1. "92 Second Street Is For Sale"
Posted by Bill Pavao on Nov-15th-03 at 7:55 PM

Hello,

I wanted to let everyone know that the Lizzie Borden Bed & Breakfast/Museum is for sale. It is official. The entire property, including the Leary Press building is to be sold. To be honest, this is a sad time for those of us who have been connected with the house for so long. The sale was listed in the newspaper as of today. I do not have any more information at this time. I will keep everyone posted as I learn more.

Thanks everyone!!!!!!!

Bill Pavao


(Message last edited Nov-15th-03  8:06 PM.)

OHBOYOHBOYOHBOY!
Should we take up a collection and buy it and you can be director of operations?
We're on our way!...Letme get my coat...

(Message last edited Nov-15th-03  8:01 PM.)

Oh wow!  First the LBQ goes and now this.

I just hope who ever buys it keeps it as the Borden house.  Maybe they'll get rid of the print shop attached to it.  We can hope. And PRAY.

(Message last edited Nov-15th-03  8:05 PM.)

Holy Moly!! I just telephoned the inn, because I still have a reservation for the Morse bedroom which I was hoping to be able to use before the new year.  I certainly hope they will not close down before then!! BTW I got a recorded message that said they were accepting reservations.

I just checked the Fall River Herald News real estate section & there it was. The whole kit & kaboodle for only $699,920! They list a cool link to the real estate listing: www.lizziebordenforsale.com
The link has a little flash-movie of the different rooms. Who would have ever thought the House would go up for sale? Hey, lets all gyp in & scoop it up. It could be like a time-share thing for us lizzie fanatics. What the hell. You only live once. I'm good for about $200.00. I might as well spend it now. I've yet to see a Brink's truck following a funeral.

Thanks Mark.  Now we have to sit and wait and see what happens.

I just noticed my last post was number 1892 for me.  This one is 1893. Kinda scary for it to be on the house itself.

Well, I hope whoever  buys it keeps it open as a B & B/museum.  Since I became interested in Lizzie, I have been hoping to someday visit Fall River and see the 2nd St. house, the FRHS and drive by Maplecroft, as well see other attractions unrelated to the case.

This is really weird, coming so close to the end of the LBQ.
Harry, your post numbers are weird.  You're scaring me.
Let's get a grip.  (Not easy to do - I am shocked.) 
So the Leary Press is for sale, too???  That is not good news at all.  That makes me think that someone can tear the whole thing down.  Who's gonna want to run the press AND the house?  That press is OLD.  It used to be a Kewpie Doll factory, and that wasn't its first use. 
Thanks for the link to the listing, gt-master.  $700,000 sounds about par for a real historical place in that area.  I think it's gonna end up like Maplecroft, tho, where nobody will be able to afford it.  I don't think the city will save it.  They're probably hoping it'll be finally gone and that thorn in their side finally over with.
Does anybody know anything about a national historical grant?  That might be the way to go.
Contacting some real Lizzie lovers might help, too.  Maybe one of them is rich enough - or hooked enough - to be interested. 
God, if someone paid that for it, they'd never get their money back out of it.  Unless they had some really good ideas for doing a little more with it ... 

what shocking news, i hope Bordenites can put pressure on
to keep the house, it would be so sad if it were torn down.
As Harry says, lets Pray it falls in the right hands!

Are there any large jackpot lottos anytime soon? I'm glad I got to tour the place this summer. I am surprised it's not already a historical site. I do hope whoever buys it tears down the print shop and spruces up the yard or at least constructs a more complementary attachment. 

Thats sad news, what happened?  I can only hope and pray that the house does fall into the hands of a caring Bordenite who will continue the B&B business.  To think that I may never get to see it or stay there is just too horrible to contemplate. 

please bear with me friends, just tried to scan a pix of Borden
house I took 1992. The Leary Press is really an eyesore, and the
store fronts next to it look strange with that big house behind it,
unless the stores go into the house they must be very small stores.
If this doesn't work I'll resize it.

I'm hopeful that things may even get better.  The house itself, over 158 years old and being the Borden house, are it's two greatest assets. It's even being advertised that way.

The same problems the Borden's faced, meaning the way the rooms are laid out, still exist and discourage it's use as a living quarters at least for a family.  Not having seen the interior of the print shop I don't know to what other use it could be put to.  I understand it wraps around the house into where the back yard used to be. 

That's a lot of money to pay for a house and small factory and even more so if there are empty textile mills still available.

So I'm still hopeful about it staying as a B&B.  Now let's tear down the print shop and plant..let's see...maybe some pear trees. 

Harry, I agree that the print shop needs to go. About the only thing I could see using it for is housing the gift shop.

Like I said, I hope it stays open as a B&B.

Hi Robert harry!

I read your comments. You mentioned having a reservation that you wanted to use before the new year. Do you mean that you have a gift certificate? If so I would recommend that you use the gift certificate as soon as you can. The only reason I say this is because the future of the B & B is up in the air. The house may not sell right away...then again, it might. I would just rather see you get to stay at the house and get the full use of the gift certificate. You deserve it!!!!

Bill



(Message last edited Nov-16th-03  10:14 PM.)

Hope you get to use that gift certificate, Robert Harry!  I guess if anybody hasn't seen it and wants to, now is the time to GO.  At least for the tour.  Geez, to study the case so hard and, who knows?, maybe have the house closed for tours, would devastate me. 

Thanks for the picture you posted, NJ.  That little section does look weird.  It's truly a wonder the Borden house wasn't torn down long ago.

