1. "Found Deane's Store!"
Posted by Kat on May-27th-03 at 3:23 AM

I hope you don't mind, emma, I lifted your post to start a fresh thread:

emma
19 posts May-11th-03  11:40 PM
   

23. "Re: Lizzie and jewelry"
In response to message #21

     
What is Deane's and where does Emma refer to the fact that Lizzie ordered a lot of goods from Deane's? I'm curious to know where Lizzie made purchases and what kind of purchases.
.....................

Kat
4653 posts May-11th-03  11:59 PM
   

25. "Re: Lizzie and jewelry"
In response to message #24

     
This would be before the deaths.
In Emma's Inquest testimony:
109
Q.  Do you know where the marketing was done?
A.  No.

Q.  Didnt have any particular place?
A.  We always had the groceries from Mr. Wades. and John M. Deane's. My sister used to order a great many things from John M. Deane's.

Q.  Was that a meat market?
A.  No Sir.

--Wades was apparently for groceries, That was the next building south of the Kelly's house.  I don't know what Deane's was or where.  I could check...or someone can check?

....................

J. Clegg, in the Preliminary Hearing testimony, 213+:

.... I went out of my store to So. Main street. I looked at the City Hall clock, it was half past ten; he had only just gone out. I called at John M. Deane’s for some material I wanted in the other store. I came back to my store and sent my clerk to dinner at 20 minutes past eleven exactly.
.....
....A.  To the best of my knowledge he went south. I did not watch him.
Q.  Which way did you go?
A.  South.
Q.  Did you go the same way?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Which side of the street did you go on?
A.  I came in front of Granite Block, west side.
Q.  Of Main street?
A.  Yes, crossed over the top of Pocasset street to go to John M. Deane’s.
Q.  That is on the east side of Main street.
A.  I went on the west side to Brady’s drug store, and crossed over there to go to John M. Deane’s.
Q.  That is on the east side of Main street?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Where from that?
A.  92 So. Main street, to the store.
Q.  How near is that to the corner of Spring street?
A.  Four stores.
Q.  Is it on the same side of the street with Whitehead’s meat market?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  That market is on the corner of Spring and Main, and your new store is the third or fourth this side?
A.  Yes Sir.

--I believe Clegg was in haberdashery, hats, men's clothing.  It sounds like Deane's may have sold material, as in cloth.
I surmised before that he might also sell gee-gaws and decorative items.  I wonder if Lizzie had an expense account there?

(Message last edited May-27th-03  3:56 AM.)

Woo hoo!  Good going, Kat!  Thanks for that, it was within walking distance of the Borden home.  Where is Whitehead's market in relation to Deane's? 

(Message last edited May-28th-03  12:03 AM.)

(Message last edited May-28th-03  12:03 AM.)

Wow!  Thanks, Kat.  I had no idea that Whitehead's was just a block away, how conveniant!  It its really helpful to see it on a map like that, the locations of these key places.  Thank you again. 

It wasn't a block away in early 1890's.  It was located on the site where the current Union Bank Building now stands, very near where AJB's Union Bank was.  Perhaps, Kat, your info is based on that map which I believe is 1877.  By then they may have moved. These photos were provided by Florence Brigham, past Curator Emeritus of the FRHS to Judith Boss for her Pictorial History of Fall River
-Victor


(Message last edited May-28th-03  8:19 PM.)

My placements are approximate, using a map of 1877, and not knowing the exact shop number.
Otherwise, the stores are located, in 1892 about where I placed them according to testimony...please anyone see post #1.

I don't think the testimony makes it clear the exact location of the store.  On the other hand, I would think phrasing such as "adjacent to City Hall....", but it IS on the same side of the Street as Deanes.
It may be that Whiteheads moved to Main & Market shortly after the Trial.  Prosperous merchants got a bigger establishment with electric lighting???

And just for fun.....Here's L i z z z z z z i e....

(Message last edited May-28th-03  8:18 PM.)

Stefani, I did get your email and I've written to Faye to email me her permission.  I don't think she'll mind.  Why so harsh?  I think what would be objectionable is if I were to sell the images which, of course,  I don't intend to do.  Just sharing for Lizzie enthusiasts as I am.

-Victor

I wonder how long it will be before MY fake photos start showing up here. There was always one or two of them on ebay being used to try to sell Lizzie items.

Trouble is they weren't on anything I was selling!

Hey, just help yourself.  No honor among thieves.

Fredd/Victor,

I asked you three times to remove the copyrighted material or get permission. You did not reply to either of my first two pleas (on the forum and in an email), nor have you removed the images. Then you posted another image clearly marked copyright. Why do you feel the need to challenge me?

Thinking for yourself that the person will not mind is not an appropriate way to handle this. You cannot assume that what you are doing is pre-approved just because it seems reasonable to you. Your sharing is stealing unless you have express permission to post them.

There is only one other person that I know of who thinks the way you do about copyright law. Unfortunately, you are both incorrect in your assumptions.

Remove the images please.

No need to email...why not just have a look in the mirror?

(Message last edited May-28th-03  8:57 PM.)

Personally, I think this should be a Phart-free zone, why
promote her? I don't think anyone from here buys from her -- so
why should we listen to this even if she gives her ok?
Fredd why is she mentioned in almost every one of your posts?

Super find Kat!!!  One less little mystery. 

