Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden Topic Name: The Key Is The Key

1. "The Key Is The Key"
Posted by Kat on Nov-28th-03 at 1:21 AM

Inquest
Churchill
128
A.  I went into the house, stepped through to the kitchen, laid my parcels on a bench which runs right across one of the south windows that looks into Mr. Borden’s back yard. At the screen door, standing by the screen door I saw Lizzie as if she was in great distress.
Q.  How did she show that?
A.  Perhaps she rubbed her head. I knew something was wrong, of course, by the appearance. I opened one of the south windows, one had a screen in and the other did not, I says “what is the matter Lizzie?” She said “O, Mrs. Churchill, do come over, somebody has killed Father.” I went right through the house and went out the front door and went over. When I got there she sat on the second stair which is right at the right of the screen door as you come in, the back stairs.
Q.  Crying?
A.  No Sir. I put my hand on her arm, this way, and said “Lizzie, where is your father”? She says “in the sitting room”. I said “where was you when it happened?” She said “I went to the barn to get a piece of iron.” I said “where is your mother”? She says “I dont know, she had a note to go and see some one that was sick this morning, but I dont know but they have killed her too.” She said “father must have had an enemy, for we have all been sick, and we think the milk has been poisoned.” The she said “Dr. Bowen is not at home, but I must have a Doctor”. I says “shall I go and try to find someone to go and get a doctor”?

Witness Statements, Bridget, 22:
"When I returned from Miss Russell’s, I asked Lizzie if I would go to Mrs. Whitehead’s to see if Mrs. Borden was there. It was then Lizzie said, no, I think I heard her come in.”

--Lizzie is seen standing close inside the screen door by Mrs. Churchill, after she noticed Bridget running back across the street to Borden's after trying to raise Dr. Bowen.
When Mrs. Churchill comes inside Lizzie is sitting on the inside stair to the upper floor, near the door to the outside.
If she has covered that door since calling Bridget downstairs, and sending her off to find the doctor, then Abby could not have returned by way of that door.  We also know that Alice gets Lizzie situated in a rocker right there at the junction of the back hall and the little entryway that leads to the dining room door and the sitting room door, there in the kitchen.

Now, we also have witness info in Jennings notes from the "Hip-bath Collection" whereby Mrs. Dr. Bowen tells something very interesting:

"j.  Mrs. Dr. Bowen--called and said that on Tuesday of the murder she was walking up the street with Mrs. Borden and (spoke?) and (B saw?) said L wasn't up yet but Mrs. Bowen had seen someone come away so she knew she was and went over there with Mrs. Borden.

Mrs. Borden said she couldn't get in the front way 'for they had taken her key.'  So she and Mrs. Bowen went in by the back door."

--That could mean that when Lizzie said she thought Abby had come in, the only way Abby could come in was through the side entry, as she had no key to the front.  Lizzie had also made sure that the front door was not unlocked that morning, which was against her usual practice.  Even Andrew (possibly with key) could not get in the front door.





2. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by rays on Nov-28th-03 at 11:16 AM
In response to Message #1.

The fallacious(?) assumption is that this testimony is 1000% accurate. The witness may be telescoping later events with the first events. Just what did the reporters print the next day? Too bad there wasn't any videotaping going on!

The assassination of JFK was the most recorded event of that day. Years later a researcher journalist used a Voice Stress Analyzer to check the recorded statements made. "The Assassination Tapes" tells what he found out. If you haven't read any book this year, get this one. If out of print, try your Public Library.


3. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by Doug on Nov-28th-03 at 11:22 AM
In response to Message #1.

These are interesting observations, Kat. I don't recall that Lizzie mentioned hearing Abby come in to any officials, though I could be wrong about that. In any case if Lizzie lied to Bridget about hearing Abby come in (and to Bridget and Addie about "someone" killing Andrew and then to Addie about Lizzie being in the barn when Andrew was killed) it means Lizzie was lying immediately. And why would Lizzie tell three lies within the first couple of minutes of discovery of Andrew's body unless she had something to hide?


4. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by diana on Nov-28th-03 at 3:36 PM
In response to Message #1.

