1. "In response to messages # 21, 32, 36, 39,41,42,44,46 etc."
Posted by fritz on Feb-25th-04 at 2:13 PM

Hello everybody,

I want to thank you all who have taken time to read my essay and also – many of you – to comment on it. Many of you seem critical of the incest theory. Well, I have stated the reasons which led me to believe that there was incest and I have nothing more to offer here.

One respondent could not believe in a conspiracy. The risk of betrayal, extortion etc would not go away when the immediate crisis was over but would be there for ever. Others did not think that Lizzie would ever have received a gentleman alone in her bedroom. How could she know that someone who was willing to murder and in fact did murder, would not turn on her too? And besides, a victorian lady like Lizzie would not do such a thing. Well, instinctively I share these feelings.

The mistake we do when we make these objections is that we judge the situation from our own vantage point, i.e. an outsider´s vantage point. But these people – Lizzie. Emma, John Morse and William Davis – were insiders. L, E and JVM certainly knew they could trust one another and JVM had a close relationship with WD and could vouch for him. So it probably never entered their heads that the necessary secrecy would be violated and Lizzie would never have considered the possibility that WD would turn on her as a risk. She and WD worked together according to a plan they had both agreed on and he did what he had to do according to that plan. So why should she fear him? Bonnie did not mind spending a lot of time alone with Clyde although she knew he was a killer and the same goes for Clyde. Apparently they were not afraid of each other. And Leopold spent time alone with Loeb after Loeb had killed poor little Bobby Franks. Why did not Leopold flee from the car? My scenario says that Lizzie led Davis through her own bedroom into Emma´s. Lizzie was fully dressed and both bedrooms were in order but for the sloppail in Lizzie´s room which had not yet been emptied. I think those delicate victorian feelings could be overcome if enough hung in the balance, e.g. around 300,000 dollars.

To get hold of the couples bedroom key and murder them at night would not be a practical thing to do. The murders would then be carried out almost simultaneously and it would be impossible to say, medically or otherwise, which of them died first. It was important, for the sake of inheritance, that there would be no doubt that Mrs. Borden died before her husband.

Well, this will be all for now, it will be too long otherwise although there is more to say. Once again, thank you!
Fritz 

I walked around pondering your theories for days after reading your piece in the first HATCHET, and at this point in my "life with Lizzie," I appreciate a well thought-out challenge to old ideas. 

Topic ”Essay in The Hatchet by Fritz

fritz:
In response to message # 2


You seem to have some dificulties about what to think. Maybe I can help you – and others – a little bit along the way by adding some evidence which I forgot to discuss in my essay. It concerns Morse and the cellar door (page 28, p 1.27). My point is that, coming back from the Emery´s, Morse went into the back yard with the sole purpose to establish that the cellar door was open. He was anxious to show that the killer could have entered the house, undetected, at some time during the night. To his disappointment he found the door closed and bolted.

Despite that, at the pretrial (p.264 – 265 and 268 – 269) he said that he had seen the cellar door open when he returned from the Emery´s. But when Knowlton, clearly sceptical, pressed him he immediately backtracked. If others said it was closed he would not contradict them and so on. Had he told anyone of his observation? Yes, he thought he had. Someone investigating the murders? He wasn´t sure. Knowlton himself? Oh no! Did he not know that the police was eager to establish how the killer could access the house? And so on. You can read those pages yourself and you will find that Morse gives a most difinite impression of being scared. You don´t? Well, what about  this, then?

A reporter had the following to say about Morse´s performance at the pretrial: ”Mr. Morse was dreadfully ill at ease during District Attorney Knowlton´s examination. He wrung his hands and twisted and untwisted his long gray trousered legs in excessive nervousness. When he passed into the hands of the counsel for the defense, however, he seemed to take heart, stood straightly, spoke up and faced the people.”  (Kent: The LB Sourcebook, page 161, col.1).

There are other indications that the cellar door was uppermost in Morse´s as well as Lizzie´s minds. On the murder day Morse asked Asst Marshall Fleet if Fleet thought that the killer could have been concealed in the house the house during the night. (Witness´ statements….page 3).
And at about 7 am on August 5 Officer Edson was in the kitchen when Lizzie entered. Lizzie said: ”Maggie, are you sure the back cellar door was fastened?” Bridget replied: ”Yes, Marm.” (Witness statements….page 35-36)

Probably Bridget had accidentally discovered that the cellar door was open, perhaps when she returned the pail to the laundry, her window washing finished. Then she fastened it. She kept quiet about it out of fear that the police would think her resposible for the killer´s access, either by negligence or by purpose.

Regarding conspiracies: THAT is how the world works. (See the "Burr Conspiracy", etc.) Note that the 1773 Boston Tea Party, with a few dozen participants and more knowing or suspecting, was never solved. 230 years later we still don't know who did it, and never will.
...
Year corrected. You could also look up the Blount Conspiracy; this US Senator was impeached and fled west one jump ahead of the US Marshalls.

(Message last edited Mar-26th-04  9:49 AM.)

When I have read that about the cellar door and Morse's inference that it was open or unlocked, always made it seem that he was being cagey and crafty to not tell an officer but tell  Charles Holmes., like selling a rumor after the fact, in case it could not be proved otherwise.
And yes it seems like his purpose in going first to the back yard does seem to be so that he could later give his "observation" that he thought the cellar door was open.  It sounded like he was committed to this testimony regardless of any reasonable question.
I don't know how trustworthy the newsman is in saying Morse kept shifting his stance- how can Morse twist his legs if he is standing?  It gives the impression of a little kid having to "go'.

