1. "Introduction"
Posted by JohnH on Sep-27th-03 at 12:26 PM

Hello all,

I am new to the forum.  I discovered the website through eBay.  The quality of this website (and the forum) is of a very high standard - great job.

I have read several books on this case, but to be honest, it has been many years, and I have forgotten all the angles.  My wife and I took a trip to New England earlier this week (we live in PA), and I was sure to incorporate Fall River into our vacation, after seeing the Fall River Historical Society's website.  My goal was to pick up a book or two on the crime and ease myself back into the "mystery". 

My initial introduction to the case came via the telefilm starring Elizabeth Montgomery.  At that time, I was 10 years old.  By age 12, I practically lived at the library and began reading the few books on the subject available there.  Twenty-five+ years later, and I find myself interested again.

My first mistake was buying only one book - Lizzie Borden Past and Present.  There was another book (at 19.95) which was a large style paperback filled with newspaper clippings related to the case.  It seemed like it may be an interesting read, but my tightness prevailed, and I left without it.  What is this book?  And is it worth the purchase?  (I suppose people here consider *all* the books worth purchasing?)  I noticed another book or two that seemed to be fiction.  These seemed like they would only suit the hardcore completist in the Lizzie hobby.  With the exception of Gore Vidal's historical fiction, I tend to shy away from these kinds of books (fiction built around fact.)  It seems there is no truly definitive book on this crime.  The Rebello book is quite good though, as it is very well researched.  I see it as a supplemental (and must-have) piece to go along with the other books written in narrative form.  I plan on buying them up!

Lastly, to the controversial part of my post......Although there is a definite air of mystery surrounding this case, I tend to think the mystery of "whodunit" is not that great.  The list of suspects does not seem all that long to me.  REALISTIC suspects, that is!  The brutality of the crime seems to indicate passion - a personal crime.  I have quite the collection of true crime books in my library, and I can't think of one that doesn't have unanswered questions.  It is these unanswered questions that spark one's curiosity.  And in our case, a passion for investigating, deducing, and theorizing.  Great fun, indeed!

Just out of curiosity, does anyone in here believe O.J. Simpson was innocent?  You see, the guilty DO go free.

Again, GREAT website - quickly becoming one of my favorites.  The wealth of knowledge here is quite impressive!

Take care,

John

Welcome JohnH!

We are always glad to see new people here.  We have members who cover the range of newcomer to very knowledgeable. 

In the library you will find almost all of the primary documents in digitized form for free.  We have wanted everyone to have access to the same basic knowledge. Stefani has done a whale of a job creating one of the best sites on the internet.

The large book you referred to is "Lizzie Borden: Did She ... Or Didn't She?"  which is a compilation of daily newspaper articles from the 1892 and 1893 New Bedford Evening Standard.  That is available in digitized format in the gift shop on the web site.

Again, welcome and feel free to let us know your thoughts.

Harry W.

The one best book to read is David Kent's "40 Whacks".
Rick Geary also has a serious comic book treatment of this case.
This was covered in another topic.

Many of the books from over 30 years ago are not available. Some can be downloaded from an associated site.

YES! O J Simpson is innocent (of killing Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman). The limo driver picked him up at 11pm, so he was in the airport when they were killed after 11:30pm. You will discover these facts after sifting through the mountain of straw covering these facts. That's why the "OJ did it" craze died out in 2000.
Only the prejudiced, or those who can't or won't learn, still believe he was guilty. But this is not the forum to discuss this.

Searching the web will find the GEOCITIES site, and POLICENET.org, which offer more facts than you get from the propaganda machines like jay Leno.

  Hi JohnH!  Welcome to the forum, always good to see new members!

I see you were introduced to Lizzie the same way I was with the Legend Of Lizzie Borden movie w/ Elizabeth Montgomery.  What a weird thrill to find out that the story was true and there were books on the case!

Hope to see you posting more with your take on the case, the site can be a bit overwhelming at first, I remember I took about 2 to 3 days reading all the info on the site and then on the forum before I took the plunge.

I really don't have a take on the OJ case as I haven't studied it too closely, but, that police chase with the White Bronco is indelibly stamped in my brain.

