1. "Lizzie and jewelry"
Posted by emma on May-4th-03 at 9:09 PM

This might seem an odd question but does anyone know if Lizzie regularly wore any rings on her fingers? In the photograph of her where she is holding on to the back of a chair it appears that she is wearing a ring on her left ring finger. Does anyone else see this? Does anyone have any other info on this topic? The reason I'm asking is because I'm playing Lizzie in a play, as I think I told you a little while ago, and I want to know what jewelry I should wear, if any.

Good timing on the question. I happened to be reading Lizzie's will so I knew there were entries there.

Apparently Lizzie was quite fond of rings.  Rebello lists a few entries as well as the will.

Page 237, from the Fall River Daily Herald, June 23, 1893:

"...On what is usually called the engagement finger was a ring containing several stones of different colors set after a common design...."

Page 308:

"Lizzie purchased a ring set with three sapphires and two diamonds for $169.00. Between 1899 and 1905, Lizzie purchased four ring sets with diamonds worth a total of $1,545.00 according to the Diamond Record Book of Gifford Jewelry Store." - Source: Fall River Historical Society.

Page 331+ - Lizzie's will left the following:

"Lady's Yellow Gold Tiffany Diamond Ring - $1,500.00
1 Diamond about 3 carats

Lady’s Yellow Gold 3-Stone Diamond Ring -    900.00
1 Diamond about 1 1/2 carats
2 Diamonds about 1 1/4 carats each

Lady's Yellow Gold Twisted 2-Stone Diamond Ring 500.00
2 Diamonds about 1 1/4 carat each
6 small diamonds"


(Message last edited May-4th-03  9:40 PM.)

Wow, Harry that was good!
Very interesting question too, Emma.

You say Rebello saw records that say Lizzie bought over $1500 worth of jewelry at Giffords??!!
They had a nerve spreading that story of Lizzie as shoplifter there!!!!!  That's Not Cool.

Really, that's like 30 grand today!  Talk about biting the hand that feeds you...

Actually...weren't the Gifford family related to the Bordens?  (An Oliver E. Gifford was called to serve on the jury, but he was excused as he claimed to be a relative of Lizzie).

Victorian Fall River seems more & more incestuous...

A well known picture of Lizzie (c. 1890) shows a Pansy pin. Two other photographs (c. 1880/1885)show her wearing ball and dart earrings.  I have been trying to locate copies of the latter item on eBay for several years without success.

When my husband retired last year, I suggested as a project that he either design and make a pair of orb-and-arrow earrings for me or commission someone else to do so.  No results yet.  I'm not holding my breath.  I look for them constantly at antique shows.  Victorian earrings are somewhat hard to find anyway, although there are plenty of other pieces of jewelry from that time.  Supposedly that was a fairly common design in an earlier era.  They might have been handed down to Lizzie from her mother or another family member.
I also recall that Lizzie sometimes wore an enamel pin with a portrait of a child.  It was mentioned in one of the newspaper accounts of what she wore to her trial.

Those earrings of Lizzie's appear to be for pierced ears.  Would it be safe, Edisto, to guess that most Victorian earrings were such or were later models clip-ons or screw-backs?  (Oops, forgot to add that.)



I've noticed that towards the 1890s, earrings seemed to go out of favor.  That seems to be the only photo of our Lizzie with earrings on.                                                                                                                                      The enamel portrait pin sounds interesting!  I wonder if it may have been a portrait of Lizzie's dead sister, Alice?  You know how the Victorians were with their mourning jewelry.

(Message last edited May-5th-03  11:27 PM.)

I think clip-ons were invented or first used in the 1920's
or so. I read that somewhere, no idea where. I love those
earrings -- what are they anyway? I always thought they were
little planets.

Sigh!  Yes...I've always wanted a pair of those.

Heads up, Stef...if you can find a good costume jewelry maker...GREAT item for the site!

I don't know how the jewelry store Giffords were related to the *cloakmaker* Gifford, but that Hannah Gifford shared a common ggrandfather with Andrew, her maiden name being Borden..  She was married to Perry Gifford, a dry-goods and fancy-goods dealer.  She was widowed in 1898.
"Ellie Gifford" lived with Hannah Gifford, and she was related to "Arthur L. Gifford, a Fall River watchmaker and jeweler."  (Hoffman)

Terence notes in our copy, that Oliver E. was a cousin by marriage through a *Minerva C. Morse", who was a cousin of Sarah Morse.

(Message last edited May-5th-03  9:57 PM.)

A copy from my own post:

http://www.arborwood.com/awforums/show-topic-1.php?start=11&fid=27&taid=1&topid=1083

"Allow me to introduce you to Mrs. Gifford.
Whenever the shoplifting tales are recounted, Mrs. Gifford always comes to mind.
She is a past curator of the Fall River Historical Society, and her husband owned Gifford's Jewlery Store.
Information from someone who knew those who knew her said about Gifford's store that if there was a society wedding in Fall River on a smaller scale, you went to Gifford's for the gift.  If it was a bit higher echelon, you went to Tilden-Thurber in Providence...if it was a huge deal, you went to Tiffany, and in that order.

