1. "Girls Girls Girls"
Posted by Kat on May-21st-03 at 1:05 AM

All these references are to two females aged 41 and 32, which in 1892, such ages were probably considered middle-aged.
To be precise, Bridget was also referred to as a *servant girl*, age 25-26ish.

[Upon speaking of Lizzie and/or Emma, Inquest only]:

Inquest, Morse, 97
"Sometimes; sometimes I did not see either of the girls, stayed a few minutes and talked with Mr. Borden, and went out."

100
"The girls usually come in, and go up stairs when they come in with their clothes on in that way."

Knowlton, 131
"Did you know anything about the relations between the girls and their father and mother?"

H. Harrington, 134
"No, I did not go to the house, any more than sometimes on business, that is, sometimes my wife wanted to send a letter or to invite the girls, or something of that kind, I would go to the house; sometimes I met him at the door, and have spoken."

Sawyer, 136
"I saw Miss Alice Russell going up on the other side of the street. Knowing that she had been a near neighbor, and quite intimate with the girls, of course I went over to inquire if she had heard. "

Alice Russell, 146
".  I saw the girls mostly."

".  The two girls."

151
"Mr. Borden was a plain living man with rigid ideas, and very set. They were young girls."

Knowlton, 151
"He did not appreciate girls?"

"How did you get this, from the girls talk, or what you observed?"

Alice, 152
"They had quite refined ideas, and they would like to have been cultured girls, and would like to have had different advantages, and it would natural for girls to express themselves that way. "

154
"I dont think the girls knew anything about that I found it.."

". I can tell you, any other time I have been out with the girls, sometimes a whole season, and I could not tell you what kind of hats they wore."

Sarah Whitehead, 156
".  I dont, for I never went there, very seldom, an account of these girls."

Wow.  How on earth can you ever identify yourself as a woman when everyone & his brother is habitually referring to you as "a girl"?  Probably Emma & Lizzie were called "the girls" from childhood & it just stuck.  I wonder if they found it annoying?

I also wonder if back then if you remained unmarried, you had to wait until everyone older than you had passed on before you could be safely called a "woman"?

Here in my city in the late 1700s to early 1800s, it was the law that all unmarried women over 30 who had no family had to be sent to the sanitarium to live out their days sewing & knitting with all the other "girls".  It was honestly believed they were defective &/or mentally unbalanced & had to be removed from society.

Scary.

When I looked to see what I would find (I hadn't made up my mind any which way- just knew I had always called them *girls* for some reason), I do notice now that Emma & Lizzie, in these examples are lumped together as *girls.  A few times I think they were called *daughters*.  But I thought maybe *girls* was an easier plural to use.  Also I wondered if Emma had not been so asociated with Lizzie, the appellation might not ever have stuck so thoroughly?
Meaning if Emma had gone her own way, married, etc., they would not be stuck with being *girls* anymore, even had Lizzie stayed single.

You have an interesting point.

I think I will look further to see if just one =girl.

I seem to recall at least one instance of a singular "girl."  I believe Bridget referred to Lizzie as a "girl," as in "I couldn't tell what the girl had on."  (Not a direct quote, because I haven't yet looked it up.)

It seems to me that calling adult women "girls" was a very common practice until perhaps the 1960s, when women began demanding some measure of equality.  Some of the principal agitators (for want of a better term) began saying that use of the term "girls" was demeaning and might cause people not to take women seriously.

I suspect that those who used the term inappropriately might even have thought it was flattering.  After all, "girl" conjures up an image of someone young and innocent.  If one is getting along in years and hasn't married, "girl" might sound preferable to "spinster" or "old maid," for example.  Clearly (from Kat's examples) the use of this term wasn't confined to the male sex; women called each other "girls" too.

As I remember, a "girl" was an unmarried female of any age. A "boy" was an unmarried male of any age. I think this is still used in Gt Britain. It is also a term used by aristocrats for the lower classes.

Do "boys" and "girls" call themselves by this name when alone?
"A night out for the boys/girls"?

Tina-Kate,
Holy cow! I've never heard that before! They were put in a sanitarium? I'm begging for more details! Fascinating!!!!!!!!!

