1. "Some Genealogy"
Posted by Kat on Sep-24th-03 at 7:36 AM
It has been claimed twice in Rebello that Anna Howland Borden was not a relative of Lizzie's. She and her sister Carrie L. Borden were on that famous European tour with Lizzie, 1890, and Anna was called at the Trial as a witness to Lizzie's supposed statements to her that her home was not a happy one. The jury was sent out, attorneys argued, and Anna's testimony was not admitted.
Following up on a research question submitted to lizzieandrewborden.com, I followed the Borden genealogy and found a sure relationship, though distant:
Trial
MISS ANNA H. BORDEN, Sworn.
MR. MOODY. Be good enough to lift your veil.
Q. (By Mr. Moody.) What is your full name?
A. Anna H. Borden.
Q. You live in Fall River, Miss Borden, do you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And have all your life?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You are, I believe, not a relative of the prisoner?
A. No, sir.
Page 1171
Q. How long have you known her?
A. About five years.
Q. Did you at some time make a trip abroad with her?
A. I did.
--If he had asked "are you a relative", and she wasn't, she would say no.
If he asks "you are not a relative", she would say no, if she was a relative.,
If she was not a relative, and he asked "you are not a relative?" she would say "yes".
She and her sister Carrie's greatgrandfather Thomas was Andrew's grandfather's(Richard) brother.
Meaning Lizzie's greatgrandfather and Anna's greatgrandfather were brothers.
The Genealogy Of The Borden Family Living in Fall River and Vincinity, 1876 ...FRHS.
Thomas = Richard (brothers)
Col. Richard Abraham
Col. Thomas Andrew
Anna/Carrie Emma/Lizzie
--Any other disputed genealogical relationships can be discussed here.
(Like Anna Morse?)
It appears that Anna and Carrie were third cousins to Emma and Lizzie. Perhaps Anna was not aware of the relationship, or chose to not recognize it.
Can you please tutor me here on cousin-ship?
I thought (not knowing truly and probably in error) that Thomas would be Andrew's greatuncle, that Richard would be Andrew's 2nd cousin, Thomas would be Andrew's 3rd cousin and Anna/Carrie would be Andrew's 4th cousin.
Then Carrie/Anna & Lizzie/Emma would be 5th cousins.
I had a feeling this wasn't right and I have asked 2 members out of school but none of us knew how to count cousins.
Would really appreciate this, thanks!
Can anyone help me here explaining cousin-count? I'd appreciate it, Thanks.
Heres a link to a kinship chart, its really helpful! I can remember my mom introducing me to different cousins, 1st or 2nd removed and was like, "Hunh?"
http://www.abooks.com/genealogy/kinship.html
Thanks! It is very useful! I needed something like that. Someday I would like it explained, though. I'm still a bit confused.
Thomas = Richard (brothers)
Col. Richard Abraham
Col. Thomas Andrew
Anna/Carrie Emma/Lizzie
Thomas is Lizzie's ggranduncle, right? which doesn't show on the chart?
It goes ggrandparent, grand uncle, 1st cousin 1x removed, and 2nd cousin.
My greatuncle Eugene's kids were my 2nd cousins, I was told by everybody in the room= 7 people.
That's why I'm confused. Even Doug, who I trust implicitly, says something different than 2nd cousins of Lizzie & Anna.
You're welcome. Go to -4 under Generations, the light purple area with great-great grandparents, right under that is their children which would be great grand uncles or great grand aunts, which are brothers and sisters of your great grandparents. Does that make any sense?
From the chart, this is what I get:
Richard is Lizzie's great grandfather-Thomas is her great grand uncle.
Abraham is Lizzie's grandfather-Col. Richard is her 1st cousin 2x removed.
Andrew is Lizzie's father-Col. Thomas is her 2nd cousin 1x removed.
Lizzie, Emma-Anna and Carrie are their 3rd cousins.
Do you see how I came by that?
Oh yea! Got it! And Doug is still right! (He probably wasn't even aware of my angst!).. Thank you Susan very much. Now I can use this when answering genealogy questions for the lizzieandrewborden public!
Great! Glad I could help in some way.