Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden Topic Name: Abby and Lizzie:  Something in Common?  

1. "Abby and Lizzie:  Something in Common?"
Posted by haulover on May-30th-03 at 10:37 PM

i never gave much thought to this before, but does anyone have any insight into the similarity between abby's visit to dr. bowen and lizzie's visit to alice russell? 

similarities:  both visits seem to be atypical, both express concern that someone is trying/might do them harm, both women talk about the recent sickness.

one obvious difference is that lizzie has a lot more to say:  that father has an enemy, the pigeons killed, etc.

then, thinking further, is there a connection between this and the fact that dr. bowen is the first person lizzie asks for at the time of the murders?  notice that when lizzie finds that dr. bowen is not available, she does not then seek a different doctor but alice russell -- whom she spoke to the night before.  and abby spoke to dr. bowen the day before.

this is just an inkling.....but we've often asked, why bowen and why does bowen behave as he does on the scene?

is lizzie choosing to ask for the people who have most recently heard of the fears/premonitions from the borden household?  did abby's visit to dr. bowen directly figure into lizzie's decision to visit alice russell with her grave forebodings?  is this a guilty cunning lizzie seeking to build on abby's fears (expressed to bowen) that someone is out to get them? 

and so when the murders are done, lizzie wants bowen and alice there as soon as possible to substantiate the fears recently expressed?  i've also considered that lizzie wants bowen there as soon as possible to explain to police why there is a bloody pail in the cellar.

any thoughts on this, or have we been through this before?



2. "Re: Abby and Lizzie:  Something in Common?"
Posted by Kat on May-31st-03 at 3:06 AM
In response to Message #1.

I thought if they were dead by poison Lizzie might want Alice and Bowen.
Neither person thought they would find a murder victim when they arrived.  Both were very much surprised and acted nervous & confused upon finding out there was (what Alice calls) *cold-blooded murder*.
Bowen came thinking the Borden's were worse from the day before.
So did Alice.
I'm not sure what that accomplished, do you see what I mean?
If they came, as outsiders, thinking illness or sickness, and find a horrific massacre, what effect would that have?
Also, Abby never said she thought someone was trying to poison her, according to Bowen.  She thought what she ate was poisoned.
It is an interesting parallel, tho.
The people most recently told of the illness were forewarned, you could say.
But Mrs. Churchill offered to send for some help and was given permission by Lizzie.  That would probably have eventually brought a doctor other than Bowen, and maybe it did, because later the place was over-run by doctors!


3. "Re: Abby and Lizzie:  Something in Common?"
Posted by rays on May-31st-03 at 12:39 PM
In response to Message #2.

Does it seem that both expected something bad to happen soon? Reaction to the proposed visit by JVM (and Nemesis)?


4. "Re: Abby and Lizzie:  Something in Common?"
Posted by harry on May-31st-03 at 1:23 PM
In response to Message #1.

Lizzie would not have known what Abby said to Dr. Bowen and maybe she thought Abby said that she (Abby) suspected it was Lizzie's doing.

To counter that, Lizzie would tell Alice of her forebodings and of the robberies to in effect enlist Alice as someone who was aware of possible future troubles at the Borden house and that those troubles would be caused by someone other than Lizzie.

Just speculating.


5. "Re: Abby and Lizzie:  Something in Common?"
Posted by Susan on May-31st-03 at 1:52 PM
In response to Message #1.

You've brought up an interesting point, Haulover.  Both Abby and Lizzie sound like they are afraid, and they want their fears allayed.  And what happened to both of them?  Their fears were both pooh-poohed.

As far as I can see, Dr. Bowen was called because he was the family's physician.  Lizzie asked Bridget to get her a doctor, not specifically Dr. Bowen, so, it was Bridget's choosing there.  Lincoln says in her book that Dr. Kelly from next-door was never sought as he was Irish and beneath the Bordens.  I don't know if there is any truth to that.  In an emergency situation would someone wait for a specific doctor for hours or take one that was on hand now?  I think Dr. Bowen went into that house as a doctor, but, upon viewing Andrew became a man who was a friend or neighbor to the murdered man and possibly that is why he acted as strangely as he did?