I was thinking about that the other day.  In her testimony, doesn't Lizzie deny that she told anyone she heard Abby come in?

"Q. Did you hear her come back?
A. I did not hear her go or come back, but I supposed she went.
.........
Q. Did you tell Maggie you thought your mother had come in?
A. No sir.
Q. That you thought you heard her come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you say to anybody that you thought she was killed upstairs?
A. No sir.
Q. To anybody?
A. No sir." (Lizzie: Inquest)

I have this vague recollection that Muriel Arnold in "The Hands of Time" suggests that Lizzie may have heard Abby come in as she was heading out to the barn.  I can't lay my hands on my copy to check that. Also, I guess it's possible that although Abby didn't have her front door key on Tuesday -- she'd gotten it back by Thursday.


5. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by Kat on Nov-28th-03 at 11:08 PM
In response to Message #4.

Inquest
Lizzie
65
A. So far as I can judge she might have been out of the house, or in the house.
Q. Had you any knowledge of her going out of the house?
A. No sir.
Q. Had you any knowledge of her going out of the house?
A. She told me she had had a note, somebody was sick, and said "I am going to get the dinner on the way," and asked me what I wanted for dinner.
Q. Did you tell her?
A. Yes, I told her I did not want anything.
Q. Then why did you not suppose she had gone?
A. I supposed she had gone.
Q. Did you hear her come back?
A. I did not hear her go or come back, but I supposed she went.
Q. When you found your father dead you supposed your mother had gone?
A. I did not know. I said to the people who came in "I don't know whether Mrs. Borden is out or in; I wish you would see if she is in her room."
Q. You supposed she was out at the time?
A. I understood so; I did not suppose anything about it.

78
Q. Did you make any search for your mother?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why not?
A. I thought she was out of the house; I thought she had gone out. I called Maggie to go to Dr. Bowen's. When they came I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is." I thought she had gone out.
.....
Q. You made no effort to find your mother at all?
A. No, sir.


83:
Q. I want you to give me all that you did, by way of word or deed, to see whether your mother was dead or not, when you found your father was dead.
A. I did not do anything, except what I said to Mrs. Churchill. I said to her: "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is. I think she is out, but I wish you would look."
Q. You did ask her to look?
A. I said that to Mrs. Churchill.
Q. Where did you intend for her to look?
A. In Mrs. Borden's room.

--Is it an option that Bridget was lying?
--I'm not sure if anybody else claims that Lizzie said she thought Abby had come in, go look.
--Even if Abby had a key back, Andrew couldn't get in with the door triple-locked and Lizzie was at that side door since finding Andrew's body, so she says.  How would she ever explain how Abby returned while she, Lizzie, was there at the door?
Lizzie was trying to make it seem that the 2 deaths happened around the same time, with her *father didn't leave until 10* routine, and so Abby could not have returned from anywhere in order to be lying killed up stairs because the front was locked and Lizzie was basically *guarding* the side door by claiming she was in the kitchen.
She's got them going both ways.


6. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by Susan on Nov-29th-03 at 2:42 PM
In response to Message #5.

There is a blip about Abby coming in from Mrs. Churchill in the Witness Statements, pg. 11:

"Second interview of Mrs. Churchill.  Mrs. Churchill, "Must I, am I obliged to tell you all?"  "Well, if I must, I can't be blamed.  O, I wish I had not to do this.  I do not like to tell anything of my neighbor; but, this is as it is.  When I went over in answer to Lizzie's call, I asked O, Lizzie where is your father?  In the sitting room.  Where were you?  I was in the barn looking for a piece of iron.  Where is your mother?  She had a note to go and see someone who is sick.  I don't know but they killed her too.  Has any man been to see your father this morning?  Not that I know of.  Dr. Bowen is not at home, and I must have a Doctor.  I think I heard Mrs. Borden come in.  Will I go and get one or find someone who will?  Yes. I did so.....etc, etc, etc.

I checked it against her Inquest testimony, Addie says pretty much the same thing, but, leaves off the "I think I heard Mrs. Borden come in." part.  I wonder why?  It explains Lizzie's statement about thinking that they may have killed Mrs. Borden too.               