Now Mr. Gifford may have, one day, come home joking about Lizzie Borden.  It seemed like something he might do.  And His wife took him seriously, but did not discuss it, and it became a story told without any proof or back-up.  It was believed by Mrs. Gifford as TRUE, otherwise she would not have repeated the story.  It is thought by some that it was all a
misunderstanding...and then there was the Tilden-Thurber incident , which no one seems able to explain.

Mrs. Gifford is in Rebello, pg. 478, 485, & 500.
She is also in deMille, Dance of Death, pg. 106:

deMille, as footnote:
' * Mrs. Gifford, Miss Winslow's successor at the Fall River Historical Society, told me that whenever Miss Borden entered her husband's jewelry store it was understood she was never to be left alone for a minute with any of the merchandise. Even so, she was able to filch items from time to time. They were added without comment to her bill and she paid without remonstrance, performing a neat act of oblivion.'

--It might be possible to understand how a story came about by Seeing the possibilites inherent in this recounting, and the next from Rebello, pg. 500:

'Lizzie Borden: Did She Do It?' Hartford Courant, Hartford, CT, August 16, 1971: 2.

'Interview with eighty-five year old Mrs. Ellis Gifford, curator of the Fall River Historical Society, recalled Lizzie as a kleptomaniac. She knew Lizzie but didn't like her much. Mrs. Gifford said, "She [Lizzie] wasn't ostracized, but, she was ignored ... people didn't mingle with her." Mrs. Gifford's husband owned Gifford's Jewelry Store in Fall River. He watched Lizzie "very carefully'"when she came to the store. Mrs. Gifford went on to state that "the clerks would watch her carefully if my husband was busy. She had plenty of money to buy everything she wanted. It was a compulsion." Mrs. Gifford believed Lizzie murdered her parents. She said, "Nobody thought about it [Borden murders] once it was over. It was only when people came in and started to write books about it that anybody got interested in it." '

-Now, here are 2 other cites to what ELSE Mrs. Gifford had to say about our Lizzie:

Rebello, pg 485:
'I wish that girl had never been born.' (Mrs. Ellis Gifford, former Director of the Fall River Historical Society, according to Mrs. Florence Brigham.)

--When questioned, gave a quote during debates as to including Lizzie Borden in the Tourism Trade of Fall River, and capitalizing on her infamy.
---------
Rebello, pg. 478:
Upon the premiere of The Legend movie, and asked if she watched the film Mrs. Gifford said:
'I am sick of Lizzie.' "








(Message last edited May-6th-03  3:56 AM.)

I've been looking at Civil War era clipart & photographs
trying to see a design like Lizzie's earrings -- oddly
enough the one that reminds me of them most is a skull &
crossbones.

Rebello
Page 231

"She [Lizzie, during an interview with Mrs. McGuirk, reporter for the New York Recorder, formerly of the Fall River Daily Globe] wore a pretty plum-colored gown, a pattern dress with embossed velvet bands of trimming, a narrow white ruche and a pretty brooch with a little child's head upon it, at the throat, and then there was a dainty white apron over the skirt front." Fall River Daily Globe, September 8, 1892: 7.

and

Page 233

"She [Lizzie] came to the into the courtroom just before 3 o'clock attired as she had been on the other days, excepting that the cheap enamel pin, a gaudy hued pansy which she wore at her throat was not worn, but the large pin with the innocent face of a child painted upon it, which she has generally worn, was substituted." Fall River Daily Globe, June 8, 1893: 1.

Thanks, Kat.  Wow, that painted quite a picture in my mind, don't know if you read into those 2 articles like I did?  Lizzie's pansy pin is described as gaudy; loud, ostentatious, tastelessy ornamented.  The pin of the child's face is innocent.  Do you think the change may have been something that Jennings or Robinson suggested to Lizzie?  From loud ornamentation to innocent?  Just a thought. 

Very interesting topic Emma.  I was wondering after reading what Harry posted which rings, if any, Lizzie wore before she inherited and bought all those expensive genuine stone rings. Also wonder if if later years she wore any of those expensive stone rings or ring sets all the time, perhaps choosing one one day and another another day. Or perhaps saving those for her travels out of town, etc.

Her servants would have noticed which rings she wore around the French St. house, as Emma would have.  Perhaps you wanted to know so you could wear the right rings at the right times during the play, that is, if you are portraying Lizzie before, during and after the murders (I don't know what time period you are playing).

I remember some talk on another link a long time ago that maybe the ring Lizzie gave Andrew was not buried with him, but Lizzie or Emma might have retrieved it and that was a ring she wore on her own finger after that. I am not sure if there is any definite evidence that the ring was buried with Andrew.   

Yes, indeed. I am playing Lizzie ten years after the murders, so she probably would have acquired many of the ring sets by that time. I think it would make the most sense, however, to only wear jewelry which there is a record of her wearing, instead of assuming incorrectly what she wore during this period. It's too bad there isn't more documentation about Lizzie after the trial, it would be so interesting to hear from her French Street servants or her neighbours about what she was like later in life. 

The undertaker Winwood at trial could not remember if Andrew went to his grave with Lizzie's ring.


In the photo taken of Lizzie soon after the trial, probably in Newport resting, there is only what looks like a plain band on her ring finger of her left hand.  I had once questioned if this was the ring she had supposedly once given Andrew.  (Probably many others had wondered the same?)
Note please, that Emma says Andrew was buried with Lizzie's ring on his finger. [Trial, 1530]



BTW:  What looks like a 5th finger was part of the chair-back she was gripping.