All of Lizzie's girlfriends were at Marion, Alice Russell was in town.  I've wondered why Lizzie never visited Mrs. Brigham, who did show up at Lizzie's side eventually.  My thought has been that in the absence of Emma, Alice was a surrogate big sister/mother figure to Lizzie.  She went to her with her fears and wanted her there to hold her hand on the murder day.  And Alice prods Lizzie to "tell all" to the police that was told to her the night before, Lizzie seems quite reticent at that point.

This is just my take on the situation. But,there does seem to be a sort of sick cosmic joke of "I told you so" played upon Alice and Dr. Bowen.  Almost like, its your fault, had you listened to one of us and taken us seriously, this may not have happened. 


6. "Re: Abby and Lizzie:  Something in Common?"
Posted by Kat on May-31st-03 at 4:47 PM
In response to Message #4.

I wonder why Lizzie would think that?  (It sounds like a guilty conscience, because she would be assuming the worst)
That's a good point tho, that the visit to Alice the same evening could be to counter-act whatever Abby may have said to Bowen. 
When Bowen came over to check up on Andrew, it's possible this was discussed at that time.
I do think Lizzie either was listening, or overheard what was said.
Apparently hearing voices from the sitting room bothered her rest at different times.

Maybe that's why the girls switched rooms?
Just so Lizzie could overhear sitting room talk, and plan accordingly?
She could also overhear from that vantage point conversation in the elder Borden's bedroom, I bet!
She heard them sick in the night and held conversation thru the wall/door with them...


7. "Emma and Lizzie:  Something in Common?"
Posted by Kat on Jun-1st-03 at 2:13 PM
In response to Message #6.

I realized, back at the Inquest, Emma is asked if she looked for the note and she said "No".  (113)

And Lizzie is asked if she looked for the note, and she said "No".  (80)

Gee I wonder why the girls didn't bother to look for the note?


8. "Re: Emma and Lizzie:  Something in Common?"
Posted by diana on Jun-1st-03 at 7:02 PM
In response to Message #7.

I don't know if we can totally rule out Emma’s belief in the note.

It is true that she says she’s done nothing to find it before the Inquest.  But the inquest was less than a week after the murders.  Perhaps the note was not considered a really critical issue yet? After all, Lizzie was not charged with murder at that point.

At the trial, Emma says she looked for the note "in a little bag that she [Abby] carried downstreet with her sometimes, and in her workbasket".  And, further, that she authorized a newspaper advertisement seeking information about the note or the messenger who brought it.(Trial,1556)


(Message last edited Jun-1st-03  7:36 PM.)


9. "Re: Emma and Lizzie:  Something in Common?"
Posted by rays on Jun-2nd-03 at 10:10 AM
In response to Message #7.

If the Police didn't find it, why would they be better?
Masterton suggests the note was burned after reading. Wasn't that common practice? It had no special purpose at that time.


10. "Re: Abby and Lizzie:  Something in Common?"
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Jun-2nd-03 at 11:24 AM
In response to Message #4.

Harry - I don't think we really know how much of what Abby said to Bowen was known to Lizzie.  It depends on how much Abby and Bowen said to Andrew, within Lizzie's hearing, when Bowen came over to check on the old man, if I'm getting this right.  I'm going by Lizzie telling Alice she was "so mortified" by Andrew's treatment of Bowen.


11. "Re: Abby and Lizzie:  Something in Common?"
Posted by Kat on Jun-2nd-03 at 11:35 AM
In response to Message #10.

When Bowen came over, he thought Lizzie was rushing upstairs.
Then Bowen says that he didn't *see* Abby, because he had already seen her.
All we know then, is that neither female was in the sitting room for whatever conversation Andrew & Bowen had.
But I bet they were listening!

Bowen kind of shrugs off any fabled confrontation that was supposed to have happened about his visit by saying *I didn't think much about it.*


12. "Re: Abby and Lizzie:  Something in Common?"
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Jun-3rd-03 at 12:13 PM
In response to Message #11.

Yes, I'm supposing that Lizzie's comment to Alice meant that she either heard the encounter or heard ABOUT it.


13. "Re: Abby and Lizzie:  Something in Common?"
Posted by harry on Jun-3rd-03 at 12:37 PM
In response to Message #12.

