1. "Lizzie and Alice in the Cellar Night after the Murders"
Posted by haulover on Jul-26th-03 at 12:40 AM

From Joseph Hyde in Witness Statements (pg 38)

"About half past eight in the evening, Miss Russell told me they were going to retire, and would lock the door; and if we wanted anything, we could knock, and they would open the door.  In a little while afterwards, Miss Russell and Miss Lizzie came down into the cellar, Miss Russell carrying a small band lamp, and Miss Lizzie had something in her hand which I could not, see distinctly.  She went over to the sink and emptied something that sounded to me like water, Miss Russell standing some distance back.  Then they both went up stairs.  About fifteen minutes after, Miss Lizzie came down the cellar alone, with the small lamp in her hand.  She set the lamp on the table, and went over towards the sink again, and stooped; but I could not see what she did there.  Then she took up the lamp again, and went up stairs.

August 8th 9 o'clock in the morning, I spoke to Miss Russell about her and Miss Lizzie being in the cellar on the night of the 4th.  Miss Russell said Miss Lizzie had the toilet pail. Miss Russell said she offered to carry the pail.  Miss Lizzie says, "you bring the lamp"; and they went into the cellar.  I said to Miss Russell, Miss Lizzie came down into the cellar alone after that time.  Miss Russell said that could not be.  I said, O, yes she did; it was about ten or fifteen minutes after you and she went up stairs.  Miss Russell said that must have been while I was taking my bath.

About fifteen minutes after this conversation, Miss Russell came to me and told me she would like me to come up stairs, she wanted me to see something.  She led the way to the southeast bedroom, and pointing to something that lay on the floor under the head of the bed, said, "what's that?"  I picked it up.  It was a club, about twenty inches long.  She said I slept here last night; if that was there last night, I don't see how I missed seeing it.  Miss Russell seemed very much excited, and begged me to tell no one but the Marshal.  Mrs. Charles Holmes was present at the time."

I was musing over this today.  there is something creepy about it.  not only in that lizzie went back down while alice was preoccupied and stooped over or near the sink -- but that in a matter of minutes after learning of this, alice (suspicious?) found something weird under the bed, and was apparently upset about it.  what is interesting is not only what was lizzie doing down there, but what was going on in alice's head upon hearing that lizzie had returned to the cellar without her knowledge.  it made alice suspicious of lizzie and prompted her to search that bedroom -- or lizzie (or someone) was trying to frighten alice or mess with her head?

Hello all.  I've been reading these threads for several weeks and I must say things have certainly gotten very interesting of late.  Especially since Bill Pavao is now offering his knowledge.  But what brought me to finally post was Haulover's post about Officer Hyde's report of speaking to Alice about Lizzie's second trip to the cellar and Alice subsequently showing him the club under the bed, the one that frightened her so (from her own testimony).  Years ago I put these two pieces of the puzzle about Alice together and Haulover is in the right ball park.

Consider this:  #1 On Saturday evening, August 6, Lizzie is informed in the Parlour by Mayor Coughlin that she is suspected.  #2. On Sunday, August7, Alice observes Lizzie about to burn up part of a dress in the kitchen stove.  #3. On Monday morning, August 8th she learns about Lizzie's second trip to the cellar.  This must have been a turning point in Alice's own self questioning about Lizzie's involvment in the murders.  Even if Lizzie wasn't reading the papers about how she was suspected (Emma stated Saturday night "We've tried to keep it from her".) surely Alice was reading those papers.  Then, THEN, Alice is frightened about finding a club under the bed which it sounds as if she feels was recently placed there (why else wouldn't the police have found it - or so she must have thought).  Yes, I think Alice was very frigthtened on the morning of August 8th after learning what she did from Officer Hyde.  She could not help but put that image of Lizzie going back down to the cellar alone with her image of Lizzie about to burn part of that dress.  It took her 3 months to tell what she knew and I believe she was a troubled woman for those 3 months.

Alice is my very favorite person in the whole Lizzie Borden myster, excepting, of course, Lizzie herself.

NOTE TO KAT:  Those cellar photos are great.  Did you take them? Where did they come from?  The photos and your sketches really help to understand how it is laid out.

NOTE TO BILL:  Thank you so much for the information you've provided, and I hope you continue posting.  My husband and I will be going to Fall River next March or April and plan on staying at the Bed & Breakfast.  I sincerely hope we'll get to meet you.

I apologize for the long post but I was so excited about Haulover's post because as I stated in the beginning, years ago I put it together that Monday August 8th was THE day that Alice Russell began to look at Lizzie in a way she never had before.

Hello to you and welcome!
Long informative posts are also welcome.

I was looking over what Hyde's statement was and then reading you and haulover.
I think you are enthusiastic and intuitive which is always a plus here.
Your awareness of Alice's feelings really make her come alive.  She is a favorite here amongst quite a few, almost a heroine.