Thanks for the warm welcome.  Good atmosphere here.

I meant the Simpson question as more of a rhetorical question to illustrate a point.  Perhaps I shouldn't have written that sentence.  If Rays would like to argue (politely!) about that case, he/she can e-mail me privately.  I don't want to come here and start a thread that is off topic. Please accept my apologies.

Once I get caught up on this case, I'll be able to make intelligent, informed contributions.  Until then, I'll just read.

Take care,

John

Hi John, Welcome!
I would have to agree with rays on the 40 Whacks book as being a good one to read but as far as O.J. being innocent, well thats just a whole other story. I guess that the trail of the victims blood running from the murder scene back to OJ's house was nothing more than a coincidence!
The Lizzie Borden-Past & Present is my all time favorite Lizzie book but it's more of a "Lizzie Dictonary" then a book per se. I like Victoria Lincoln's- A Private Disgrace partly because it offered up little tid-bits of Lizzie info that I had never heard before & partly because she was from Fall River but her actual theroy of Miss Lizze having an epiletic fit & hacking her parents was just a little to far-fetched for me. To each his own I guess.
Welcome once again and stick around awhile. You'll never find a bunch of more dedicated Lizzie "Nuts" then right here. I've learened so much about the case in such a short time on this & www.lizzieandrewborden.com then I did living in Fall River for 35 years, less then 1 mile from the scene of the crime.  Mark

Welcome John. 

Pls don't think you need a Ph D on Lizzie to post here.  Interesting questions & fresh perspectives are just as valuable.

Hi John!
A Good Day to Start!

BTW:  To Ray, didn't a civil court find Mr. Simpson culpable?  You forget he was tried and found guilty!

Sorry I got carried away...

John:  Thank you for the formal introduction and info on how you got interested in the case.   There are other new people who I would love to also meet here on this thread.
Maybe Breezy will introduce herself and re-join us here?  Anyone else?

Yes, any lurkers who'd just like to say hi, or take the plunge, nows a great time!  C'mon, what could it hurt? 

No apology needed, the question of OJ's guilt is as settled as that of Lizzie Borden. The back cover of Rick Geary's book? The Trial of OJ resulted in about 100 published books (more than Watergate, a more serious crime). No need to discuss that either.

For either LAB or OJ, most people are strong on opinions as they know less about either case. Emotion, not reason.

A few years ago I discussed this with my older cousin, who has hunted for over 50 years. "How long does it take for the red liquid blood from a freshly killed deer to turn black and clotted?" "About 40 to 45 minutes." "Then finding red liquid blood means freshly killed, not two hours old."

This fact not only applies to the Borden Murders.

In June 1997 the LA Times carried a story that the lead detective went to the morgue and carried away samples of Nicole's and Ron's blood. It was NOT a coincidence.
You may look it up for yourself.

If you read Daniel Petrocelli's book, he explains how this trial was fixed. (Too long to type here.)

I thought we would take the O.J. argument to e-mail.  Actually, I've read numerous books on the case.  The not guilty scenario is absolutely ludicrous.  You suggest Petrocelli.  I suggest Bugliosi.  We could go back and forth for weeks but to what end?

Back to Borden............

John

Thanks JohnH...that's what I thought the forum was for. Kat in another thread pointed out the URL for discussing that other case.

As for books on the Borden case I like Radin's but disagree on his conclusion. Not that it was impossible but he offers no good reason for Bridget to be the killer. 

Kent is also good. Lincoln is easy reading but contains too many factual errors as well as repeating rumors as fact. In addition she is very petty in a lot of her remarks.

IMHO, THE book on the Borden crimes is yet to be written.  I don't think it would even have to attempt to solve the crime but just bring the history of the crimes up to date. A lot has been discovered in the last 10 years that was not available before.  Even more will be available if the FRHS ever releases the Hilliard papers. We have some clever writers on this forum so maybe one will pick up the ball and run with it.

(Message last edited Sep-28th-03  4:55 PM.)

