1. "The lock on the front door"
Posted by Jimmy Windeskog on Feb-8th-04 at 6:14 AM
Dose not the way the front door was locked show us that the door was locked by someone who dosent used to lock the door and dident know who it was done.
This sholud tell us that at lest one person was in the house besides Lizzie and Sullivan? The door was clerly open by someone before in the morning (Abby? Some things points to that), so the door sholud not been locked the way it was when Andrew came home.
Sounds to me that this may point to the Brown-story?
(Forgive me for my bad english)
Interesting concept and worth a discussion.
Your English is very good. How long have you been speaking it?
When I began to learn English it was a triumph for me when everything I said and heard could be understood by me and the people I was talking to.
Now I have lived in America for 20 years. I still think in my native language--and dream in it!
(Message last edited Feb-8th-04 11:50 AM.)
I live i Sweden so i seldom talk english at all, but i have reda it i high school.
Back to the point, i cant belive that Sullivan or Lizzie had locked the door the way i was locked, so i belive we hade a third part i the house.
I belive Lizzies and Sullivans testimonys can give me rigth here. They talk about three pepole in the house when Andrew comes home, oddly two of this three persons are Lizzie (Sullivan says Lizzie was on the stares, Lizzie said that she was in the back of the house on the ground floor).
Here are Lizzie, Emma, Morse and Bridget on the subject of the front door locks.
Jerome Borden also testified as to the spring lock but that was the next day. (See Prelim 476+)
Lizzie says as far as she knew she was alone in the house during the time Bridget was washing windows and while Morse was gone and Andrew was gone. (and supposedly Abby was out).
As far as I can tell, when Andrew came home there was the understanding that only Lizzie and Bridget were there.
It is also the understanding that Lizzie was usually in charge of unlocking the front door in the morning and it was not done on Thursday.
>>
Front door Locks:
Inquest
Lizzie
54+
A. I spent the evening with Miss Russell.
Q. As near as you can remember, when did you return?
A. About nine o'clock at night.
Q. The family had then retired?
A. I don't know whether they had or not. I went right to my room; I don't remember.
Q. You did not look to see?
A. No sir.
Q. Which door did you come in at?
A. The front door.
Q. Did you lock it?
A. Yes sir.
Q. For the night?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And went right up stairs to your room?
A. Yes sir.
..........
Q. Did you have a night key?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How did you know it was right to lock the front door?
A. That was always my business.
Q. How many locks did you fasten?
A. The spring locks itself, and there is a key to turn, and you manipulate the bolt.
Q. You manipulated all those?
A. I used them all.
Q. Then you went to bed?
A. Yes, directly.
.........
61
A. I think he came to the front door and rang the bell, and I think Maggie let him in, and he said he had forgotten his key; so I think she must have been down stairs.
Q. His key would have done him no good if the locks were left as you left them?
A. But they were always unbolted in the morning.
Q. Who unbolted them that morning?
A. I don't think they had been unbolted; Maggie can tell you.
Q. If he had not forgotten his key it would have been no good?
A. No, he had his key and could not get in. I understood Maggie to say he said he had forgotten his key.
Q. You did not hear him say anything about it?
A. I heard his voice, but I don't know what he said.
Q. I understood you to say he said he had forgotten his key?
A. No, it was Maggie said he said he had forgotten the key.
Q. Where was Maggie when the bell rang?
A. I don't know, sir.
Q. Where were you when the bell rang?
A. I think in my room up stairs.
.........
68
Q. After he went out, and before he came back; a large portion of the time after your father went out, and before he came back, so far as you know, you were the only person in the house?
A. So far as I know, I was.
Q. And during that time, so far as you know, the front door was locked?
A. So far as I know.
Q. And never was unlocked at all?
A. I don't think it was.
Q. Even after your father came home, it was locked up again?
A. I don't know whether she locked it up again after that or not.
Q. It locks itself?
A. The spring lock opens.
Q. It fastens it so it cannot be opened from the outside?
A. Sometimes you can press it open.
Q. Have you any reason to suppose the spring lock was left so it could be pressed open from the outside?
A. I have no reason to suppose so.
Q. Nothing about the lock was changed before the people came?
A. Nothing that I know of.
________
Inquest
Emma
114
Q. I dont think I will trouble you with that question any how. Did you use to keep the back door, the screen door, fastened, was that the habit of the household?
A. Intended to when they were in.
Q. How about the front door?
A. We locked that with a spring lock.
Q. Did the spring lock work?
A. Once in a while we would find it did not, but very seldom.
Q. The few times it did not work, did it not come from the fact the door was not slammed too enough to catch the spring?
A. I suppose that must have been it.
Q. You had not had it repaired?
A. No Sir.
Q. It is in the same condition now it had been?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You have lived there since the tragedy; you are still living in the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It works as well now as it did; there is no difference in it?
A. So far as I know, it does.
Q. Was it the habit to keep the front door locked with the spring lock?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How about the bolt and the big lock?
A. We used those only when we went to bed.
Q. When did they get unlocked in the morning?
A. Usually when my sister or I came down stairs, one or the other unlocked them.
______
Inquest
Morse
102
Q. Which door did you go out of?
A. The back door.
Q. Was it fastened when you went out?
A. Yes, and Mr. Borden opened it and let me out, and hooked it himself.
Q. After you got out?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was it the habit to keep that hooked?
A. Always.
Q. And the front door?
A. Always keep it fastened; they have been very cautious, always have been, about the doors.
........
Preliminary Hearing
Morse
252
Q. Did you hear any sounds from Lizzie’s room before you went away, and while you were sitting in the sitting room?
A. I do not know that I did.
Q. You did not notice any?
A. No Sir.
Q. You do not know whether she had got up or not?
A. I do not.
Q. You told Mr. Knowlton that that front door of the house fastened with a spring lock.
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was there any other lock or bolt upon it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What?
A. There was a common lock that is in most of doors, and then there was a bolt.
Q. Beside the spring lock?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know whether those locks or bolts were used at all?
A. They have been used nights since I have been there. I do not know what they did with them before. I suppose they were used before.
Q. At night they not only had the spring lock, but used the other lock and the bolt?
A. They did when I was there; I do not know what they did before; when I am not there I do not know.
Q. Before you went away that morning, had anybody gone out the front door to your knowledge?
A. No Sir.
Q. Since the murder have you seen that front door tried to see whether it would close without springing the lock, or not?
A. I have.
Q. How did it act?
A. Sometimes it would open without turning.
Q. Was that when it was not slammed too hard, that it would shut without springing the lock?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then it could be opened by anybody without touching the lock?
A. Sometimes it could; and sometimes it could not
.........
Preliminary Hearing
Bridget
19+
A. I heard him at the door. I cannot tell did he ring the bell or not, but I heard a person at the door trying to get in; and I let him in.
Q. What was it you heard exactly?
A. Somebody trying to unlock the door.
Q. You was then in the sitting room washing the windows?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you do?
A. I went and let him in.
Q. It was Mr. Borden was it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Have you any idea what time that was?
A. It might be later than half past ten; I could not tell.
Q. What locks on the front door did you find locked when you let him in?
A. The bolt and a common key that I turned on both sides.
Q. Anythingelse?
A. No Sir.
Q. A spring lock?
A. Yes Sir. He had a key.
Q. He unlocked that from the outside?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that spring lock set to lock the door up when it was shut?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Up to the time you let Mr. Borden in, had you seen Miss Lizzie?
A. She was up stairs at the time I let him in.
Q. Where up stairs?
A. She might be in the hall, for I heard her laugh.
Q. Up the back or front stairs?
A. The front stairs.
Q. At the time you let Mr. Borden in?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that the first you had heard or seen of her since you spoke to her at the back door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You had not seen her or Mrs. Borden during the intermediate time?
A. No Sir.
Q. What was the occasion of her laugh?
A. I got puzzled on the door, I said something, and she laughed at it; I supposed that must make her laugh, I dont know.
Q. She laughed when you said something?
A. Yes Sir. I did not expect the door was locked. I went to open it. I was puzzled; I went to unlock it twice.
Q. What was it you said, if it is not too bad to repeat?
A. No. I did not say much.
Q. Some exclamation you made when you had trouble with the door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that the time she laughed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did she laugh out loud?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Say anything?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see her then?
A. No Sir.
........