I do have a comment but it doesn't change your ultimate deductions...it is merely a glitch in the apparant sequence of events, due to Hyde's misstatement of what he claims Alice told him, his error, I'd like to make clear.
He says Alice said *I slept here last night* implying to us, in that room with the club, Sunday night.
But Alice switched rooms Saturday  (Inq.).
She says it's not because of the *stick* but she is still so fearful of the subject, as you observed, that when questioned she was treated very gently and told they waited to ask her about the discovery until she felt prepared to talk about it.
So I think she did switch because of the stick, she tells Hanscomb about it and he asks Emma, but Alice doesn't say when she told him and also says :
154
A.  I told it to Detective Handscomb; and he asked Emma. I dont think the girl knew anything about that I found it.

--So if it was a warning, something creepy, it was put there, if it just appeared Saturday, before the funeral.  Alice noticed it around 10 a.m. Saturday.
OOO What if Lizzie snuck in the bedroom and put it there Friday night?
I don't think Alice got much sleep there that weekend.  She should have had the benefit of the morphine.
--Anyway, you can see that this bit doesn't really interfere with the theory that there was a very frightened Alice in that murder house as she added up the oddities...
--Thank you for the kind words about the attachments.  Since I learned how there's no stopping me..
The cellar snaps are from Stef's video of the house which can be seen at:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/TableofContents.htm
and click on the middle bottom title on the purple page "See My Movie" from her tour 1997.

----So what was happening in the dynamics of that family Friday night into Saturday morning that would have that stick appear under the elder Borden's bed?

(Message last edited Jul-26th-03  11:53 PM.)

Okay you guys have got me thinking.
But what I have are questions:

If the stuff that Alice witnessed (The attempt to burn the dress, the club under her bed) happened by Sunday morning, why did she stay?
Admittedly Hyde implies Alice did not know of the secret cellar visit of Lizzie Thursday night  until Monday..but that is not exactly scary to Alice or implicating Alice like those other actions.
Why did she not leave, tell a cop who was on the premises, and just go home?

The other thing to consider is that the funeral was Saturday and there were scads of visitors in the house that morning.  I was under the impression Alice did not go to the funeral, and found the club after everyone left...is this so?

Could it be that Andy did have real enemies, and kept it there for defense? I once knew of an older former relative who did just that, after his son was killed by someone who was said to be using drugs.

I wonder why she didn't notice it the first night? Could someone have put it there when she was downstairs?

I don't understand why the club would have been a warning,
a horses head in your bed is a warning -- but just a stick
under it? I've always thought she thought it was the murder
weapon.

I think Alice might have thought something naively along those lines because she does say she thought it implicated her.  Knowlton's reply was to the effect that it implicated Alice about as much as it implicated him.

I got to thinking more about Alice's motives in staying after I questioned *why did she stay*?
For it seems she left finally because she was concerned with what her own involvement may have looked like to the authorities.
She is judging Lizzie's action of burning a dress as suspicious-looking and leaves the room, maybe in order not to witness this.
She believes the whittled stick implicates herself, somehow.
If she doesn't know until Monday about the lone cellar visit by Lizzie that might not have looked like it reflected on herself.

I don't know how scared Alice was, now that I look at the situation more closely.  She may have been more fearful of her own reputation.  Besides which she was a spinster female (as opposed to a spinster male) living alone unchaperoned with 2 other spinsters and their Uncle Morse.  Bridget was there one night, but she was spinster too.
Murder is horrendus but spinsters alone in a house unchaperoned with a bachelor male and dead bodies, seems to be the epitome of scandal and a ruined reputation.
Even after reading the newspaper, why did Alice stay?

***About fifteen minutes after this conversation, Miss Russell came to me and told me she would like me to come up stairs, she wanted me to see something.***

it was this in particular that seems significant to me.  that alice, after already witnessing suspicious things, learns that apparently lizzie had been sneaking around behind her back that night in going down to the cellar.  can you see how this might be more frightening to think of than what she had seen of that dress?  not that alice would have had a clue as to what lizzie could have been doing to go back down to the cellar -- but just the idea that lizzie had obviously chosen to do so behind her back when lizzie knew she (alice) was privately preoccupied.

now see lizzie deny any such trip whatsoever (either with or without alice):

Q.  Let me refresh your memory.  You came down in the night to get some water with Miss Russell, along towards night, or in the evening, to get some water with Miss Russell?
A. Thursday night? I don't remember it.
notice, kat, this is a "pause")
Q. Don't you remember coming down sometime to get some toilet water?
A. No, sir; there was no toilet water down stairs.
Q. Or to empty slops?
A. I don't know whether I did Thursday evening or not.  I am not sure.
Q. You think it may have been some other evening?
A. I don't remember coming down with her to do such a thing.  I may have, I can't tell whether it was Thursday evening or any other evening.

i've been over this adnauseum, i know, but i can't help but comment here on the weirdness in lizzie's answers.  she doesn't remember doing it thursday night, she doesn't remember any such thing at all; yet she may have without being able to remember which night it was.

obviously it's lizzie giving him the runaround.  the question is:  what would lizzie have been doing to go down there and bend over at the sink?

the stick under the bed (in and of itself) probably has nothing to do with what this means.

