1. "Lizzie--Introvert or Extrovert?"
Posted by Benjamin on Sep-12th-03 at 10:57 AM

There is a book & website called The Introvert Advantage and I'd mentioned going to Fall River and that I thought Lizzie was an "innie" because she had one or two close friends and didn't seem to be too active in social settings. Her church work could afford a way to be out-and-about without having to be too intimate with people. I also felt she was more introverted because she did keep to herself after the trial.(yes, the social pressure could add to that) Although she did entertain on occassion, were there constant parties?  I feel she was introverted because she kept her cards pretty close to her chest and wasn't super-chatty. One guy said that "people buy big houses in order to entertain". I thought she bought the big house for status and to finally have some breathing space?  What do you all think?

just off the cuff -- it looks like she made an effort to become more extroverted.  being an introvert myself, i don't understand why anyone would try to go against his/her own nature, but maybe that's what she was trying to do?  she certainly did not "clarify" herself publicly, did she?  as far as explaining herself in regard to the murders, i mean.

i guess we can assume that nance understood who lizzie was?  nance must have benefited from her.  i guess we would know more if nance had been a katherine hepburn or a bette davis.  now i'm remembering an odd quote -- don't put much stock in it, i can't source it -- where T. bankhead (theater person) said she was certain that "lizzie borden did it."  that makes me wonder if lizzie had an "underground reputation" in the theater.



 

I'm an introvert also, and when I try to be outgoing I just
seem (and feel) obnoxious -- Lizzie was said to have seemed
snobbish and V. Lincoln has her being shunned & not really
thought of highly -- even before the murders. That she was
trying too hard & it came off badly. I can see why -- if you
are naturally quiet people think you are acting uppity & if
you try to go out of your way to be chummy it just looks like
you are trying too hard & it looks fake & stupid. I think
Lizzie eventually ended up with friends who understood & got
past her trying too hard & didn't hold her aloofness against
her -- they were not offened by it, and didn't think she was
acting that way (aloof) because she didn't like them. 

If Lizzie's life was to be treated like "poor relations" by the other upper crust of Fall River, this would definitely sour her outlook.
Anybody with similar experiences?
Think of your high school social cliques, the ins and the outs.

funny you mention "high school popularity."  most people who grow get well past that in time.  i wonder why you think about that in regards to lizzie.  if lizzie was a reasonably intelligent person (i've no reason to think otherwise) then the trial itself must have made every difficulty before it pale in comparison. 

one factor against her being a true introvert is that she doesn't leave us with anything to back it up.  maybe this is a gender- or an era-issue -- but had i been lizzie, guilty or innocent, i think i would have just had to leave something.  a book -- a memoir, an explanation, a confession, a cryptic something.  but she lives out her life as though it never happened.  her quote: "that's always been a mystery" should be her epitaph. you know, that's the weirdest part of it -- guilty or innocent -- that she could so successfully just "write it off."  i would think if i had known her personally, i could figure something out -- but who among those who did, ever said a thing?

lizzie borden,
blacker than night,
behind you is truth,
how did you hide the light?

I don't have the impression that Lizzie had a great life after.  I know you didn't say that, but thinking that she just put all that out of her mind, somehow my impression is different and I doubt she could forget.
There are a couple of instances I have noticed:  one where her friend claims Lizzie is a wreck* and Lizzie herself, in her "little bird" note to Brayton says she is "very nervous".
It's possible she was an introvert with anxieties.  How she dealt with that incarceration and trial is amazing for anyone, let alone a Victorian lady spinster orphan.
Maybe it took all she had left of iron will in reserve, and after she just sort of carried on.
We still need also to consider continuing drug use if she was ever addicted.
Maybe she was, then quit, then was again, then quit.  She would fit in with a theatre crowd if she did and that could give her a temporary personality of extrovert.

*[Edit here:  Rebello, 293.  An *Interview* with Rev. Dr. Jubb, "Miss Lizzie is in very poor health.  At present a lady friend from Worcester is staying with her.  Miss Lizzie is a nervous wreck, and will probably never recover."
--Boston Advertiser, June (approx. 8th), 1894, a year after the trial.]

(Message last edited Sep-23rd-03  6:54 AM.)

The big house was a status symbol - Lizzie had arrived so to speak. She could now live in such a manner as her social status dictated but more importantly in a manner she felt entitled to. Just my take on it.