I always have lamented the fact that the Southard Miller/Dr. Bowen place was torn down.  And Mrs. Churchill's.  It would be so NEAT to see those houses along with the Borden's today.  The Miller house must have been more than a 'duplex' - there was a woman living in her own part of the house.  Unless Dr. and Phoebe Bowen lived in the one half with Phoebe's father and fam.  Whenever I read of the Bowen/Miller house, it sounds like each lived in half of the house.  Maybe not so.  But that's another thread ...

I dunno, Harry.  People lived in it for years after the Bordens did.  Myself, I'd feel it inliveable.  The thing is like a MAZE.  I'd never get used to it.  I'd constantly be picking the wrong door, like a loser on Let's Make a Deal.  I guess it depends  - - on if you're home much or not!    I'd be too scared to live there anyway.  And also, you'd have to be the type that didn't mind people knocking and asking questions, etc.  

Well, I guess we can only wait and see what happens.  I would think that nobody's gonna pay that and then tear it down.  I would think if that happened, the current owners would be the ones to do it if they can't sell it at a decent price.  And hopefully they respect its history too much to do that. 

Okay - we've decided:  The Leary Press goes.  That was easy. Yes, pear trees again.  And the bahn.  Ah, let's go all the way and splurge for fake barf too.

Now look you guys, I'm all for historical accuracy but IMO fake barf in the back yard is going a tad bit far!!!

Stef had told me a month ago that a new Court House was going to be built across the street.  No one has mentioned that.  I was waiting to read that here from someone....

Oh, my God!  Thanks, Bill, for this news, upsetting as it is.

Yes Bill, thanks for letting us know.  It's got to be harder on you than any one of us here.

I just wonder what Andrew J Borden would say about this long-standing house and business? Andy knew his construction: how many 165 year old houses still stand?

Well...

Harry, thanks for the kind words again. You are a true gentleman. The sale of the house is definitely a loss. Many people dedicated a tremendous amount of time and energy to making the house successful. I pray that the new owners will treasure it as much as I have.


Well....I wanted to let everyone know that I have been working diligently today to get some information regarding the existence of any protection for the house as an historical site. My deepest concern is that someone could purchase the property solely for the land and have the house demolished. So....I have been trying to get some answers on short notice.

1. According to the Massachusetts Historical Commission, the house would need to be protected at the local level. The person I spoke with will check to see just who makes decisions regarding state purchases of historically significant buildings/sites. I am waiting for a return call.

2. According to the Fall River Planning Commission, the house is not protected. There is NO protection for historical buildings in Fall River. Also, even though the house is listed on the National Register, it can still be demolished. However, the owner would need to wait six months unless he/she gains approval from the city council. If it comes to that point, more than likely an organization would need to be formed to protect the house [but only if it comes to the point that the house is in danger of demolition]. Also, the state has pulled back on the funding for the construction of the new courthouse where the bus terminal is now. This is not to say that the courthouse will never be constructed, just that the funding is not there at this time.

3. According to the Fall River Mayor's office, they were not aware that the house was for sale. I mentioned that the city may want to consider purchasing the property. I will be getting a return call.

As of yet, I do not see any need for anyone to be overly concerned or anxious about this now. Let's see what happens. The house may not sell anytime in the near future. We just do not know....

If I need back-up, I'll begin enlisting names here!!!

I will keep everyone posted as I learn more.

Bill

(Message last edited Nov-17th-03  5:27 PM.)

Thank You Bill P for keeping us updated

Yes Thanks so much for the information!

I can't believe this!  This is the worst news!  I hope they will still take a reservation.  I'm going to have to get there in the next couple of weeks and get my video camera out.  If you need a signature or help in anyway to get the state to keep it from being demolished let me know. 

Hi Everyone!

Just an update....no one from the Massachusetts Historical Commission or the Fall River Mayor's Office has gotten back to me yet. I will touch base with them both after the Thanksgiving weekend if I do not hear from them. I am still keeping my fingers crossed.

Have a great weekend everyone and a super Thanksgiving!!!

Bill

I wish your emotions on this property are not smashed.
But in my town and others,  many fine old mansions along the Main St. were torn down. Often they become rooming houses, and a fire destroys the building so its cheaper to raze the building than repair.
How many homes in your town from over 200 years ago?

Does anyone know the reason(s) 92 Second St. is being offered for sale? Or did I miss something in a previous message on this topic? I gather everything is for sale, that is the land, buildings, and B & B business/museum.

I suspect of far greater concern than whether revervations will still be honored is the fact that this house could be destroyed.  Fall River has never come to terms with Lizzie and I would bet that there is an element that would just as soon see all references to her eliminated. And from my experience, that element would originate with the historical society itself.  If this is the case, the house would be a good place to start.  The irony is that Lizzie IS Fall River's history.  She is its greatest historical asset.  If the community cannot see that reality by this point in time, then that house could very well be toast.  The stupidity and the tragedy of that possibility is beyond measure. 

I know that the city of Buffalo allowed the Milburn House, the site of President McdKinley's recuperation and then unfortunate death following the assassination attempt at the nearby Pan American Exposition to be demolished in the mid-1960's.  Buffalo did not see this as an historic site.  Rather, the community saw it as a place of shame and embarassment.  The city also gave the go ahead to demolish the Wilcox Mansion several years after that.  This is the house where Theodore Roosevelt spent several days, took the oath of office and held his first cabinet meeting.  Only a last minute battle by preservationists saved that house.  Today, it is a national monument and historical site.

This news about 92 Second Street could be the preliminary to a catastrophe.  If a movement is needed to fight to save Lizzie's house, an important piece of American history, I would sign on in a minute.

Hello All;
This is my first time posting on this board.  My family was contacted recently by a person doing a thesis on the murder of Bertha Manchester....my great, great aunt.  Some of you may know of her story and the link to the Bordens.  I'm also, as the Manhesters were, related to Lizzy. 