I especially like Rick  Geary's treatment as relief for that imprint on my brain of the Legend movie.
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/InterviewRickGeary.htm

I also like the Pearson-Radin Controversy in the Privy, it's logical:
http://www.arborwood.com/awforums/show-topic-1.php?start=1&fid=27&taid=8&topid=21&ut=1010546321

Also The Mystery Unveiled, Todd Lunday.
As download:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/CaseRelatedBooks.htm

Hello, John H.  Welcome aboard. 

your question was whether or not it's obvious that lizzie was guilty?

it's obvious she is not "innocent."  any observations on her inquest testimony?

A few years before, E Radin proved the 1897 confession was a forgery. Forged typewritten documents were then in the news. This may be why he was assigned to investigate the Borden Murders. His book is what you would expect from a reporter.
I think the chapter suggesting Bridget is merely a way to question the popular opinion, and sell his book. It did say Edmund Pearson's account of the Trial was so one-side as to be a literary hoax.
Arnold R Brown's book is still the best and final solution to the crime. No one has written a better book, and maybe no one will.

The jury's decision still stands in either case: "not guilty".

Vincent Bugliosi was criticized for NEVER attending the trial, but writing from the news media. There is only one book written by a writer who attended EVERY day of the trial. You may read it. (He was invited because of his knowledge of DNA in another case.)
...
The author is named Joe Bosco. He had written a book on a case involving DNA, and so got a permanent seat at the trial. Read his book for eyewitness accounts during the whole trial. He discounts Bugliosi as someone who never stepped inside the courtroom at any time.

(Message last edited Sep-29th-03  6:15 PM.)

On "E" channel at 1 there is a documentary on OJ.
Right now.
At least here.
Check your local listing.

Thanks for telling me. I'll turn OFF my TV set.

Aren't we lucky we have the guy living in our state?

I think that would have the same effect on me as three day old, warmed over, mutton soup.  Move over Bridget.

Hi, John!  Welcome to our sometimes placid, sometimes choppy little pond!

(The name of the pond?  Either North Watuppa or South Watuppa - that'll make sense to you one of these days, as you get into your Fall River reading!)

FLA (like TX) has a Homestead Law to protect you against creditors. Maybe he got advice from F Lee Bailey? FLA's hispanic population may also be more friendly for someone like him.

Fla. did a job on F. Lee also.
Accused him of taking drug money for his pay from a client.
$2 million.  They wanted it from him.
They stuck him in jail and eventually drove him out of the state.
I wondered if OJ's shennanigans in South Florida ever makes the national news?

Actually, it was a Federal case. Bob Shapiro "double-crossed" Lee Bailey by testifying for the Government case. Lee accepted certain securities to work for an accused drug dealer (who lost). Bailey had sold these to pay for the defense. Since they had appreciated in value, the Government wanted this as well. (As I understand this.)

No, I haven't heard anything about "news" from FLA.

OJ was detained and searched for drugs but was released.
I think he's gotten a few tickets also.
Sydney  called 911 and complained her father was yelling at her and it scared her and she didn't want to live with him anymore.
His girlfriend was pressuring him to marry her and so they broke up.
Then she disappeared and her mother reported her missing.
They went to the girls apartment and there was the stench of death.
It turns out she had just gone away for a while but her cat died with no one to care for it.
I think she was charged with animal cruelty when she returned.
It's a soap-opera down south.

I don't know which would make a person sound dumber --
dating O.J. or forgetting you had a cat to feed. Think
a baby would get left behind too???

Kimberly, you really are hilarious!! 

You should have seen what I started to say before I
got to thinking I might get got for slander.

Anyone "famous" and a sports star get the groupies. I've read that murderers get lots of letters from lonely women (who do not "have a life"). How sad for them!!

Also, the reputation of riches also attracts those women who have a dull life. There are plenty of women, then and now, who measure a man by his wallet, or what they think is there.

Errare humanum est.

Actually you can probably post it here, just don't mention any names.
Like, "what if somebody ...".
Don't we all like to hear juicy gossip?
But often a gossiper is later shunned because of their gossip? Who wants to be her next subject?

I think we buried JohnH under a bunch of OJ stuff.
Sorry guy!
We're still here and will try to stay tuned to your next topic.