(Message last edited May-11th-03  1:34 AM.)

It's possible that Lizzie wore her mother's wedding ring as a memento.  It probably should have gone to Emma as the older daughter, but it seems Lizzie was good at grabbing the best stuff for herself.
(I have a sister like that, but at least she never employs hatchets.)

Am not sure there is any evidence that Lizzie grabbed the best stuff for herself. No one really nows the circumstances of Emma's leaving Maplecroft but if Lizzie had taken anything from her they didn't agree upon in the process it would have come out.  Emma and Lizzie had different physiques so Lizzie didn't grab any of Emma's clothes.  Emma didn't like the limelight so Lizzie didn't grab any of that from emma. It was Emma wasn't it that said it was her idea the sisters change rooms after Lizzie came back from Europe at the age of 30, that meant that Emma had the best room all that time.  Have never heard it said in testimony or newspaper articles that Lizzie took anything away from her friends either. Would like to know more about what exactly Lizzie grabbed from anyone? 

Possibly your definition of "grab" is narrower than mine.  I don't mean that Lizzie physically walked up to someone and snatched an item out of his/her hands.  I mean that it appears she often wound up with the best/biggest of things.  One example is the larger bedroom.  Even if Emma did offer it (and of course Emma might have said that only to make Lizzie look better), Lizzie didn't have to take it, did she?  Of the dresses hanging in the large closet near the stairs, the majority were reported to be Lizzie's.  She and Emma moved into Maplecroft together but Lizzie was the one who wound up living there alone and on her own terms, although she apparently repaid Emma for the privilege.  Emma seemingly spent the rest of her life as a boarder.  I think there's ample evidence (for me anyway; maybe not for you) that Lizzie was the kind of person who knew how to get the goodies for herself.

(Message last edited May-11th-03  9:06 PM.)

She had the trip to Europe (which maybe she financed, do you suppose?), and she had her sealskin cape.  It sounds as though she gets more clothes more often then Emma.
Emma remarks that Lizzie order's a lot of goods from Deane's.
And  She certainly did pick the undertaker...

What is Deane's and where does Emma refer to the fact that Lizzie ordered a lot of goods from Deane's? I'm curious to know where Lizzie made purchases and what kind of purchases.

What is Deane's and where does Emma refer to the fact that Lizzie ordered a lot of goods from Deane's? I'm curious to know where Lizzie made purchases and what kind of purchases.

sorry about the double post, my mouse slipped...

This would be before the deaths.
In Emma's Inquest testimony:
109
Q.  Do you know where the marketing was done?
A.  No.

Q.  Didnt have any particular place?
A.  We always had the groceries from Mr. Wades. and John M. Deane's. My sister used to order a great many things from John M. Deane's.

Q.  Was that a meat market?
A.  No Sir.

--Wades was apparently for groceries, That was the next building south of the Kelly's house.  I don't know what Deane's was or where.  I could check...or someone can check?

(Message last edited May-12th-03  12:00 AM.)

Sorry.
Checked Rebello. 563.
No shop called Deane's appears on his map including the streets Second, Borden and So. Main.

I've checked everything I have except the City Directory for 1859.

Checked:
1880 Federal Census data collected in parts here:
William St, Tripp St., Second St. x 2, Rodman, Pleasant, June, Prospect,Dinman,Annawan,Pochasset & Almond for "Deane".

Checked "Organizations of Corporations", "Fall River Illustrated", "Fall River History", "Fall River Directory for 'B' " (x2).
These are partial sources from online sites, probably UMass, that are stored in my computer.

No  Deane

[edit added info]:
Checked Victorian Vistas vol.II, and there is mention of a "Lyman Deane" at a Harvard Club dinner with the Mayor, among others, Feb. 1st, 1890.

Checked the Fall River City Directory, 1859.
There are 3 "Dean" s in business:.
-Apollos Dean (no "e" on the end), "provision dealer", house 5 Rock .
-Charles H. Dean, "dry goods dealer" 15 S. Main
-William Dean, "dresser tender", 45 Rock.

I'm done, I think.
Interesting search.
Oh, and no Deane in Hoffman.  Knowlton (214-215) has 3 "Dean"'s, one made Lizzie's jury, all 3 were considered.  2 are farmers, one had no bio.

(Message last edited May-12th-03  1:19 AM.)

It may not even be in Fall River, although if it's food it probably is. 

(Message last edited May-12th-03  1:11 AM.)

You know, I hadn't thought of food.
I was thinking more like gee-gaws or furnishings for her room, or even books?

That's a question for Michael Martins or Neilson Caplain.

It could be mail-order even, maybe?

No, I think a person has to be careful in the use of words. Grab has a very definite negative view of a person's motivations. It defines a person who seizes, snatches, illegally takes, is forcible, of rough or grasping means. I believe this is your conclusion, which is way beyond what you said, that Lizzie wound up with or just knew how to get the best for herself.

I do not feel Lizzie can be proved to have had a negative motivation for the things you mention. Emma had the large bedroom for all of the years they lived in that house save two years, that does not signify to me that Lizzie seized the room suddenly to give herself the goodies. She cannot be guilty of taking the room away from Emma for herself if it was an exchange, she cannot be guilty of taking the room away from Emma because she accepted the room. In fact, I wonder why Emma did not offer the room sooner to Lizzie.