I'm not going to doubt that story, except it may not apply to anyone who had a family to care for them. Did they really have sanitariums in those days? Was it a way to get rid of an unwanted relative? Would this prevent her from inheriting property? "Follow the money".

I feel a little tickled about this thread, since I brought up the other day elsewhere that "girls" was the parlance in use in those days, as in "I've written to the girls in Marion..."

It's a maddening and totally non-feminist paradox that these 30-plus women would be (mostly) considered to old to wed, and yet would be referred to as "girls."   Or are we over-generalizing?   

And, didn't Robinson, in a sympathy ploy, use "girl" in court when referring to Lizzie?

So, was Abby lucky that a well-to-do gentleman like Andrew Borden took some interest in an over-the-hill spinster or, given her eventual end, was she decidedly unlucky?

Yes, Abby was "lucky" in her marriage to Andy. She had no expectation of being murder, like most normal people, given her life-style. AR Brown explains why: a cheap way to get a dedicated servant. You can be sure Andy just didn't pick her by whim!

Somebody who did not have to provide an heir. (Maybe he couldn't get a younger girl to provide a male heir?). Somebody from a good Fall River family. Somebody who would be eternally grateful.

Actually, with disease and other problems, death of a spouse was not uncommon. There were epidemics of cholera etc. in the good old days.

Oh God/dess!  Can anyone imagine what choice Abby would have made, if she knew murder was in her forecast!

Personally, I like the term girl.  It leaves off all those male suffixes.

And yes You're probably right that Robinson would use that term girl because it would take away Lizzie's power, ANd denote she was *under his protection* both figuratively And literally!

Lola, I actually have a book called, "Toronto's Girl Problem -- The Perils & Pleasures of the City, 1880-1930" by Carolyn Strange, 1995.  It's all about how unmarried women were considered a tremendous social problem, esp as the city grew. 

It may take some time to find the ref. I mention (in fact, I believe it came from a newspaper article I read around the same time as the book & I have a suspicion since it was late 1700s-early 1880s, it may not be in this book).  However, the book is pretty eye-opening about how "we've come a long way, baby".  Toronto was a very WASP & conservative city (right up until the 1960s!), but I believe the prejudice was universal across North America.  This is a great read if you can find a copy...may not be so hard to find via internet. 

Oh!  If yr interested, try http://www.chapters.indigo.ca  That's where I got mine several yrs ago & more likely to have it than a US book site.

(Message last edited May-22nd-03  11:51 PM.)

Witness Statements
Harrington, 7:
"It was at this time I made known by my suspicions of Miss Lizzie. To the Marshal I said 'I dont like that girl'. He said 'what is that?”' "

"I then said to him 'if any girl can show you or me, or anybody else what could interest her up here for twenty minutes, I would like to have her do it.' ”

(Doherty/Harrington), 11
"He [Uncle Hiram] spoke about the Ferry street estate being given to the girls, and afterwards being returned. "

(D/H), 14, notes on Mrs. Geo. Whitehead:
"I could not purchase it, and did not want to sell; so in order that I might keep my place, Mrs. Borden, my step sister, bought the other interest. This the girls did not like; and they showed their feeling on the street by not recognizing me. Lizzie did not like Mrs. Borden.”

Harrington, notes on Jane Gray, 17:
"She told me she and the girls were allowed an equal monthly allowance, but they had more out of it than I for I had to furnish the table coverings, towelling, and other small things for the house out of mine.”

Harrington?, notes on Phebe Warner:
"Mr. Borden and the girls called once in a while. Mr. Borden gave her $10. each Christmas."

Probably Harrington?, 18:
"Summoning witnesses, Bestcome [sic] A. Case and wife of 199 Second street. Their statement. Understood from general talk the girls and Mrs. Borden did not get along very pleasantly."

"The girls got the same amount as she [Abby], but it was for their own use."

--There is an allusion to "the girls" by McHenry here in Witness Statements, but I have left him out.
--"the Girls At Marion" are here as well.  Reminds me of an episode of Robin Hood.




(Message last edited May-24th-03  4:50 AM.)