Trial
Bridget
Q. What was the occasion of going to the front door on Wednesday?
A. I let Dr. Bowen in.
Q. Was that in the morning or afternoon?
A. It was in the morning.
Q. Did you go to the door again on Wednesday after you let Dr. Bowen in?
A. No, sir.
Q. How was the door when you let Dr. Bowen in on Wednesday?
A. The spring lock had the key in it.
Q. Sprung locked, was it?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you say you had no occasion to go to that door again on that day?
A. No, sir.
........
Q. Did you hear the ringing of any bell? [THURSDAY]
A. No sir, I don't remember to hear any bell.
Q. When you got to the front door what did you find the condition of the locks there?
A. I went to open it, caught it by the knob, the spring lock, as usual, and it was locked. I unbolted it and it was locked with a key.
Q. So that there were three locks?
A. Yes sir.
Q. What did you do with reference to the lock with the key?
A. I unlocked it. As I unlocked it I said, "Oh pshaw," and Miss Lizzie laughed, up stairs. -- Her father was out there on the door step. She was up stairs.
Q. Up stairs; could you tell whereabouts up stairs she was when she laughed?
A. Well, she must be either in the entry or in the top of the stairs, I can't tell which.
Q. Was there any talk passed between you and Mr. Borden as he came to the door?
A. No sir, not a word.
Q. I am reminded that one question was unanswered. How many locks on the front door were unlocked as you went there, -- locks and bolts, I mean?
A. There was a bolt and there was a spring lock, and there was a key.
Q. And those were all locked?
A. Yes sir.
Q. During the morning hours, usually, was that door kept locked otherwise than by the spring lock?
A. I don't know anything about the door; I didn't have nothing to do to it.
Q. After you had let Mr. Borden in, where did you go?
A. I went on washing my window.
.......
Q. Were you in the habit of tending the bell calls at the front door?
A. Yes sir, when Mr. Borden or Mrs. Borden was not at home, but when they were in the sitting-room I did not go to the door.
Q. At any time when you answered the bell call did you find the door locked in the way you described this morning?
MR. ROBINSON. Wait a moment. I object to that.
MR. MOODY. It has been suggested that it may appear hereafter on the testimony of Miss Lizzie Borden that it was her habit to unlock the door in the morning and leave the door on the spring lock only.
MR. ROBINSON. I suppose that is not now before the Court.
MASON, C.J. We exclude it.
MR. MOODY. The witness is yours unless something
has escaped us. I tried
very hard that there should be nothing.
(Message last edited Feb-8th-04 7:38 PM.)
Mrs. Kelly thought she saw key or keys in the hand of Andrew when he approached the front door.
Keys were apparently found on his body.
by all i can figure, the front door was locked as it would normally be locked at night. the difference that morning was that no one had opened it until andrew came home and tried to open it with his key. his key would not have got him in since at least one of the locks or bolts was on the interior.
From what i have read i Viktoria Lincons book the front door was opend at least two times that morning. One time by Sullivan and one time by a unknown person who shout the door in the face of a young man with a unknoen reson to knock on the door (Lincon belive it was Lizzie who opend the door that time, I think it just as well colud be Abby).
So i still say that the door was locked later that morning by someone who didt know how to lock it. Who and why, i dont have a clue...
(Message last edited Feb-9th-04 7:05 AM.)
I think the most logical explanation is that Lizzie locked all the locks on the door on her way upstairs to murder Abby, to make sure she wasn't interrupted. I don't see anything sinister in Bridget's clumsy struggle to open the door later. It may simnply have been that she was surprised to find all three of the locks shut (which they normally wouldn't have been at that time of the morning). Or she could have been rattled by Andrew banging at the door from the other side (she was probably more nervous around him than around any other member of the family). Or her hands could have been wet and slippery from her window washing.
Ok, I guess thats make sence, but only if Lizzie was afried of Andrew coming home in the middel of the day.
I guess its possible, but Andrew wasnt supposed to come at that time at all.
It all comes down to if we belive if Lizzie is the muderess, or if someone else was in on it (or done it).
I still belive it could have been three persons in the house when Andrew came home after reading Sullivans and Lizzies testimonys.
BTW, you all are welcome for the testimonies I researched on the locking of the front door.
This next part was simple to find, no big deal:
Fleet's notes say that Lizzie did say a man came to the door that morning but somehow that *info* sort of drops to the wayside later and it's not confirmed. Masterton has a bit on the theory that Clegg came to the front door that morning about his store. Apparently, tho, this could be mixed up with another day earlier that week. Dr. Bowen came Wednesday morning and I think? that Clegg came Tuesday?
It is a valid point to ponder whether anyone came to the door Thursday.
However we should include in the speculation the possibility that a man came not to the front door, but to the side screen door , including the bearer of a note.
Also, tho, Bridget says she did not see anyone, when asked.
(Personally I would advise sticking to the Source Documents and not rely on Lincoln in any way if you are writing an essay.)
Witness Statements
Fleets notes, page 2+
"JOHN FLEET
August 4, 1892.
Went to the Borden house 92 Second Street at about between 11.45 and 12 M. Found Mr Borden dead on the lounge; head badly cut; Dr. Dolan standing over him. Went up stairs; found Mrs. Borden dead on the floor between the bed and dressing case; head badly smashed, face downward.
Saw Lizzie A. Borden in bedroom on same floor, was sitting with Minister Buck on lounge. Asked her what she knew of these murders. She said that she knew nothing further than her father came in about 10.30 or 10.45 A. M. and that he seemed to be quite feeble, and she helped him, and advised him to lay down on the lounge, which he did.
'I was ironing handkerchiefs in the Dining room, which I left and went in the barn, up stairs, and remained there for half an hour. Bridget had gone up stairs, and when I came back I found father dead on the lounge, and went to the back stairs and called Bridget (servant) down stairs. Told her that some one had killed father, and told her to get Dr. Bowen.' 'Did you see anyone around here?' 'No, I had not seen anyone in the house or yard.' 'Who is this Mr. Morse?' 'He is my Uncle; he came here last night, and slept here, but went away before nine o’clock A. M. and did not get back until after the murder; he could not know anything about the murder.' 'Have you any idea who could have done this?' 'No, I do not know that my father had bad trouble with anyone. But about two weeks ago a man called, and they had some talk about a shop; and father told him that he could not have it for that purpose. The man talked as though he was angry; did not know who he was, did not see him, could not tell all that he said. A man came here this morning about nine o’clock, I think he wanted to hire a store, talked English. I did not see him; heard father shut the door, and think the man went away.'
Saw Lizzie two hours later, wanted to search her room. Dr. Bowen was in. She did now want to be bothered, would make her sick. Told her that I must search on account of the murders; otherwise should not be doing my duty. She then allowed the search to go on. Could not find anything in the room which would show blood, and found no instruments that had been used for murder. She said that it was impossible for anyone to get in or throw anything in her room, because she always kept it locked.
Lizzie said that she had not seen Mrs. Borden since about nine o’clock. She then saw her in the bedroom when she was coming down stairs.
Had a conversation with Bridget Sullivan. Said she saw Mr. Borden come in the house about 10:40 A. M. 'Saw him come in the dining room, go to the window and look at some papers which he had in his hands. He then went in the sitting room, sat down in the large chair near the window, and left Lizzie ironing some handkerchiefs in the dining room. Went up stairs at 10.55 to fix my room. After I had been in the room about ten minutes, Lizzie called me down stairs, saying that her father was dead, some one had killed him, go and get Dr. Bowen. I went for the Doctor; he was not in, and I went for a Miss Russell on Borden street.' 'Did you see anyone that you think would or could have done the killing?' 'No, I did not. I was washing the windows outside, and did not see anyone but Mr. Morse that morning; and he went away before nine o’clock. Am very sure that I was not up stairs more than ten to fifteen minutes. I did not hear the door opened while I was up stairs, nor did I see anyone from my window.'