I am only pointing out that if Hyde was correct with his Monday date of Aug. 8th of informing Alice of Lizzie's lone cellar visit & that same Monday Alice was leaving to go back to her home and back to her work, anyway, she may not have left, frightened, out of the Borden house, until or maybe unless she showed Hyde the stick and put one and one and one together to make 3, but she is leaving anyway..  It may not have even accrued in her mind until even later than that, that these were a series of odd occurrences.
I don't particulary see that Lizzie's lone trip to the cellar would even be scary or seem unnatural to Alice.  She may have given her friend the benefit of the doubt on that, or chided herself for thinking it might have sinister connotations until later also.  Showing Hyde the stick after hearing of the cellar visit does not necessarily seem to correlate in my mind, but other's may not agree.
If these things happened one at a time and Alice was of aware of them at each happening, I could think she may have accrued enough knowledge of shady things, be scared, and leave.
But they didn't and she didn't.  Leave that is.
Besides which the cellar visit by Lizzie does not affect Alice, so I don't see why it would scare her.

Now, bringing up the cellar visit, alone, is something mysterious to us all by itself.  The area Lizzie visited was near the bloody pile of material gathered to be buried, but far enough away that it is pretty certain she did not meddle with that...where was it?  5 or 6 feet away and Hyde did not see Lizzie leave the sink area.
What was in that area was her wet pail of bloody cloths, and a sink with a cupboard, right?
What do you or anyone think she could do in that spot that might shed light on this case?

Outside of Lincoln's description that this was where women normally put their menstrual cloths in preparation for washing I could only think of one thing.  This is just speculation, but, perhaps Lizzie brought her bloodstained Bedford Cord dress down there and put it under the sink, hoping to get a chance to presoak it before Bridget does the wash.  Bridget leaves the house for good, no laundry will be done that Monday, Lizzie needs to get rid of that dress since she won't or can't be seen doing laundry.  Hence the burning of the dress. 

i'm just trying to get inside alice's head.  maybe i'm putting too much paranoia in there, but i would be pretty creeped out by now.  15 minutes after learning that lizzie returned to the cellar after the door was shut between us and i read a newspaper article about the crime and did some bathing, etc. -- i then want to talk to the officer and give some info.  it's much like the way she later wanted to tell the dress-burning incident when she did not have to.

alice's first response is to say, "that could not be."  but apparently she believes him.  she has a few minutes to remember that night.  this is speculation, but what is she remembering?  that lizzie indicated to her that she was "afraid to go down there by herself" for example? 

i guess i'm saying that alice is beginning to worry not only that she might be implicated but that lizzie has been deceiving her -- using her?

to judge from alice's trial testimony, that particular block of time when lizzie returned to the cellar was not "lights out goodnight" -- but she saw lizzie in her room afterwards. 

if i were alice, i would have at least wanted to ask lizzie why she went back down that night without saying a word about it -- what she did, why, etc.  it would have been puzzling if alice had had the impression that lizzie was afraid to go down alone.  alice herself was apparently afraid -- it must have seemed strange to her.

this is not a "solution" to anything, but i thought i understood something about alice's feelings at this point.  she did not stay another night.  she did stay on after finding the stick; she just changed rooms, right? 

she finally perceived of the dishonest lizzie we see in the inquest and left?  and later in her mind she could backtrack?

also, i'm intrigued by a visual from the point of view of the officer concerning the nightly cellar trips.  cinematic or literary.  a light appears in sitting room windows, moves into kitchen, reappears in cellar.  alice holds lamp, lamp-light shaking, as lizzie walks steadily (in contrast) to water closet.  shortly after, light appears again; this time just lizzie, but i can't make out what she's doing at the sink.

what lizzie does at sink -- i dont' know.  i can't think of anything better than susan's idea.

i guess we've been here before, but by monday, alice might have been downright afraid of lizzie?  i'd have to check her testimony again, but did alice leave monday morning?






 

i understand alice was leaving anyway.  but her opinion of lizzie was in the works while she was there.  she is seeing more and more DECEIT in her heretofore friend.

alice would have been one of the best interviews to get in the later years.  no one got one that i'm aware of, but i thought i saw a picture of an elderly alice russell somewhere.

Yes Alice left Monday supposedly after talking to Hanscomb about the dress burning incident.
(Preliminary, Alice, her last 2 sentences):
Q.  Do you know whether there was another search made Monday?
A.  No, I do not know. I came away Monday morning.

She did stay after finding the club under the bed Saturday morning, she saw the ripping of the dress Sunday morning, chided Lizzie for doing it in front of possible sight of police, and it's not until later Alice figures it was the wrong thing for Lizzie to do because it would look suspicious.  I think she was more naive and less scared & suspicious.  (Else, as I say, she would have left.  Her thinking possibly that Lizzie was doing guilty things would have made her feel guilty for thinking this, and she wouln't stay under those circumstances, would she?)
At that point, yet, Monday, I doubt Alice was scared.  She seemed pretty level-headed.  I have the view myself that she did not ascribe negative and suspicious connotations to the actions of Lizzie until possibly Monday, if at all that time period.  Hyde gave the wrong date of Alice staying in that room.  He may have exaggerrated her *excitement* when she showed him the club Monday after he told her of Lizzie's cellar visit.  Yet Alice was somewhat upset about that in particular.  I think Alice was more upset about that than anything else that happened in that house since carrying the light down stairs to the cellar for Lizzie.
(But again it's Hyde.  He could be a budding dime-novel writer in his use of his subjective descriptions...Alice shaking, Alice excited...)
.........