Obviously Uncle John V Morse knew how to sneak into the back yard; would others have known this?
Any newspaper report should be measured against the newspaper's outlook. Were they for or against LAB?

That's a good point.  How did Morse come in through the back.  Did he cut through the Churchill's backyard?  And if he did, could someone else have?  Of course, there were plenty of distractions up front when JVM showed up.  (A home invader would not have had that advantage.)

--Lyddie

Trial
Morse
139
Q.  When you got to the Borden house did anything attract your attention at first?
A.  No, sir.

Q.  Where did you first go?
A.  Went into the back door, round the rear part of the house, to a pear tree.

Q.  Did you do anything out there?
A.  Picked up two or three pears.

Q.  Did you begin to eat them or not?
A.  I ate part of one of them.

Q.  Where did you go then?
A.  Went to the house.

Q.  When you got to the house were you informed by any one that something had happened there?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  In consequence of that information did you go into the house?
A.  I did.
..........

That part doesn't make sense.

.............
152:
Q.  And you said that you went out to the pear tree?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Well, they were not there, were they, when you went by, or were they?
A.  I didn't see them outside when I went by.

Q.  That is, as you came you came up the walk, and instead of passing up the steps you went right around behind the house to the pear tree?
A.  I went right around to the tree.

Q.  Can you locate the pear tree to which you went; I do not mean the particular one, but which part of the yard, Mr. Morse?
A.  It stands to the south part of the yard, not a great ways from the end of the grape vine arbor.

Q.  That would be southerly of the southerly end of the grape vine arbor?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Well, you stopped there because there were pears there?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Then how long do you think you were out there?
A.  I don't think I was there more than two or three minutes.

Q.  Then you came back to that side door?
A.  Yes, sir.
.........
Preliminary
Morse
253
[He says he arrived About a quarter to 12]

Q.  When you came up the street, who, if anybody, did you see before you went into the yard, as you came up Second street?

A.  No one that I could recognize. There might have been a few men along, the same as generally. I did not see anything unusual about it.

Q.  Which gate did you go into?
A.  Into the north small gate.

Q.  Where did you go?
A.  I went around to the pear tree.

Q.  But you did not have to go by the screen door to get to the pear tree?
A.  Yes sir.

Q.  Did not you see anybody in the entry way then?
A.  No sir.

Q.  Neither Bridget nor Mr. Sawyer?
A.  No I did not.

Q.  You went right back to the back door?
A.  Yes sir.

Q.  How long did you stay out there under the pear tree?
A.  I might have been there two or three minutes.

Q.  Did you see anybody in the yard at that time?
A.  I do not think I did.

Q.  Then you came back to the screen door, and there you found Bridget?
A.  Yes sir.

Many have commented on JVM's lack of awareness of the crowd in front.
Did he ever explain why? Or did he already "know too much"? Didn't JVM first visit 3rd st(?) where Hiram had his stable?

One day of shunning.
Now I will talk to you.
Morse went to the post office and then to the Emerys to visit his niece who was in town from Minnesota.
He left there at 11:20 a.m. and took a car.  (trolley thingy)
He arrived back at 11:45.  When did he go elsewhere?

30 Borden Street, corner of Fourth.
Thanks Har! (he is the keeper of Addresses.)

Don't things look better on Monday mornings after a nights' rest?
According to AR Brown (book or his letter to this site?), JVM first went to 3rs St(?) where Hiram's stable was. As if to find out "how in God's name this happened?" before going to the Borden home. JVM must have heard what happened from Dr Bowen's visit.
All I know is what I read in some books, and this site, from memory.
The best laid plans of mice and men still go astray.

Please read post #11, which gives the address of Hiram's place of work.
If I look it up for you, you can at least take note?  Won't that be helpful to your memory in the future?

so funny, you two are like an old married couple. 

I agree -- and isn't it time y'all made this relationship legal?

I like to keep things straight as much as possible for readers who don't know what is real and what is not.
I don't challenge his opinion, I pick up after him.
Thanks, I don't need another job "caring" for someone.
He's old enough to look stuff up.
I'm too young for him.  Besides I'm buying a hatchet soon! 

(Message last edited Mar-30th-04  12:54 AM.)

Not only that, but Kat is simply too enchanting, too captivating and far too lovely to settle down with just one....

If she did, the streets in Florida would be strewn with men who have taken their miserable lives knowing she is out of circulation!

Wow gee whiz you guys!
You know, my sister once said to me:
"If you want a boyfriend, you have to get out there.  They won't come knocking on your door."

Well, very shortly after that, a potential beau did come knocking on my door- with flowers and perfume!!
He lived across the street!
Blew Stef away!

He was probably intrigued by the sight of a sweet young thing wearing a rubber dusting cap and trying to clear out the guestroom cobwebs with a hatchet.  No, seriously, we all think you're the Kat's pajamas!

--Lyddie

What is the "cat's pajamas"? Are they available mail-order? Do they come in fur or animal-friendly wool?

i had not thought of it in just that way before, but if she wanted a cantankerous father figure..............haha.....that's funny.

i wouldn't think so, though.

red flannel

--Lyddie