This is meant as a very respectful but curious question:  What is the interest in Lizzy.  Being related, and my Grandmother Edith Coolidge Hart is quoted in many books on Lizzy, I always wondered, since childhood, what the intrigue was.  ....epsecially these days with the all too numerous and infamous murders out there.

Again, in all sincerity, this is a very respectful question.

Kindest Regards,
Roger Wellington Hart

Welcome, Roger.  Do you live in the Fall River area?

Your grandmother's name does sound familiar.  I'm assuming the Manchesters/Harts were distant cousins to the Bordens?

The answer to your question, I think, is human nature.  People love a mystery.  Altho Lizzie's guilt seems to be a given, there are still endless questions as to why, how, did she act alone, etc.  There also remains a tiny seed of doubt that she might have been innocent.  No one else was ever arrested for the murders. 

Part of my own interest is a fascination for the late Victorian era.  These events happened back in a time when the world was changing at a very rapid pace, heading toward modern times.  For me it's a link between our world & the pre-industrial, pre-technological past.

This case was the first to be broadcast worldwide, and it shocked the world in 1892 that a well-bred woman would be charged with brutally killing her parents. 

Also interesting is the fact the murders took place just prior to modern crime detection techniques coming into play.  There was no fingerprinting, nor blood typing, etc to help the police.  Therefore, Lizzie was arrested & tried on purely circumstantial evidence.

Anyway, I'm sure there are more reasons than I've listed.  I hope this gives you a bit more understanding as to why people find this case interesting.

>Welcome, Roger.  Do you live in the Fall River area?
>
>Your grandmother's name does sound familiar.  I'm assuming
>the Manchesters/Harts were distant cousins to the Bordens?

>
>The answer to your question, I think, is human nature. 
>People love a mystery.  Altho Lizzie's guilt seems to be a
>given, there are still endless questions as to why, how, did
>she act alone, etc.  There also remains a tiny seed of doubt
>that she might have been innocent.  No one else was ever
>arrested for the murders. 

>
>Part of my own interest is a fascination for the late
>Victorian era.  These events happened back in a time when
>the world was changing at a very rapid pace, heading toward
>modern times.  For me it's a link between our world &
>the pre-industrial, pre-technological past.

>
>This case was the first to be broadcast worldwide, and it
>shocked the world in 1892 that a well-bred woman would be
>charged with brutally killing her parents. 

>
>Also interesting is the fact the murders took place just
>prior to modern crime detection techniques coming into play.
> There was no fingerprinting, nor blood typing, etc to help
>the police.  Therefore, Lizzie was arrested & tried on
>purely circumstantial evidence.

>
>Anyway, I'm sure there are more reasons than I've listed.  I
>hope this gives you a bit more understanding as to why
>people find this case interesting.

Thank you kindly for your reply and taking my question for the spirit with which is was intended-  sometimes e-communication can be taken the wrong way.

To answer your question-  the relation was on my father's mother's side; she being Edith Coolidge Hart.  She, and my father, were born in Fall River.  Edith's aunt was Bertha Manchester...my great, great Aunt.  The Manchester Farm still stands in Fall River.  My grandmother was a cousin of Lizzy and new her quite well.....edith was born in 1887.  Edith's summer home was in Somerset; I was told as a child, not far from one that Lizzy resided in.  My father, born in Fall River in 1916, remembered Lizzy quite well but was kept a distance from her.  He remembered her Packard auto.

Our family does have conjecture as to why Lizzy may have done it.  I don't know if it is appropriate to discuss here...it is only conjecture.  As well, I was raised in a conservative Yankee household where such things weren't discussed with comfort.

Kindest Regards,
Roger

Thank you for joining us.  I wasn't aware the Manchester house was still standing.

Actually, this board runs on a lot of conjecture.  Part of the reason this case became such a mystery is how little is known of the truth & hard facts.  The Victorian era itself was a time when a lot of things were not discussed due to propriety.  I imagine this was especially the case within families & their "skeletons".

We would be interested in hearing your point of view if you wish to share it.

>Thank you for joining us.  I wasn't aware the Manchester
>house was still standing.

>
>Actually, this board runs on a lot of conjecture.  Part of
>the reason this case became such a mystery is how little is
>known of the truth & hard facts.  The Victorian era
>itself was a time when a lot of things were not discussed
>due to propriety.  I imagine this was especially the case
>within families & their "skeletons".

>
>We would be interested in hearing your point of view if you
>wish to share it.

My grandmother was once asked point blank in a book if Lizzie was a Lesbian.  She replied "I don't know, back then we kept our bodies clothed as well as our minds".  Well, in the "family", it was pretty know of her orientation.  It was also "kept quiet" with a wink and a nod, that she was molested by Andrew.  I never really gave it much thought one way or another until many years late, as an adult, I heard a story on NPR regarding "gay...nature vs. nuture".  Well, this "research" stated that "many" lesbians have a history of being molested by a male family memeber at an early age.

It was discussed quite openly in the family that Andrew was an S.O.B.  One of my grandfathers of that era (with the last name Hart), sat with Andrew on the board of a bank or of banks plural.  My grandfather ended up being president of one S&L up there.

Regards,
Roger

Thank you for sharing that, Roger.  I think this may be the 1st time I have heard that particular viewpoint come from a family source.  I remember that quote (particularly because of its eloquence) from Joyce Williams' "Lizzie Borden: A Case Book of Family and Crime in the 1890s".

One of the major issues that is discussed here (there are more posters on this board during the evenings if you would like to have further discussions with others) is Lizzie as a person; getting inside of her psyche as a clue to her motivations, etc.