Here is Edson in the cellar Friday.
I'm including it because I think if Lizzie hid her dress down there Thursday night, I wanted to see what went on in the cellar Friday morning because I remembered there was not much search that day but they did take away the axes and hatchets that early morning, and remember where they were stored after collection Thursday?  You guessed it.
A dress of that time might be 8 yards of material.  So I was trying to think if that could be secreted down by Lizzie to that cupboard and not be found Friday because I knew there were officers in that washroom Friday morning.

Witness Statements, 35, Edson:
"Fall River Mass. Friday Aug. 5, 1892.
At 5.55 A. M. went from the Police Station to the residence of the late A. J. Borden, No 92 Second street. Arrived there about 6 A. M. entered house by the side door on North side of the house. Officer Harrington was on duty at the door. The door from the entry to kitchen was open. J. V. Morse was in front of the stove; we did not speak. I went down cellar from the entry, went into the wash room in the southmost corner of the cellar. On the floor were two axes and a single hatchet. On a bench or table were a number of wet towels. There was blood on the towels.  I went up stairs with the axes and hatchet, met Harrington at the door. Harrington said “there was one more hatchet in the cellar.” I went down cellar again, Harrington with me. In the vegetable cellar, off wash room, Harrington handed me a hatchet from a shelf or scaffold. We then went up stairs, and out of the house. On the steps I saw John V. Morse coming from the back yard. I said “good morning”; he answered. I went from there directly to the Police Station; arriving there about 6.23 A. M."....etc.

This is the problem with Lizzie hiding a dress down there.  The police came Very Early, Friday.  If Hyde had made his report of the night's activity, an officer could have checked that area where Lizzie was seen.  That's not to imply he did report by Friday morn because we don't know.

--Also at some point Lizzie did secrete that dress to the kitchen cupboard by Sunday morning so she would have been moving it around.  Emma says it was on a nail in the clothes press Saturday night tho.
If Lizzie took it down to the wash cellar Thursday night, then Emma saw it in the closet upstairs Saturday night, only to have Lizzie pull parts of it out of the kitchen cupboard Sunday morning...that's really moving that dress around!  In a way it seems funny, in a way it seems very serious.  So do you think that dress was really what Lizzie was doing in the wash cellar on her own Thursday?
I wonder if she was tampering with a hatchet?
(Tho it's said they were collected in the southern part of the room and I think Lizzie stayed in the east part)
--Here's the thing tho.
It seems that all the evidence was in that wash room Thursday night, except the bodies and the Handel-less hatchet!   Lizzie could have had a field day in there!  As long as Hyde blinked, or was a bit off in his reportage Lizzie actually had the access to everything!  Can we imagine?

The reason I speculated about the dress is because that second trip to the cellar seemed secretive, something Lizzie didn't want Alice to see her doing or hiding, evidence?  I tend to disbelieve Emma's testimony about the Bedford Cord just hanging up there in that closet in plain view when the police were specifically looking for it.  We went over that amount of nails that would have been open, especially since Emma had garments packed for her trip to Fairhaven.  Yet, she states in her testimony that there was no free nail and she wanted to know why Lizzie hadn't disposed of her "old" dress yet, it sounds too rehearsed to me.  I don't buy it.

Lizzie allowed that the black cotton stockings she wore that day may have been washed before she handed them over to the police.  What a coup for her if she was able to present them with the Bedford Cord dress all spiffy clean, with no blood stains.  Thats where the idea popped into my head that perhaps her thought was to wash that dress out when she had a moment, but, maybe it never came.

Yes, I see what you mean with all that evidence sitting there in plain view in the wash room.  I remembered that Hyde had said that Lizzie thrust something under the sink, alas, a Lincolnism!  Found his trial testimony:

Q. Did you see either of those persons later than that?
A. In a few minutes after, perhaps ten or fifteen minutes, Miss Lizzie came out of the same door, of the sitting room door, into the kitchen, in the same way, down into the cellar.  She came into the wash cellar, and she puts her lamp on to a table on the west end of the cellar.  She comes over to the east end of the house, where the sink is, and stooped down opposite to the sink.  What she did I don't know.

Q. Was any one with her at that time?
A. She was all alone.

Q. How long did she stay in the cellar at that time?
A. It didn't take her above two minutes before she went upstairs again.

So, now the question is, what could Lizzie possibly have been doing there stooping by the sink for about 2 minutes?  I think if she picked up one of the hatchets or axes, Hyde would have made note of it.  I wish we had more of a notation as to what was actually under that wash room sink! 

This little part of Hyde's testimony is curious:

".....She came into the wash cellar, and she puts her lamp on to a table on the west end of the cellar.  She comes over to the east end of the house, where the sink is, and stooped down opposite to the sink.  What she did I don't know."

The stairs when they enter the cellar are on the east side.  If Hyde is taken literally why would Lizzie walk the length of the cellar to the west end and put down the lamp on a table and then walk back to east end where the sink is?  How can anybody see anything when the lamp is on the other end of that dark cellar?  Also when she left the sink room she would have to back down to the west and get the lamp to go back upstairs. Hyde does not mention that.