Lizzie seemed introverted to me but maybe a better word might be repressed. But maybe that came with the territory - the era etc. On the other hand after she was released and free to pursue her own interests she may have become more extroverted who knows? I'm thinking Lizzie took up with theater folk cause she was shunned by most everyone else. And possibly after "hanging out" with the actors she became less introverted.

I know what you mean, Kimberly. When I've gone to parties and tried to be really outgoing it's been a disaster.   It comes off forced. Like when they say Lizzie is trying too hard. And when I pull back and just observe, people think I'm being aloof. It's a no-win situation. I do better at small gatherings.  I think Lizzie was drawn to the theatre people partly because of main society shunning her, but also because theatre people tend to be more relaxed. And since there are a lot of egos in theatre, they certainly love a good introvert who can listen to them go on and on! 
  I like the idea of Lizzie having breathing space and privacy at Maplecroft.  My Mom's best friend said her favorite house was the one with four bathrooms. It was just she and her husband. She loved being able to lose herself in that house.  I imagine Lizzie at times finding a quiet nook in Maplecroft and reading a book or looking out over the town and just "unclenching" for a few moments. 

One book says the shunning occurred after the trial, when the Providence Journal editorialized that after being found "not guilty" she should tell all she knows. (Did they follow their own advice?)

AR Brown's book provides the answer to that question, as well as why she put iron bars on all the first floor windows.

Rays, did Lizzie or Emma put bars on the first floor windows, or on the basement windows?  Or on any windows?  Did the son of Maplecroft answer this question, do we recall?

I tried to do a search, but, can't recall what his screen name was, was it something to do with Dube? 

I remember the book saying "first floor windows", but that must mean the basement windows. See the photo on the back dust jacket. (I'm not an eyewitness, nor do I know when they were removed.)

Some houses in my current neighborhood have bars over the basement windows. That's usually the easiest way to break in. A lot of people often have heavy solid doors out front, but a half glass door in the back, where nobody watches!!!

(Message last edited Sep-20th-03  2:53 PM.)

Susan, he used the forum name of "dubiousmike".

On the back outer cover of the Brown book is this quote "from the book" :

"The Borden sister's made one other change in their home that raised eyebrows and questions that were never answered.  In a neighborhood where doors were not locked in the daytime and, in summer, they stood open at night to catch any worthwhile breeze - a neighborhood where crime was unknown - the sisters had bars applied to all lower-level windows and doors.

Both sisters had an unquestioned need to keep the unwanted from entering the house.  The killer was out there.  They knew who he was, and they knew where he was.

They also knew it could all happen again, and they were afraid."

The picture of Maplecroft is shaded so that no bars can be seen.  It is this exact view, except in sepia.  It is labeled as c. 1910.



From: LizzieAndrewBordenVirtualMuseum/Library - Galleries:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Maplecroft.htm

"Jung distinguished introverts (those who habitually concentrate on their selves rather than on outside objects) from extroverts (the convese preference). Not only was introversion a totally normal and natural function in childhood, it remains normal and natural even if it predominates the mental life.

Yet, the habitual and predominant focussing of attention upon one's self, to the exclusion of others is THE definition of pathological narcissism. What differentiates the pathological from the normal is degree. Pathological narcissism is ex-clusive and all-pervasive. Other forms of narcissism are not. So, although there is no healthy state of habitual, predominant introversion, it remains a question of form and degree of introversion. Often a healthy, adaptive mechanism goes awry. When it does, as Jung himself recognized, neuroses form. Freud regards Narcissism as a POINT while Jung regards it as a CONTINUUM (from health to sickness)."

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php/type/doc/id/419

--This site on Narcissism explains that Lizzie [if diagnosed as such] may have
joined her charitable societies to bolster her own ego, to present herself to the world with the face she wants seen, and becoming the object of attention (when she taught Sunday school -If she really did);  getting her name on the Woman's Board of the local hospital gains admiration.

"The Narcissist actively seeks to furnish himself with an endless supply of admiration, adulation, affirmation and attention".

--I may not know if Lizzie had NPD, but I've often questioned her motives for joining these groups.  She didn't stick to them for very long.

Susan, I've been scouring the Search + the Archives & having no luck.

I'm positive I asked "dubiousmike" re the bars & he said the bars are still there.