Thanks, Bill, for the advice and kind words.  As you must know, I like the other posters here greatly appreciate your input.  I am sorry for the long delay in acknowledging your post, but work got crazy and I haven't had too much time lately for Lizzie.  For everyone's information: My fiancee and I are still trying to free our schedule to go to the B&B.  I telephoned the number and a very kind lady who handles reservations, etc. did not refer at all to the impending sale.  In fact, she acted as though the B&B would be there forever!  I mentioned it, but she said nothing in reply about it.  SHe did urge, though, that we use the certificate soon since she was getting booked up for the Saturdays of December.  I'll let you all know what happens.

Thanks, too, Augusta.  I truly hope to go before they close.

Hi Roger,
How nice to hear from someone related to Lizzie.  Thank you for coming aboard!!  You asked why we are so interested in the Borden case:  Speaking for myself, the number one reason is that the crime remains "unsolved."  And, if Lizzie did do it, as I think she did, it is truly a "perfect" crime.  That alone is interesting.  But, what makes it even more fascinating is that we actually have photographs of the family and the crime scene, and, of course, the very house in which the murders took place.  These make the Borden family seem "so close yet so far away." 
"Close" because we can see their faces, and we know certain things about their daily lives and customs.  "Far away" because we can't see beyond the photos--and there are such tempting and alluring hints and clues but no real proof.  Plus, of course, I echo that the Victorian era is such an interesting time.  Anything you might share would be appreciated.  However, we certainly respect your family sensitivity.  We know that this horrible crime happened to real people who certainly did not deserve to be brutally murdered no matter what they may have done.  As a clinical social worker, I am intrigued by exploring Lizzie's personality traits and studying her possible motives.  The alleged abuse by her father would certainly be a big factor in such motives.

PS to Roger:  What, if anything do you know about the alleged "illegitimate" son of Andrew Borden, called "Billy Borden?" 

Thanks Roger, welcome, what a treat to have a family descendant on
this forum.  I am fascinated with this case for the same reasons
Robert Harry gave, interest in the Victorian Era etc. Mostly just
"how could a 32 yr. old lady kill her Dad?"  I can see the step-mother, but I just can't believe she could brutally kill her Dad. 
I will look forward to your input!  Nancie

Hello, Roger and welcome!  We love our Fall River contacts.  Thanks for joining in.

I have a booklet put out by the FR Historical Society which gives much, but not all, on the Genealogy of our Borden family.
I went looking for "Hart", "Coolidge", and "Manchester".
I found no HART but that doersn't mean anything other than you will need a more complete genealogy.

To get to Susannah Borden(714), who married Charles Coolidge, May, 1834, we first go to:
Richard Borden (1)
son John (5)

This is where our Bordens break away from your Borden who married a Coolidge.

John had sons Richard(95) & Joseph (97)

Richard went on to sire our Borden side and brother Joseph went on to sire the other side.  This is a huge gap.  Some authors don't even consider successive generations under Joseph as kin- tho they are...but very removed.

Heading toward Coolidge we have:
Joseph (97)
son William (448)
son Joseph (674)
son Joseph (688)
DAUGHTER- Susannah (714) born May 17, 1814.  Married Charles Coolidge, 1834.

----------

To get to Almira Manchester who married into Borden, we first go back to the brother Richard (95) (brother of Joseph)
son Thomas (103)
son Richard (114)

At this point our Borden and your Bordens split.
Richard (114) has Thomas (119) and Richard (120)
Manchester marries into Thomas side, Andrew is from Richard side.

Thomas (119)
son Col. Richard(133) [b. 1795]
BROTHER of Col. Richard is John (135)
John married an "Almira Manchester", June, 1826.  [He is considered 7th generation, whereas Andrew is considered 8th generation.]
......

Where Richard (114) splits, he has sons Thomas (119) and Richard(120).

Richard (120)
son Abraham Borden(208)
son Andrew Borden (218)
DAUGHTER Lizzie Borden(224), Emma Borden(222), Alice Borden(223)9th generation.

...........

Overview:

                                                            Richard1
                                                              John 5
                                      Richard95                         Joseph97
                                      Thomas103                        William448
                                      Richard114                         Joseph674
                                       Thomas119                        Joseph688
                                        John135 m. Almira             Susannah714 m.
                                                Manchester                      Charles Coolidge      

THE GENEALOGY OF THE BORDEN FAMILY
LIVING IN
FALL RIVER AND VICINITY, 1876
Atlantic Publishing, NY, 1877           

Hello, Roger! My primary interest in the Borden case is pondering the incomplete puzzle that it offers. For me not so much the "who" anymore (I am confident Lizzie was the culprit), but more the "how" and the "why." We know a lot about Lizzie and her immediate family but much is missing as well. Some of the information that could fill in gaps in the story is gone forever. Nevertheless, I think there is helpful and significant information still to be uncovered. For example, what you have shared with us today!

the interest is that "apparently" only one person could have done it -- yet no  physical evidence connects her.  also the "masculine" method by a female under outrageous circumstances.  the horrid crime of parricide has a lot to do with it.  the wicked stepmother and the miser.  and the verdict of innocent unless PROVEN GUILTY -- in spite of circumstantial evidence.  (the upholding of this principle i agree with and this is a classic example.)  add to it lizzie's ABSOLUTE SILENCE in the aftermath.  lizzie leaves us with the ultimate murder mystery.  as someone said (it might have been prosecutor knowlton) -- anyone would say that this crime could not have been committed but for the reality of the dead bodies.

 

Hi Roger, welcome to the forum.  Its fascinating to hear first hand info like that, what may have been known and discussed, even in hushed tones.  Thank you for sharing it with us.


Thanks Kat, for the genealogy of the family, I was curious how the Bordens and the Manchesters were related.  First I ever heard of it!  I was thinking, wow, what a coincedence, but, then in a small town like Fall River during that time period I guess alot of families were interconnected like that? 