That Lizzie had more dresses than Emma isn't that Lizzie grabbed more dresses for herself from Emma or anyone else. They both had accounts, money to buy whatever they needed, if Lizzie wanted to spend her money on dresses and Emma didn't then Lizzie is not guilty of grabbing anything from anyone. We simply do not know and I think it is silly to assume that because Lizzie had more dresses she grabbed more space in the closet from Emma, because we do not know that Emma simply did not desire, need or want as many dresses.

Lizzie and Emma lived in Maplecroft together for over ten years and Emma moved out. There is no evidence Lizzie grabbed Emma's part, and Emma's decision to remain a boarder rather than buy a house for herself is indicative more of her desire to not own a house of her own (because she at her death had an even larger estate than Lizzie and could well afford to buy any house she wanted) than it is of Lizzie being a grabby person, willfully taking something from Emma.

Very good reasoning. But sisters (and brothers) can live together in an inherited house. Sometimes something happens to pull them apart. We shall never know the truth in this.

Being about ten years younger may have influenced her tastes. Emma seems to have followed the older tradition: use it up, wear it out, make do or do without.

Quite so.

Emma -- getting VERY close to the show now.

Could you pls tell me how much tickets for the show cost & if they can be purchased @ the door on performance nights?

Thanks!

Sure! The tickets are $8, and they can be purchased at the door. There is limited seating available though, because the space is quite intimate. There are only fifty seats available for each performance. There is a matinee on Thursday, the 22nd at 3:45pm, and two evening shows at 7pm Thursday and Friday. I hope you'll be able to come!:)

I hope someone will be taking pictures and sharing with
us -- this is almost like the forum's first baby.

Oh, yes, good idea!  Tina-Kate, you'll be there, any possibility of pics of the play?  If I was there, I would love to see it, I try to support the arts wherever and whenever I can. 

I'm gonna try to make it.  Depending on my schedule, I might even be able to make the matinee.

Grr -- I don't have a digicam!  What a lousy reporter am I!  I WILL come back & write a mini review here tho.

Carol, you seem to have a lot of difficulty separating out facts cited by another poster from that person's opinions or assumptions based on facts.  I have a right to express my opinions and assumptions here, as do you.  Calling another poster's opinions "silly" might be construed as flaming, which is prohibited in this Forum, as it should be. I'm not alone in being the target of your rancor (judging by the emails I get from others here), and I suspect some of us are getting quite tired of it.  You might want to ask yourself why you feel the need to engage in this sort of behavior. Jealousy?  Dyspepsia?  Something unpleasant going on in your life and a need to take your negative feelings out on others?  A need to make yourself look good at the expense of others?  Fear that your own opinions don't have any merit?  All of the above?

(Sorry to be o/t folks, but this has gone on quite long enough for me and probably for the rest of you too.)

(Message last edited May-16th-03  9:46 AM.)

Why can't we all just get along?

I'd betcha $100 those were the last words of Abby Borden.

Kimberly!  That was hilarious!!

Right on, Kimberly! I'm with you!  (But can you PROVE that Abby said that?)

Um, yeah.

We just finished taking pictures on Thursday of the cast in full costume. I will try to get a hold of some to post here. It might take me a little while to get them, but I'll do my darndest! You can all see me as Lizzie!

Thanks, Emma.  That would be wonderful! 

You must be having a lot of fun! I wish we
could all be in it.

Yeah, it's so interesting to play Lizzie. Getting into her head and trying to fully understand her is challenging but also extremely fascinating! 

I think you need to go in for a nice long massage, Edisto, with lots of nice soothing music and a nice long hot bath after that. Maybe then you can return to discussing the issues here and not attacking other members on the forum.

Humor is wonderful, but somehow if it had been your mother or loved one who had been hatcheted to death, I doubt if you would be inclined to make such a joke of it.

I think you need to go in for a nice long massage, Carol, with lots of nice soothing music and a nice long hot bath after that. Maybe then you can return to discussing the issues here and not attacking other members on the forum.

You must be really *with-it*, with your humor, Kimberly.  Right up there with a Staff writer for Newsday and writer for USA Today, AND having fun as Ms. McGinn hopes.

Date: 01-02-1997; Publication: Newsday; Author: David Behrens
"A Whacky Look at Infamy / A documentary probes Lizzie Borden folklore

By David Behrens. STAFF WRITER


THE VERBAL strokes are swift, sharp, incisive and curiously,
unexpectedly funny  -  just the way a modern retelling of Lizzie
Borden's murderous tale ought to be. After so many re-tellings over  the years, the dreadful murder of Lizzie Borden's father and stepmother, 104 years ago in Fall River, Mass., has become genuine American folklore.
   Documentary filmmaker Immy Humes, in fact, subtitles her 30-minute documentary: 'A Whacky Talkie About America's First Celebrity Trial.'

What could be more today! "....
______

"A night at Lizzie Borden's Her house becomes a bed and breakfast/museum"
Date: 08-30-1996; Publication: USA Today;
Author: Deirdre R. Schwiesow

"FALL RIVER, Mass. -- Did she or didn't she? You can explore your own theory of the Lizzie Borden mystery here at the Lizzie Borden Bed & Breakfast/Museum."...