He was most prominent on the "Movin' on Up" thread, but I had no luck there.

BTW - I can see the basement window bars on the 1910 photo

(Message last edited Sep-21st-03  2:02 PM.)

FOUND IT!  Thanks, Harry and Tina-Kate.  Yes, Tina-Kate, you did ask about the bars on the cellar windows, heres Mike's answer, its in the archives, just search under "dubiousmike".

56. "Re: Maplecroft"
Posted by dubiousmike on Feb-27th-03 at 11:22 PM
In response to Message #55.
My understanding was that Andrew owned huge amounts of property.  She was absolutely rolling in dough.  Enough to be known as a bit of a party girl, with friends from Boston and NY coming through to have fun 'till the wee hours of the morning.

There were and still are bars on the cellar windows.
She was definitely concerned about safety and privacy with there being only she and her sister.  I suppose a low paid maid might run for the hills at the first sign of trouble? 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Love that we have all that stuff from him.  I wonder where hes gotten off too, wish he would post again, that was so much fun and so informative.  If you're reading this Mike, thanks again! 

Whew!  Thank YOU, Susan.

Drives me crazy when I know something is around & I can't find it.

I think I'll just read that section over again...

You're welcome, Tina-Kate.  I just reread the stint of posting by Mike there, very enjoyable to see all of it again! 

So that was Tina-Kate!
I remembered something about it by Mike but didn't go looking.
Good for you guys!
I did just find today while looking for something else, in deMille's Dance of Death:
pg. 80
"The basement windows were all heavily barred and the large kitchen and pantry had a special icebox through which deliveries could be made from outside, as many of the errand boys refused to enter the house and had taken to leaving on the back porch steps the groceries and the chestnuts which Lizzie purchased for squirrels."
and
81-82:
"In her new grandeur she lived alone except for her servants, who demanded unusually high wages for staying under the same roof. "


--Tina-Kate, can you really see the bars in the picture?  Did you blow it up bigger?  I can't see the bars on the picture of Maplecroft on the back of "Did She? Or Didn't She?" which is taken later but is one of the clearest photo's I've seen of the exterior.

(Message last edited Sep-22nd-03  4:31 AM.)

I have to wonder about DeMille's errand boys, do you think it was that they refused to enter the house or that Lizzie refused to allow them to enter?  Strangers possibly entering her home on business just to gawk at her. 

I personally can't and haven't seen any bars yet, I would like to since we know they are there. 

I added the extra source for the *nervous wreck* Lizzie as an edit.
I'm thinking maybe she was a hypochondriac, because that would fill a need for attention if nothing else is going on.  It would also add  melodrama to her life if things got boring.
(This part is my speculation after knowing a person who had Narcissistic Personality-- the person seemed to end up in the emergency room a lot, with someone waiting HOURS for them.)

MAYBE that was just a fictional invention to suggest that young men were afraid of Lizzie? Surely they would have dealt with a servant, not the mistress of the house? Don't assume today's habits for those of a bygone century.

Lizzie, supposedly, was a magnet for gawkers.  The papers say that the drummers coming to town on the train, would be rounded up and driven past Lizzie's house.
There are also possibilities of scavengers who take pieces of the property.  Apparently they still do.  And obviously people still stop outside her house, some in busses, to gawk.
So that kind of unwanted attention still goes on today and yes, transcends the century.
I would think that Lizzie, answering her own phone, would also not deny herself full ownership of that house and would go where she wanted when she wanted.  It's very possible it was inconvenient to her freedom to transverse her home to have errand boys or grocery boys about.

BTW:  There is the story in the papers about the trees outside Second Street being denuded at carriage-height after the trial.  People taking leaves!?  People taking branches and twigs!?

Thanks, Kat.  Thats exactly what my thought was, whether the errand boys dealt with the maid, cook, housekeeper, butler or driver, it was Lizzie's house, she could be anywhere at anytime.  I don't think she'd want to have to scurry from a room just because a delivery boy stopped in for payment or to drop off something. 

