1. "Lizzie In The Kitchen"
Posted by Kat on Oct-20th-03 at 3:42 AM

While I was looking at Sawyer's testimony today I noticed something which he said in the Preliminary and in the Trial, describing where Lizzie was when he arrived.

I had always pictured Lizzie in the back corner of the kitchen by the table and the window.

it turns out she was sitting very near the entry way to the side steps.
I didn't think her rocking chair would normally be situated so much in a high traffic area of the kitchen!  So I think maybe she moved it to get a sightline to all the doors, to keep track of what was happening?  I think her eyes were *closed* some of the time Alice ministered to her but now I can just picture her checking out the goings on from under lowered lids.

Preliminary
Sawyer
1470+
Q.  When you went into the house did you see any persons inside there?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Who were they, as near as you can recollect?
A.  I saw Miss Russell, Mrs. Churchill,  Miss Lizzie, Bridget.

Q.  Where were they at that time that you saw them?
A.  In the kitchen.

Q.  Can you tell us what Miss Lizzie was doing?
A.  She was sitting in a rocking chair---well, not quite in the middle of the room, but  quite near the door to the back entry.

Q.  What was she doing or what were the other persons doing?
A.  The persons that were in there with her?

Q.  She or they either.
A.  Well, she was sitting in a chair and they seemed to be---I don't know whether they were ministering to her some way, they seemed to be fanning her.

Q.  Rubbing her hands or face, anything of that kind?
A.  Yes, seemed to be. I couldn't tell exactly what they were doing, but they appeared to be---I don't know but they were rubbing her hands.

Q.  How near did you go to her?
A.  Well, at one time I was within about three feet of her, I should judge. I stood there quite a while. In fact, she wasn't not more than three or four feet from the door that led from the entry.





(Message last edited Oct-20th-03  3:44 AM.)

Wouldn't that be the breeziest spot on that hot humid day?
It is also common sense for her to keep her eye on the strangers in her house.

Honi soit qui mal y pense.

(Message last edited Oct-20th-03  10:20 AM.)

Great find, Kat.  Yes, that does seem to be the prime location for visibility, to see and be seen.  It makes me wonder where the usual location of the rocking chair was, it doesn't seem like a time where someone would be dragging furniture clear across a room.  Do you think that it may have been kept normally to the right of the doorway to the back entry, between the pantry door and the hall doorway.  Or, near the pantry door on the rear wall of the kitchen?  It would only have to be moved a couple of feet that way to be 3 to 4 feet from that back hall entry. 

(Message last edited Oct-20th-03  1:50 PM.)

I can't tell from this exchange where the rocking chair is.
I went ahead and included the info on Bridget not seeing Lizzie sitting reading Thursday morning in the kitchen.

Preliminary
Bridget
64+
Q.  She said she was going to have a cookie and some coffee for breakfast?
A.  Yes Sir.

Q.  Where did she sit down?
A.  By the kitchen table, and this chair was facing.

Q.  What chair did she sit down in?
A.  In a big old chair that is right by the window, by the side of the table.

Q.  Was there any rocking chair there?
A.  Yes Sir.

Q.  Did she sit in that?
A.  No Sir.

Q.  This chair is an arm chair?
A.  Yes Sir.

Q.  Did you see her reading there?
A.  I did not.

Q.  Did you see her reading there any time that forenoon?
A.  No Sir.

Q.  Did you have any books there?
A.  Yes Sir.

Q.  Was not there some old Harpers there, a magazine with pictures in it?
A.  Yes Sir.

Q.  Where were they kept?
A.  In a closet in the kitchen.

Q.  You had seen her there looking at them, or reading them?
A.  Sometimes I would.

Q.  You have seen her sitting down in the kitchen doing that?
A.  Yes Sir.

Q.  How many times?
A.  I could not tell you.

Q.  Often?
A.  Not very often.

Q.  She came into the kitchen and sat down there?
A.  Not very often.

Q.  She has done that before, and you have seen her sit down and read there, and look at these magazines?
A.  Once in a while

Q.  Do you remember whether that morning she sat down in the chair there and read?
A.  I did not see her.

Q.  You do not remember about it?
A.  No Sir.

--Bowen says he was shown through the dining room to the sitting room by Lizzie after he had met her in the hall.  Between the Prelim. and Trial, he can't remember if Mrs. Churchill was there or Bridget, but one or the other.
In the Trial he says he came into the kitchen from the sitting room to tell them Andrew was dead.
Lizzie sitting in that advantageous spot, surrounded by her lady friends before moving into the dining room, seems a bit crowded for no good reason.
I keep thinking 3 feet is only3 ruler lengths from that entry way.


(Message last edited Oct-20th-03  5:48 PM.)

This picture seems like it is a view from the sitting room,
looking to the dining room, and other door to kitchen.  I thought
she was sitting in kitchen?  Confusing. 

Kat, what a great post!  And the picture to illustrate it.  Wow - this really speaks volumes.  The sitting room is that closed door to the right?  And the back door is off to the left? 

I always get lost in that house, even when I'm just looking at a floor plan of it.

I lived in that house, (or a replica of it) that is why I don't see
how the sitting room (our den) could see the kitchen door.

Great picture, thanks!  That looks like another place that the rocker could have sat, between the side entry doorway and the door into the dining room I guess?  And what of the wing chair that was in the kitchen according to Bridget?  That sounds like an odd piece of furniture to be in a kitchen? 

OK, i see where Lizzie was sitting in the kitchen now, thanks.
Scary we had a big ol stove like that also, in the same spot.
i'd never seen that picture, it is great!