Could it be a ruse by Lizzie trying to make the police believe she went to the west end and then sneak back to east end in the dark?  If it was it didn't work because Hyde seen her in the sink room.  How, I don't know.  But would Lizzie have known Hyde seen her?

More damn questions.

From my understanding, when Hyde says that Lizzie comes into the wash cellar he means she came into the wash room.  So, the table on the west end of the room would be near the hearth, the #2 on this diagram, where she set the lamp down on.  Lizzie turns and goes to the sink, she stoops down by it and I imagine is hidden from Hyde's sight line at that point.

Okay, I see what you mean Susan, thanks.

I took Hyde literally when he "end" of the house. He means end of the wash room.

That drawing always confuses me in that it is upside down. North is at the bottom so you have to flip it to orient yourself.

You're welcome, Harry.  I find it confusing too, thats why I really liked Kat's drawing, besides being more accurate, she did it so that you are facing the house from the street.  To me, that would be my logical standpoint.  Even though at that point, the left side of the house is north.  You know, come to think of it, why didn't anyone ever do any diagrams of the Borden house looking from the south side of the house to the north, so that the north side would be on top? 

I thought you did mean just accross the room and that's what I pictured and I still thought it was a valid question, an interesting observation anyway.  Why Lizzie put the lamp on the opposite side of the room from where she lingered.
That part, the wash room, looks to be almost 1/3 the full length of the cellar.
The Kieran dimensions were 4.5" as the length of the house in his scheme, where he plotted 1" =4'.
That should give you the length of the wash room. 
(Is that =18' the length of the house and if the wash room is 1/3 that is 6 feet long?)
It sounds odd to know she put down the light away from what she might have been doing...6 feet away?  Behind her?
Which means she did not need the light to do it, and/or she did not want to be seen in the direct light.
Or she could have been raised to always put the lamp ON something like a bench and not the floor in case it was kicked over?
I don't know.about such habits.

I have a feeling it was something small she brought there, or something she came to take away, or that she did tamper with something which was there. 

(Message last edited Jul-30th-03  2:30 AM.)

I just checked Rebello and he has had that view reproduced pg 48.
It is an interesting cut-away from the south!

Any way to scan it?  I'd love to see it! 

Hey, Tandi, Alice Russell is my favorite woman in the case, and Phillip Harrington my favorite man.  I like Bill Pavao, too, whom I've met and with whom I've chatted in person and by phone a few times over the years.   

Could Alice have thought Lizzie, along with ripping a dress and risking looking suspicious, had moved that club under the bed for God know what reason?  Miss Russell and I dare say all of the civilians in the case were not the forensic whizzes that (ahem) we are.  They didn't watch THE NEW DETECTIVES on TV every night!  So, Alice may have thought that club was one of the murderer's tools, for all we know, and maybe that's why she was seemingly so upset. 

was lizzie keeping a secret from alice that night when she returned to the cellar?

I think I would assume so.
Lizzie was ready to go alone the first time, is the impression gven, and she had to sound gracious to Alice in her offer to accompany her.
So that first visit was a bust, definetly.  And the next, alone, accomplished the real purpose.
I wonder how many more times that weekend Lizzie might have wished Alice had gone home?  Or whether she did value her support, or whether Lizzie used Alice in ways Alice never understood.
It's possible Alice was used, from Wednesday nite on.  But isn't that taking a big gamble?  What was Lizzie's pay-off for using Alice, do you-all think?

Or maybe wanted to do something (pharting, diarhea, etc.) and didn't want any witnesses who would then gossip like crazY.
Was Alice Russell known to gossip?

One question for you all: Why did Alice wait so many months before talking to her lawyer and then going to the Prosecutor? Was there something going on? Remember, LAB first sent Bridget to fetch Alice, that is the ONLY time somebody left the house, and the ONLY time a package could have been carried away.

I believe AR Brown's solution, but my mind is open.

Well gee, how do we know when Alice sought legal advice?
The next hearing after the Prelim was the private grand jury inquisition, at which Alice appeared.  Is there any souce for when she made up her mind?
The Inquest & Prelim happened pretty fast.
After a breathing spell to re-coup, might be when Alice started putting things together..aided by legal advice, news accounts and yes, maybe gossip....
Did she have to pay this guy?  Matbe, too, she had to save up for an apppointment & retainer.

--The first to leave was Bridget to get Dr. Bowen.
Then Bridget to get Alice.
Then Churchill to the stables.
Then Allen to the station house
Then Dr. Bowen to the telegraph
Then I think Bridget left again to get Mrs. Dr. Bowen, but I think another cop came and went as well.
Then Mrs. Dr. Bowen left and Mrs. Churchill left and later Bridget left again on an *errand* and then  Bridget left for the night.
Alice also left about 6 p.m. to run home and return.

If one thinks something was secreted out of the house....Pick a person.

(Message last edited Aug-1st-03  3:17 AM.)

Susan, in the book Proceedings , pg. 195, there is a supposition in an article by Paul Fletcher, "Memories of Borden Boyhood..." that :
"Only Lizzie's shoes and black stockings would have necessarily been splattered [with blood] and she could have disposed of the stockings in her slop-pail..."
Since the bloody pail was in the cellar Thursday night maybe Lizzie  had secreted her stockings in there and went to fetch them up to her room.  She could then hang them to dry in Emmas room over-night.
Is this the sort of thing you were getting at with the cellar visit?