(Message last edited Nov-29th-03  2:45 PM.)


7. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by Kat on Nov-29th-03 at 8:52 PM
In response to Message #6.

Thanks Susan.
I was willing to admit that maybe Bridget was off a bit in her memory and thus that statement was not as important as it seemed.
But there you have Churchill in her follow-up statement to the police verifying that Lizzie said that.  (It was just quoted in that Yankee Magazine article nj sent me)
Then Lizze was lying in Diana's post of her testimony.
I was looking for a valid prooveable lie for haulover.


8. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by Susan on Nov-30th-03 at 4:08 PM
In response to Message #7.

You're welcome, Kat.  Yes, she was lying in Diana's quote, on the day of the murder Lizzie seemed to make sure that all knew that Abby may have come in and be murdered also.  But, it seems to have been exclusive to the women that were there, it wasn't told to Dr. Bowen, all he heard was that Abby was out because of a note.  I wonder if Lizzie thought that the women were more gullible?  More sympathetic?  More hysterical and apt to believe that Lizzie heard Abby come in? 


9. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by Kat on Nov-30th-03 at 8:00 PM
In response to Message #8.

The fact that the quote was included in this fine article, as well as your post, made me realize that this utterance was popular knowledge.
And that would be why Lizzie was asked explicitly about what she said!

We keep seeing instances of Knowlton not calling her bluff, or not asking the next hard question.  My frustrated impression was that he might have thought he would get another chance at questioning her.
Could she be called to a grand jury?


10. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by haulover on Nov-30th-03 at 8:24 PM
In response to Message #1.

i understand what you're saying about the front door being locked -- that, in fact, lizzie may have seen to it in advance that the front part of the house would be safe from an intruder during abby's killing.

trying to imagine lizzie's original fiction -- that perhaps lizzie hears mrs. borden come in the side door while in the sitting room with andrew, and doesn't see her when she comes out, and then goes out to the barn? 


11. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by Kat on Nov-30th-03 at 10:33 PM
In response to Message #10.

We had narrowed down when Lizzie could possibly have heard Abby come in to the period after finding Andrew and by the time Churchill came, catalouged distinctly by the events as they are described by the different characters and Lizzie herself.  You were there on that.
Besides Bridget would have known that Abby had returned, as she was doing the downstairs windows at the time of Andrew's return.
It is a good note you make which reminds us that we can't trust Lizzie & Bridget's version of events in that house that morning.  Why should we?


12. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by harry on Nov-30th-03 at 10:55 PM
In response to Message #10.

I agree that Lizzie would want the front door locked during Abby's killing.  However, once the killing was over with I should think she'd want the door unlocked and maybe even ajar a bit so as to blame the killing on an intruder.

Could she just have forgotten to unlock the door after Abby? 


13. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by Kat on Dec-1st-03 at 12:50 AM
In response to Message #12.

If she unlocked it after Abby, she would have no forewarning of Andrew's return.  It may not be his habit to knock at the screen door.
That's the only reason I can think of to keep that door locked.
Now, unlocking it and putting it ajar after Andrew is killed would be smart, if she did it, or even who-ever did it.  Even robbing the guy, or messing up the room.

In a news item in the Sourcebook, pg. 19, twice it says that Andrew had collected his rents on Wednesday, and I think they were early on implying that cash money robbery was the motive.
But we know Andrew was home sick that day, and not seen outside of his yard.  So I doubt he was flush with rent.


14. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by diana on Dec-1st-03 at 2:06 PM
In response to Message #7.

Just a niggling little point, here.  I’m hesitant about terming Lizzie’s denial that she heard Abby come in a “valid, provable lie”.  I’ve been thinking a lot lately about how much credence we can give anyone’s testimony in this case.

It’s true that Mrs. Churchill and Bridget both claim Lizzie said she thought she heard Abby come in.  However, Dr. Bowen and Alice Russell don’t say this.  And Lizzie denies it altogether.

Think of it this way.  Bridget and Mrs. Churchill are the first to come to Lizzie’s aid at the scene of a horrific murder. They start working in tandem to do what they can -- both run out to get help, both go together for sheets to cover Andrew, and both go together and discover Abby's body.  Things would have been very chaotic that morning and presumably there is a lot of chatter going back and forth between the two of them. 