This is Half-Moon's version of the Borden home floor plan, first floor.
The rocker is shown in the back S.E. corner, whereas we have positioned it 4 feet from the back entryway.  (Alice put Lizzie into the rocking chair.)

This table is the *kitchen table* I believe, but I thought that was in the S.E. area by the windows?
Does anybody know where the table was?

Edisto has often warned us of using this chart.  It is very well done, but not always to be depended upon.

Yes, like the icebox being in the kitchen.  Didn't Harry determine through Bill Pavao that it was in the sink room?  And no notice of that big chair Bridget refers to as being in the kitchen. 

Also, I thought the piano was in the dining room, not the
kitchen?

The Piano?


nj: Did you have a piano in your kitchen?
The Borden's piano was in the parlour, I thought.

S.:Yea they did figure out the icebox, you're right!

I think the easy chair was by the window to make it easier to read.  I have a feeling it was Bridget's easy chair to sit and rest her feet.  Now we never determined if Bridget could read, but I'm sure she could look at magazine pictures.  That might be what she did on breaks.

Hey BTW:  This plan shows a *coatrack known to be in the front entry*.  I wonder where 'half-moon' got that? (Remember Lizzie's hat and Morse's hat?  hmmm...)

(Message last edited Oct-23rd-03  1:32 AM.)

That may have come from Lincoln, I know she wrote something about the coat-rack in the front hall?  Unless there is some other source for it.  Didn't most homes of the period have them or some sort of coat-tree or something? 

We were trying to decorate the Borden house from testimony, remember when we tried that?  We didn't finish.  I would have hoped half-moon had done the same.
Maybe she didn't have the primary sources, but if not she sure did a lot with not much!
I guess we need to check primary sources for a coatrack.

I remember Morse saying when the girls came in the front door they always went straight upstairs *with their clothes that way*.  That sounds like they didn't stop to hang up hats.

Here's Morse's testimony which seems to indicate that the coat rack was indeed in the front hall.

"Q........I think you say you left about fifteen to twenty minutes before nine?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Going out the side door?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Not going out the front door at all that morning?
A.  No, sir.

Q.  Not going into the front hall after you came down stairs that morning?
A.  Oh, I stood in the door and took my hat off the rack, which is right close: that is all." (Trial,149)



(Message last edited Oct-23rd-03  3:23 PM.)

Sorry, in looking closer I mistook the numeral "7" for a #1 which
was keyed as the piano.  Our piano was in the dining room on the
wall adjacent to parlor, a wonderful old "player piano"

Diana found a rack!
You suppose that is a coat rack, or a hat rack or a combination?
Good job.

nj, wouldn't it be cool to still have that player piano?

(Message last edited Oct-23rd-03  9:05 PM.)

Did a search on an online dictionary:

coatrack
       n : a rack with hooks for temporarily holding coats and hats
           [syn: coat rack, hatrack]

rack
       n 1: framework for holding objects

Going by this definition, this is a coatrack.



coat tree
       n : an upright pole with pegs or hooks on which to hang clothing
           [syn: clothes tree, coat stand]

This one gets confusing as most sites that sell coat trees refer to them as coat rack-tree, but, by this definition, this is a coat tree.


I don't know if its safe to say that in Lizzie's day when Morse refers to a rack that he meant a coat tree or not?

There is also a hallstand:

hallstand
       n : a piece of furniture where coats and hats and umbrellas can
           be hung; usually has a mirror

This is a hallstand.



I've also seen these refered to as "hall trees".

So, from what I can gather, there was either a board with pegs hung on the wall, which would have to have been to the right of the parlor door as that wall is straight whereas the wall under the staircase is curved.  Morse could reach right out that doorway of the sitting room and grab his hat.  Or, there was a coat tree (rack) that was standing  close by there to grab from. 

This is what the B&B and curator came up with for the front entry way.
[Photo John Clark] http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Galleries/92SecondStP2.htm
I don't think I will assume anything specific as to *rack* because Morse is such an odd character he might mean anything.

The Muesum thinks like you do.
Those were cool examples, thanx!
I don't know how you do it...very informative!

You're welcome, Kat.  I love Victoriana, I think it was a very innovative and decorative time period in history.  I know a smattering of things here and there, good for Trivial Pursuit, but, I do have to check what I recall.

Yes, very difficult to pinpoint exactly what Morse means by rack, but, I thought I would give examples of what was prevalent during the time period of what people would have in their front entry.

Now, hows this; I recall reading or seeing something, possibly an author and I don't think it was Lincoln, but, it was something about a girl that had gone to church with Lizzie one day, she was made to wait in the front hall on a bench or chair that was there.  Bridget served her a stale cookie or something.  When Lizzie came to fetch the girl, she noticed as Lizzie put on her gloves that the gloves were more mending than glove.  She came to the realization that this household was into pennypinching.  I don't know where this came from and if there is any way to substantiate it?  Sound familiar at all?  But, that would possibly mean that there was another piece of furniture in the front hall, or, the hallstand or hall tree may have had a seat on it instead of a table, as some do. 

I remember reading about this episode, but my recollection is that the girl was a Sunday school student who came to wait for Lizzie.  My recollection is that Bridget let her into the parlor and gave her a glass of milk and cookies.  But alas! I have no idea where I read this (could have been Radin or Brown).

Thanks, Robert Harry.  Yes, the girl very well may have been a Sunday School student, I don't recall?  Really, you recall the Borden parlor actually being used?  Wow.  If no one comes up with where it came from I'll have to do a massive search this weekend. 

That intrigued me.  I couldn't remember it at all .... but here it is -- in Arnold Brown's book.