I can't say for sure about Coolidge or Manchester:  only what I found with those names.
It might help to have more family names from Roger.

The One who married a Manchester, "John", has Richard (114) as grandfather, and Richard (114) is greatgrandfather to Andrew Borden.

(Message last edited Dec-4th-03  1:13 AM.)

(Message last edited Dec-4th-03  1:14 AM.)

Did Dubious Mike recall that Borden's had a farm in Somerset?
Because Porter said that and so did Roger.

In Knowlton Papers there is a Hart who was at the trial:
"HART, ABRAHAM GIFFORD 1831 - 1907: born in Fall River, Massachusetts, son of Jonathan and Susan (Gifford) Hart. Educated in the Fall River public school system, he was first employed as a machinist in the shop of Marvel and Davol, a position he retained for twenty years. He maintained an active interest in city and state politics and was treasurer of the Union Savings Bank, for which Andrew J. Borden also served as an officer. In 1853, he married Miss Lydia Pierce of Rehoboth, Massachusetts. Active in church affairs as well as several fraternal organizations, he was the first president of the Fall River Veteran Fireman's Association. He died in his native city. A witness at the preliminary and final trials, he gave testimony relative to his meeting with Andrew J. Borden on the morning of August 4,1892."

--is this a relation?

Also, in Casebook, pg. 266, Mrs. Edith Coolidge Hart is quoted, and described as:
"...a former newspaper reporter and long-time resident of Fall River."
She had correspondence with the author/editor, letters dated July 31, August 28, September 16, and December 16, 1979, and March 8, 1980, which are excerpted.

Also found Edward Sullivan again in Casebook, as being the authors source for Lizzie's will, pg. 258.

You might want to buy yourself the Casebook while supplies last.

Check out this list of past Masters of Mount Hope Lodge (Freemasons). 

In particular --

Josiah Blaisdell (Inquest Judge)

Abraham G. Hart

http://www.geocities.com/mounthopelodge/masters1.jpg

I've noticed a lot of those involved with the case belonged to lodges like freemasons, Knights of Pythias, etc etc.

(Message last edited Dec-4th-03  3:28 AM.)

THANKS FOR THE GREAT FAMILY TREE!!!  ...over my head I'm afraid.  Yes, the Abraham at the trial is my family.  The Hart's of that time were not related to the Bordens.  My father was William Coolidge Hart.  His father was Gardiner Tufts Hart.  He married Edith Coolidge (this is the same Coolidge as Calvin).  Edith's father was a Coolidge, her mother was a Manchester.  I was always told that the relation was from both Coolidge and Manchester, not Hart.  Back in the Victorian era, people associated and married within their "class"...at least they tended to.  That's why it is common that if you can trace your history to one family, you can tie it to others. 

Even though at that time the Hart's weren't related (yet), my Hart grandfather (Abraham) did sit on bank boards as I mentioned previously. 

Other Hart and Manchester names??  I have much of that info at home (I'm at the office now).  I'll post some of the info.

If you have an interest, my brother Stephen Manchester Hart has created a website to post some Manchester pictures....the homestead and such.  Also there is a 7th grade test that Bertha took.  These were all scanned from the originals which my family still owns.

The site is www.smhartimaging.com/Photos/manchester

...this address is case sensitive.

Kindest Regards,
Roger

>Check out this list of past Masters of Mount Hope Lodge
>(Freemasons). 

>
>In particular --
>
>Josiah Blaisdell (Inquest Judge)
>
>Abraham G. Hart
>
>http://www.geocities.com/mounthopelodge/masters1.jpg
>
>I've noticed a lot of those involved with the case belonged
>to lodges like freemasons, Knights of Pythias, etc etc.

This isn't unique to those involved with the trial. In that era, the majority of white Anglo-Saxon-Protestants with any means belonged to a fraternity...the Masons being the most popular.  It was almost "required" if you wanted a life in politics; look at how many of our U.S. presidents were Masons.

Regards,
Roger

Wow, what a treat!  Thanks, Roger.

Bertha's handwriting was gorgeous.

Officers Fleet & Medley both belonged to fraternities, & both became Marshal/Chief after Hilliard.  So, that political advantage does seem to make sense.

I've never seen any mention of Andrew Borden belonging to any lodges, & I suppose that didn't help his lack of popularity.

Hiram C. Harrington was also a Mason.  According to the Knowlton Glossary -- Hiram "served as high priest for the Royal Arch Chapter of the Masons."

Hi Roger -- I'm not too good with family trees.  But I'm guessing from what you've told us -- that your grandmother, Edith, was the daughter of Jennie Manchester (Bertha's sister) who was married to W.W. Coolidge. This ties in with the images on your brother's website, too.  Thank you for that link -- those pictures are wonderful!

>Hi Roger -- I'm not too good with family trees.  But I'm
>guessing from what you've told us -- that your grandmother,
>Edith, was the daughter of Jennie Manchester (Bertha's
>sister) who was married to W.W. Coolidge. This ties in with
>the images on your brother's website, too.  Thank you for
>that link -- those pictures are wonderful!

>

You are correct!  Bertha was Edith's aunt which makes her my great, great aunt.  Interestingly, for some reason, Jennie bailed the man out of jail that was later convicted of murdering Bertha.  We don't know why but we have a letter that Jennie wrote saying she anguished over the decision to do so.  We are not sure if the Manchester murder has anything to do with the Borden murder but authors have speculated for some time.