But WHY would Alice need to see a lawyer? Very unusual if she was innocent. Unless she knew more than she said?

Yes, something like that, Kat.  I was mulling that over in my mind, if Lizzie was wearing the Bedford Cord dress, which was cotton and ribbed like corduroy, that would have absorbed most of the few blood spatters that there were.  Then there is Lizzie's petticoat, cotton too I assume, which would absorb what would soak through the dress, though if heavily starched, the blood may have sat on top of that surface.  My thinking is that possibly the only place Lizzie's stockings would get blood on them is where they came into heavy contact with the petticoat and skirt, Lizzie's knees and her thighs just above.  If Lizzie was wearing cotton drawers too, thats an added layer of protection on her upper thighs as the drawers usually came down to your knees.  So, I'm thinking around the kneecaps may have had some blood seepage.

Then I was thinking that if Lizzie was straddling Abby, her skirts would be lifted on top of Abby, her ankles and shins may have been exposed to blood spatter.  So, yes, I could see Lizzie possibly washing out her stockings, or letting them soak secretively.  I don't see her hanging them in Emma's room to dry at this point as Emma was home and in her room, unless it was a normal occurence to rinse one's stockings out on a fairly daily basis? 

So, if Lizzie was taking something from under that sink, the stockings would have had to already been down there.  Maybe she stuck them down there or oooooo, maybe thats where that second bloody apron popped up in the bloody clothes in the cellar waiting to be buried? 

Yes it's very unusual for girls to get lawyers back then.
Yet Lizzie and Emma had one Friday, Bridget had one, why not Alice?

She could have put them down there after she used them and also hid the weapon.  Then she got them out of the pail after the search and brought them upstairs.  By now Emma knows what's going on.  Or Lizzie can say she stepped in blood and still be guiltless.  Sure why not dry them in Emma's room.  It has a private door and they can hang longer without being seen.  If it was humid that would affect the length of time to dry.
Lizzie might have just come up from the cellar that day because she stood at the back stairs to call for Bridget, just feet from the cellar door.
If she had found her father as she described, why not let out a shriek right then and there --  Bridget would surely hear that.  Lizzie need not go to the stairway to call Bridget down.

Lizzie also need not have been wearing her normal ensemble of underthings that day, petticoats and bloomers etc.  But stockings would be noticed if they were absent.

I checked our *Lizzie's Fleas* thread from before and Dolan seems to be the one who actually examined the cloths from the pail, casually and they were stored in the Marshal's office, when they took the pail....BUT  we don't know when they took the pail.  I was beginning to think it might not have been there Thursday night because Hyde is asked if he had been in the house earlier and seen the pail and he had.  But not asked that about that Thursday night .  That night he only testified to seeing Lizzie where the sink would be, but could not see the sink.
I found that Mullaly took the pail [Dolan, Prelim, 188]-- but I don't know when...does anyone?
Robinson in closing says pretty much that Lizzie was visiting that pail Thursday night and implies we all know what for.
That's the only place where I actually find someone specifying that bloody pail was still there Thursday night.
I wonder if they took it Friday early a.m. when they got the hatchets and axes.
Was Mullaly there Friday morn?
I see Edson in Witness Statements, 35, sees the bloody towels Friday early morning.

(Message last edited Aug-3rd-03  4:29 AM.)

I see I am talking about the pail and you are talking about the sink.
But I don't know if something incriminating could have been secreted under the sink yet survived Thursday's search.  That's why I concentrated on the pail.  That was already explained , they first thought.

I think, in my opinion, that probably when Lizzie was ready to go down cellar the first time, when Alice horned in, that whatever Lizzie had or was going to put or take, she would have it on her the first attempt, unknowing she would have a companion.
Unless she was meaning to get something and take it back to her room- then that something would not be too bulky or obvious, or Alice would have noticed  as they went down or came back up.
If her plan was foiled firstly by Alice volunteering, Lizzie may have put away whatever she might be bringing down, and that's why she had to make the second trip.
But it still seems as if the something already bloody was involved.
So if you say maybe Lizzie brought down a bloody apron Thursday night and added it to the stack of stuff in the cellar that does not involve the sink, which was where she was seen....  And she would have secreted that apron in her room all Thursday? ... That might work.
Stockings in the pail retrieved, or apron hidden amongst bloody clothes as 2nd clandestine cellar vist?
(Bloody clothes buried in yard, Friday- W.S., 42)

I wonder about the "bloody towels" Officer Edson spotted on a table in the cellar?  Were these those menstruation towels that had been seen in the pail earlier?  Is it possible that the police emptied the buckets earlier?  Where else could those towels have come from?