"In my research, many dear people offered their remembrances of stories they had heard in their youth. One dealt directly with Abby Borden's demeanor toward Lizzie. Mrs. Marion D. Sherman of Westport, Massachusetts, said,
"my mother, who passed away several years ago at the age of 104, was a friend of Lizzie Borden. Lizzie was her Sunday school teacher and my mother used to go to the Borden house every Sunday morning and they would walk to church together. My mother told me she arrived early and went into the hall and waited on the haircloth sofa where one of the murders took place. Once in a while Bridget would bring a little milk and a cookie, but there apparently was no surplus of food (or anything else) in the house.
My mother told me Lizzie was treated mean by her stepmother. Her clothes were shabby and her gloves (Mother's words) were more "mends" than gloves.
By the way, when anyone asked my mother whether she considered Lizzie guilty or innocent, the reply was, "She is dead and buried, so let her rest in peace." (Brown, pages 30-31)

I thought a rack referred to a number of pegs used to hang clothes on. Very common in older times?

I think this comes from the testimony of the dress maker who spent a few days there in early 1892. Lizzie was Andy's girl, and could be expected to do as Daddy says. Or was that Abby? Another reason for Lizzie to be treated as "used goods"?
...
My faulty memory?

(Message last edited Oct-24th-03  4:47 PM.)

You're welcome, Susan. And thanks to Diana for so quickly finding the source!! I'm embarassed to admit it, but Radin and Brown are the only two Borden books I've read--oh yes, also "Lizzie Borden: A Casebook of Family and Crime in the 1890's"--so i knew it must be in one of those. 

Hey, it has taken me quite a while, but I just hit 100 posts!!

No you're not, you're 101 !  Anyway, Congrats and hope to hear more of you.  I am chuckling at your post!  I bet you've read source documents.
How about Pearson & Porter & Lundy from the web-site, and Douglas & Wigmore?
Lundy is good.

(Message last edited Oct-24th-03  10:20 PM.)

Thank you so much, Diana!  Well, there goes my theory of another piece of furniture in the front entry, but, I did remember that the word "hall" was used.  Amazing the bits of information that get stuck in your brain.  Now I wonder if there is any truth to this story or not? 

I'm not surprised you thought there was another piece of furniture in the hall.  That sentence isn't very well constructed.

"My mother told me she arrived early and went into the hall and waited on the haircloth sofa where one of the murders took place."

That definitely leaves the impression there was someplace to sit in the hall.

Well, the B&B put that coat rack right outside the sitting room door into the hall/entryway.  I guess that's where Morse reached for his hat.  The perspective is different than I thought.  This view is by John Clark and is shot from the sitting room out the door, found at:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Galleries/92SecondStP4Assets/Stairs41.jpg

Because the rack is so close to the sitting room and the girls go straight up the stairs upon entering the front door (per Morse) then they probably don't use this rack stationed here, and Lizzie didn't use it Wednesday night at all, and she would have a hat then, wouldn't she as she came home from Alice's?

For Susan & Diana & Tina-Kate
FakeFoto- Only One Sofa...
Edited.

(Message last edited Oct-26th-03  1:28 AM.)

That's right, Kat, I have read almost everything as far as documents on this website. My problem is that I have spent the last several years doing two masters degrees and am now working. I'm only just now getting more time for Lizzie (I have had to cram her in between classes and resume writing, etc.)!!  BTW, I am still holding tickets to stay at "the place on Second Street" and my fiancee and I are planning to stay (in the Morse bedroom) some time in Nov or Dec.  She got reservations for TWO nights but I don't know if I can take two nights with no sleep!!

Great Fake Foto, Kat!    I can see why Lizzie didn't use that hallstand.  From this view, it makes it very apparent that she would have to stand in the doorway to the sitting room.  And, if she was trying to avoid Morse, or even just the elder Bordens, she couldn't do that standing there. 

From Morse's statement at the Trial, it sounds like Emma and Lizzie avoid it altogether, I wonder why?  Coming in from the rain or snow with a wet cape or cloak or coat, they would be tracking that all the way upstairs.

Growing up on the east coast, I think about what my family did during wet or cold weather.  We would come in the back door into what I guess you could consider a mud room, took off your boots or shoes, went upstairs into the kitchen.  You put your boots or shoes on the newspaper on the floor in front of the radiator behind the kitchen door to dry them out.  Then you would go into the family room to hang your coat up on the coat rack behind the family room door.  If you didn't follow these simple instructions, there was hell to pay from my mom. 

Thanks.  I went to bed laughing.  I amused myself.
I hope Tina-Kate returns.

Since the elder Bordens had the back hall and the kitchen, you'd think the girls would claim the front hall entryway.  It led to their part of the house, but maybe it was denied them because Abby's precious parlour also opened into it.  Her guests would then use the front door and maybe be invited into the parlour.
Bridget, the elder Borden's servant, was charged with sweeping it every other week, which implies Abby's territory.
I was wondering that maybe those girls had their own coatrack in the entry closer to the stairs once you described the need, but Morse does say the girls go straight upstairs.  Curious.  Maybe they had something like that in the upper hall, near their dress closet?
Well, after all this, we haven't figured out where Lizzie got that hat when/if she went out back or to the barn Thursday while Andrew was being killed.
(Another thread- "Lizzie's Hat".)

Egads...thank God I never had to sit beside anything like that before Sunday School!

That kind of creeps me out, Kat

[OOPS, here it is]



(Message last edited Oct-26th-03  1:30 AM.)

Oh, now that ones downright creepy!  Its that grin on Emma's face that does it.  Who painted the picture of Lizzie that is on the wall there, do you know?