Kindest Regards,
Roger

Someone had asked for some other names...Hart's.  Here you go-
Abraham Gifford Hart 2nd great-grandfather
Charles Sumner Hart great grandfather
Gardiner Tufts Hart grandfather
Anna Russell Hart 2nd great grand- aunt
Catherine Brayton Hart another 2nd great grand-aunt
Carl Hart Granduncle


Abraham G. Hart was from Westport Mass. ...son of Samuel Hart and Mary Brayton.  Moved to Fall River and had his son, Charles Sumner Hart, who married Clara Dodge.  Their daughter, Clara Louisa Hart married Dana S. Hilliard.  Hilliard was on the jury of the Borden trial.  Strange that in-laws and soon to be in-laws were on the jury??

Well, I finally found the time to make a reservation at the B&B.  I'll be there on Dec. 20th for a night with my husband.  I want to take some footage of the place for my records.  I've been posting for awhile and have been quiet about it but I'm a writer and I've been writing a major motion screenplay on Lizzie and the murders.  As you all know I prefer to believe Bill Borden did it.  I'm not finished with the script yet though and all of your ideas are fascinating so maybe one of you will change my mind.   As for being there on the 20th maybe I'll see one or two of you there then and we can hash out our theories. 

>Officers Fleet & Medley both belonged to fraternities,
>& both became Marshal/Chief after Hilliard.  So, that
>political advantage does seem to make sense.

>
>I've never seen any mention of Andrew Borden belonging to
>any lodges, & I suppose that didn't help his lack of
>popularity.

Who is Hilliard?  Please see my other post where a great aunt of mine married a Dana Hilliard that was on the jury.  Is this the same one?

Regards,
Roger

>
>

Knowlton Glossary:
"HART, CHARLES SUMNER 1856 - 1929: born in Fall River, Massachusetts, son of Abraham Gifford and Lydia (Pierce) Hart. Educated in the Fall River public school system, he was first employed as a clerk in the hat shop of William H. Ashley and, later, that of Jeremiah H. Earl. In 1879, he married Miss Clara Frances Dodge, a Fall River schoolteacher. In 1880, he moved to Palmer, Massachusetts. By 1886, he was residing in Concord, Massachusetts, employed as a clerk at the Massachusetts, Reformatory, a state prison. Appointed deputy superintedent in 1892, it was hi this capacity that he presided over the intervicw of Alfrcd A. Smith, an inmate there, concerning that boy's actions the morning of the Borden murders. By 1905, he had been appointed superinten-dent, holding that position until 1909, when he retired and returned to his native city. He was residing in Fall River at the time of his death. In 1914, his daughter, Miss Clara Louise Hart, became the wife of Dana Smith Hilliard, the son of City Marshall Rufus B. Hilliard."

"HILLIARD, RUFUS BARTLETT 1849 - 1912: born in Pembroke, Maine, son of David and Elizabeth (Wilson) Hilliard. He attended schools in Newburyport, Massachusetts, until the age of fifteen when he enlisted in the United States Army. He was stationed at various forts along the Atlantic coast during his three years of service. In 1872, he came to Fall River, Massachusetts, and was employed at the American Printing Company. In 1879, he was appointed to the Fall River Police Department, where he received periodic promotions until, in 1886, he was named city marshall. In 1888, he married Miss Nellie Smith Clark of Fall River. Best known for his involvement in the investigation of the Borden murders, he provided extensive testimony at both the preliminary and final trials which detailed his handling of the case. He was also instrumental the following year in resolving the Bertha Manchester murder case. Under his command, the Fall River Police Department grew to be the third largest in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. He resided in Fall River until his death."

There might be a mix-up in your family legend as to Dana Hilliard.
In Knowlton Papers, 214-217 is a list of potential jurors and he is not on it.
Then, pg. 218-221 there is a list and seating chart of the (final?) jurors.
There are listed as:
Charles Richards
William Deane
Frank Cole
John Finn
Louis Hodges- shows excused
Allen Wordell
George Potter
John Wilbur
Lemuel Wilbur
William Westcott

I don't know that these were the final chosen men, as there is only 10.
There is an LBQ aricle* about it and I think it is in the trial transcript as to final names.
I doubt City Marshal Hilliard's son would be called to the Borden jury.  I'm sure you can now tell that for yourself.
This is all very interesting.
Thanks for your input!

* "Roach, Marilynne K. 'Choosing the Borden Trial Jury.' Lizzie Borden Quarterly VI.4 (October 1999): 1, 18-22.
Roach details the Borden Trial Jury and the manner in which they were chosen to sit on what would be called the trial of the century. Included is a lengthy chart of all prospective jurors examined for the trial, with reference pages to the trial transcript, and a listing of the members of the jury pool not questioned and their cities of residence."
-from:  http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources/BibliographyLBQIssue.htm

(Message last edited Dec-4th-03  5:59 PM.)

Thanks for the link, I love that beautiful handwriting. 

From the Trial transcript:
Page 44

"The jury as completed was made up as follows:

George Potter,   Westport.
William F. Dean,   Taunton.
John Wilbur,   Somerset.
Frederic C. Wilbar, Raynham.
Lemuel K. Wilber,   Easton.
William Westcot, Seekonk.
Louis B. Hodges,   Taunton.
Augustus Swift,   New Bedford.
Frank G. Cole,   Attleborough.
John C. Finn,   Taunton.
Charles I. Richards,   No. Attleborough.
Allen H. Wordell,   Dartmouth.

The clerk called the roll of the jury, the crier counted as they responded, and the clerk announced that all the jurors had responded to their names.

MASON, C.  J. --- As it is the usage in this State for jurors in capital cases not to separate after being sworn until finally discharged from the case, it is customary to give a brief recess for the purpose of the jurors communicating with friends and making their arrangements for such seclusion. You will be under the charge of the officers, and you may now take such recess for half an hour, or so much of it as you may need for that purpose."