Conversed with John V. Morse at the A. J. Borden house. Said that he was A. J. Borden’s brother-in-law, his sister was Mr. Borden’s first wife. Had always been on friendly terms with the family, and had frequently made visits to his house. 'Last night I stopped here, and slept in the room where Mrs. Borden was found dead. I arrived here yesterday afternoon from New Bedford. Called upon Mr. Borden. Afterward got a carriage from Kirby’s stable, and went to Mr. Borden’s farm, arriving at the house again about 8.30 P. M. We sat up I think until about ten o’clock. Went to bed in the room, as before stated. Got up about six o’clock this morning, got breakfast about seven o’clock, stopped in the house till about 8.40 A. M. Leaving Mr. Borden at the door, went to the Post Office, wrote a letter from there, went as far as Third street on Bedford, from Third to Pleasant street, through Pleasant street to No. 4 Weybosset. Street, arriving there about 9.30 A. M. Saw relatives from the West. Remained at the house from 9.30 to 11:20 A. M., or thereabouts. Left, taking horse car, and stopped at the corner of Pleasant and Second streets, and got to Mr. Borden’s house about or near twelve o’clock. Saw a number of persons around the house, and was told that Mr. and Mrs. Borden was killed. That was the first I knew of their deaths.'
'Where do you live when at home?' 'I live at South Dartmouth, have been here about two years. I lived in the West for about twenty years. (Came back two years ago.)' 'Have you any idea who did this?' 'I cant see who could do this; do not know that he has an enemy in the world.' 'Have you seen, or have you heard Bridget or Lizzie say that they had seen anyone around who they suspected?' 'No, I have not.'
Mr. Morse afterwards asked if I suspected that the murderer could have been concealed in the house last night. I replied that I did not. Then I said that he might have been in the house, but could not see how he could have been there without some of them seeing him. He said it is very strange that this should be done in the day time, and right in the heart of the city. It put him in mind of the Nathan murder which was twenty or twenty five years ago. In that case they never found the murderer."
(Message last edited Feb-9th-04 3:10 PM.)
YES, that is one way to interpret this fact (I agree with this).
It is also possible that with the excitement of a visitor, somebody forgot to undo the locks.
Circumstantial evidence can often point two ways. Sherlock Holmes story of a stick that may point in one direction, but also another.
Thanks for reminding me that the door had been opened twice that morning. So the deadbolt lock had been opened earlier!
The custom (like many today) was to use the deadbolt lock at night when everyone was home. Nobody could pick this kind of lock! But somebody UNFAMILIAR with the custom (or perhaps angry about something) did lock the deadbolt.
My opinion or guess is that the front door was unlocked for WSB to sneak in while everyone was saying goodbye to Uncle John in the back. (This was for a secret meeting between Andy and WSB.)
YES, those are all reasonable replies. But IF Lizzie did Abby, then why not unlock the door afterwards? Ninety minutes is plenty of time.
"Everyone... in the back" refers to Bridget and Andrew only and excludes Lizzie and Abby according to Bridget's & Morse's testimonies.
How about saying 1/2 of everybody from now on?
Seams like I made i misstake, I thougt the milk was left outside the front door. Thanks Kat.
My misstake changes my point of wive a bit.
But the front door should been opend once anyway. Iam not at home so I dont have Lincons book in front of me, but i will look it up when i come home!
As always, Kat, your industry and patience are infinite. A few things struck me for the first time while rereading the passage about Lizzie, Bridget, and Morse's initial statements.
1) Lizzie is quoted throughout as saying "Bridget," not "Maggie." Did she use the usual name for some reason, or did the police change her wording to avoid more confusion than there already was?
2) The man Lizzie describes as arguing with father sounds as if he might be the man mentioned in Rebello, who wanted to rent part of the Borden Building as a dance hall. Andrew refused because the building was near the home and would likely keep them awake. (I just tried to locate the full story, but could not find any more mention than that a dance hall on the third floor would not be "the thing." Am I dreaming this or recalling some other source?
3) For a man who comes home unprepared to find a murder scene, Morse certainly has his story down pat. Again, it may be the effect of hasty note taking, but Morse seems never to hesitate or backtrack. He also is ready with another case to compare it to. Does anyone know about the Nathan case he refers to? If it was unsolved, he might be trying to direct police to seek the crazed unknown killer from outside the house. (He also asks about possible concealment.)
--Lyddie
(Message last edited Feb-9th-04 10:02 PM.)
The story of the Nathan murder, or at least Pearson's version of it, is a chapter in Studies In Murder, pgs.123-162, called 'The Twenty-Third Street Murder".
This is a common book and easily inter-library loaned.
Benjamin Nathan was a rich, elderly gentleman who was beaten to death in his sleep in his own home in NYC. One of his sons was immediately suspected of killing him for financial gain. It's easy to see why the parallels would occur to Morse. In a further parallel with the Borden case, the son was tried and acquitted in a blaze of publicity and then lived the rest of his life under a cloud of suspicion. The murder was never officially solved.
There's also an account of the case in Stephen Birmingham's "The Grandees" (a history of the great Jewish families of America).
(Message last edited Feb-10th-04 12:03 AM.)
When you really think about it-- it is rather unfair. Look at the Ramseys-- They are highly suspected and yet there is no evidence to even call for an arrest. Respected people like John Walsh have come out and stated support for them. I bought the paperback "crimes that haunt us" which includes a Lizzie section-- as well as a ramsey one. I have not read anything in it past the Lizzie one though. I plan to.
(Message last edited Feb-10th-04 12:05 AM.)
The front page story of the April 2001 Lizzie Borden Quarterly is on the Nathan murder case. It's titled "John Morse's Recollection of the Nathan Murder" and is written by none other than Leonard Rebello.
Lydia, I believe the dance hall story was about a building that Andrew once talked about erecting on the corner of Spring St. I can research it later if you wish.
In 40 Whacks (Kent) page 101, it states that JVM was reading a newspaper when Brigitte came down that morning...
Is this accepted fact? If so-- Was it a delivered paper? Did the papers come early in the morning as they do now-- and would JVM have opened the front door to get it?
If the milk came to the back door one colud think that also the paper did so....
But in the testomni JVM says that he got to the sitting room directly after he got up and did not leave the room before breakfast.
It is not a qutestion about any paper to JVM. But should it not be a paper, and to wich door did it come?
(Message last edited Feb-10th-04 2:45 PM.)
That's interesting, Audrey. I wonder why Kent (101) suggests that Morse was in the dining room reading the paper? The phrase in Kent makes it look as that was part of Bridget's timeline. But according to Bridget's testimony (trial) she says she didn't see Morse that morning until he sat down to breakfast with Andrew and Abby. She claimed not to know where he was up until that point.
I did a quick word search of John's Inquest and Trial testimony and can't find anything about him saying he read the paper before breakfast, either.
After reading Sullivans Testimonie (one more time...) i cant find antthing about a paper at all.
So....
...did the Bordens have a morning paper at all?
...to wich door did the paper come if the hade one?
...who got the paper that morning if there was one?
...were did mr Kent get his information? His own mind?
So now got got some new questions to find answer...
AHA! I found our previous discussion about Andrew's paper:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archive0602/LB/ArchiveLBAndyPap.htm
I guess we didn't decide anything, tho.
The gist is that Lizzie had been asked to address some wrappers.
These may be wrappers which cover the newspaper and they are given to the post office to put the paper in.
Also, Morse could have been reading Wednesdays paper if Andrew only collected his Thursdays paper Thursday morning from the Post Office..
I think there is another discussion about this?
(Message last edited Feb-10th-04 4:03 PM.)
Yes... those wrappers.
This leads me to believe that the papers did not come home delivery like they do today.
I have no doubts that the Bordens would keep past issues of the paper or that JVM would be interested in reading past issues of the paper. He would not have been in FR when they came out and would be interested in "catching up".
The past post and Kat's idea of a folded paper is very good-- especially when one thinks of the thinness of the old papers-- particularly a daily versus a weekly or Sunday.
As far as delivery (if it was delivered) I would think it would have been flung towards the front door from the other side of the fence.
As per timelines-- etc. It is SO frustrating! It is next to impossible to know what to KNOW as fact! One account has Brigitte eating in the kitchen-- yet she states she sat in Andrew's chair and on and on and on!
(Message last edited Feb-10th-04 4:23 PM.)
Kat says a lot of good things here.... But the most importent here must be the this part!
"Did Andrew have his paper delivered or did he pick it up at the Post Office?
In the Inquest, pg.66, Lizzie says when she got up Thursday morning Andrew was reading the paper."
If it was Wednesdays paper we woluld think that Andrew had alreday read it by then.