You may be right, Kat, the girls may have had some set-up in their rooms to dry wet garments and there was probably a radiator there to put their boots by to dry.  The main thing I was thinking of was the tracking of wet and dirt through the front hall, then up the stairs and into their rooms.  I wonder if Bridget had the care of the staircase too when she swept the front hall or not? 

We're talking about Lizzie's hat in 3 threads, I guess I'm obsessed.  But being obsessed without knowing it, lets my brain kind of run with a concept while I am not aware.
I realized that since we found through testimony on the Radin thread that Bridget took her hat and shawl from those hooks in the back hallway after she went to fetch Dr. Bowen but before she ran to Alice's, that that was not the hat Lizzie had because Lizzie said she put hers down in the diningroom.
So that means 2 different hats.
-Bridget's kept in the back hall, and the hat of Lizzie's which she set down in the dining room.
Now, why would she set the hat down if very shortly she meant to go upstairs?
That has always been my question, after deciding Lizzie doesn't keep her stuff downstairs and must have either gone up stairs to get that hat before going outside, or had already brought it down earlier knowing she was going to go outside during her ironing.  That doesn't make sense.  If she meant to go out on errands to get her fishing gear at NOON, why bring down her hat at 9 ?  Lizzie doesn't mention getting a hat when she took up her clean clothes or when she says she did that speck of sewing...and she finally says she did that before Andrew left (and she says that he was still home around 10 -- so that is still 2 hours before she means to go out).
It's like she knows once she gets downstairs in the morning she'd better not go back up, or admit to go back up for any reason, even to get a hat.

(Message last edited Oct-26th-03  2:54 PM.)

I think the hat is important as to where Lizzie was and when.
It's a feeling I have and I guess there's nothing more to conjecture?
We really have no idea what Lizzie was doing from 9 until 9:30 when Bridget saw her at the screen door, and from 9:31 to 5 to 10 minutes after Andrew came home, say 10:45 a.m.  She may have ironed some hankies.

I can only put together the scenario, partly based on Susan's find that Lizzie says she pushed open a door to find a body:
That Lizzie went outside earlier with her hat, and returned, setting it down in the dining room and somewhere in the house (guest room?) pushed open a door to find a body...(Abby).
That she didn't go out later when she said she did.
And either Bridget saw her out there and kept quiet, or no one saw Lizzie out there earlier, just as they didn't see Bridget.*
I think it's possible Lizzie is juxtaposing scenes that happened, as a bid to confuse.
*All the witnesses called, Manley, Hart, Thomas Bowles, Mrs. Dr. Bowen and the people on the street.

YES, all very confusing!  It seems both Bridget and Lizzie are
confusing things so there are really NO facts about that morning.
The Hat: maybe Lizzie was planning to go out until Dad arrived home
early.  All we have are Lizzie's and Bridget's statements.  And can
we believe them?  There is no one to prove or disprove them.

***It's like she knows once she gets downstairs in the morning she'd better not go back up, or admit to go back up for any reason, even to get a hat.***

i agree and i came to that conclusion last month -- though by a different route from the one you used.  i was trying to narrow down all i possibly could about the dress, and i realized a hat would connect with a dress (and putting on a hat meant going out).  lizzie wouldn't wear just anything to go out.  for example, the dress abby is found in -- she would not have worn that outside.

but my conclusion really came by way of playing a "what if" game.  she appears to be waiting upstairs until father gets home.  then she comes down.  i'm still speculating about how much of a real plan she actually has at that moment.  have you considered the possibility that she decided to kill him at the very last moment -- and that it was one of those things that could have easily gone either way?  i mean that she might have actually put on her hat and walked to the door and thought -- no, wait, he'll know and i won't get away with it, the time is now, i can do it.  but my conjecture is that she has a hat downstairs because she is smart enough to know that others might come in and prevent her from the second murder.  if that happens, it's going to look bad for her, but her best option will be to leave the house and let the "affair" come to light in her absence.  and if people do come in, she doesn't dare go back upstairs where abby's body is. in other words, the second murder is played by ear and subject to chance.  that would explain the poor alibi.  once she does it, she does not want to leave anything to chance.

the next question is her refusal to remember seeing bridget.  this is because of her change of dress?  i'm still looking for another explanation for it. i guess lucky for her, bridget did not or did not choose to remember what she was wearing. 

(btw, while i'm remembering your question.  why i don't use capital letters?  except for emphasis sometimes.  only because it is easier and quicker.  so i got in the habit of it for message boards and chat rooms and emails.  if you punctuate sufficiently it works fine.)

I guess as Nanci implies it could go either way because we don't have to believe everything Lizzie and Bridget say.
Lizzie does tell us she planned on going out at noon.
But you don't get dressed for going out at noon, at 9 a.m.  So the surmise that she changed sometime would probably be a good one.
And yes I see a hat connected to that change.
You think Lizzie had that hat ready downstairs?
Do you mean when she came down the first or second time she had not yet changed but brought down a hat?  It's possible.  Would she think of that?
The Andrew-home-early-theory has not been proven, but I think an author has Lizzie dressed to go out when Andrew comes home and then she seizes the opportunity?
I sort of diverge at this point myself.
We hear Lizzie going into Andrew and asking for mail.  We hear this from Bridget.  So instead of Lizzie slipping out which she very well could have, she more apparently beards the lion in his den, so to speak.  She does not walk away, she stays and has a conversation which Bridget overhears.  I think that is methodical and not chance, but I have always agreed that the killer had to be adaptable.
I wish these murders had happened in the way you suppose...that Abby is killed and the killer is content with that.  If Lizzie did it then why not let Andrew live, he's old for that time period, she can wrap the rich new widower around her little finger, and a new will would be negated.
Maybe Emma comes into play here.  Maybe the deal is kill both or neither.  We don't know what a conspirator's wishes would be.