Good post Kat and it's an interesting question whether Lizzie liked the attention. Perhaps, sometimes yes and other times no.  I think it would be the constant attention that would grate anyone's nerves. There is that interesting interview with Russell Lake in Joyce William's "A Casebook of Family and Crime in the 1890's" (page 264+) where he cites this Lizzie incident:

"Miss Borden was a figure of curiosity and mystery to everyone in the country at this particular period. She could not go anywhere without being recognized and embarrassed by stares from gathering crowds. I remember going shopping with my mother. We went to the largest dry goods store on Main Street, E. S. Brown & Co., owned by Harry Brown, a neighbor and friend of our family. When we came out of the store, Miss Borden's carriage and coachman were at the curb. Someone had recognized her carriage. There were at least 25 or 30 curiosity seekers standing around, waiting for her to come out of the store, so that they might get a look and pass some remarks."

In the classic collection, MURDERERS INK, Ellen Stern (Stein?) has, as I recall, an article called "The Day I Ripped Off Lizzie's House."  She talks about running up from her boyfriend's idling car and snapping a piece of paint off the then off-limits house on Second Street.  She encased it in plastic and carried it in her pocketbook for years, until she lost it.

I wonder if, years later, she ever bought a brick?

I agree about the attention.  I was just thinking about this.
I do think even actors get tired of attention/infamy/notoriety and therefore human nature would swing back & forth between wanting isolation and wanting attention.

I think attention is also addictive, but maybe not in a personally harmful way.

I could just see Lizzie now, wanting to stir up the town a bit and just get dressed up and go to do some shopping like the Queen (Elizabeth l).
I can also see her in a down mode holed up at Maplcroft, maybe drinking, or somehow altering her perceptions medicinally.



(Message last edited Sep-25th-03  12:07 PM.)

But wasn't Prohibition more or less in effect during those years?

The fact of non-mention should also rule this out. There are NO stories about Lizzie's tippling, then or now. Or will somebody create one?

I've pretty much decided to my satisfaction that Lizzie, if she did it or was a part of the murders, enjoyed her drugs.  We even had proof of her continuing morphine availability during her incarceration.
Other members here have proved to my satisfaction that drugs were available and liquor in patent medicines even through mail order.
I think the murders were possibly drug enhanced because of the overkill.
We've seen it in Manson, in the OJ case and now here.
It was probably easier to get stuff back then, unregualted.

Drugs/Liquor? Nothing suggests this.  These days everyone is on
prozac or something, or drinks alcohol.  NOT in Lizzie's day.
Don't manufacture 2003 morals to 1892, yikes what a surprising post.

Nancie, I have done a lot of research on the Victorian era, & drug use was a major problem of the time.  Victorian children in particular were typically given very strong doses of substances like cocaine & morphine in over-the-counter medicines & tonics.  Very easy to become an addict at an early age.  Opium, hashish, marijuana, etc were yet to be made illegal substances.  Alcohol was hidden in medicines & tonics, & probably consumed by many unsuspecting WCTU ladies.  It was very common for workers to be under the influence of something while on the job.  These problems became so prevalent during Victorian times, this is why we now have the substance control laws we have today.

(Message last edited Sep-26th-03  12:01 AM.)

This is very fuzzy in my mind but I think I remember reading somewhere that there was an opium den, or rumors of an opium den, right on or near Second Street.

I thought it said they were somehow connected to one of the two Chinese laundries.

Does anyone else remember anything on this?

(Message last edited Sep-25th-03  10:57 PM.)

Answering to my own question.

Aha, I knew I wasn't crazy. I found the opium discussion in the archives:

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Archive203/FallRiver/FRopiumdens.htm

Edisto found references to it in Victorian Vistas. Thank you Edisto!

This is my opinion and not necessarily those of the members who posted to prove the discussion was had here about the availabilty of drugs in common usage in Victorian times.
They may not agree that the murders look like they were committed on drugs, I don't know.
But as I said, we do know morphine was available to Lizzie (prescribed) for quite a while yet she wasn't physically hurt to need it. (I did specify available, I did not specify she took the prescription because I don't  know).
Drugs do enter into the equation somewhere just thanks to Dr. Bowen.

I once read that people on morphine or heroin become sleepy and not likely to be a danger. Its when they're looking for the money to buy drugs when they are a problem. It may be cheaper to spend a few dollars in "treatment" than to house and feed them.
But that's politics, and not really part of this topic.
...
It is "speed" methamphetamines that crank up a person to commit outrageous acts. (Like that case earlier this year where two air force captains attacke Canadian troops.) "Nazi crank" was how they pepped up their troops, Red Army troops used the classic whiskey (vodka) method. Well known to our troops in the 19th century, and perhaps later.