But if audrey is rigth about the paper being delivered to the front door, who got it? Who opend the front door?
Morse sholud not have the keys, Sullivan says nothing about it, Lizzie was asleep. I colud have been Abby or Andrew.
But why doenst the police ask someone about this? It sounds real importnent to me, sence i think the locking of the front door i a real key in the mystery of the muders.
But if Abby or Andrew GOT the paper and unlocked the front door that colud be the answer to that no know knows about this.
Can I be on the rigth track here???
(Well maybe Iam just stuck on the idea that the front door HAD TO BE unlocked i the morning...)
I have no proof, but I doubt that there was home delivery in those days. There was not even home delivery of mail, as some posted here. Just a block from the Main St intersection would have sellers there.
IF the paper was an afternoon paper, as most were IMO, then the question is moot. It could be yesterday's newspaper, as JVM was quite busy the day before.
I think Andrew got The Providence paper.
That should be easy to figure out if it was a morning paper or not.
Jimmy, the thing is- that Lizzie and Emma say Lizzie opens the front door in the mornings. Lizzie doesn't usually come down before 9 a.m. In fact sometimes it is later. So if Andrew or Abby fetched in a morning paper, earlier than 9 or 9:30, then they used the side door.
I don't see a reason why the elder Bordens would wait for Lizzie to get up before they got their paper-
So, it either was picked up by Andrew at the P.O., or it was an afternoon paper, or they got it themselves from exiting and entering the screen door.
That leaves out the front door being opened before 9 or 9:30.
Unless there was a man who came to the door at 9, or a note came.
These are not usual occurrences upon which to count, but Thursday it is possible.
Ok, I guess it means that my "hope" to the front door beeing unlocked that morning stands to the witness who saw a man knock on the door that morning. I will look it up in Lincons book as soon as i come home (before the weekend).
And if the front door wasnt unlocked in the morning we come back to Kats question, "Was it a plan by Lizzie?".
If Lizzie had opend the front door she wolud had said so to the police i guess, but if someone else opend it for a stranger outside - then Lizzies job to unlock the front door was already done. Rigth?
(Lincons story is that Lizzien opend the door to the stranger and got the mysterius note, but why not tell the police about it it that was true? If Lincon is rigth about the front door it HAD to been Abby who unlocked it)
The problem is, if someone WAS at the door, why did not Sullivan, Morse or Andrew hear it?
It's been established somewhere that Andrew's newspaper of choice was The Providence Journal. But I can't remember where that information came from.
Just surmising here.... The excerpts below are from a site called History Buff. They seem to indicate that the Providence Journal was the late edition of the Providence paper, and the Providence News was the morning edition. If this is so -- then Andrew may well have been reading the previous day's edition (the Journal) -- and no one would have had to open a door to take in the paper on the morning of the 4th.
"The newspapers with the best and most complete coverage of the events surrounding the murders at Fall River included the "Fall River Herald," "Fall River Globe,"Fall River News," Providence (Rhode Island) Dispatch," "Providence Journal and News," "Boston Globe," and the "New Bedford Journal."
...........
"The newspaper to report it first had a great advantage over its rivals. Providence, Rhode Island is located some 15 miles west of Fall River and its local papers covered the case with great enthusiasm. This was particularly true of the "Providence News" (morning edition) and the "Providence Evening Journal"....
http://www.historybuff.com/library/refborden.html
In the source material we have access to, there is no witness to a man coming to the door Thursday morning other than Lizzie's earliest statement to Fleet.
One author claims it was Victoria Lincoln's grandfather, Leontine, bringing a suitor to see Lizzie!
Thanks Diana!
For whatever it's worth, Lincoln herself found the idea that it was her grandfather at the front door laughable. She said that her grandfather was definitely not the type of man who would play "matchmaker", especially at 9:00 AM on a weekday.
I still dont have Lincons book in front of me, but i do remember so much that the witness to the man in front of the front door in the morning not was Lizzie or her grandfather.
It was a younger man who got the door in his face, wich makes me belive that Lizzie was not the one to open the door (if it really happend).
What suprises me is that no one else knows about this witness. If this person do exist the defens sholud had used the story, righth?
(Message last edited Feb-11th-04 7:12 AM.)
There is this paragraph in Lincoln (page 79, paperback) about 3/4 of the way through chapter 1:
"At approximately the same time-- "around nine" --another observer saw a young man go to the Bordens' front door and ring the bell. The door was opened and quickly slammed in his face-- by Andrew, it has long been assumed, though this was reported by a neighbor on the same side of the street, not a vantage point for seeing into the Bordens' hall. (The assumption has rested on the fact that under normal conditions Andrew was the only likely door-slammer in the household.)"
I believe Lincoln speculates that it was Uncle John who sent the messenger to the door with a note as an excuse to have Abby leave. It's been a long time since I read Lincoln so correct me if that's not right.
Then on page 88:
"But, as even John Morse knew, Lizzie would not have slammed that door so in the face of a young man carrying a message unless she was in a very strange state indeed. It was not her way; her servants, both male and female, were so loyal throughout her lifetime just because it was not her way with those who work for a living. Even mildly upset, Lizzie would have thanked a messenger nicely and stood in the doorway for a moment making a few vague, friendly remarks about the heat, or something of the sort."
Thanks Harry, thats the part I was thiniking of.
Nows the question, who is this "another observer", i cant remeber that Lincon tell us that.
But if this story is true, the front door WAS unlocked by someone in the morning and locked by someone later. That someone could be an outsider who dinet know how the door used to be locked.
So if this story is true, one could thin (with what Lizzie and Sullivan said later) that it was a thrid part in the house at some time that we dont know about.
As I said before, i think this is a real Key part in the case.
So if someone knows who this "another observer" is, please tell me (rigth now iam reading the whole trail dokument to try to find this person...)
Thanks. Kat, I've got the book upstairs. It's been so long since I've read it, I've forgotten about it. I'll have to dig it out tonight.
--Lyddie
Thank you, so much, Harry! If you can find the dance hall item, I would really appreciate it. I just feel sure that Andrew expressed distress over the noise that would waft toward the second street house. If I find it myself, I'll let you know.
--Lyddie
AR Brown's story was that this was a confederate (William ? Bassett) who also drove the buggy parked in front of the house. His original work was cut from 1100 pages down to 320 for publication; it undoubtedly explains his reason for this choice. WS Bassett's daughter died a few months later, and he suggests this was the reason for the call away for Abby. Sounds better than nothing?
Lyddie, it's in Rebello (pg 26+) for one, quoting part of a column in the FR Globe, dated Aug. 19, 1892, titled "Reminiscences of the Late Andrew J. Borden":
"It was a hobby of Mr. Borden's later life to make Second Street a business highway to run parallel with Main Street. With this end in view and while discussing another matter of interest to Second Street people, Mr. Borden asked the writer's opinion of the wisdom of erecting a substantial brick building at the corner of Second and Spring Streets.
I could secure tenants readily for two floors, but it wouldn't be just the thing in my mind to leave a third floor for hall or dancing purposes. Second Street will eventually become an overflow business highway, but it won't be in my lifetime and dances wouldn't be just the thing I'd want around me in my sleep."
In 1892 Spring St. stopped when it reached Second St. There were only 2 possible corners. One of them was occupied by St. Mary's Church so it would have to be the other one. According to the map on page 563 in Rebello, that corner (103 Second St.) was occupied by a paint shop and residence of John and Sarah Gray.
Opposite where Spring ran into Second was an orchard and a house occupied by 2 priests from St Marys. Maybe Andrew meant to buy the orchard property and erect it there.
Boy, that makes 3 orchards in the immediate area. The Chagnon one, the one by the Bowen-Miller house and now this one opposite Spring St. No shortage of fruit on that street.
I remember one of the books saying that this area was formerly part of the Buffington (?) farm, it was split up for development in the 1830s or so. Haven't we all seen this over the last 50 years?
"AR Brown's story was that this was a confederate (William ? Bassett) who also drove the buggy parked in front of the house."
Victoria Lincon also talks about a duggy parked in front of the house. Sholud be intresting to know wich person who was the witness here (I will look it up who Lincon talks about when I come home tomorrow). Sure means something that both Brown and Lincon points to this buggy???
(Message last edited Feb-11th-04 4:40 PM.)