I think Kat and Haulover are giving Lizzie more credit for
creativity than she desearves.  She didn't seem to have much of
that from reading the inquest testimony.  And Lizzie and Bridget
seemed to clash on their responses there, but innocently and
seemed to appear honestly.  Both women not real bright, although
maybe greedy enough to just "let something happen"?  I'm trying to
put myself in their shoes and maybe in their unhappiness and frustration they agreed to go along with something.....?

But the "conflict" in testimony, which must be honest, says there is no collusion or conspiracy between L and B.
You must realize that the differences are due to their point of view.
Just keep the overall view of the Big Picture.

I do agree that Lizzie is probably getting more credit for cleverness than she ought.  I'm trying to see this through many different eyes so at times that may be why. 
Ray the big picture did not solve this crime.  That's why we pick at little things, turning over stones, chasing snippets of partly understood testimonies.
Since we are contemplating testimony that is evidence, I think it is a useful approach.

i don't think lizzie shows creativity.  i'm saying this "hat" (actually a decided lack of creativity on her part to even mention it, why even tell us?) is for a reason.  i think she planned the second murder and waited for him to get home.  if her preference had been to leave, she could have done so earlier.  but she didn't.  but in going downstairs to meet her father and talk to bridget about going out and being dressed for doing so (the hat) -- this is a back-up plan if household circumstances disallow her the second killing.  i think of it as common sense on her part.  she can kill him and produce an alibi (which she did, as bad as it was).  but the knowledge of her own guilt i don't think would allow her to just go about her usual business in the house and wait for someone to find abby (who knows when, who, how?).  if someone comes to the door to see andrew or maggie decides she doesn't have time for her nap (or whatever), lizzie can at least cast doubts on the other occupants of the house by leaving the premises.  if lizzie is in the house all morning by bridget's and andrew's accounts, how can she even create the possibility of an intruder?  killing andrew actually gives her an alibi, since she has to go through the sitting room to go upstairs to her room.  but otherwise, she has no story or means for making the crime discovered.

it's not just point-of-view difference.  lizzie can't see maggie downstairs washing windows or talking with her, even though she can't deny maggie opening the front door.  maggie cannot get upstairs to her room without lizzie seeing her. 

This is when I really wish we had Bridget's Inquest testimony, I would imagine that she was asked whether Lizzie was dressed for the street or not when she came down.  But then, what did she do with the hat in the interim when she started ironing?  I can't see Lizzie ironing in a hat.  She never mentions putting on the hat or taking it with her for her alleged trip to the barn, can you imagine, hat in hand, pears and digging through dusty junk.  Yet, she mentions laying it down in the dining room coming back from the barn.

Lizzie makes it sound as though she is going shopping after her trip to barn to see if she can find sinkers, yet, she had supposedly just thrown that stick of wood on the fire to try to start it up again to heat her flats to finish her ironing.  She can't have it both ways, either she was preparing to go out or she was going to finish her ironing and then go out.  Perhaps that was her original plan, to do her domestic chores and then go out, hat at the ready in the dining room.  No one mentioned finding a ladie's hat in there, and Alice brought up those hankies.  I wonder if Lizzie would have brought it up to her room when she went upstairs and changed into the pink and white striped wrapper?

For her to mention that hat in the dining room, I think it must have been there, but, it seems as though no one noticed and she gave a poor explanation for something that no one questioned.  It does sound as though she was planning to leave the house at some point then.  Maybe the plan was to leave the house immediately after she dispatched Andrew, but, realized that Bridget would take the fall for it? 

If we continue to follow the line of reasoning that Lizzie was dressed to go out, and finds the opportunity to kill Andrew, then she is wearing her going out clothes.
Then those going out clothes become blood-spattered, she changes, washes, hides the outfit, yet later burns the Bedford cord.
So does that mean, if she did kill twice, there were two killing outfits?
The Bedford cord for Abby and the going out outfit for Andrew.
Lizzie could use the Bedford cord for Abby if she put it on after Bridget last saw her around 9:05, kill, take it off, clean up, hide the outfit.  Change into goingout clothes with hat.  Come down with that at 9:30 to be seen at the screen door by Bridget.  Then just sits and waits until Andrew comes home.
Maybe she put down that hat in the dining room at that time and not later when she claimed she was out in the barn and came in.
I don't think certain people would remember seeing a hat as certain people don't remember seeing the little ironing board.

Well, I keep going back to Mrs. Churchill's statement about what Lizzie was wearing which sounds to me like a description of the Bedford Cord dress, which definitely isn't a going out dress.

But, I did have a thought about the hat.  Maybe it was used while Lizzie was killing Abby or maybe not.  Perhaps Lizzie did get some blood in her hair which she had time to clean off and let dry?  Being wiser for Andrew's murder, she brings down the hat and a veil, some sort of material that would cover the hat and her face, think beekeeper.  Yes, it sounds awkward, but, if it prevents her from having to do further clean-up that might be noticed.  A yard of gauzy material would burn pretty fast if thrown in the stove.

Which brings the question to mind, did the police sift through the ash in the stove from that day?  If Lizzie had already burned a dress from when she killed Abby there might be hooks and eyes or buttons.  But, to me, it sounds like Lizzie donned the Bedford Cord for Andrew's killing and was still wearing it afterwards.  I think she had to, Lizzie calls Bridget down and not that she ever really recalled, but, what if she noticed Lizzie wearing something totally different from a few minutes earlier?  Lizzie can't admit to going to her room to change, Abbys up there.  And, that screen door needs some excuse to be unhooked for the murderers escape, Lizzie's barn trip story.

