1. "Lizzies "lesbian" letter"
Posted by Jimmy Windeskog on Feb-9th-04 at 8:05 AM

I cant seam to find any information to who Lizzie worte the classic words “I dreamed of you the other night but I do not dare to put my dreams on paper.”

I think its very importent to know what relationship they had i orde to know what the words really stand for.

(some of my questions has been anserd before, exuse me if that is the case with this one to)

If it were a man she had written to, would there be any question? Its not so different with us.

Jimmy, I don't think I've ever seen a name attached to the letter's recipient.  She's usually refered to as a "woman friend".  It would be interesting to know, although personally, I think the letter's importance has been greatly exaggerated by those who believe Lizzie was a lesbian.  I'm open to that possibility, but until we know more about the letter's context, it could mean anything or nothing.  My guess is that it's just another example of her rather "gushy"  sentimental streak, as seen in the inscriptions on the mantelpieces at maplecroft and her pets' gravestone. 

The question is "dose this letter dose a different". I dont think so, but i do remember a theory in witch Lizzie commit the muders just for the reson that she IS a lesbian, and Abby and Andrew dosent like it.

The real intresstning part of this theory is the links to the Freud theory about symbols. In this theory (cant remenber by who) the heat in the barn should be a symbol of Lizzies "sexual heat" and the pears should symbol "the forbitten fruit".

I dont really belive in this version, but then iam trying to get a grip over the most theorys (in order to put them in a swedish book or a Essay). So the letter and to who it was writen dose make a differens.

Well now i have written to The Fall River Historical Society aboute this letter, i will give the information om this forum as soon as i hear from them!





But another question i have now is, what was written on the her pets' gravestone???

(Message last edited Feb-9th-04  9:55 AM.)

The full text of the letter is in Spiering (probably in other books as well) page 198. The pertinent info reads as follows:

"As the days and nights of loneliness crowded in on her there was someone she desired. According to Mrs. Brigham of the Fall River Historical Society, the following letter was written to a young woman:

My dear Friend

Where are you how are you and what are you doing? I dreamed of you the other night but I do not dare to put my dreams on paper. Have you been away and has your little niece been to visit you? We have been home all summer. I spend much time on the piazza in my steamer chair reading and building castles in the air. I hope you have been away and are well and strong now. Do you expect to do much this fall and are you going to N.Y.? Every time we pass your corner the pony wants to turn down. The weather has been so warm and full of thunder storms I am quite ready for fall."

In an age which prohibited any expression of one's deepest, most passionate feelings, Lizzie's phrase I dreamed of you the other night but I do not dare to put my dreams on paper was revealing. Despite her tendency to lie, she could be explicit about her sexual longings.

Discreetly, Lizzie ended the short letter:

"I should be very glad to hear from you.
Sincerely
L. A. Borden

August twenty second
          1897"

I know nothing more about it than that. I do remember reading in Radin's book that Lizzie had the habit of starting most, if not all, of her personal letters with the term "My dear friend" thus making it hard to know to whom she was writing.

Thank you very much Harry!

Seams to me the words "Where are you how are you and what are you doing? I dreamed of you the other night but I do not dare to put my dreams on paper" can mean about anything. She can be worryd that she have become sick or that something has happend to her.

Articals like Dave Rehaks about Lizzie maybe was a lesbian dosent seam a bit convincing to me after reading the whole letter.

(Message last edited Feb-9th-04  10:27 AM.)

Its amazing to me how the possiblity of her being a lesbian makes many people more nervous than the possiblity of her being a murderer-this was also the case when I did that lecture/slide show. Hence they go out of their way to find the most obscure rationalizations to what was clearly a love letter.

Well, thats to days political correct culture for you...

But kashesan, dont you think that you are reading in a little to much in this letter?

As for my own sake I can sa that i did blive that Lizzie was a lesbian or a bisexual. But after reading the whole letter and about O´Neil i cant say that i have any resons to belive it anymore.

(Message last edited Feb-9th-04  11:49 AM.)

That is an interesting observation--that people might be more concerned about Lizzie's sexual identity rather than the fact that she might be a murderer.  There was a novel written in the 1980's based on the supposition that Lizzie was a lesbian and the murders were a result of Abby walking in on Lizzie and Bridget, if I correctly recall the plot.  I think the author was Evan Hunter.  In any event, it was not well written and it takes many liberties with the actual events and it does not shed a bit of light onto what happened in that house that day.  Yeah, she might have been a lesbian but that does not add much to the actual scenario of the murders from what I can determine and if nobody had ever been hacked to death at 92 Second Street, then Lizzie's sexual issues would have been forgotten nearly a century ago. 

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archive203/Lborden/LBdreamedofyou.htm

In our Forum Archive.
Seems Mr. Flynn might know as he was good friends with Mr. Kent.
He does take e-mail.

I recall there was a rumor of Lizzie's pending engagement and that hit the papers and within a short period of time Lizzie wrote a letter which might be what we call "The Apology Letter".  Because of the similarity of time frame.

If this murder was solvable, it would've been done in 1892. Nothing since has come out to indict anyone else.

WHAT IF Ellan Eagan HAD told the police about the stranger? Maybe they would have solved the crime. (I believe AR Brown's account, but the failure to notify the police IS the loophole in this story; everything else is the optimal solution. IMO)

Thanks Kat!

This is the type of "evidence" that only means what you are willing to assume it means. The friendship with the actress IS a fact. Maybe Lizzie was just taken in by a charming con-woman, then dropped her?

That story of an engagement would be called "spin" nowadays.
I once read a book about Hollywood in the 1940s, how the sexuality of certain movie stars would be shielded by arranging dates. Because they have to guard their investment in the star. Remember how Tab Hunter hit the skids after the 1958(?) story of his secret?

Hello, Jimmy!

The doggie tombstone had the names is pictured in Rebello.  It lists the names of the three dogs, then reads, "Sleeping Awhile."  A slightly more sentimental phrasing of "Rest in Peace."

--Lyddie

Thanks Lyddie!

And iam i right if i say that the inscriptions on the mantelpieces at maplecroft read "”And old times freinds a twiligth plays and starry nigths and sunny days. One trooping up the misty ways when my fire burns low”? (Its a little hard to see in my pic).

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Galleries/Maplecroft.htm
See mantles at LizzieAndrewBorden.com ,Galleries, Maplecroft

Thanks Kat
But iam not sure iam getting it rigth here (beeing so terrible at english and so), can anyone else see the written words as "”And old times freinds a twiligth plays and starry nigths and sunny days. One trooping up the misty ways when my fire burns low”? Or am I getting something wrong here?

Rebello, 325:

AND OLD-TIME FRIENDS & TWILIGHT PLAYS,
AND STARRY NIGHTS, AND SUNNY DAYS
COME TROOPING UP THE MISTY WAYS
WHEN MY FIRE BURNS LOW.

It really is a lovely verse....

I may stitch it on a pillow....

Thanks again Kat. What would my research be without all your answers on my  stupid questions...

I'm glad you came back to see us!

Jimmy, your questions are not stupid! You are trying to be thorough, and that is a good thing.  How many of us do you think could research a crime whose best sources were in Swedish?  I know that I couldn't.  In fact, I couldn't research anything but English. 

--Lyddie

Your questions are not stupid at all.  They are making me think and I appreciate that.  Keep asking questions!

You are all much to nice to me... Thanks all...

Do you think you might write to Mr. Flynn, or should we?