OOPS, didn't see Harry sorry..
Copy/Pasted from my Archive collection of Andrew Borden comments:
Rebello, 26+
"Real Estate / The Market Inactive at Present / Reminiscences of the Late Andrew J. Borden," Fall River Daily Globe, Friday, August 19, 1892: 7.
"The killing of Andrew J. Borden removed an always interesting figure in real estate circles. He never made a purchase of land for which he was not ready to pay cash down. It mattered not whether the purchase money was $1,000 or $20,000, he invariably drew his check for the amount or walked with the dealer to the bank and saw that the accounts were squared at the time of the passing of the deed.
Some months ago it happened to be the duty of the Globe to reflect some sharp criticisms on the character of the improvements that were being made on his then newly acquired property on South Main Street. Meeting the writer a couple of weeks afterward he bade sit down in a store not many rods distant from his home and proceeded to give reasons why he thought his course was a proper one.
At the conclusion of a long and deliberate conversation he exacted a promise that nothing should be said of his opinions in the papers that would in any way be taken as a justification to the public of what he considered to be his own personal and private affairs. He held that it was not wisdom on an old man's part to erect costly buildings in a section where he could not see substantial return at once, and it was very unwise for an old man to mortgage property and hire money, if his whole life policy had been against such a procedure.
He would not say that the policy of turning money was an entirely bad one but he had found in his successful business career that the man who didn't borrow lived the most contented life. Consequently, he did not propose to change his business habits to conform with the public opinion, although he was willing to concede that much of the criticism was warranted by superficial conditions.
It was a hobby of Mr. Borden's later life to make Second Street a business highway to run parallel with Main Street. With this end in view and while discussing another matter of interest to Second Street people, Mr. Borden asked the writer's opinion of the wisdom of erecting a substantial brick building at the corner of Second and Spring Streets.
I could secure tenants readily for two floors, but it wouldn't be just the thing in my mind to leave a third floor for hall or dancing purposes. Second Street will eventually become an overflow business highway, but it won't be in my lifetime and dances wouldn't be just the thing I'd want around me in my sleep.
There was a great deal more of a similar nature given out in an hour's conversation and it came out plain that Andrew J. Borden was always a 'safe' man even though his business methods were not of the hurrying rushing Americanized type of the present day."
(Message last edited Feb-11th-04 11:34 PM.)
Thank you to both William and Kat for finding me the right page about the dance hall so quickly! You are dynamos! Did Andrew have any rental property open at the time of the murders. This statement is clearly about a building not yet erected, but he practically says "Over my dead body!" Of course, Lizzie might have known about this exchange and woven it into a fabrication as she was so apt to do!
--Lyddie
I was thinking last night that since Andrew was so sick Wednesday that he didn't go into town for his meeting, if the paper had to be picked up, he wouldn't have done it that day.
Maybe Morse brought a paper.
Lizzie read old magazines etc., maybe the menfolk did too.
I'm trying to figure out why Andrew would get the Providence paper when he was so interested in real estate in Fall River. Would he get that info just through word-of-mouth?
I recalled that Mrs. Churchill had seen Andrew standing outside by the side steps around 9.
Maybe if a man came he would see Andrew out there and approach him there?
(It's around the right time)
I'm including when Mrs. Churchill saw Bridget, around 10, throwing water on one window.
Inquest
Churchill
126+
Q. Had you seen any of the household, or anybodyelse in the yard?
A. I saw Mr. Borden I should think about nine o’clock, the hour he usually goes down street. I was in my kitchen doing kitchen work. I happened to see him out in the yard.
Q. You saw him going out?
A. Yes, he was going as if he had been out in the yard, out by the barn, coming out around the back steps.
Q. He went out on the street?
A. I dont know. When I looked at him he was standing there by the steps as if he was headed for the street, to the west.
Q. You did not see him go to the street?
A. No Sir, I was tending my work, I did not look after he went by.
Q. Did you see any other member of the household?
A. No Sir. I saw the girl later washing the windows.
Q. How much later was it she was out washing windows?
A. It might have been ten o’clock. I cant tell.
Q. Washing windows on the outside?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How long should you say she was out there, that you saw her washing windows?
A.. I cant tell. I stepped into my bed room for something, I saw her throwing water up on to the parlor window.
Q. She was washing the parlor window then?
A. Yes Sir.
--Note also that Fleet's rendition of what he saysLizzie said did not specify the front door.
I don't think Andrew was seen downtown until approximately 9:30 (Hart203/Burrell204Prelim.), so that if a man came there that morning it might account for the time delay from when Andrew appeared to leave and when he actually was first sighted in the city center.
However (There are always "Howevers") I believe the newspaper says Andrew was shaved during that time, but we don't have the witness.
He also mailed Lizzie's letter some time that morning.
(Message last edited Feb-12th-04 1:11 AM.)
Exactly Kat....
She states she saw him coming from the rear of the property. Perhaps he took his meeting in the barn? (If he had a clandestine meeting at all) This would have afforded him privacy as well as leaving the family to believe he had left for downstreet.
There was so much secrecy and sneaking about by that family it is nearly impossible to unravel it all.
PS-- Has anyone else ever found it odd that Andrew would pay for a shave???
(Message last edited Feb-12th-04 1:17 AM.)
Audrey, that never occurred to me, but it is very odd that Andrew would pay for a shave, especially since he really didn't have to have his entire face shaved, just his cheeks above his beard. Maybe he usually shaved himself but decided to have a barber do it this time because he still felt weak and trembling from his vomiting spell. I know that when I'm sick, shaving is the last thing I want to do.
I'll bet he didn't leave a tip!
Maybe he decided the name "cutthroat razor" might give somebody ideas, so got rid of it!
--Lyddie
I was just thinking that when I was a little girl, my mom would bring me with her to the beauty parlor occasionly, it was the place to catch up on all the latest news and gossip. Perhaps going for a shave was Andrew's way of catching up on all the local news and gossip in Fall River? He didn't belong to any of the men's clubs in town that we know of, so, this may have been his way getting together with the boys and talking sports or politics or what-have-you?
Maybe he went to the barber shop for a shave because
he was older & his hands might have shook? Or it could
have just been a luxury to him -- it certainly seems
like a pampering event......
I think it was more commonplace for men to go to the barbershop for a shave in that era.
Here's an excerpt from a site discussing barbershop collectibles:
"Toward the middle 19th century, the shaving mug, began to supplant barber bowls. Used with a brush for lathering, these wide handled mugs were made out of redware, stoneware, pewter, tin, silverplate, porcelain, pottery, and glass. By far, the most collectible of these are a line of personalized heavy-walled porcelain mugs that appeared in American following the Civil War. Beards went out of fashion. Straight razor shaving at home could be perilous. Men began flocking to barbershops every day. .... Partly as a marketing ploy, and more importantly, for hygienic reasons to stop the outbreak of eczema (barber itch), American barbers began supplying their regular customers with their own mug and brush."
http://www.antiquetalk.com/column99.htm
But you have to go to 'the books' to find a source that Andrew had his own mug at the barbershop. In Trial of Lizzie Borden Pearson writes:
"The time between 9.55 an 10.20 was probably spent at a barber's, where Mr. Borden was shaved. The barber, for many years thereafter treasured and regarded with awe-stricken veneration the shaving mug, inscribed in letters of gold: 'Andrew J. Borden'." (page 133)
Individual soap cups also prevent the spread of any communicable diseases prevalent in that day.
I once read that a man should never shave in any tropical country, because of the possibility of infection from the many insects.
Note the political aspects of Andy's beard. Partly shaved, for the new fashion, partly bearded for the old styles. Note that most men did shave during Revolution and just up to the 1840s (?).
Thanks, Diana!
Har, do you know where the barber might be located?
There actually is a gap in Andrew's timeline according to the Preliminary Hearing between seeing Evertt Cook at The First Nat.l' Bank until 9:55 and arriving at Clegg's store at 6 N. Main around 10:20, staying 9 minutes, until 10:29. If a shave was on the way to the old Clegg Store location, it's possible.
Then that might infer Andrew spent that first 20+ minute gap at the Post Office mailing Lizzie's letter to Emma which was on his way downtown.
(Message last edited Feb-13th-04 4:03 PM.)