I think Lizzie could have said she went upstairs past Andrew peacefully sleeping on the sofa and changed her dress to go out.  When she came down, she found him dead and rushed to call Bridget, finding the screen door wide open.  It sounds like she can't admit to doing anything in her room because of Abby.  You saw how she was pounced on for her one trip that she did admit to, carrying up the clean clothes and basting her loop on a dress. 

The 'big picture' didn't solve the crime, because the identity of the killer was kept secret by Lizzie and Uncle John. The wrong person or wrong charge was prosecuted.

I assume that everyone will agree Lizzie should have been charged with obstruction of justice? Is there any Christian tradition that says people MUST cooperate with the state? Or is it "family first"? I wonder if Lizzie and Emma knew WSB quite well when young, and then worried about his later difficulties. (I do know of a relative who developed a sickness that won't be named.)

If Lizzie just stepped out back for a few minutes to give privacy to Andy and his visitor, that would explain the lack of hat, proper clothes, etc. Wasn't it the custom then to save visits for the afternoon?

I'm sorry, i'm on a different wavelength when it comes to the Bedford Cord.
Mrs. Chrurchill is not necessarilly familiar with that dress.  I can belive her description but I don't think it is the Bedford cord.  Mainly because Alice knows that dress and Bridget knows that dress and both of them pretty much discount that Lizzie was wearing it Thursday.  (It's even known to them as the *Bedford Cord*).
That's why I try to put Lizzie in it when there is no witness.  It could be a killing outfit because it was burned.  That's the only reason I even think that Lizzie wore it sometime Thursday to get blood on it, even if it  was accidental blood (like when getting too near Andrew when she saw him dead and may have thought that would implicate her or even if the thought of blood on the dress just freaked her out).
She was wearing something similar to the Bedford cord, a common calico morning dress when seen by witnesses... which doesn't sound like a going-out dress, but might be.  But the Bedford Cord was not a going-out dress, according to Emma's description of it being too long that the hem dragged and was stained and was washed out of color.

Yes, which brings us back to Lizzie may have had many similar outfits.  Its just Addie's testimony, she swears that she doesn't notice clothes, its not her thing, but, her description of a blue and white dress with navy blue diamonds on it fills that Bedford Cord bill.  And she was pretty certain it was a cotton dress, not silk.

Bridget in her Preliminary testimony says she doesn't remember what Lizzie was wearing, no idea at all about it.  Do you think its possible under the stress and strain of the day that Bridget may have been staring at the Bedford Cord dress and not even register it?

Alice also states in the Preliminary that she didn't remember how Lizzie was dressed.  Even in her Inquest testimony she doesn't recall what Lizzie was wearing. 

to susan and kat both:

after agonizing over this dress issue recently and looking at every testimony about it, i've still got questions.  (i even constructed a "dress theory" that might hold up where evidence is concerned, but i'm still in the dark.)

you both make points that are exactly what i've been dealing with.  i wonder if we're close enough on it to get somewhere.  i don't want to get it more convoluted, but i've got some questions maybe you can answer.

number 1:  what abby is wearing when found murdered is clearly, even to me, a dress a woman would not go out in public wearing (almost colorless, no pattern in it to speak of, "undecorated").  practically a housecoat.  agreed?  maybe not; tell me if i'm wrong.  but as to lizzie:  would it be respectable for lizzie to go out in a cotton dress that was light blue with a dark design, wearing a hat, and maybe a shawl of some kind?  OR would lizzie find it necessary to go out wearing a more expensive material like silk (or silk-like)?  i think it is important to DECIDE this.  the blue dress lizzie turned in was definitely the sort that she would be unashamed to go out in public wearing.  no, let me back up.  i'm already making it convoluted.  question:  would lizzie have worn a cotton blue patterned dress with a hat for going out?  (forget bedford cord one way or another -- just my general question.)  which is:  material cotton, color blue with decorative pattern, plus hat, etc.

number 2:  mrs. churchill gives the most detailed description of the dress lizzie was wearing that morning -- except for this:  she doesn't know "bedford cord" one way or the other.  the other available descriptions of what lizzie was wearing are more or less in line with what mrs. churchill describes.  but then there is alice, who cannot remember a thing about what lizzie was wearing -- yet she is certain she recognizes the bedford cord when she sees a part of it in the cupboard.  what baffles about alice then is this:  if alice did not notice what lizzie was wearing at all, you could say then it might have been anything; yet alice is certain of what she sees when she sees it in the cupboard.  alice knows bedford cord when she sees it?  she would have noticed it murder morning had she seen it?  and mrs. churchill's blue diamond-patterned dress is just another cotton dress?  then bedford cord remembered by alice is truly killing dress--not worn by lizzie when they came in that morning?

number 3:  blue dress lizzie turns in is (by its material) a public formal dress, right?  and clearly so, right?  and NOT what anyone saw regardless of blue color.  WHY did lizzie choose this dress to turn in?  (could she not have turned in another blue cotton dress she had not used as killing costume?)  why a bengaline silk?  (i've played with a theory about this but it doesn't really work in the time constraint -- too much dress-changing.)  did she turn in this bengaline silk because she wanted people to think she had dressed for leaving the house?  did she actually wear this between murders and she knew bridget saw her in it, and she thought bridget might identify it as what lizzie was wearing and lizzie knew no blood could possibly be on it?  then actually bridget remembered nothing of it anyway.  well, here's my unrealistic theory on that anyway:  after bridget went upstairs, lizzie took off that bengaline and put on andrew's coat for the murder.  then she put on the blue cotton diamond pattern dress mrs. churchill observed before she called to bridget.  so then what lizzie is wearing when mrs. churchill comes in is that cotton blue dress but it is bloodless, the bengaline is put back upstairs because as it turned out she decided not to leave the house.  the bedford cord, which was abby's killing dress, ends up in the cupboard.