Roger,
I can't stop thinking of your posts and your family.  it seems like there are so many ties to the Borden case and Fall River!
Do you know anything about the Manchester case?  Some here are very interested in that and  I wondered if you think the man found guilly did it?*

*(Joseph Correia, Jose Correia, Jose Correia de Mello)

>Roger,
>I can't stop thinking of your posts and your family.  it
>seems like there are so many ties to the Borden case and
>Fall River!

>Do you know anything about the Manchester case?  Some here
>are very interested in that and  I wondered if you think the
>man found guilly did it?*

>
>*(Joseph Correia, Jose Correia, Jose Correia de Mello)

Well, that's what brought me to this sight to begin with.....we are researching it at this time.  When I say we, it is actually a grad student at Emerson College that is.  She contacted my brother, Stephen Manchester Hart.  Her last name is Correia.  At first, she thought this was a grandfather of hers...later found out it wasn't.  Still though, she became interested in the case when she found that Correia was pardoned by the Governor but, he was deported back to Portugal.  Of note, my great great grandmother Jennie Manchester bailed him out of jail.....peculiar???....to say the least.  As/If things unveil themselves further, I'd be happy to post that info.  As well, if anyone has futher info here, I'd love to hear it.  At this point, conjecture is they had the wrong person.  Why would my grandmother bail him out and why would the Governor pardon him?

Kindest Regards,
Roger

Thanks Roger.
I am very interested in this this and so are others.
Maybe when you get enough information, you can write an article for The Hatchet?
That would mean not posting it here, but I could wait longer to get a good article from you (please apply to Stefani.  She can edit and help with it)
I believe she was contacted by this reseacher, as well.
I think you would know more than we do, unless you have not seen the "Bertha Manchester collection" of news articles Harry has put together ?

As to "Pardon", I have seen this before.  I believe this was the only way, back then, to get a prisoner out of jail.  I don't believe it meant the thing we think of now.  Laws were different then.  They didn't have "Appeal", believe it or not.
My thoughts are that in order to deport Jose, he had to be "Pardoned".
It might also, tho, have been some *deal* made with the Government of the Azores?
Thank You for responding.

Hello Kat;
As soon as I know more, I'd be happy to put something together for The Hatchet.  I'm afraid at this point, we're waiting on the thesis to be completed.  My father, William Coolidge Hart, died two years ago.  My brother and I didn't know that he had info archived until this student contacted us.....that's what lead to the website my brother created. 

When I see my brother of Christmas, I'll have a look around my father's office for additional info and at that letter my great great grandmother Jennie wrote about bailing Jose out of jail.

Harry's Bertha Manchester articles......I haven't seen them....I'd be curious.  I wish I could provide more info (or had seen these) but please remember one of my original statements:  this whole topic was something my father and grandmother had just assumed forget.

Kindest Regards,
Roger 

We are on completely different schedules, aren't we?
I get busy around 4 p.m. and I bet by 8 p.m. you're pooped!

I have lately been made aware that another generation, typically 2 generations older than myself, are reticent to talk about true-crime.  It's horrible to them.  I think they were more genteel, than we in this modern age.
It's becoming more understanable to me that they didn't want to talk about such things, nor refer to them.

I will figure this out on my end as to how to help you become more informed on the Manchester murder.
PS:  2 of us think that Jose was possibly railroaded...but we don't know the complete story as well.
For instance:  We have read over & over that Jose was not in this country at the time of the Borden murders but have never seen a footnote or a source for this version.
Arthur Phillips, in his History Of Fall River has part of a page on the Manchester crime, and it doesn't match other accounts.

Here is Phillip's Page on Manchester (he gives permission in the front of the volume to reprint if source was cited)

The Phillips History of Fall River, Fascicle III, by Arthur Sherman Phillips, With additions and interpolations 1941, Privately Printed, Dover Press, Fall River, Mass., 1946, pg. 110:

“The Manchester Murder

     Bertha M. Manchester, daughter of Stephen C. Manchester, was murdered, in the early afternoon of Memorial Day 1893, at the Manchester milk farm on Upper New Boston Road (Meridian Street), by Jose C. DeMello, who had come to this city from the Azores during the preceding summer.
     DeMello was then eighteen years of age and was unable to speak English when he got a job for the winter on the Manchester farm.  It was a hard job and Manchester was not only a hard task-master, but he also paid small wages, and he discharged DeMello in the spring.
     On the day of the murder DeMello knew that his former employer and his son would be covering their milk route, and he believed that other employees would be enjoying a partial holiday, so he returned to the farm for the purpose of robbery.  After he had ransacked the bureau drawers in one of the sleeping rooms , and taken some small trinkets, he was confronted by Manchester’s daughter Bertha, strong of will and muscle, she grappled with him, and to overpower him grabbed a small axe from the kitchen wood-box.  DeMello was able to wrest the axe from her hands, and in order to escape struck her over the head with it and killed her;  whereupon he rushed away, and went into hiding without fully knowing the result.
     Among the articles he had stolen was a silver trade dollar, which the police located in a store where DeMello had bought a pair of shoes and his identification, arrest, confession and plea of guilty of second-degree murder followed in due course.
     The Manchesters were of a very old local family and the murder caused consternation throughout the city.
     After serving twenty years of his life sentence DeMello was pardoned by Governor Foss on condition that he should return to his relatives at St. Miguel Island, Azores.”


This is something different than what the papers say.
Phillips says DeMello came “to this city during the preceding summer”.
The preceding summer was the Borden murders and we have it that Jose had not yet come to this country.
Phillips has him on the property KNOWING others were out and came to rob the place...that Bertha first grabbed the axe, and that she was “struck ...over the head with it and killed her...he rushed away.”
We have it in the papers that she was struck many times and that he lingered for a while in the house.
Then he says the ID, arrest, confession, etc “followed in due coarse.”  His trial was a year later, and it was also nearly a year before he was Indicted.