..." 'People are having fun, which is what we wanted,' says co-owner Martha McGinn. `'We're not endorsing double homicide at all.' ".... 

AND GUESS WHAT ELSE DEAR KIMBERLY??

Lois R. Shea, "That's hospitality: Lizzie Borden's house to open as B&B". , Minneapolis Star Tribune, 10-01-1995, pp 05G.

..."McGinn cheerfully lists the eerie coincidences linking her family with the Borden murders. She was born Aug. 4, 1954. Her brother Jack was born Aug. 4, 1958. Her grandparents were married Aug. 4, 1923, and bought this house on Aug. 4, 1948. "...

Well, you have MORE in common, than you thought!

--All articles supplied by Augusta.

That is kind of spooky, isn't it? They were living in the house
when the two August 4 babies were born right? I've only known one
other 8/4 baby in my life -- my 4th(!) grade schoolteacher.

And as to finding the humor in death -- I wasn't making fun of
Abby being killed, I just had a picture in my mind of her trying
to reason with the person who was about to kill her & saw that
post by RayS & it seemed to fit it exactly. I think it is fine
to mock death -- I would never say anything smart to the loved
ones of a person who had been murdered or just up & died but
I'm not one to not see the humor in something even if it is death.

  I for one do get and appreciate your sense of humor, Kimberly.  That is rather eerie, all those August 4ths!  Even if it was just coincedence, so many of them, all on the 4th. 

I'm not sure about this, but I have the feeling Martha was not born in the Borden house, nor were her parents living there at the time..  When she talks about growing up in the house, she never mentions her mother being there -- just her father and her grandparents.  (I know her mother is still around, however.)  If she had been born there, I feel sure she'd have mentioned it. Nevertheless, there certainly are a lot of coincidences there.  All those August 4 events.  I think I've known exactly one person born on that day.  He was a former boss of mine and one of the dearest people you'd ever want to meet, so everybody isn't influenced by being born under the "sign of Lizzie."

(Message last edited May-18th-03  11:23 PM.)

I like being born on August 4th -- and I like telling people
what happened on that day -- Lizzie Borden's parents were found
murdered. And should anyone refer to her as a "murderer" I set
them straight & tell them she was found not guilty. I hate
when people get my historical day wrong.


I was showing a friend a site on vintage pin-up girls (trying
to convince him to change his wallpaper to something a bit more
tasteful) and he said he liked Marilyn Monroe & I said I was born
on the day she died & he asked did that mean I was her -- like I
need that karma!

Oh, that's right.  I "know" two people who were born on August 4, and both of them seem pretty normal (not to mention smart). Also, both of them have a great sense of humor.

Well it is not only Lizzie day but Marilyn Monroe day! Her death day. 1962. Exactly 70 years after the murders in Fall River.

I would like to "flame" the others by saying that those who don't think like me are total idiots. (But if I ever change my mind then maybe they were right after all.)




Don't we all need a good laugh? Remember, nothing we say will change the facts, only our views of the facts. Unless we learn new facts.

I seem normal.

I think you and Edisto need to take that nice hot bath together, Kimberly, am sure you particularly would like that, be sure to soak your feet and heads too. 

"Humor is wonderful, but somehow if it had been your mother or loved one who had been hatcheted to death, I doubt if you would be inclined to make such a joke of it."

On second thought you would be inclined to make a joke of it. Ask Polly Klass' father if he thinks it's funny that his daughter was kidnapped and murdered.  Ask Laci Peterson's mother if she thinks Laci said to her murderer before she died, why can't we just all get along.  I bet she would just be rolling in the aisles at your good humor. 

You are just being childish now. And I'd advise you
not to start with me.

My -- what a devastating insult -- will I ever survive?

I'm with you Kimberly. Laughter is the best medicine, especially if the subject is taboo. If you look around the Intenet you will find oodles of references about doctors using death humor to get them through the day.

I think it's called a morbid sense of humor. Not like I would crack jokes at a funeral, unless it was the custom. I've never been to a wake, but I hear they get quite rauccus. In some cultures, laughing at death is a way to control the uncontrollable. If you can laugh at something it has no power over you.

Did you ever see the movie "The End"? It starred Burt Reynolds and all his cronies, plus had a lot of cameos by famous people. It was a comedy about a man dying of cancer and trying to figure out the best way to kill himself. It was so funny! In the end he decides to live and not kill himself. The only thng is that he is still going to die from cancer. So the ending is rather bittersweet. But still funny.

Yea! Someone understands! I have been to funerals before
where everyone talked & got to laughing about their life
with the passed away person -- not laughing about their
death, just about them -- the one in the coffin. I don't
make fun of people's misfortunes, but I see no problem in
treating people like people even if they are dead. I'm
not making fun of people because their loved ones died,
it isn't about that. Life goes on -- I don't speak in
hushed tones about the dead. I don't think it is funny
Abby was murdered -- I do understand how much she suffered.
I wasn't making fun of her pain & suffering -- just that
if it was Lizzie, she probably said something along that line. 

Did you ever see the Mary Tyler Moore show where the clown died and Mary couldn't stop laughing at the service? It was classic TV. It had to do with the way the clown died. Plus, let's not forget M*A*S*H. Lots of jokes and gallows humor. You have to or  you go crazy.