well, i've convoluted it anyway.  any thoughts on any part of this?

i've made some progress though.  i know how lizzie could have killed abby wearing that beford cord (recognized by alice) and concealed it.  then i see her putting on a similar cotton blue dress for the shocked eyes of the public who are horrified about the affair.  what i'm looking for is IF and if so WHY lizzie claimed to have worn a bengaline blue dress (a public as opposed to a house dress).

i'm still vexed and i'll stop with it now or it won't make any sense at all.

Bridget states that she remembers what Lizzie wore Wednesday, but not Thursday.  Wednesday Lizzie wore the Bedford cord.  So no, I don't think Bridget would recall that same dress Wednesday but not Thursday.
Alice knows the Bedford cord from the spring when it was made and Lizzie called her attention to it specifically and Alice said *Oh you've got on your Bedford Cord.*  Then Alice testifies that she did not see that dress again until it was in pieces about to be burned on Sunday.
These two know Lizzie and her dresses.  I don't think Mrs. Churchill does.
I should change my earlier comment that the dress was known to both as *the Bedford Cord*.  It was more commonly known by both as *the dress which was made in the spring*.

Here are the citations:

Trial
Bridget
270

Q.  Do you remember anything about Wednesday, what dress she had on?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  What was it?
A.  It was a light blue.

Q.  You say you don't remember Thursday?

MR. MOODY. Well, let her finish.

THE WITNESS.    Wednesday morning she had a blue wrapper on her; skirt and basque.

Page 271

Q.  Now you say you do not remember on Thursday?
A.  No, sir. I can't tell.

Q.  Can't remember?
A.  No, sir. I can't tell what dress the girl had on.

Q.  Have you any recollection at all what dress she had on any part of Thursday?
A.  No, sir, excepting the afternoon I went to her room and she had on a pink  wrapper.

Q.  A pink wrapper in the afternoon?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Before that you can't tell anything about it?
A.  No, sir; I couldn't.
....

Page 294

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION


Q.  (By Mr. Moody.)  Is this dress that you are speaking of that she had on Wednesday the one you referred to as having been made in the spring?
A. Yes, sir.

Q.  And with a dark blue figure in it?
A.  Yes, sir.
....................

Trial
Alice
394

DIRECT EXAMINATION, resumed

Q.  (By Mr. Moody.)   Miss Russell, will you tell us what kind of a dress---give us a description of the dress that she burned, that you have testified about, on Sunday morning?
A.  It was a cheap cotton Bedford cord.

Q.  Bedford cord?
A.  Yes, sir.

Page 395 / i417

Q.  What was its color?
A.  Light-blue ground with a dark figure---small figure.

Q.  Do you know when she got it?
A.  I am not positive.

Q.  Well, about when she got it?
A.  In the early spring.

Q.  Of that same year, do you mean, or some other year?
A.  Yes, sir, I think that same year.

Q.  Was your attention called to it at the time she got it in any way?
A.  At the time I first saw it?

Q.  Yes, at the time you first saw it, and by what?
A.  She told me that she got her Bedford Cord and she has a dressmaker there, and I went there one evening and she had it on, in the very early part of the dressmaker's visit, and she called my attention to it, and I said, "Oh, you have got on your new Bedford Cord."  That is the only time I saw it until this time.

Q.  Until the time it was burned?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Can you give us anything more about the figure---

MR. ROBINSON.   You turned around and made correction; I don't know whether it is a correction for the reporter or only for me. Perhaps you had better state it again.

MR. MOODY.   I did not mean to put in the question. "the morning the dress was burned?"  but, "the Sunday morning following the homicide".  That is the I referred to.

 
Q. To make it clear, between the time you saw it on Miss Lizzie Borden and had the talk about it in the spring, you did not see it again until the Sunday morning after the homicide?

Page 396 / i418

A. I never remember of ever seeing it, and I am quite sure I did not---that I never had.

Describing the Bedford cord makes it unique.  It is longer than her usual dresses which made the train get dirty easily, and when washed it lost color, plus it was stained.

Trial
Emma
1537
Q.  Now, then, Miss Emma, I will ask you if you know of a Bedford cord dress which your sister had at that time?
A.  I do.

Q.  Won't you describe the dress, tell what kind of a dress it was?
A.  It was a blue cotton Bedford cord, very light blue ground with a darker figure about an inch long and I think

Page 1538 / i560

about three quarters of an inch wide.

Q.  And do you know when she had that dress made?
A.  She had it made the first week in May.

Q.  Who made it?
A.  Mrs. Raymond, the dressmaker.

Q.  Where was it made?
A.  At our home.

Q.  What kind of material was it as to cost? Do you know what the price of it was?
A.  Very cheap.

Q.  Do you know, have you any idea what it cost?
A.  It was either 12-1/2 cents a yard or 15 cents.

Q.  About how many yards do you think there were in it?
A.  Not over eight or ten.

Q.  In what way was it trimmed?
A.  Trimmed with just a ruffle of the same around the bottom, a narrow ruffle.
.......
1539
Q.  Did she make more than one dress at that time for your sister?
A.  Oh, yes, she made several.