Witness Statements, 35, Edson:
"Fall River Mass. Friday Aug. 5, 1892.
At 5.55 A. M. went from the Police Station to the residence of the late A. J. Borden, No 92 Second street. Arrived there about 6 A. M. entered house by the side door on North side of the house. Officer Harrington was on duty at the door. The door from the entry to kitchen was open. J. V. Morse was in front of the stove; we did not speak. I went down cellar from the entry, went into the wash room in the southmost corner of the cellar. On the floor were two axes and a single hatchet. On a bench or table were a number of wet towels. There was blood on the towels.  I went up stairs with the axes and hatchet, met Harrington at the door. Harrington said “there was one more hatchet in the cellar.” I went down cellar again, Harrington with me. In the vegetable cellar, off wash room, Harrington handed me a hatchet from a shelf or scaffold. We then went up stairs, and out of the house. On the steps I saw John V. Morse coming from the back yard. I said “good morning”; he answered. I went from there directly to the Police Station; arriving there about 6.23 A. M."....etc.

Yes, I was talking about what was under the sink, which included that pail of bloody cloths.  My thought is that Lizzie wanted to get something she had secreted there under the sink and was using emptying her slop pail as a ruse to go down there and a storage place to bring the whatever back up possibly.  Alice coming along with her screwed up that little plan, notice how Lizzie instructed Alice to hold the lamp, not the pail, it may have been empty and Alice would have known.

Thats true, Lizzie may have not been wearing all of her usual undergear while in the Bedford Cord housedress, I'm just making an assumption with that.  If Lizzie wasn't wearing a petticoat with the Bengaline dress, would the ladies present notice or not?  Would Lizzie's lower limbs show through the dress skirt more without a petticoat while seated?  The closest we have today is wearing a slip under a skirt, it gives you a smoother line, I'm wondering if it was the same with the petticoat.

Okay, hows this for some speculation, under the sink cabinet is a secret hiding place, you know how sink cabinets have that toe-kick area under the front edge that is a few inches above the floor?  And when you open the cabinet doors, the bottom of the cabinet is up above the toe-kick, so, there is a space of about 3 inches or so under there that is open space.  Could there have been a loose board in that sink cabinet so that something could be placed under it for awhile?  A bloody apron?  A bloody dress? 

Just my assumption, Joe, but I've always thought those wet, bloody towels that were on the table were from when the doctors and such washed and dried their hands after handling the bodies.

From Albert E. Chase in the Witness Statements, in the articles of bloody things buried there are 3 towels and 1 napkin.  These may have been what was on the table there. 

***Lizzie might have just come up from the cellar that day because she stood at the back stairs to call for Bridget, just feet from the cellar door.
If she had found her father as she described, why not let out a shriek right then and there --  Bridget would surely hear that.  Lizzie need not go to the stairway to call Bridget down. ***

that is an excellent point!  i had never literally thought of it that way.  that might seem minor to some, but not in my judgement, because it's important to understand her actions moment to moment without the benefit of a witness. 

i think sometimes we're too close to it to see the obvious.  which makes more sense?  that lizzie saw it, backed up, and walked to the foot of the stairs and shouted?  or that she shouted as she got upstairs from the cellar?

Some may propose that Lizzie's instinct was to get out the back door or at least as close to the exit as possible while not actually leaving the house- sort of like protecting her fathers body, yet ready to escape if the murderer showed up.
But I think the front door is much closer for an exit and she surely can still scream from there AND capture the attention of the Second Street *loiterers* at the same time, to come and *help* her.
So I think there might very well be a cellar connection before Lizzie calls down Bridget.
If Lizzie called outside any door for help,  that would necessarily bring someone beyond her control.  She seems to specifically and calculatingly call for those she knows , and whose movements she can direct, which she does.
(Imagine Mr. Pettee being first on the scene, or Southard Miller or Thomas Boulds?)

Susan, I couldn't think how Lizzie could have secreted voluminous material under the sink throughout the whole Thursday search, but now that you postulate a hidden place under the sink inside a cabinent that makes more sense to me.  That might be the Bedford cord since that was destroyed, not an apron.  (Unless you think there was the cord dress AND the apron?  There can be both I suppose.)

Joe, I had always thought the *towels*  seen wet in the cellar Friday morning were the menstrual towels still in their pail.
If they were still wet, they must have been recently in water, or still in water.  I thought maybe he just left the description of them in a pail out of his statement.  Robinson pretty much says the pail was in the washroom Thursday night in Lizzie's defense.  So I tend to think the pail and the axes/hatchets were all removed by the police Friday morning.
(I don't find that the pail is under the sink tho.)
Towels used by the autopsy team --would they still be wet from Thursday 4:30 or so?

If Lizzie's Bedford Cord was bloodstained, yes, I would think she would need to put it somewhere until the coast was clear.  The bloody apron, still not sure about, but, it may be a way to explain that extra bloody apron that was buried?

As for the wet towels, I'm working under the assumption that the Borden basement is damp.  No concrete floor, just dirt, so there may be moisture exchange going on.  From Stefani's video, there is a sump pump in the basement as the cellar tends to flood from the nearby Quequechan river.  My parents house had a sump pump as the house was built over natural springs and every spring during the thaw, the cellar would flood.  The cellar was always on the damp and cool side except for when the furnace was on in winter.  Wet towels just thrown in a wad onto a table in a damp basement, I don't think they'd be all that dry.  Just my speculation.  Its possible that they were Lizzie's menstrual cloths, but, could you see a guy just reaching in that pail and scooping them out? 