If Abby had died after getting her head stuck in a can of beans, that would be funny!

Oh no! That reminds me -- a few years back an elderly
woman here had gotten a new motorized wheelchair & she
got in the highway & was hit by a semi. Yep, it killed her.
She had only had it a few days & her neighbors said she was
zipping around everywhere in it. Everyone always "laughed" about
her trying to get it to go faster when she saw that 18-wheeler
bearing down on her -- you would think adrenaline alone
would have made her get up & run.

I cracked up when you said that about Abby getting her head
stuck in a can of beans -- that would get you made fun of!

I agree that few if any topics should be taboo when it comes to humor.  Everyone is free to laugh at my funeral, as far as I'm concerned, and I feel sure a few people will feel like doing just that.  I believe the Laci Peterson and Polly Klaas cases are too fresh in our memories for us to find anything funny about them.  A 111-year-old murder is fair game; however, some murders just aren't funny anyway, no matter how old they get.  And, there are some people on this earth who simply don't have a sense of humor -- poor things.  (I just had lunch with one of them.)


(Message last edited May-23rd-03  6:45 PM.)

"You are just being childish now. And I'd advise you
not to start with me."

Is that a threat?  Temper, temper. Kimberly, grow up.

I am sure there are others on this forum who do not think some murders are funny and some are not. All are not. I also do not believe that if we wait say l0 years or whatever we will be joking about the Laci Peterson and Polly Klass murders! I'm sure Laci's mother will take comfort in the knowledge that there are those who are holding back their humor for now but in a little while will let it rip.

Read Patricia Cornwell's book on Jack the Ripper.  Those hundred year old murders which she investigated finally made her realize (after being blase and writing many books on crime) that real murder is nothing to joke about and she has said so in her lectures.  Some people also think that ethnic jokes, put down jokes, deliberately sadistic sexual jokes etc. are also fair game and really funny except when they themselves are the butts of that humor.

Those who think the Borden murders are so funny, which includes most of the inner circle, might think about that the next time you are on the receiving end. You like to joke about it because you do NOT see these people as people, but as characters on a historical stage that are fair game to poke at for your own amusement and you also see it as another way to get back at Lizzie, whom you consider the guilty party.

Am happy I am not that superficial and my sense of humor is used appropriately and am sure I speak for at least a few others who may not be posting here.   

And I'm sure I speak for a few who are fed up with listening
to your dull-long-winded-know-it-all posts. I thought a forum
was for people to exchange ideas -- you don't do that -- you tell
people their ideas are wrong & that you have all the correct
answers. If you have nothing to gain from anyone why are you
here? Just to play teacher? We are not children. For months you
have done nothing but bitch & nag about the smallest comment.
Why do you even bother to read what anyone posts? Why don't
you just write a book if your opinion is the only one that
counts? Why bother posting? Information is one thing -- but
nobody needs you going over every word making sure it matches
what you think. What is the point of that? I'm here to learn,
I've always loved the legend & never had heard the full true story,
I enjoy listening to everyone, seeing the way everyone finds
something different. That is what is fun -- making up your own
mind. Yeah, it is shocking -- some of us do have minds.
 

Who in hell is making fun of Laci Peterson and Polly Klass?
Why do you keep bringing them up? How are they any more
important than anyone else who gets murdered? Why don't you
say Martin Luther King Jr.? Why don't you take up for Chandra
Levy? Because she was a "wicked woman" not a "good little girl"?


"You like to joke about it because you do NOT see these people as people, but as characters on a historical stage that are fair game to poke at for your own amusement and you also see it as another way to get back at Lizzie, whom you consider the guilty party."


You are assuming a lot. You are saying what you want to
think people mean. Sorry toots, I never said Lizzie was
guilty -- I was never sure about it. I have no idea. I
wasn't there. I assume you were?


"Am happy I am not that superficial and my sense of humor is used appropriately and am sure I speak for at least a few others who may not be posting here."   


If not telling people how smart I am & how stupid they are
makes my thoughts superficial, I have no problem with that. I
do not have a vast Lizzie library to get info & my posts are
usually just questions or observations & a bit of gabbing. I do
try to keep on the subject. If I have nothing to add -- I don't
post.





(Message last edited May-23rd-03  4:14 PM.)

Carol: Very GOOD Sentiments!!!
I do not think the murders were "funny" (in any of the usual meanings). Murder is not humorous, like other deaths.

(Note that "funny" can also mean "unsolved", as in "there's something funny about this case.)


(Message last edited May-24th-03  11:21 AM.)

I was just a bit ago remembering the humor ,  of Jay Leno, During the Trial, on the OJ Simpson case.  He had those *Dancing Ito's*.  He made irreverent jokes.
I'd say Leno has a good idea of the pulse of the nation's humor at any given moment, and to what he can get away with.  He didn't inherit the Tonight Show because his wits were lacking.
He gets his share of hisses and boos, but he can honestly proclaim to his audience, with an innocent face :  "Yea!  HEY!  I'm WAy Out Of Line Here!"

It's part of his trademark to joke about new and terrible crimes.  I think it settles the public into a kind of acceptence of awaiting the authorities decisions, and helps to difuse anxieties.

His jokes last night about the heightened terror alert, is a good example.
Also his jokes on SARS.
This kind of humor is like an escape valve, where people can relax and think about stressfull things, rather than just automatically react.