I was speculating that Lizzie may have used Alice with the thought that Abby MAY or DID tell Bowen something about her possible involvement with her sickness.

There was no way for Lizzie, without hearing Abby or Bowen say something, to have known positively. It just seems to me that Lizzie's visit to Alice doesn't seem to have any rationale. It's simply too much of a coincidence considering what happened the next day.

If Abby did mention Lizzie then Bowen is guilty of suppressing evidence. Would he have done that for Lizzie? 

There is also the possibility that Abby's visit to Bowen eliminated the future use of poison and the hatchet was resorted to.

Again, just speculating.


14. "Re: Abby and Lizzie:  Something in Common?"
Posted by Kat on Jun-3rd-03 at 1:15 PM
In response to Message #13.

But it was AFTEr Abby's visit to Bowen and Bowen's subsequent visit to Andrew, that Lizzie supposedly tried to buy prussic acid.
I mean, like within an hour or two, right?
Does that make sense?  Then that night she unloads on Alice about poison.
Would she do that?

--I do so like the picture of Lizzie *listening* at doors and through walls.  Guilty or not...

In that video, Histories Mysteries, MM says that Lizzie's nearest friends would probably suppress info for her in his opinion.  He was alluding to or implying actual removal of *evidence*  He didn't call it that, tho.  He called it something that shouldn't be there.
(Good phrase for a pro, what hey?)


15. "Re: Abby and Lizzie:  Something in Common?"
Posted by harry on Jun-3rd-03 at 1:36 PM
In response to Message #14.

You're right on the timing of the poison purchase Kat.

I just was looking for some reason that makes sense why Lizzie would visit Alice and spill her guts. Did she know at that time she was going to do in Abby the next day?  If she did then it really makes no sense. If I had a murder to commit I would lay as low as possible.

Then sometimes I get the thought that she did all these things openly just to make it appear so blatant that it couldn't be her.


16. "Slight detour"
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Jun-3rd-03 at 2:37 PM
In response to Message #15.

We know that Victoria Lincoln thought that Lizzie's guilty conscience was compelling her to, in essence, ask Alice to see through her chat and stop her.  But, given the discussion on this thread and the rest of Lincoln's book, I'm not so sure that version holds up anymore.

She doesn't say Lizzie was planning to kill the folks with a hatchet the next day and, therefore, rattled on about Father's enemies and Abby's fears.  However, Lincoln does commit herself to imagining that Lizzie was going to get rid of the both of her parents; she comments that the notion of comitting a double homicide must have been frightening.  So, did she mean poison, which Lizzie had, presumably failed to purchase that afternoon?  

However, Lincoln's version of the murder morning has Lizzie, in her menstrual spell, intercepting the "come to the bank" note meant for Abby, going into a fury, and taking an implement to the old woman.  Then, after Lizzie came to herself and cleaned up, the author theorized that she dressed for the street, only to be surprised by Andrew's early return.  In a quandry, Lizzie kills her father as he dozes off to prevent him from discovering what she and only she could have done.

So, the night before, Lincoln has Lizzie obsessively nattering on, aware that she's going to attempt two murders, and the next day she has Lizzie fly into a rage and commit one.  Then, unfortunate events compel her to commit another.  Am I wrong about this contradiction in Lincoln's retelling?

Now, we have another seeming contradiction, outside of Lincoln's book: Abby, more or less, brings Bowen back to the house after telling him she's afraid of poison and nearly vomiting in his consulting room.  Lizzie either hears this, or hears of it, and yet, she goes out that very day and tries to buy poison herself.  What could she have been thinking?

As Fritz Weaver says in that TV-movie, "Guess we'll never know..."

Any ideas?          

(Message last edited Jun-3rd-03  2:40 PM.)


17. "Re: Slight detour"
Posted by Kat on Jun-3rd-03 at 8:17 PM
In response to Message #16.

I think you should write a book review on Lincoln!
For the Museum/Library.
That would be one hell of a review!
pleaseplease?


18. "Re: Slight detour"
Posted by Kat on Jun-3rd-03 at 8:23 PM
In response to Message #16.

