dying bedside, was perhaps privy to the story. She is the one who always walked me to th FRHS and told me to remember that building with the weathervane on top.
The Cooks were just friends of Gramma and Grampa who had a piece of land  once owned by Spencer Borden. They built a little five room bungelow there and my Uncle purchased it from them. Then my parents purchased it from my uncle. It is the house I lived in from four years old until I left home at 19. My first school was Spencer Borden School from K-2. It then became too crowded and I was transferred to Highland School for 3-6.

Gramma


95. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-26th-04 at 1:00 PM
In response to Message #94.

Yes, I'm getting amazed at the connections myself.
But after living in the Central Florida community for a length of time, almost 40 years, I can see here, as , well, patterns of people who know each other.
I think it might have a bit to do with a smaller town within a big town, and the longer one lives in a community, the more patterns which can happen and the more one may notice.
I'm not saying that's all it is, but saying that can contribute.


96. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Raymond on Feb-26th-04 at 4:21 PM
In response to Message #95.

These patterns were almost a cliche in the Dickens novels. But it is true then or now for small towns (like rural Penna or NY where there is not much immigration, and many people live in the home their granparents owned).
Also, the same types travel in the same circles. Think of parish activities in a small one or two church town.


97. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Gramma on Feb-27th-04 at 12:34 PM
In response to Message #94.

Hi Kat,
Found what I believe to be "Aunt Clara Swan" in the 1880 census for Bennington, VT.
She died in her 80's in Fall River around 1958/9 or so. That makes this 4 year old a good candidate. I knew she was from Bennington, VT and her maiden name was Hyde. Both parents born in NY, but Mama's dad was born in MA!

Douglas W. HYDE  Self  M  Male  W  55  NY  Agent-Walter A. Wood Mowing Machine  ---  ---
Matilda HYDE  Wife  M  Female  W  41  NY  Keep House  MASS  NY
Gertrude HYDE  Dau  S  Female  W  41  NY    NY  NY
Florence M. HYDE  Dau  S  Female  W  15  VERMONT    NY  NY
Caroline HYDE  Dau  S  Female  W  12  VERMONT    NY  NY
Franklin H. HYDE  Son  S  Male  W  10  VERMONT    NY  NY
Douglas W. HYDE  Son  S  Male  W  8  VERMONT    NY  NY
Clara E. HYDE  Dau  S  Female  W  4  VERMONT    NY  NY
Legrand HYDE  Son  S  Male  W  2  VERMONT    NY  NY

Gramma


98. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-27th-04 at 2:29 PM
In response to Message #97.

That looks pretty good.  Good for you!

What about "Kate (Swan) McGuirk"?  or a Katherine (Swan) McGuirk?
How does she fit in with your nanny, Clara Swan?


99. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Gramma on Feb-27th-04 at 10:29 PM
In response to Message #98.

Kat,
To find the Swan connection I must first find Clara's husband's name. I have two waays to do that. Find her Obit in the Herald News or find her marriage record in Vermont. It is my understanding she did not come to Fall River until she was a widow. I could be wrong on that, though.

Gramma


100. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Gramma on Feb-27th-04 at 10:44 PM
In response to Message #99.


Now here is a good candidate for Kate!

1880 United States Census

Minor SWAN  Self  M  Male  W  68  CONN  Works In Cotton Mill  CONN  CONN
Lamire SWAN  Wife  M  Female  W  64  MASS  Keeping House  MASS  MASS
Isaac SWAN  Son  W  Male  W  45  MASS  Book Binder  CONN  MASS
Katie SWAN  GDau  S  Female  W  14  MASS  At School  MASS  MASS

Source Information:
  Census Place Fall River, Bristol, Massachusetts
Family History Library Film  1254524
NA Film Number  T9-0524
Page Number  141A     

Put that together with this Arthur J McGuirk and you could have a match!
Hugh MCGUIRK  Self  M  Male  W  46  IRE  Gardener  IRE  IRE
Mary MCGUIRK  Wife  M  Female  W  49  IRE  Keeping House  IRE  IRE
Arthur J. MCGUIRK  Son  S  Male  W  19  MA  Newspaper Reporter  IRE  IRE
Rose A. MCGUIRK  Dau  S  Female  W  12  MA  At School  IRE  IRE

Source Information:
  Census Place Providence, Providence, Rhode Island
Family History Library Film  1255212
NA Film Number  T9-1212
Page Number  66B      

Gramma


101. "Re: Lizzie and the Federal census"
Posted by Kat on Feb-27th-04 at 11:37 PM
In response to Message #100.

That was Good!  You are doing well!.  Thanks!