I think you have hit the nail on the head, Kat.  Humor does help diffuse the anxieties of modern life.  It also helps with the Borden case when I feel that I am in over my head and get too attached to the people and the situation, I don't think I would be able to discuss it otherwise.

I just went to see Margaret Cho last night, for those of you who don't know her, she is an Asian-American comedianne, Korean to be exact.  She covered so many current day topics in her routine from gays in the military to SARS, I find her brilliant to find the humor in these situations and make people laugh!  She also breaks Asian stereotypes, women's place in society, etc., if you have never seen her before and are open-minded, I highly recommend her comedy! 

I don't think any of us need to explain to anyone why we enjoy some humor in the Borden case. I believe it's a healthy thing, otherwise we would be immersing ourselves in a totally dismal subject.  It certainly has nothing to do with not caring about the characters!  I've done a few humor pieces, and I also work on serious pieces on the case.  So, where does that put me?  I need to just wash my hands and don't need the full shower? 

Them was fightin' words, Carol, that you used.  Downright offensive.
Don't wonder if the students in your Borden class look like this:  

Heck, even Lizzie was supposed to have laughed on the day of the murders. 

Thanks Rays. I don't believe that by giving my opinion I have ever told anyone not to have their opinion or forced anyone to think my way but I have differed with other opinions. I have offered alternatives to the points pushed by the "let's see which way we can cook Lizzie's goose today" crowd that dominates this forum. If there are over a hundred members here it is odds on that others who don't post (because they will be jumped on, etc.) will be able to read an alternative or controvertial option because I do post.  

Regarding the use of humor, I was alerted to something I had forgotten by the author of "The Diligent" on CSPAN this week-end.  The Diligent was a slave ship. The author reminded me that not only did people accept and support slavery (another very funny subject to some) because they thought black people were not human and objectified them, but a good majority of them DID realize black people were human but persisted in their acceptance of slavery anyway.  This reminds me that some of the people on this forum who delight in finding amusement in the Borden's misery and death do so not just because they are unaware of what they are doing but because they do know what they are doing.  Justifying debasing humor as an acceptable purgative is acceptable and even desired by some folks.

Yes, I agree, saying "there's something funny about this case," can also mean unsolved.

Augusta, sorry to disappoint you, the students in my Lizzie Borden Case class are alert, wonderful folks with a variety of opinions. You are certainly welcome to join us, the next class is July 8th. So far all comments have been favorable from class participants.
  

Kimberly, you Edisto must be eating from the same poisonous mushroom.
Such frothing, fuming, scathing and vitriol! I'm not sure even Valium would help?

The only objection I have is to those people who think "Lizzie did it" and ADMIRE her for it. When I found this site 2+ years ago I tried to test the solution of AR Brown against the other opinions. None could refute it. Its proof is that it best explains the "funny" events of that case.

Actually, I went to the Library to look for books on a more recent case. I found Brown's book, read it, then every other that I could find. Since it is 110 years old, it does not have the passions of a more recent case (compared to Lizzie in Rick Geary's book).

"Slavery" today has racial overtones. Any good history would tell you its as old as civilization. The Greeks and Romans depended on it, just as today's corporations depend on cheap labor, domestic or imported. (I just finished Gerry Spence's "With Justice For None".) I also know why they're called "slaves" rather than "serfs" or "tools".

(I hope I haven't offended anyone. We do know there are gradations of status among "white" people as well, both in America and Europe, etc.)
...
About the percentages. Like any social club, the listeners outnumber the talkers. I welcome anyone who can intelligently dispute AR Brown's theory. But remember how it stacks against the earlier works.

(Message last edited May-28th-03  4:26 PM.)

Does this tell me something about your background?
Mine is "non-english European" - about as specific as I wish to be.
I also know that no human group or race is free from guilt (or sin).
...
I do not have the time nowadays, but I would like to read that new book on the solution to the "Black Dahlia" case. My assumption (from a similar dumped body 40 years ago) is: an abortion gone bad leads to a dumped body. If the murderer had connections, maybe that's why he left the country.

There is a reference to this in "Killing Time" by Freed & Briggs.

(Message last edited May-28th-03  4:31 PM.)

There is a reference to Jay Leno as a propagandist is forming public opinion (in that site on OJ Simpson). The "dancing Itos" is a way to mock and demean a judge (who came from the ranks of Prosecutors, like many judges - they're part of the team).

I think justice was done in both decisions. Lizze was not guilty (but knew more than she told). OJ Simpson was picked up by the limo driver at 11PM; he was innocent of committing the two murders. I think both judges knew this and helped the accused. You can read Fuhrmans' book for his confession of work problems w/ Ito's wife. We certainly don't want judges who convict the innocent?

You know that higher level management always knows how to stab in the back w/o leaving fingerprints. Fuhrman pled guilty. Shapiro's book notes his private detective: Fuhrman was there, he found everything, but his name is not in the murder book (the log of events). If Lizzie is controversial 110 years later, what about OJ?

Didn't Lizzie laugh after hearing Bridget's word of frustration?

Many decades ago I also used this probable word. Within hearing of my nieces, who prodly repeated the new word they learned. Since I was on my way home, I left. I KNEW NOTHING about any bad words they learned!
"Its as much a mystery to me as it is to you."