Q.  Which one was made first?
A.  The Bedford cord.

Q.  Do you know whether or not they were painting the house at the time that dress was made?
A.  I think they did not begin to paint it until after the dress was done.

Q.  Do you know anything about her getting any paint on it at that time?
A.  Yes, she did.

Q.  Where was the paint upon it?
A.  I should say along the front and on one side toward the bottom and some on the wrong side of the skirt.

Q.  How soon was that after it was made?
A.  Well, I think within two weeks; perhaps less time than that.

Q.  How soon did she put it on to wear after it was made?
A.  I think she put it on the next morning after it was done.
......

1540

Q.  What did you say to her?
A.  I said, "You have not destroyed that old dress yet; why don't you?"

Q.  Is that all that was said?
A.  All that I remember.

MR. KNOWLTON. I don't think, may it please your Honors, that answer should stand.

Q.  Did she say anything in reply?
A.  I don't remember.

Q.  What was the condition of that dress at that time?
A.  It was very dirty, very much soiled and badly faded.

Q.  Do you know whether she had been wearing it for some little

Page 1541 / i563

time prior to the day of the murder?
A.  I don't remember seeing her have it on for several weeks before I went away.

Q.  How long was it before the murder that you went away?
A.  Just two weeks.

Q.  Was this material of which this dress was made in a condition to be made over for anything else?
A.  It could not possibly be used for anything else.

Q.  Why?
A.  Because it was not only soiled, but so badly faded. It was a shade that in washing that would be completely ruined,---the effect of it.

Q.  I will ask you a little further,---how long was that dress?
A.  So long that in the back perhaps---I might say dragged an inch or more.  It was not a train dress, but it was so long that it very quickly got soiled because it was so very light.

Q.  How did it compare with the length of her pink wrapper?
A.  I should think it was an inch and a half longer, sure.

Q.  How was it made as to the sleeve?
A.  We called them full sleeves then, but not as large as they are making this season.

Q.  But, as to the waist, was that full or snug?
A.  The waist was a blouse waist, perfectly loose in front.

Q.  Did she have any dress, Miss Emma, that she could get on over that?
A.  No, sir.

Q.  Why not?
A.  Because her dresses were made rather snug.

Sorry, haulover, our posts passed in the mail.
You weren't there when I started my composition.

more convolution, in other words.

more simple question:  lizzie's reason for turning in the dress she did -- was it simply the color or was there another reason?

Okay, then the question comes to my mind along the lines of Haulover's questions:  If Lizzie was wearing a blue and white dress with navy blue diamonds on it (from Mrs. Churchill's description) and it wasn't the Bedford Cord (as per Alice and Bridget both knowing it) then why didn't Lizzie turn in that particular dress to the police?  Why turn in the Bengaline silk dress at all?  This dress according to all the witness' had no blood on it, and they all saw her wearing it, why not turn it in to the police?

Thats why I went to the Inquest and the Prelims, the info was still fresh in the witness' minds.  I agree with you, Mrs. Churchill never knew anything about the Bedford Cord dress and probably never saw it up close and personal before, yet her description of the dress Lizzie was wearing sounds just like it.  She couldn't describe the Bedford Cord if questioned about it, she had never seen it, but, she saw Lizzie wearing some cotton dress and gave the best description she could.  Maybe I'm fixating on Addie's description too much, but, she seemed to be the only witness able to do so. 

I wonder if Lizzie turned in a better dress than she wore in order to impress people: I'm rich enough to wear this kind of dress around the house.
BTW, I just happening to be dining on champagn and caviar, the same old same old. Never franks and beans, of course.

I have honestly entertained that idea before too, Ray.  That Lizzie wanted all to think she was better off than she was and gave them a better dress.  But, I do think there is more involved with her handing over that Bengaline silk dress, it sounds close in description, and like the Bedford Cord, Bengaline is a ribbed fabric. 

i like that idea because it fits lizzie.  she chose the bengaline over a "house dress" to give the police (and therefore the public) out of vanity.

I really don't know about the Bengaline.  I do think I know about the Bedford Cord.
One thing I don't do is get caught up in the dress descriptions.
It is easier to know what Lizzie didn't wear than what she wore.
And finding out what she didn't wear, we get straight from Bridget and Alice.
Other than that we know that these dresses were probably 2 pieces.
So I still think, if pressed on the subject, that since Lizzie had 8 blue dresses* she might have mixed and matched as needed.  That's my only knowledge on the matter.  To me it's the only thing which makes any sense.

*Trial, Emma, 1531.

These dresses didn't come into play as such a wild card until the trial.  That was after Alice gave the dress-burning testimony to the grand jury.  That's when a dress burned became important.  The context is everything.  I really don't pay much attention to background patterns etc.  Just know she must have had similar dresses/outfits, yet the Bedford cord was unique.

But how much material was purchased? Was a similar dress made for Emma or anyone else? A thrifty household wouldn't waste anything.

From your own experiences, ever see people dress up when relatives come over to visit? I'm not talking about just Sundays.

Trial
Emma
See post #60
Q.  What kind of material was it as to cost? Do you know what the price of it was?
A.  Very cheap.

Q.  Do you know, have you any idea what it cost?
A.  It was either 12-1/2 cents a yard or 15 cents.

Q.  About how many yards do you think there were in it?
A.  Not over eight or ten.

-I don't get your question but here's an answer.
The dressmaker didn't make anything for Emma at that timr.
She said Lizzie implied she would burn her old wrapper that the Bedford cord would replace.

Thanks for the quotes. It establishes that burning an old dress was not unknown to that household. (I don't know why thrifty Andy didn't sell it to a ragman for a few pennies.)