I'm not so up on Lincoln.
But to reply as to the logic, how could Lizzie fly into a rage and kill Abby with a Hatchet?
Like she happened to carry one around on her person in case that smelly Billie came 'round, or that prowler showed up again on the porch?

If Abby's killing was spontaneous, then since that room was used for sewing I would see Lizzie grabbing for the scissors!


19. "Re: Slight detour"
Posted by haulover on Jun-3rd-03 at 10:51 PM
In response to Message #16.

bob:

lincoln's book was the first i read when i was a teenager.  i was naive but perhaps perceptive to be baffled by lincoln's explanation for lizzie killing her father.  lincoln actually seemed to reason that she truly loved her father--yet she could hack him to death to keep him from knowing -- and that the lesser number of blows was indicative of a lesser rage or an "i hate to do this but......." kind of attitude. 

the most obvious reason for the lesser number of blows to andrew is that she is running out of time.

a huge flaw in lincoln's theory (and i've tried to believe it myself) is that lizzie intended to kill abby, dress for the street and establish an alibi.  yet she had at least an hour to do this and couldn't.  why?  she was able to call maggie down 10 or 15 min after andrew was killed.  well, i suppose lincoln insinuates it took lizzie a while to get over her spell or her murderous mood.

my current theory for lizzie's visit to alice is to establish some evidence that there was fear in the household that someone was out to get them -- that they feared an OUTSIDER. 

the trouble is we don't know how lizzie's mind worked.  could be after abby made such a fuss about poison, lizzie reasoned that the smartest thing to do would be to get some poison and make abby's fears come true -- with bowen as a witness of sorts.  to follow this through -- when lizzie found she couldn't get poison, she shifted into another gear and decided to "confide" to alice about a whole variety of household fears (mysterious stranger lurking about, poisoned bread, an argument father had, barn broken in, etc.)  and also to change method to axe.  i know some people reject the idea of her switching from poison to axe -- but again, how did lizzie think?  if she meant business and was determined to do whatever it took to get it done..........i can see it.  and i've asked this question before; but maybe you can answer it.  what other implement or weapon was there in the house that was effective and reliable enough to just knock their lights out quickly?  if she fails to poison them, what does she then do?




20. "Re: Slight detour"
Posted by haulover on Jun-3rd-03 at 10:57 PM
In response to Message #18.

kat:

the simple answer is it could not have been THAT spontaneous.  she could not have predicted the exact moment, but she must have been planning.  think of how different the crime scene would look if lizzie had mindlessly flown into a rage and grabbed scissors.  more difficult to inflict quick mortal wounds.  struggles.  screams.  messiness and disarray.


21. "Re: Slight detour"
Posted by Susan on Jun-3rd-03 at 11:49 PM
In response to Message #19.

Lizzie actually poisoning Abby after she had been to see Dr. Bowen is an interesting idea.  Abby had been checked by Dr. Bowen and he pooh-poohed Abby's poison theory, so, I'm wondering what kind of edge that would give Lizzie?  The doctor said no poison, then Abby and Andrew die of poisoning, he looks foolish.  Or, maybe it was that Abby's fears of poisoning were layed to rest, Lizzie could act with impunity as Abby wouldn't fear Lizzie trying to poison her.  Hmmm.

Lizzie's visit to Alice could have been a veiled call for help as Lincoln theorized, but, I've always seen it as setting up an alibi for herself; Father has enemies, there is danger about my family home, anything could happen.  Perhaps Lizzie needed Alice to believe her as a test before actually doing the deed, if Alice could believe Lizzie's stories, everyone else would buy them too. 


22. "Re: Slight detour"
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Jun-4th-03 at 10:05 AM
In response to Message #17.

What a nice thing for you to say, to suggest I think about writing a piece for you on the Lincoln book.  So, I'll think about it!

BTW, the wallpaper behind this month's Newzletter is stunning.


23. "Re: Abby and Lizzie:  Something in Common?"
Posted by rays on Jun-4th-03 at 10:28 AM
In response to Message #11.

Perhaps their sickness was psychological? They knew about Andy's meeting w/ Wm S Borden, and the thought of losing property was making them both sick?
Is that situation unknown today? DO children get sick when they don't want to go to school?