When they had dresses made did the dressmaker bring the material with her of was it their responsibility to get the material themselves?  Maybe Lizzie got some of her cloth from Deanes for her dresses.

(Not trying to answer for Kat; just showing off my impressive knowledge of dressmaking, not to mention my age.)
My maternal grandmother did dressmaking in the 1930s and 40s.  She would never have provided the material herself.  The pattern and the fabric were provided by the client.  However, Grandmother could make clothing without a pattern, so some of her clients came armed with only an idea.  They would do some sketches together and then Grandmother would make a pattern, fit it on the client, and proceed to make it up.  A person who actually had a dressmaking establishment might have carried fabrics, though.  Many dressmakers, such as my Grandmother, sewed in their homes or the client's home and didn't have room to store materials.

Oh, I wasn't asking Kat specifically on the dressmaking. I did however want to congratulate her on this terrific find. Shows what can happen when we actually read some of this stuff.

Since Lizzie's dresses were made at home then she would have had the cloth there.  I can't see much else that Lizzie would order from Deanes if they sold cloth.

 

I wonder if Lizzie did as Emma did in her letter to the dressmaker, that letter where Emma talks of needing a new dress and suggests what material would be appropriate for it to her.  I wonder if by the Borden family always using the same dressmaker if she might bring fabric or at least swatches knowing that so-and-so needed a new housedress or walking dress and these materials would be liked by them, go with their coloration and be in style, etc.   

I'm SO glad an expert answered.  Or should I say someone more experienced than myself?

So thanks for that, Edisto.

I will love to read and hear about cloth and patterns and dressmaking etc, BUT I myself cannot abide the DOING of it, myself.
Home Ec was Home ICK, especially when I found out that part of my grade would be based on the utterly Lousy job I did at sewing and then the insult was compounded by the fact, I found out too late, that I had to WEAR my horror to school for the whole day!
That is guaranteed to make an 8th grader despise sewing forever.
However, FASHIONS are another story altogether!

This is from the October 1998 Lizbits column (page 5) by Neilson Caplain. Mr. Caplain cites as his source for the locations the 1892 and 1893 Fall River city directories.  He is describing the sites Andrew would have seen on his last walk home.

"Proceeding along the Academy Building, Andrew nodded in his usual gruff manner to acknowledge the greeting called out by John M. Deane. This well-known merchant was arranging wares at the rear entrance to his extensive grocery store at 43-49 Second Street. His emporium also offered for sale drugs and medicine, tobacco and cigars, as well as wholesale and retail groceries.

Mr. Deane suffered the loss of a leg in the Civil War and was awarded the Medal of Honor for bravery under fire. Abby Borden frequently patronized his store, as well as the competing Hudner's Grocery around the corner...."

As Andrew passes each building Mr. Caplain details its occupants and the buildings use.

This was the second of two articles Mr. Caplain wrote on Second Street in 1892.  Both are wonderfully written and do a great deal to bring the area to life. Probably as close as we'll ever get.

(Message last edited May-29th-03  2:04 PM.)

Maybe you just didn't have the Right Attitude to succeed? Shame on anyone who demeans this practical course.

If this persists, just remove this person from the board. If not, you risk the chance of an agent provocateur creating a reason for Arborwood's eliminating this board, as was done by your copycat competitor. Do not fall for an "honest mistake" by a Phriend of Phaye.

There was no TV and little radio(?) in those days. And it was the Depression. Good women made their own dresses just like they cooked their own meals and managed their own vegetable gardens, etc.

Those who live in a rural area learn self-reliance. There are no stores on the next corner to shop. Few cars in those days too.
Remember when a peddlar came around with his horse and cart?

Oh I learned everything else!
I sure can cook, etc.  BUT I didn't learn it there, in that class.
It was a lousy class and all I most remember of it was making desserts and getting to eat them after.  It was also during the time Kennedy was shot, so there is a blank in my schooling memory.
I did learn Home Ec. stuff AT HOME, our mom being the BEST teacher!

My aptitude was not in the manuel dexterity of pinning , the math of measuring, the cutting of a straight line or a forecast view of the finished product of a sewing assignment.  I doubt anyone is proficient in everything they try!
Just because I can't sew a blouse, I hope doesn't disqualify me from your list of people valuable in the world!  I do have compensating abilities, I assure you.
Besides which our mother was an expert sewer and she could be relied upon most of my life.
(I did know how to hem and I could *peg* my jeans like a pro!).

That's interesting about Deane's store, Har!
I think Caplain does also use newspapers for sources.
I wonder why he places it at Second Street  when testimony places the store at  Main and Pocasset and Clegg says he gets material there?
Emma DID say they got groceries there.
Could be like a *General Store*?
I wonder how we reconcile this location?
Any ideas anyone?

(Message last edited May-30th-03  12:17 AM.)

Maybe Deane had two stores.  Also Caplain's article reads:

"This well-known merchant was arranging wares at the rear entrance to his extensive grocery store at 43-49 Second Street."

Does he mean the rear entrance was on Second Street? Could the store have run the length of the building between Main and Second? Just guessing here.

Yes, I think it's possible!  Yea!
Rebello, pg. 566 has a street plot which shows Second Street, in 1892, as extending all the way to Pocasset.
So somewhere in the triangle then formed of Second, Pocasset & Main was Deane's and It sounds huge!
I also see Clegg says he wanted material from there, but I suppose *material* is ambiguous.

(Message last edited May-30th-03  2:48 AM.)