(Message last edited Sep-26th-03  11:31 AM.)

What drugs were being used by Nicole and Ron? That's a new one!!!
Nicole only had the remnants of her 8pm glass of wine; Ron was sober.

It's not the victims I claim use drugs it's the murderer!
Nicole was high on ice cream?

Yes meth, or cocaine would do the trick, wire someone up to kill if they wanted a push over the edge.  Too much coca-cola?
And Bundy used alcohol to lower his inhibitions.
It doesn't need to be morphine to kill, it's just morphine given by Bowen which brought her down, whether Lizzie was high or not for the murders if she committed them.  If she kept on downers like morphine or alcohol later in life it might restrain her from ever errupting again.

Why are you saying or assuming "murderer"? The autopsy suggests two knives, hence two murderers. One with a double edge, like a stilletto; the other with a flat edge, like a hunting knife. This report is in Freed & Briggs "Killing Time".

Tina Kate, I appreciate your knowledge of the Victorian Era, and
drug use, etc.  but is there any indication or proof that Lizzie
was doing drugs or drinking?  We know that Dr. Bowen gave her "something" to calm her nerves, morphine or whatever but to
label Lizzie a drug addict or drunk now is not fair. There is no
proof of anything like that in her life. 

Please Ray, I'm really discussing the Borden case here.  I can't argue OJ as well.  I will leave it that There were induications that the murderer (OJ?) of Nicole was on drugs and that OJ bought drugs that night with Kato.
I said Manson slaughter = drugs
Oj crime = drugs
Bundy crimes = alcohol
OVERKILL.
The Bordens were Overkilled.
That's my comparison.

NJ.. Lizzie was given morphine for how long?  She wasn't in pain.  She hadn't a limb removed.  See how simple it was for Bowen to get Lizzie onto morphine?
Fact.
All the other stuff about drugs is my considered opinion, speculation.  I have said that over & over.  But there are indications of such in the murders - to me- so please don't worry that I am starting a rumor.  It's a theory I kick around when I can.  I trust the members here can tell the difference.  I should be able to discuss a theory here, I would hope.

Morphine tincture, then or now?, is a remedy for diarrhea (which the family seemed to have that week).
Is there any reported fact that Lizzie was using before this?
...
Kat, do you have ANY evidence (from blood drops) that OJ or Kato were doing drugs that night? Shame on you for blaming a suspect that has seen his life ruined by planted evidence.

If you take the time to look it up, you will learn that the lead detective visited the morgue to get blood samples of Nicole and Ron. "Very unusual" said the ME.

(Message last edited Sep-27th-03  2:05 PM.)

quote Kat: "Lizzie was given Morphine for how long?"
I don't know, is there any proof she was given it after
her ordeal?  Or before?  Seems we would have proof of drug
use if there was any.  People were quick to report her as a
klepto and gossip about her friendship with Nance, talking to
the squirrels, anything about her was game.  NO gossip or reports
about her being a drunk or druggie. 

Trial
Bowen
327
Q.  What was it?
A.  Sulphate of morphine.

Q.   Well, what is commonly called morphine?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  You directed morphine to be taken?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  In what doses?
A.  One-eighth of a grain.

Q.  When?
A.  Friday night, at bed-time.

Q.  The next day you changed that?
A.  I did not change the medicine, but doubled the dose.

Q.  That was on Saturday?
A.  On Saturday.

Q.  Did you continue the dose on Sunday?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Did you continue it Monday?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  And on Tuesday?
A.  Yes, sir.
........
328+

Q.  I ask you about the morphine that you were giving her and you tell me on Friday you gave one-eighth of a grain, which is the ordinary dose, I understand, mild dose, and on Saturday you doubled it, you gave it, sent it, and she had it on Monday and Tuesday, and how long did she continue to have it?
A.  She continued to have that all the time she was in the station house.

Q.  After her arrest, was it not?
A.  And before.

Q. In other words she had it all the time up to the time of her arrest, the hearing and while in the station house?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  So that if before the arrest, she was one, two, or three days before the private inquest, she was there when she had been given for several days this double dose of morphine?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  I suppose physicians well understand the effect of morphine on the mind and on the recollection, don't they?