I’m suggesting that it could be that Lizzie never said anything about hearing Abby come in – that what happened was that Bridget may have made an assumption -- and Mrs. Churchill may have convinced herself she thought she heard Lizzie say something that actually came from Bridget.

Think of it like this.  What if Bridget tries to reconcile Lizzie’s plea for someone to go and look for Abby with her own concept that Abby was at the Whitehead’s.  When Lizzie asks people to look for Abby in the house --  Bridget thinks to herself: “Well, Lizzie must have heard her come in, then.”  So, at some point during the crisis, she says to Addie – ‘I think Lizzie heard Mrs. Borden come in' -- and Mrs. Churchill just hears the last part of the sentence and attributes it to Lizzie.  Both of them fit that statement into their personal memory of the scene.  And simply because the words have been uttered, they can both “believe” that Lizzie said them.

The mind is extremely complex and people often convince themselves that their particular recollection is the truth.  There have been a number of psychological studies done to show how inaccuracies are incorporated into our recollections.  See: http://agora.stanford.edu/sjls/images/pdf/engelhardt.pdf  for examples of this.

And remember that confusion between Mrs. Churchill and Bridget about the note?  Mrs. Churchill seemed certain that Abby told Bridget that she’d gotten a note. (Prelim.,273 and 288: Trial, 367). Bridget initially wavers at the Prelim on this point and admits she can’t remember if she told Mrs. Churchill that or not. (Prelim.,83)  But by trial-time – she’s firmed it up -- and says flatly that she knew nothing about a note besides what she heard Lizzie say about it. (Trial, 251) Yet, even at trial, Mrs. Churchill is still implying, at least, that Bridget told her she heard about the note from Abby. (Trial, 367)

I guess my point is that I think we have to take everyone’s testimony with a grain of salt, especially when it deals with what went on during those first incredible hours when the bodies were discovered. 

I’m not saying Lizzie didn’t lie.  I’m just saying I don’t think we can say we’ve proved she lied by relying on Addie and Bridget’s testimony.  And presenting a hypothetical scenario to back up this contention. And I've gone on way too long to justify a "niggling little point"!!







15. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by harry on Dec-1st-03 at 4:01 PM
In response to Message #14.

Interesting article Diana.  It may help to explain Lizzie "seeing" her father take off his shoes and put on slippers.  Also Harrington seeing laced shoes instead of Congress boots.  Harrington in the trial holds to his mistaken testimony even after being shown the photograph of Andrew on the couch wearing boots. 


16. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by Kat on Dec-1st-03 at 6:16 PM
In response to Message #14.

These are all good points and I was waiting for someone to give back a good opinion on the matter.  I knew when I used the word *lie*.
That word is like a flag.  And I wouldn't normally persue such a black and white statement.  But I think in ways, Lizzie did lie and trying to pin just one down is like trying to tie butterfly wings.

A statement corroborated by another witness has to be good enough, in my opinion.  One person making a claim is not enough.
But look at how I have trouble believing Bence and Harte & Kilroy.

That claim that Lizzie asked those to go find Abby because she thought she heard her (Abby) come in, has made it into Legend, then, because I have read of that recently in a very well-presented article re- published in 1966.
It's going to need more than a reasonable explanation I think...it may need proof otherwise.


17. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by Kat on Dec-1st-03 at 6:19 PM
In response to Message #15.

And Lizzie says she knew Andrew did not go upstairs at all, yet Bridget has him up there before his *nap*.


18. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by Kat on Dec-1st-03 at 8:19 PM
In response to Message #16.

This refers to the point I make that this is, by now, Legend:
Here is the notation from John Douglas, "The Cases That Haunt Us", 2000 --
Page 87

" 'Where is your mother?' Mrs. Churchill asked.
Lizzie replied, 'I don't know. She had got a note to go see someone who is sick. But I don't know but she is killed, too, for I thought I heard her come in.' Then she offered, 'Father must have an enemy, for we have all been sick, and we think the milk has been poisoned. I must have a doctor.'
At that point, Adelaide Churchill went out in search of Dr. Bowen herself, setting in motion the chain of events that summoned law enforcement authorities."