(Message last edited Dec-11th-03  7:54 PM.)

Here is a link to the census of 1860 and Almira Manchester is there.
http://svr1.marketrends.net/mthome/census/1860fallriver.html

The proposed sale of the B&B has finally hit the pages of the Herald News.  

http://www.heraldnews.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=10651877&BRD=1710&PAG=461&dept_id=99784&rfi=6

I'm glad that Michael Martins agrees that the Leary Press building should go.

There's some hopeful signs in the article.

Hello Kat;
I can't beging to thank you for that info.  After only hearing about the robbery aspect thirty years ago, I had completely forgot about it until reading your post. 

Well, if he was railroaded, it would explain why my grandmother bailed him out.

I will post my from my end as I go through my father's office.

Kindest regards and thanks again.
Roger

Thanks Harry, that was interesting, glad Fall River wants it
presearved and may even help w/funds.

On your front page of this Forum, there is a letter symbol above the left side above "Logout" when a person has in-house e-mail.
Click on that, read and can click "reply" at the bottom of your letter.

We don't think murder was a bailable offense in 1893, as we have checked this possiblitity in the Borden murders.  There were lot's of letters of support for Lizzie by reputable people, some in the Women's Movement, and their pleas were denied.  And no bail for a woman of high class with a famous name in a famous case, means probably no bail for an impoverished foreigner suspected of a brutal murder.  I believe Correira languished in jail almost a year before any dispostion of his case.

I believe that any crime that results in an execution was notbailable; nowadays too. Your state's results may vary.

Hey Roger!
Are you still around?
I'd like to know if you have found the info from Lizzie Borden : A Case Book of Family and Crime in the 1890's, Joyce G. Williams, J. Eric Smithburn, M. Jeanne Peterson, editors, 1980, T.I.S. Publications, Bloomington, Ill.

Mrs. Edith Coolidge Hart's correspondence is quoted there, p.266 and mentioned in the front of the book as well.
You might try to go looking for personal copies of this corresondence, from your "Hart" end.

If you don't have the Casebook info, and you need assistance, you can contact me.

Hello Kat;
I hope you had a nice Christmas.  Yes, I have that book.  We are still doing some research on the Manchester murder.  I'll be out of town for a bit but will update upon my return....found a letter from my Grandmother, Edith Hart, on the issue.

Kindest Regards,
Roger

Cool!

In reproduced pages of The Evening Standard (New Bedford) for May 31, 1893; June 1, 1893; and June 3, 1893 there are some articles and sketches having to do with Bertha Manchester's murder.

I think Harry helped him out with that Evening Standard stuff.
That's good that you did mention that for him as a source.  We're always looking for more stuff on Manchester!
There's also some in Victorian Vistas and I think I will see he gets that.
I wish there was more on it- it's so interesting.

(Message last edited Jan-9th-04  2:10 PM.)

Yes, I did get those articles...thanks for asking.  Kat- a follow up:  I had said previously that my brother, Stephen Manchester Hart, had a letter from my Great Great Grandmother Jenny (Bertha's Mother) that she was questioning here decision on trying to get Bertha's murderer released. 

Well, I looked into it and should correct my information.  The letter is a letter written by MY grandmother Edith Coolidge Hart.  It was written to one of the Boren Murder book authors, recalling the day that she (Edith) accompanied her grandmother (Jenny) to the jail.  In her letter, she stated that her grandmother wanted to see if they could get him released but she was questioning if it was the right thing to do.  In the end, they couldn't anyway.  I'm sorry for passing incorrect info and wanted to correct it. 

Over the holidays, I had plenty of time to go through my father's (William Coolidge Hart) office ...where I found the correct info on the above.  There are many great, original photos of the Manchester clan like my brother posted on his site.  Unfortunately, many are not labled as to who the subject is.  At this time, we don't know if we have an original picture of Bertha.

Regards,
Roger

I think it's wonderful that you came here questioning and willing to gain knowledge on the subject and willing to share!  You did just right and I thank you!

Thanks Kat...I'm glad as well.  I have learned a lot here.  My brother and I were speaking of this over Christmas on how "peculiar" my father's lack of reporting and purposeful "vagueness" of his family history was.

Both my mother's and father's ancestry in this country go back to the early 1600's (father) and late 1500's (mother via Virginia colony).  My mother had family bibles handed down and knew her lineage up and down.  I still own oil portraits of grandparents back to the 1700's on her side.  Compare that to my father-  his family was here almost as long but he was reluctant to recall it.  I've known since I was a child that I was related to the Borden's but it was never explained how....Coolidge side, Hart side, Manchester side etc.  My brother and I didn't know that he (Stephen Manchester Hart), was named after our great great grandfather.  It was always explained to me that I was named after the same on my mother's side (Roger Wellington), I'm Roger Wellington Hart. 

Sorry for giong on...the point is, my father definetly didn't like "his past"- (neither the Borden's, Hart's or Manchester's were the kindest souls I fear).  It is great now, after my parents have died, that you people have been so wonderful in helping me piece things together.

Kindest Regards and God Bless,
Roger

Its best to use a soft lead pencil on the back to avoid acid ink or pressure from ball pens. IMO

Hello.  I'm an occasional lurker but wanted to post an update about the B&B.  I was talking to a friend in Arizona who's a Lizzie expert and collector and a friend of one of the co-owners of 92 Second Street, and she mentioned the House has, in fact, been sold.  You will be glad to know the buyer intends to keep it as a B&B.  Apparently it sold for a little less than the list price.  She said she didn't want to give more details because final escrow papers had not yet been signed. 

Jack