Page 329

A.  Supposed to, yes, sir.

Q.  Is there any question about it?
A.  No, sir.

Q.  Do you know whether she had ever had occasion before to have morphine prescribed for her, as far as you know?
A.  I don't remember that she had.

Q.  Does not morphine given in double doses to allay mental distress and nervous excitement somewhat effect the memory and change and alter the view of things and give people hallucinations?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  There is no doubt about it, is there?
A.  No, sir.

MR. ADAMS. I have no further question.


RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.


Q.  (By Mr. Moody.)   How many times did you personally see her take the medication?
A.  Not more than twice, I think.

Q.  When were those two times?
A.  Between one and two in the afternoon, of Thursday.

Q.  And that was bromo caffeine?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Is bromo caffeine a medicine which has a tendency to create hallucinations a week or so after it has been taken?
A.  No, sir.



....
I claimed not to know If Lizzie took the morphine tho it was prescribed.  Seems reasonable that she did.  The excuse was one used in the determination as to whether her Inquest testimony was admissable.
The fact is Lizzie was given drugs and it compromised her only testimony.
Now, after all that time how is she to get off the drugs?
Anyway, it was in her favor to be doped, we can't have it both ways.

Lizzie was given morphine from Friday to Friday, or Friday to Thursday night then, if she left the station house Friday to be transferred to Taunton.  Some news reports have her on it until trial!
The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook, pg. 104:
Thursday night after her arrest "Later in night Dr. Bowen again called, and it was reported that the prisoner was quite ill.  The doctor remained with her a short time only, and at 9 o'clock the matron's room was closed for the night."

Articles pg.s 106 describe Lizzie's journey to Taunton on the train with Mr. Buck, Hilliard and Seaver, and that she never spoke, and took no notice of anything.  Another article described her gaze as *unseeing*.  As she walked to her cell there was "no sign of consciousness".

I think we had this conversation.  Maybe it's in archives?


(Message last edited Sep-28th-03  4:49 AM.)

I agree that it was a possibility.  Drug use wasn't talked about as it is now.  Alcohol was the most prevalent abuse & what gave birth to the WCTU.  Drugs were readily available, even without a doctor's prescription, in all kinds of over-the-counter remedies.  Much easier to hide drug abuse than say, alcohol abuse.  Lizzie's lifestyle was such that she could have easily been a closet addict.

Morphine has a calming effect.  A guilty Lizzie could well have been abusing a cocaine based substance, which apparently gives the illusion of omnipotence. 

I sometimes wonder if it's possible Bowen might have suspected/seen signs of substance abuse in Lizzie.  Like Kat mentioned, he easily put her on the morphine & for quite a long period of time.

I've read quite a few books on the oj case but not recently.
Shame on you ray for saying shame on me.

Could this explain difficulties in her testimony?
I don't know what is now considered "the normal dose".

I will apologize to you if you can cite ANY published book that proves either Nicole, Ron, OJ, or Kato "had drugs in their system".

The autopsy found the remnants of that small glass of wine that Nicole had for supper. Unless you were speaking about the real killers? And how would you know?

I've also seen those postcards that have advertisements from 100+ years ago.  There was an ad from the Bayer company for over-the-counter heroine!  I remember seeing something on the History Channel about early drugs and how they thought morphine was the wonder drug until they found out you could become addicted, so someone discovered heroine as the new wonder drug to replace morphine, but then it was discovered THAT was addictive and then (I think) they moved on to cocaine.(opium is in there somewhere,too) Good grief.  I can't remember the time frames for each drug, so I can't be sure which was in vogue during Lizzie's time, but I agree it wouldn't have been something people commented on because it was regular medicine back then and didn't have the stigma it has today. After that show some friends and I commented on the fact that we now know why Victorian children always looked so wan and pale and morose in photos. They were whacked out on opium!  Aaah, those were the days.

Benjamin, here's a disturbing image I posted earlier this year from a trade card; addicted children clutching @ the bottle --



I originally found this picture in a book, "Opium, A Portrait of the Heavenly Demon" by Barbara Hodgson, 1999

Here's some of the accompanying text --

"...A far wider spread phenomenon was found in the patent medicine trade.  From the mid-nineteenth century until about 1910, thousands of American and British babies were raised on opium-laced soothing syrups designed to stop the crying brought on by weaning, teething or hunger."

Wow!  Thanks!