Your insults are amateurish at best -- like the other one where
you said I would enjoy bathing with women, very immature. I didn't
know adults tried to insult people by saying they were gay. If you
will open your eyes you will see the world has changed a lot since
you were a girl (woman?).

Oh, Valium does help!  It does!  It does!  It does!

Have you got any?

No, I took it all!

Yes, Rays, according to Bridget's testimony, she said "Oh, Pshaw." and Lizzie laughed upstairs.  I feel like she may have let loose with something a little stronger myself, that word has been around forever!  Lizzie laughing despite the carnage in the guest room close by to wherever she was upstairs; if she did it, or didn't and knew about it, she was still able to find something humorous that day.   

I would agree that Leno's job can be of a sort of propaganda message directed at certain folk.  He would also probably agree.
As I said, he has the nations pulse when it comes to humor, or at least the part of the nation who watches his monologue.
He can sway opinion and he has.  He can also sway it back again, and that's a bit harder but he has honed that craft.

Personally I have a theory about humor, humorists, comedy & comedians.
Leno says they are *a little bit neurotic*.  I think he is close but not quite got the cigar, being so close to the subject himself and making a good living at it.
I think a comedian's humor is a form of aggression.  A socially acceptable form.  Therefore laughing at a joke is really vicariousky experiencing the aggression in an acceptable way.  That is part of the pressure valve of civilized society.
Humor was probably spawned and nurtured as acceptable behaviour in lieu of aggression.  I think comedians are really mad.  As in angry people.  We respond to that because we are also mad &angry people.  But we don't club each other anymore when we get mad, we go to A club and experience some humor.
The person without humor, in our society, is a scary person.  If we don't see any *sense of humor* we tend to have an instinct that maybe that person doesn't feel..or have any strong feelings.
I think we prize a sense of humor because it is natures most evolved way of dealing with aggression.  We don't trust the person with no humor because they may NOT have redirected their aggression in a socially responsible way.

This goes along with my theory about showing the teeth.
And lately I'm also wondering WHY WHITE teeth are becoming so important?>
Is that meant to show *I've eaten no blood*".  I have white teeth, I'm smiling, therefore I'm not a threat?

It seems strange to me the way certain people complain about
humor being insulting & turn right around & use what they
think will be a genuine insult. Why is it alright to take
shots at living people but not dead ones? I don't think
just becuase someone is dead they are granted sainthood &
everything spoken against them is sinful. I think everyone
is fair game.

I wonder if you found this site, and thought it would be a polite academic discussion. Not the "bar-room brawl" it is at times.
Then I can see disappointment and embarrassment for an academic who recommended it to her students. Well, live and learn.

This is no reason to descend to the level of some folks.

Oh, brother!

Oh, sister!

kat:

that's good insight into the nature of humor.  i missed too much of this thread.  something about jewelry became something about humor.

humor is as mysterious as any other human reaction or emotion or "release."  i know i've laughed at some of the most horrific things imaginable -- in the context of joking.  i'd never find the reality of the borden crimes "laughable."  i've never had the sense that this forum is largely about laughing at or not taking seriously the moral realities of the crime.  some of these jokes are funny; for example, the "dear abby" column. 

something you said once struck me as funny, though i did not respond to it. you have lizzie going to the back door and saying, "lawd, maggie, are you going to wash those windows now?"  i don't know why but i thought of a response:  "sho is, miss lizzie; you best get up with your hatchet before she gets back down again."

i don't see the harm in this humor.  i liked your point about someone who seems to lack it has something scarily pent up within them.

i heard today a local talk radio host got complaints about joking about bob hope being at death's door while his wife complains that he wont' go ahead and just GO so she can collect and get on with her life.  the thing is, this radio host has prostate cancer and jokes about it everyday.  as a way of dealing with something grim that is outside of his control.  i don't know why this is hard for some people to understand.

i don't see the point in striving toward a "reverent" sort of attitude in trying to solve the borden murders.  as far as lizzie's guilt or innocence is concerned, i don't see how she can ever be off the hook.  if she was innocent, i've wondered if she would have handled herself differently had she known what her legacy was to be?  maybe she just didn't think this way, but had she foreseen that she would become an icon of parricide...........? but if she was guilty, it's understandable why she would have said as less as possible about it.

Ray, Stefani happens to be the academic.
Others here give occasional talks.
I'm sure Stef would and has recommended this Forum and her Museum/Library to anyone and everyone.
There is no embarrassment here, and the *level* is way cool!

oops..forgot my sunglasses!


BTW:  Kash is due to incite Lynn this June 4th, is that correct?
Famous!  Good luck we are pulling for you Kash!

(Message last edited May-31st-03  4:01 AM.)

I think we get along pretty good considering we are all true
crime fans. You would think there would be more hostility.

Didn't Aristotle say that humor is caused when the unexpected happens? Like slipping on a banana peel? Some have claimed that humor is based on somebody getting hurt in some way. That would be a topic in itself!

i personally think that humor is a safeguard against insanity.  or, you might put it this way:  that humor is a natural relief from the unbearable weight of seriousness that fails to produce serious answers.  we are limited and can take just so much, and humor gets us off the hook.  on the other hand, humor can be a too easy way out.  that it's all a joke doesn't mean that it's actualy a joke.  the ironies of life!