Also,
"The Unfathomable Borden Riddle", by John U. Ayotte, from Yankee Magazine, 1966 (reprint), pg. 59:

"Lizzie Borden presently expressed concern for her stepmother, saying she 'thought she had heard her come in.' " (quotes by author).

Also:
"Murder, Culture, and Injustice; Four Sensational Cases In American History".
by Walter L Hixson, 2001, pg. 27

"While now denying that she had heard her mother come home, two witnesses had heard Lizzie state shortly after the murders that she had heard Abby return to the house."



I'm not heaping proof of any kind on anyone-- I am only showing how deep the Legend runs.  For all I know, it may be wrong or a misunderstanding, as you, Diana, point out.
That is what I mean as possibly needing proof to put this one away.



(Message last edited Dec-1st-03  8:27 PM.)


19. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by njwolfe on Dec-1st-03 at 8:19 PM
In response to Message #17.

I'm not sure if I should start another thread or use this one,
hope I'm not going off track too much. I wanted to share somewhere
about the 1900 diary I just read and so many references to the key, so
important to always have the door locked and everyone asking everyone
if they are going out and checking on the key.  Noone can come to the
house and just walk-in back then, people were let in by the servant girl who answered the door.  (we all leave our houses unlocked don't
we when we are just puttering around at home?)  I was surprised at these diaries that locking everything was the norm.  I had thought that the Bordens were just paranoid.  So for Lizzie to go out and
disappear up in the barn for 20 minutes leaving the door unlocked was
a bigger deal than I had previously thought.   Also, from the diary
I just read, everyday, there were "sick calls" to attend to,
everyone was always sick.  One entry talks of the clams that were on
the back porch for 3 days that she had to cook up for dinner.  No
refridgeration as we know it, ugh I can't imagine eating some of the
stuff they ate.  "Mr. D. killed a Rooster Sunday but we didn't get him cleaned up and cooked till Wed...."   Almost every entry talks of
a "sick call" to somebody which meant bringing something.  When "Mrs. D" was sick, Delia answered the door all day receiving things, peaches, strawberrys, etc....    I wondered if Abby went on a sick call delivering 4 day old Mutton?  What did she bring?
  The excuse Lizzie gives of a "sick call" now doesn't seem that
strange to me, but I would think "Maggie" would have known more about
it and helped her fix something to bring.  ?
 
 


20. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by diana on Dec-2nd-03 at 12:42 AM
In response to Message #18.

Those legends do run deep -- and require so much unravelling to find their source.  They take on a life of their own after awhile.  Authors often incorporate them as a given;  and the legends gain credibility simply by appearing in another published form.

I used to hope that if we relied on the primary source material, we could clear a path to the truth -- but those documents are also a mass of contradictions.  Witnesses not only contradict other witnesses -- they contradict themselves.

For example, on page 77 of the Preliminary Hearing, Bridget can’t remember whether she heard the door-bell ring -- but, minutes later,  she’s asked again if she heard it ring  -- and this time she answers “yes”.  Did she,or didn't she?

Jennings struggles valiantly to remind Morse that he told Charles J. Holmes he thought the cellar door was open when he arrived at the house on Thursday morning but no -- John doesn’t “recollect anything about it”.  Yet a few pages later – Morse is back on the stand  – and miraculously his memory is restored!  Suddenly he remembers telling Mr. Holmes he thought the cellar door was open. (Prelim.,266,269) A little Ginkgo Biloba on the break perhaps?

In effect it comes down to a game of ‘who do you trust’.  

NJ -- That's really interesting about the locked doors, the food, the sickness etc. in Delia's writings. Thank you so much for sharing the diary with us.


21. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by rays on Dec-2nd-03 at 1:31 PM
In response to Message #18.

This sort of misses the point of the locked door during daytime. Living on a busy street may suggest this, but the back door was ususally kept unlocked in most houses (I believe).
Did the contemporaries wonder about the many locked doors in this house, unlike the others in the neighborhood? What did their neighbors do?


22. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by rays on Dec-2nd-03 at 1:34 PM
In response to Message #20.