Kat, Pierre LeDuc's barber shop was located at 5 South Main. That's the same side of the street as the A J. Borden building, which I believe was #37-41. The map in Rebello (pg 566) shows the barber shop but it looks too far up the street to be #5. The map is a bit distorted. It was nearer to the corner of Pocasset St. I thought I remembered reading somewhere that the barber shop was on the second floor.
That photo I posted of Baker's drug store must have been just about where Leduc's shop was.
(Message last edited Feb-13th-04 4:09 PM.)
Hoffman suggests that Andrew went for his "daily shave" after he left the National Union Bank.
Both Hoffman (204) and Brown (59) credit the Fall River Globe for the report that Andrew visited the barber the morning of the murders.
The map of Andrew's last walk, pg. 566 (Thanks Har!) and it's legend, shows Andrew walking to the barber shop first, then the post office, then showing up at the Union Savings Bank where Hart(Prelim.203) saw him around 9:30.
That would be in the first half hour after leaving home around 9 a.m.
Then we still have a gap from 9:55 a.m. to 10:20 a.m.
At 10:20 Andrew saw Clegg at his old store and left about 10:29, going south toward Cleggs new store location. Andrew was noted then at about 10:30 by Shortsleeves (Prelim230).
The 25 minute gap is after leaving Everett Cook, First Nat'l Bank (58 N. Main), and before arriving at 6 N. Main.
The address of 58 N. Main seems to be the outer limit of Andrew's walk, before he turns and comes back toward his town interests. This is where he is missing time.
Thanks Diana. I have a notation that Owen Haskell's book, Sherlock Holmes delves into this, pg. 39. Anyone have this handy?
Good research Kat. That's quite a time gap to be accounted for.
I noticed that when Andrew left the last bank he crossed the street to the east side of North Main. Clegg spots him, calls to him, and Andrew crosses back.
Where was Andrew headed before Clegg called to him? Home? Clegg in his trial testimony said they had a conversation but he doesn't say what it was about. I presume it was about getting the new store ready. Andrew did cross over to the side of the street where Cleggs new store was on before he was called by Clegg so he may have been on his way to check the progress anyway.
Kat:
There is about a page and a half about the barber shop in Haskell's book.
I think the material has been manufactured, but that's okay, it's supposed to be a work of fiction.
Thanks Bill. I had only borrowed it - don't have a copy.
I did find, in Casebook, pg. 23+, an article from the Fall River Daily Herald, August 4, 1892:
"SCHOCKING CRIME
_____
A Venerable Citizen and His Aged Wife
_____
Mr. and Mrs. Andrew Borden Lose Their Lives
________
AT THE HANDS OF A DRUNKEN PARK HAND.
_______
Police Searching Actively for the Fiendish Murderer.
_______
...A clue was obtained, however. A Portuguese whose name nobody around the house seemed to know, has been employed on one of the Swansey farms owned by Mr. Borden. He had a talk with his employer and asked for the wages due him. Mr. Borden told the man he had no money with him, to call later. If anything more passed between the men it cannot be learned. At length the Portuguese departed and Mr. Borden soon afterward started down town. His first call was to Peter Leduc's barber shop, where he was shaved about 9:30 o'clock. He then dropped into the Union Bank to transact some business and talked with Mr. Hart, treasurer of the savings bank, of which Mr. Borden was president. As nearly as can be learned after that he went straight home."...
(Message last edited Feb-14th-04 6:35 PM.)
What about the neighbor who saw Andrew coming from the rear of the property after it was reported he went downstreet?
Looking at Brown's account which he says is from the Globe, and comparing with the Herald- it probably was substantially the same account.
Actually I have a notation on my Andrew Timeline- that Burrell gave hearsay that he had heard Andrew had returned to his location-Union Savings Bank.*
This could be within the missing time.
However, the barber visit, if true, was more likely on the way into town because of it's location and practicality. But- a case can be made that because of that same location, it would have been out of his way into town, but on his way back home.
*These are from my notes. Anyone can verify with source who has Prelim.
Could you please be more specific in your question?
Kat, does anyone know the newspaper's source for the argument between Andrew and the Portugeses laborer? If it came from Lizzie or Bridget, it would surely have come up again. Is Andrew supposed to have talked to the fellers in the barbershop about it? If so, why do we hear no more about it? (Or is there more?) Do you suppose it was idle gossip. At that time the Portugese were at the bottom of the social ladder and most likely to be suspected by the community. If it is true, I doubt the poor man ever dared go back to collect!
--Lyddie
Kat....
I think I may be hallucinating!
We have a post here somewhere-- I think! (I can not find it for the life of me) We discussed the neighbor who stated she saw Andrew come from the rear of the property some time that morning-- As if he had been in the barn and we speculated perhaps he took a clandestine meeting there. I promise I remember this in good faith-- I have looked for the post till I am cross-eyed. I can not find it. Either I imagined the whole post or I have gone blind...
You are right. It is Mrs. Churchill in her Inquest:
126
Q. Had you seen any of the household, or anybodyelse in the yard?
A. I saw Mr. Borden I should think about nine o’clock, the hour he usually goes down street. I was in my kitchen doing kitchen work. I happened to see him out in the yard.
Q. You saw him going out?
A. Yes, he was going as if he had been out in the yard, out by the barn, coming out around the back steps.
Q. He went out on the street?
A. I dont know. When I looked at him he was standing there by the steps as if he was headed for the street, to the west.
Q. You did not see him go to the street?
A. No Sir, I was tending my work, I did not look after he went by.
--My impression is that she saw Andrew standing by the side steps about 9 a.m. That was the time he supposedly left.
If he had been in the back yard, he would have seen Bridget vomitting, but she didn't see him.
Very curious.
Well, if you stand vomitting i guess you dont pay so much attension on what happens around you.
That is a fair statement Jimmy-- But (If he was there and he did see her being sick) would he have ignored this? Would not Victorian gallantry at least have called for him to notify someone in the house she may need the cure all in all bad situations, a glass of water? Something?
Would he see Brigitte being sick and just shrug it off?
I think the point is that SHE didn't see him, too busy vomiting.
No one could ask Andrew if he saw her.
Preliminary
Bridget
9
Q. So the last time you saw him before he went out, he had his house coat on?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You say you did not see him go out?
A. No Sir.
Q. You do not know who let him out, or whether he went out the back way or not?
A. I do not know.
Q. Did you go out of the kitchen anywhere?
A. I was out in the back yard.
Q. What were you doing out there?
A. I was out in the back yard; I was not feeling very well, and I was out there.
Q. How long did you stay out there?
A. I might be out there ten or fifteen minutes.
Q. Were you at the water closet?
A. No Sir.
Q. I do not want to ask you any questions you do not want to answer about it.
A. I was sick to my stomach, and was out in the yard, and I was vomiting.
Q. Where in the yard were you?
A. Out near the pear tree.
Q. You went out there to vomit?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know whether Mr. Morse went off at that time or not?
A. He was gone off then.
Q. How do you know?
A. I know he was.
Q. When you came back, did you see Mrs. Borden?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see her after you came back?
A. Not until nine o'clock.
Q. When you went out in the back yard, was it before Mr. Morse went off?
A. No Sir, after he went off.
Q. How soon after he went off?
A. Maybe ten or five minutes; I cannot tell.
Q. When you came back again, where did you go then?
A. Into the kitchen.
Q. Where did you see Mrs. Borden after that?
A. After washing my dishes.
Q. Did you wash your dishes before you went out in the yard sick, or after you came back?
A. Yes Sir.
--Bridget says she was outside vomitting for 10 or 15 minutes. A person does not really vomit that long. They vomit and catch their breath and wait a bit to test the waters and then if they are going to vomit again, they do. They might vomit for 20 seconds or so, and stop again. Get their bearings, get a breath, pause and wait, until the next onslaught.
I do doubt Bridget "vomitted" for 10 minutes, let alone 15.
In the in-between time, i think she got her bearings.
She very likely looked around to see if she had been observed. Vomitting is a rather private function.
She probably vomitted within 2 minutes or so and spent the other 8 minutes resting.
You'd think the first thing she would do is get something to drink and then check her appearance.
Bridget says this was after Morse left (8:45) and probably during the time Andrew left (approx. 9), but then she came in, finished her dishe(s) and saw Abby at 9.