It sounds good to me too right about now.
I recall the babies of the east end suckled with gin so they'd sleep while mom went out to do business, during the Jack the R. days.

During Nazi-occupied France, milk was often impossible to get. Mothers gave their babies beer (boiled to remove alcohol). Beer is "liquid bread", invented by monastics for their fasts (no solid food).

Yes, they did put opium in children's (and adult's) medications prior to 20th century. Do you know what is in YOUR sleeping pills?

Wow I didn't know that, beer invented by religious groups?
And morphine in babies bottles?  This is all a bit hard to
take.  I think I need some proof of this outragous stuff.

Beer goes back to the Egyptians, like bread.
Bread was the secret weapon of the Egyptian army, it could march w/o stopping to cook grain over fires. Khymy (chemistry) refers to the original name for Egypt (I think), the inventors of chemistry.
Modern beer, brewed w/ hops (a relative of mariuana), dates to the late 18th century; earlier they often used berries & fruits.

The age-old problem was to preserve foods for future months. Beer is one way to do it. It is also preferred to water, which may contain germs etc. The Pilgrims carried many casks of beer, safer than water. You can look it up.

Heres a link to a site on the history of beer, from what is stated here, beer was actually made with bread at the beginning.

http://www.alabev.com/history.htm

re: "Do you know what's in YOUR sleeping pills?"
      As long as I get a good night's sleep and don't wake up groggy, I figure that's a question best left unasked! 

Is morphine made out of opium?

I thought this was the whole point of Victorianism.  It's not some sweet, lacy-doily world - it's a seemy place where human's baser nature was nurtured in secret and in private.
As long as no one talked no one was shocked.
The civilized world still went 'round and 'round but the dark side went underground.

Morphine is the principle active chemical ingredient found in opium.  Opium comes from the sap of specific kinds of poppies grown in places such as India, the middle east & China.  So, essentially they are the same thing, altho opium is processed poppy sap.

Heroin is a semi-synthetic substance derived from morphine by structural modification.  As mentioned in Benjamin's post, it came to prominence via a German chemist @ Bayer in 1898.  So, we can safely assume Lizzie wasn't a heroine addict.

My guess if Lizzie had an addiction, most likely it was some form of cocaine.

(Message last edited Sep-30th-03  12:51 AM.)

Wasn't Freud sposed to have been a cocaine addict or
something? I'm sure these upstanding moral Victorian
people were not thinking about getting high when they
took medicine, they just wanted to feel better. Often???
It may not be a popular opinion, but I don't think addicted
people are bad or evil or anything like that, I think they
are people who tried something and then couldn't stop. I
can't imagine frowning on someone from 100 years ago because
they liked drinking cough syrup. Sometimes you just have to
do what you have to do.

Yes.  In that special I'd seen they talked about the fact that there were very few anti-biotics or medicines of any kind that had any real effect.(I think Doctors were still debating the value of washing your hands before surgery).  The special said that morphine, etc. was so popular simply because it was the first thing available that would stop the pain.  There was an example of children with whooping cough who were up all night and exhausted and many times died, and the fact that the morphine knocked them out so they could get some rest actually did a lot towards helping them recover. Their little bodies just needed a break. I'd be swigging back the Vicks if it was a choice between morphine or a "bleeding".
  I still can't get over that ad with the little kids climbing all over that medicine bottle. Adorable and (from a 100 years distance) really odd.

I don't think it's the Victorians, who we have admitted, didn't know any better...I think it is us being frowned upon for even thinking such a thing about Lizzie.

I think if Lizzie was around today no one would hesitate
to call her names, if she was in a funk after the murders &
her doctor saw fit to medicate her that would be discussed
and no one would mince words about her drug use, even if they
were from her doctor. You can be just as big of a drug addict
from prescription drugs as you can the others.

Freud was practically driven out of the medical profession for his use and advocacy of cocaine. He then invented a new profession, which has paid some very well, even if it hasn't done much good.

Some years ago somebody who read Freud's papers wrote a book debunking his research and theories. Anyone here read it?

(Message last edited Sep-30th-03  2:00 PM.)

Advertisers were no more perverse a century ago than today?

You seem to have a very high opinion of Victorians. Why?

You could read some history books about their times. No better or worse than today; just different styles.

You could read about the career of "Nellie Bly" a newspaper reporter of that time. Her pen name; real name was "Pink" Cochran(e).

See post #60