Yes, human memory is fallible. Did you ever want to remember something, but forget? Then remember it some time later?

Discordant testimony suggests no collusion. Is this a well known phenomenum?


23. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by haulover on Dec-2nd-03 at 8:58 PM
In response to Message #11.

as i said i would, i would like to say more about the locked front door and that abby probably had no key to it.  (you saw my note about the "astrological" front door?  if not, look at "local" email.  i thought it was interesting if for no other reason than that andrew tried to enter it and could not -- yet managed to get in by intervention of bridget.)

your perspective on this (as it relates to a solution) is probably different from mine.  maybe you could elaborate on it -- i won't presume to say how.

but what i see here are facts that just go nowhere.  fact #1 is that abby is upstairs dead for an hour and a half, and in fact, never left the house that morning.  of course, it's fact that lizzie did not hear her come in after discovering andrew's body.  had abby come in, lizzie would have had to have seen her. she also would have had to have seen the murderer. 

are you suggesting that the murderer was let in through the front door?  and out through the front door?  is there a reason lizzie would have relocked that door?   lizzie says 3 odd things about it -- that the front door was always unbolted in the morning, but she doesn't think they were that morning, and that "maggie can tell you."
?? i don't know.


24. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by rays on Dec-3rd-03 at 4:50 PM
In response to Message #23.

Andy had a key to the front door, of course. But the dead-bolt was fastened so the key was useless. This was usually only done at night.

My reasoned interpretation regards how WSB (nemesis) got in. If the front door was left open for him and he was told to lock it afterwards, he could have done the deadbolt. THAT would explain why it was locked up as for the night.

Or maybe the visitor leaving in the morning distracted the usual practice? My own limited experience is that if people are leaving by the back door, they are not paying attention to the front door (if open). Yes, the facts are unknown as to when it was done; I'm just making a logical assumption.


25. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by njwolfe on Dec-4th-03 at 8:26 PM
In response to Message #24.

good points Rays, about the deadbolt and back door. The word
"nemesis" came up at work today, my boss asked if I knew if it
was appropriate to call someone that.  Did I know what it meant?
Well from my education on this site, I said "it means someone unknown
who has tricked us or gotten away with something..."   Of course the
minute I got home I looked in the dictionary and it says "an unbeatable opponent".  Close enough huh?  


26. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by Kat on Dec-5th-03 at 7:57 PM
In response to Message #23.

When you say Andrew managed to enter the front door by intervention of Bridget, do you mean possibly that Andrew was not meant to enter that day and time at all?  and that's why the doors were locked?
Or is that more of a Karma response?

I don't know why "they" would take away Abby's key to the front door while Emma was away.  If they needed an extra key they might have asked Emma to leave hers behind for the use of the remaining family.  The need for Abby's key, then, would have to have come up that week (see Jennings notation) so what could be the reason?
It wouldn't be to give to Morse because Abby's key was taken by Tuesday and Morse came unannonced Wednesday, so it's claimed.


27. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by njwolfe on Dec-5th-03 at 8:33 PM
In response to Message #26.

One thing I found so fascinating about the diaries I just read, was
that there was only one key and the household kept track of who would
be the last one in the door.  I guess they didn't have the key-making
machines at your local hardware store back then.  I am wondering if
Bridget got to hold the key on her nights-off, or what the situation
was.  (?)


28. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by Kat on Dec-5th-03 at 9:03 PM
In response to Message #27.

Bridget talks about getting her key in her testimony.


29. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by haulover on Dec-6th-03 at 1:51 AM
In response to Message #26.

**When you say Andrew managed to enter the front door by intervention of Bridget, do you mean possibly that Andrew was not meant to enter that day and time at all?  and that's why the doors were locked?
Or is that more of a Karma response? **

i really don't know.  it's just when i read that astrological interpretation by people who appear to be serious students of it -- i immediately thought of that locked front door that was locked in a way that it would (from all accounts) not normally be locked in that manner.  my impression from these astrologers was that they did not know much about the case -- and yet identified a key factor in how it happened.  it could mean that someone got in but had trouble getting in.

but as you say "karma," -- yes, in andrew's case. and how he had to make an effort to get in when he would have done better to stay away.

another interpretion of that astrological insight is this and more mysterious:  that someone wanted to enter and decided to back off.  (more related to abby's murder?)

to me this is all wild speculation, but i know you've wondered a lot about the front door as opposed to the side door.




30. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by Kat on Dec-6th-03 at 2:21 AM
In response to Message #29.

What is this astrologer's interpretation to which you refer?


31. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by Kat on Dec-7th-03 at 12:50 AM
In response to Message #29.

I think you may think you explained this astrological technique, but not to me.  Do you wish to enlighten?  I know you said you don't know about it in entirety, nor understand it totally.


32. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by haulover on Dec-7th-03 at 6:17 PM
In response to Message #31.

this is it from a message board.  i couldn't get the link to work so i just pasted in the lizzie portion of it.

_____________________________

One of the things that always surprised me, when I got into the study of astrology, was not in how much astrological interpretation was based on ancient studies over millennia, but in how much modern astrology was trying to distance itself from it. Modern astrology text center on psychological and scientific evaluation of the chart, while the concepts that proved eminently useful over thousands of years get tossed aside. Concepts like void-of-course-moons, the via-combusta, etc. are treated almost like some superstition to be ashamed of and forgotten. A perfect case in point would be the famous Lizzie Borden murder case. I have seen not only articles, but entire books written on the subject, with astrological analysis of the charts with all the most modern techniques. The crux of all the analysis being that if you could prove astrologically/psychologically that she was a bed wetter the whole thing would come clear. Yet if you look at the chart for the time of the murders, (Aug 4, 1892, 12 noon (TZ 5+) 41N42 / 71W09), and apply the ancient and ignored techniques, you immediately get struck by something that puts these modern analysis in question. Scorpio rules the 1st house (the murderer), and Mars is retrograde on the cusp of the 4th. The 4th house rules the Borden house itself and the cusp is int's front door. By ancient techniques, a planet on the 4th cusp represents someone at the door and if that planet is retrograde, someone holding back from entering. So at the time of the murder, you have an unknown party outside the front door, reluctant about entering. So, never in the case has anyone dealt with an unknown party lurking outside the door, while the murders were being done. You can take the same traditional techniques and apply them to something like the Versace murder and see how Cunanan would end up on a houseboat, in the end. But that is another story and I don't want to bore anyone. Suffice it to say, the study of modern astrology, is, in my opinion, going down the wrong road when it discards the teaching of the old, in favor of the new age.


33. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by Kat on Dec-8th-03 at 12:23 AM
In response to Message #32.

Wow!  The part about modern astrology almost being ashamed of the old ways and trying to pass as a new *science* and denying it's roots sounds like what I intuitively felt and wrote in that post!

Otherwise, it's saying there was someone waiting outside the door during the murder?
It's also claimed that this aspect has not been investigated in the Borden crime, yet there is story of Lizzie being outside during the murder -or Dr. Handy's pasty-faced man being seen out front, etc.
Hmm.
I wonder if it has to be the "front door"?
Thanks !

(Message last edited Dec-8th-03  12:25 AM.)


34. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by rays on Dec-8th-03 at 5:36 PM
In response to Message #25.

"Nemesis" is from the classical Greek. Like meeting your fate.
"Nemesis" is the name used by Masterton in his book. He promises a solution, but ends up saying it could have been one of three.


35. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by Kat on Dec-8th-03 at 8:17 PM
In response to Message #33.

Haulover, I've read of astologically finding the center of a place and it's profile, by certain means.  Do you know about that?  I think Barbara Watters did that in her book.  I think it was a *place* which was factored in.  Has anyone read that book, "The Astologer Looks at Murder?"  I don't have it here.


36. "Re: The Key Is The Key"
Posted by haulover on Dec-8th-03 at 9:48 PM
In response to Message #35.

i have not read the book, and i don't know the method;  i don't know the method for getting  a time and place -- but such method would be for fall river vicinity in general.  i just had a thought. what about the chart for one born in fall river during the time of the murders?
astrologer does good to identify a particular point of passage -- and we know there is a question/mystery there.