The timing must be a bit off here, especially if Mrs. Churchill saw Andrew around 9 outside.
If Andrew had been outside just before 9, then he would have heard Bridget, at the least?
--This might be open to interpretation?
(Message last edited Feb-16th-04 2:08 AM.)
Seeing Bridget outside like that and Andrew probably outside at the same time and in my pic he is looking at her- you don't suppose they had a tryst do you? Wouldn't they be seen by someone? Like from the house windows?
So Andrew is after Bridget and when he's killed Bridget doesn't talk if she thinks Lizzie did it because she is relieved?
(Message last edited Feb-16th-04 3:38 AM.)
Great post Kat and nice picture.
Yes, there is something askew about the times.
If Bridget went out 5 or 10 minutes after Morse left (8:45) then that would make the time range 8:50 to 8:55.
Then she said she was out there 10 to 15 minutes. Adding that estimate to the time range the approximate time she came back in would be 9:00 to 9:10.
Granted all the times are estimates but it's fun to speculate.
Great picture, Kat. I think along those lines too that after being sick Bridget would want to clean up and check her appearance. Do you think its possible that she used the tap in the barn to clean up at and didn't mention it as it didn't seem too important? I mean at the very least to rinse her mouth out. Bridget doesn't mention doing that, but, I know I would have wanted to after just being sick like that.
We have all thrown up. What do most of us do if someone is present during this? We try to hide or avoid them and wish they would leave. (With the notable exception of a very dear friend, spouse or other loved one who may be there to offer aid, hold your hair away from your face, get cold glasses of water-- etc.)After wards we want to wash our face with a cool cloth and have a cold drink of water, as well as catch our breath and reorient ourselves as Kat states. I can not imagine Andrew offering comfort to anyone who was being sick.
Also-- Kat makes a good point of discussion. Perhaps Andrew was a bit of a randy old sod who liked looking at Brigittte. Remember-- when Andrew was young the sight of a woman's ankle was enough to send a man in to fits of lust.
It is odd that Abby never had a child. She was older when she married him but I imagine she was still menstruating and in her child bearing years. (I am Catholic with 6 children-- I can tell the rhythm method does not work!) I wonder if A&A had a sexual relationship at all! In those days women were not meant to enjoy sex and men were not educated and few cared about women's sexual desires and needs.... Although Andrew showed some fondness for Abby when he bought her the half house allowing her sister a place to live-- it really is the only evidence he ever did much for her. Marrying Abby was far cheaper than hiring a housekeeper/nanny to help him with his home. By all accounts he got the best end of the bargain. From descriptions of Abby's cleaning activities and standards the house was immaculate and Abby did her part to see to this.
If Andrew was a (and I hate to use the word so subjectively) pervert-- it must have been a very unpleasant circumstance for poor old Brigitte... She liked Abby and this must have been a very bad situation for her. Ask any woman who had a brother, BF, husband, etc of someone she cared for making passes at her....
Mrs. Churchill thought Andrew was coming from the barn area when she saw him. It seemed to be her impression.
I wanted to see where the pear tree was in relation to the barn and back yard. That's why I got out the picture.
Andrew and Bridget obviously were out there at the same time.
Maybe it was just recently that Andrew was after a 'slap & a tickle'.
If he went out there to grab a kiss (in the barn?)- and If it sickened Bridget, she might retch.
(Message last edited Feb-16th-04 3:48 PM.)
I've had that cross my mind, too, Kat. The composite is hilarious: it looks like something out of Monty Python. If you animated it, you could have Andrew jumping with lecherous glee until the moment when Bridget discreetly hurls.
Notice the continuing theme of grossout all over the windfallen pears: first Andrew's slop bucket and now Bridget's vomit! EEEWWWW
--Lyddie
Glad to see you are exploring other causes for retching other than mutton broth! However, I do not think you have touched on what I think may have been the real cause of Bridget's nausea.
Bridget was in the house at the time of Mrs Borden's demise, was she not? It is a fact that made her a possible suspect in the minds of many people.
Now try some role play, putting yourself in her very Irish shoes. If you had knowledge of a murder and a dead body lying on the floor under the same roof. Perhaps, even being required to do a little tidying up!
Enough to turn my stomach!
you make a good point about time and vomitting. can you imagine vomitting for even five minutes literally?
but let me go ahead and develop the sordid story you hint at -- bridget was never the slightest bit sick. abby would not have even asked her to wash those windows had she said or appeared to be sick. radin made a big issue (a big question) about bridget's missing time that morning. after morse was clearly gone, bridget followed andrew to the barn for a literal roll in the hay. perhaps this was a morning routine. (who was it claimed to have seen an imprint in the hay?) the "style" of this copulation (according to my current vulgar image) would be accomplished well within the 15-min time frame. i guess this is more andrew-bashing, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least. on the other hand, i don't guess i'd be exactly surprised if bridget enjoyed the arrangement.
of course, i'm fictionalizing or speculating here, i know -- but consider the apparent alternative -- that andrew went back to use the privy before leaving for town. while bridget vomitted. then if she used the water from the barn that would put her near andrew, wouldn't it?
funny how in the movie they have bridget begging mrs. borden to let her put off the window-washing -- and the old bitch just goes up the stairs and ignores her.
good point haulover...
I always have had the impression that Abby was kind to Bridget.
I do wonder why she would make her wash those windows soon after being ill.
Yes, Gramma! She might have been afraid someone would spot her mess and wanted to predate it. Also, there is mention of another non-blood stain of yellowish color round a door frame. Could that be partially cleansed vomit later dumped in the yard?
--Lyddie
I think it was the bad mutton, but good points here to think about.
The psychic Janedoherty.com said she felt abuse going on the in cellar. My first thought was that if true, it was with Bridgett.
Please note, I did not say it was from Bridget doing it but rather her being told to help clean up.
Personal opinion:
Things to think about.....
The door was locked so Andrew could not walk in and surprise them while tidying up.
Can you think of a better reason for Lizzie to be up the front stairs other than committing the murder herself?
There was more than one "domestic" in the house to help tidy up. (Bridget's friends had come by to go shopping. Names were Nora Donahue and Maggie Jonnsen and they worked for the Anthonys. They hitched a ride on the meat wagon to second street.) Maggie......hmmmmm.
Lizzie went to the barn but not to fetch anything. She had something else to do there.
Window washing was to prevent neighbors or passers-by from seeing the activity within. Abby never assigned Bridget to it. She never knew it was done. She was dead.
Bridget never took a nap!
The fire in the stove was started when??? For ironing or destruction of evidence of Abby's murder?
What WAS in that little package Andrew put on the mantle?
Gramma
I read that Jane Doherty article too, that part just gives me chills about the abuse in the wood room in the cellar! Jane seems to think that the whole thing was John Morse's doing. I think it would be great to get other psychics' impressions on what happened at the Borden house that day.
Gramma, I think you said on another thread that Thursdays were typical for maids to have off? If so, could that have actually been Bridget's day off (Aug 4th)?
It was, indeed, her day off! That is why she had made plans to go shopping for yard goods. However, a day off did not mean no work! The morning chores had to be done usually before you left. That included breakfast and any other little thing your family might want before you left. It did NOT include washing windows!!! Or any other heavy chore unless you agreed in advance to do it on your day off. Then it would usually go something like this....."Gee, I really want ot get the closets cleaned and I am leaving on Friday. Do you think you could work your day off?" No self respecting domestic who wanted employment would say no! It is NOT my opinion that this occurred at Second Street that morning!
Gramma
Someone jump in & correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Lizzie's suggestion alone that Bridget check out the sale @ Sargent's? Does anyone remember Bridget testifying otherwise? Also, I think there was something somewhere re Bridget said a certain day was her day off. It would certainly be very interesting if this was indeed Thursday!
Well, I found this much --
Bridget, Trial, pg 238 --
...Miss Lizzie came out and said, "There is a cheap sale of dress goods at Sargent's this afternoon, at eight cents a yard." I don't know that she said "this afternoon," but "today." and I said, "I am going to have one.
(Message last edited Feb-17th-04 11:16 PM.)
So, Gramma, do you think that Bridget spent her day off cleaning up evidence for the promise of money? Or do you think it was because she was worried that she would be implicated?
I do recall reading that story about Lizzie's boyfriend being the true murderer, but, don't recall if there was a motive given for it. Was it at Lizzie's behest that he did it or did he just do it and leave her with the mess to clean up?
Bridget was probably screaming scared that her life was over and would have done anything she was told to do. I don't doubt there may have been money given later but it probably was not promised to her. The threat of simply saying she did it probably was enough to get her to comply.
There was a concerted effort to get David out of there and things tidied up a bit (but not too much). Just enough to make sure nothing incriminating was around.
Motive (more like trigger) was the refusal of Andrew to give permission for Lizzie and he to marry.
Gramma
I am as confused as I have ever been in all of my life.....
We are used to sources here. I'm trying to get some, I guess if gramma wil post some or I will keep trying to get something, anything.
I am trying, Kat! (I suppose that could be read two ways! Maybe even three! hahaha)
Gramma
E Radin suggested Bridget as the culprit, since killings by disgruntled employees are so common.
So to is the rarer murder of parents by their daughter's boyfriend.
Do you plan to publish this in the general press? A small circulation magazine is not the best, unless its picked up by general press or TV shows.
Raymond,
I have to write it first! When I get the story down I can decide which route to go and adapt. Right now I want to get what I remember on paper.
Gramma
It is actually more rare for a daughter to personally kill her parents and less rare that she gets her boyfriend to do it.
We had a case in Florida- The Vampire Killings- and the *boyfriend* hammered the parents and the daughter was not charged. It was a group situation but not all participated. There are other cases of boyfriends who did it in Texas, as well.
I do not believe for a moment Lizzie would "get" David to murder her parents for her. Like I said, I believe Abby's murder was a crime of passion, of the moment. I think they were trying to get her to convince Andrew to let them marry and she would have no part of it. In the heat of the moment she apparently said or did something that triggered David and threw him over the edge. Neither David nor Lizzie were stupid. They would have known instantly that Andrew now had to go, too.
My personal opinion is that Lizzie would have fought that idea, trying, at first, to find some other way out. But in the end she knew there was no alternative. At this point she may have still been envisioning it was possible for them to marry and she was resistant to changing that image of the future. Andrew probably was murdered while she was in the barn because I do not think she could have stood being there for that one.
Then she was the one who orchestrated the "get away" and supervised the clean-up. She was almost perfect in that department. Except for the dress and I do not think the blood on that dress was Andrew's or Abby's but in days long before the forensics we have now it would have appeared to be. She knew that and destroyed it out of fear it may be misconstrued. I think the blood was Lizzie's own from a natural (or not so natural) occurance.
Her excuse for the blood was that she "had fleas". Here is where knowledge of all things Victorian comes in. In those days that was a polite way of saying a woman was experiencing "that time of month"
( see, I can be polite, too).
Gramma
I suggest you follow AR Brown's example - see his Acknowledgements - and get help and advice from others on this story.
Of course you alone will be responsible for what you write.
I'm not aware of all this. I don't just read true crime. But when I was young the Charles Starkweather case in Nebraska (?) made all the news, and LIFE magazine. They made a movie in the early 1970s, "Badlands".
Poor Charles had a "low IQ", worked as a trash collector, and was the butt of many, many jokes. One day he just exploded. He killed as many people as he encountered. Captured, Tried, Executed. His grilfriend was just 14 (?), he was just 18 (as I remember offhand).
(Does this remind you of that farmer who killed animals for a living?)
The Tricky-McHenry story implied Lizzie was pregnant. Her menses, verified by the bucket of rags by Dr. Bowen, family physician, means she was not pregnant.
Are you suggesting there was a possibility of an abortion or a misscarriage?
btw: as a group, we have pretty much decided that "fleas" was not a euphemism for menses, but rather the one time it was spoken was in the context of a flea bite by Lizzie. (We looked everwhere. I bet you had not heard that phrase growing up, either?)
Inquest
Lizzie
87
Q. Did you know there was any blood on the skirt you gave them?
A. No, sir.
Q. Assume that there was, can you give any explanation of how it came there, on the dress skirt?
A. No, sir.
Q. Assume that there was, can you suggest any reason how it came there?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you offered any?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever offered any?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you said it came from flea bites?
A. On the petticoats I said there was a flea bite. I said it might have been. You siad [sic] you meant the dress skirt.
Q. I did. Have you offered any explanation how that came there?
A. I told those men that were at the house that I had had fleas; that is all.
Q. Did you offer that as an explanation?
A. I said that was the only explanation that I knew of.
(Message last edited Feb-20th-04 3:09 PM.)
Was it Menses? Yes, Kat, that is what I am implying. I have no proof but it would have been done simply. And guess what they used sometimes for that purpose then!
Gramma
"btw: as a group, we have pretty much decided that "fleas" was not a euphemism for menses, but rather the one time it was spoken was in the context of a flea bite by Lizzie. (We looked everwhere. I bet you had not heard that phrase growing up, either?)"
First of all no one would ever write it down. It was something you didn't talk about and when women did amonst themselves it was in hushed tones. That I did experience.
It was my grandmother who told my mother and I what it meant.
Gramma
We had a phrase passed down from our great grandmother from PA. so some women did talk about it. Or at least name it.
They called it "Falling Off the Roof."
Our mom would ask, "Are you off the roof?"
She lived with her grandmother a good part of her teen years.
Fleas is a myth made up by Lincoln or somebody.
Lizzie really did have fleas. That's probably why she kept her room locked.
I can't imagine what was used "sometimes" for an abortion. Do you know?
The FRHS has some of these personalized shaving mugs.
Gramma
Morphine was sometimes used.
Gramma
I'm not a woman, but the term I overheard was "the curse" (over 30+ yrs ago).
...
This was an inside joke (?) when in some old-time movies the villain yelled "Curses!"
(Message last edited Feb-21st-04 2:56 PM.)
That's interesting!
I wonder how that works?
Was there any intimation made as to how pregnant Lizzie might have been? Maybe morphine might work in early stages?
I think you hit the nail on the head on this one, Kat. Time to do some online surfing.
Gramma
When I was young, girls sometimes said their "friend had showed up."
The Brits used to say they were "on a losing streak." That's why Mick Jagger couldn't get no satisfaction. If memory serves: "She said I'd better come back maybe next week, "'cos, you see, I'm on a losing streak. . . ."
--Lyddie
i've never given lizzie credit for being simply honest when she told bridget she needed a doctor. this pregnancy/abortion idea gives it a potential credibility, doesn't it?
an abortion is hardly emergency surgery...
Did Bowen carry a shank in his bag?
Emma makes direct reference to there not being a "nail" to hang her dress on when she states she urged Lizzie to rid the clothes press of the paint stained dress. Does this mean they had no hangers?
(Message last edited Feb-22nd-04 9:01 PM.)
actually i was thinking of "complications" from the result of something someone else had done to her already.
i've also thought she might have wanted bowen there as soon as possible to verify menstruation. i wouldn't be surprised if she did in fact feel sick enough to want a doctor.
we tend not to think that her immediate desire for him was for a truly medical reason.
Maybe the agitation could have caused a miscarriage? I can believe that better than an abortion under the noses of the police. (But I have trouble believing the pregnancy still.)
--Lyddie
It seems odd she would have or even could have recoverd from an abortion or miscarriage that day without someone noticing...
Wasn't she up and about somewhat? Unlocking the "clothes press" and according to Alice-- checking it more than once after it was searched.
She descended and then climbed 2 flights of stairs that very evening. Regardless as to how far along she was there would be more bleeding versus a regular period. If she was far along enough to KNOW she was pregnant especially. The products we use today are more advanced (nice way to put it) and I can not see how she could have been bleeding like that with nothing more than rags to protect her and wearing a white nightgown.... Unless she had on multiple pairs of drawers...(Now I just "thinking aloud".
If she was ever pregnant... Poor, poor Lizzie! Can you imagine squatting over that chamber pot or going to that dismal cellar 38473754346343 times a day???
I think the morphine would cause birth defects but not spontaneous abortion...
The effects of Morphine, or any opiate for that matter is to cause spontaneous abortion IF it is given early enough, ie. in the first week or two after missing menses. It was not reliable in that department or we would not have had other means of abortion develop! Morphine also was the drug of choice to abate any pain after an abortion done by mechanical means. I am not going to speculate which method was used, only present that the possibility and opportunity did exist.
Gramma