Well I can't see a guy reaching in and scooping them out because it's not determined that a guy did that.
The towels are either actually on the bench and are not Lizzie's or they are in the pail on the bench and are the menstrual towels.
Dolan is the only one who examined the towels as I posted earlier.
I think we do need to arrive at an agreement as to whether the pail of menstrual cloths were still in the cellar Thursday night.
I gave my investigation results, can anyone find more.  We need proof.

--Postulated:  Bloody towels from the autopsy, found Friday, buried with the clothes.
Also pail with bloody menstrual cloths, found Thursday and taken away...when?

(Message last edited Aug-4th-03  1:36 PM.)

Lizzie and Emma needed one for the estate handling, and the murders.
Bridget was a material witness for the trial, like JVM.

If you were ever a witness to a crime, would you need one?

It could be that she did just that and nobody heard? So she went to the foot of the stairs to call, since the door had to be open in that heat.
Maybe she was too stunned and amazed to cry out?
...
Or Lizzie thought fast and decided it was too early to call out to the public if Father was merely injured. What did she know at that time, not afterwards?

(Message last edited Aug-4th-03  4:09 PM.)

Found this for what it's worth; Joseph Hyde's Trial testimony, page 849:

Q. Had you seen that pail there with those cloths in it?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where was that standing?
A. That pail, when I see it, it was standing on the south side of the wash cellar.

Q. Well, that is pretty near where you were?
A. Pretty near where I was.

Q. And that pail was pretty near the sink, wasn't it?
A. Yes, sir.

This is while they were questioning him about when he saw Lizzie make her second trip alone to the cellar and she stooped by the sink.

I've been through all the other documents and couldn't find out when exactly the pail of bloody cloths was taken. 

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archive203/Lborden/LBoutofprivy.htm

I tried putting this into Word doc and attaching but the doc was more than 75k, the limit.
I tried transferring it to "Simple Text" but that was too large to be read.
So here is all we collected about the pail last June.  Just add Edson, Witness Statements, 35.
It's in black and can be copied/printed.

Yes thanks.  That questioning refers to when Hyde was inside earlier.
It's odd when the testimony transcribed is truncated.  It can seem to mean almost anything. (See post #32)
Others may not have noted the difference.

Thank you so much for looking!  Knowing someone is looking helps a lot!

(Message last edited Aug-5th-03  1:01 AM.)

Okay, I see what you're saying.  The questioner implies that the pail was still there, but, Hyde never states that it was when he saw Lizzie in the cellar wash room!

I was reading through the archives you had posted the link to and saw your post about Mullaly actually being the one to handle the 3 menstrual cloths that were found in the pail and that they ended up at the Marshall's office, but, not when.

Do you think there may be some newspaper account? 

That seems to be what the posting group decided at the time, but a year later it seems more to me that the axes and hatchets were what they were examining, and not the bloody cloths.
Still, that was a subjective determination of ambiguous testimony, so I suppose we leave that still open to interpretation.
So far, as yet, it seems the Doctor was the one to examine them, IMO.

Preliminary
Mulally
Pg. 347- 8

Q:  Did you take any notice of the hatchets when you got them down?
A:  I did

Q:  What did you notice about them?
A:  One was larger than the other

Q:  Any thing else?
A:  On the larger one, there was a small rust spot

Q:  Anything else?
A:  That was all I noticed.  On the axes, both handles were covered with ashes

Q:  Anything else?
A:  Then while I was in the wash room, I believe it was Mr. Doherty called my attention to some cloths in a pail.

Q:  Skip them now.  You looked at them?
A:  We took them out, and looked at them, and put them back again.  No, I wont say I put them back again.

(Mr. Adams)  "You disclaim any connection?"
(Mr. Knowlton)  "For this hearing to this Court, I make no claim about those things, whatever.  I do not bind myself to any accidental future discoveries.  So far as I am at present advised, I make no claim."

--We know they left the weapons that they found overnight in the wash cellar until Friday, so when he says he took them out but decides he didn't put them back, I believe he is referring to moving those weapons to the wash room floor.  (Except for the HH.)

Ah, which just adds to the confusion!  Lets talk about one thing and switch gears and talk about another without giving much idea we are doing so, just the, "Lets not speak of them."  You'd think someone would have jumped up and said something, to which do you refer?  If we're confused now, they probably were then too! 

You're right and I hadn't thought of it that way!

I think I would make a pretty bad (or good, if they changed the rules) Juror.  I think I would be raising my hand asking questions.
I couldn't just sit and be a spectator like at the movies and depend upon the system to just let the story *unfold*!

Me too!    I'd be the most hated juror for holding up preceedings to understand everything clearly.  I'd be bumped or let go or impeached, whatever they do to jurors they don't want.

I think they made a movie about you...something along the lines of
"11 Angry Men Plus One".

We are at a crossroads here.
Do we agree the pail was still in the cellar overnight Thursday?
The police found interesting stuff, but if we review it, they really didn't take anything until Friday, did they?
There were axes, hatchets, clothing of the deceased, bedspread, pillow shams, the list of *evidence* that was bloodied, in the cellar, the pail, Lizzie's dress and stockings and shoes, right?  Did all that stay on the premises overnight?

I'm just chiming in here because I just finished reading about when some things were collected. 

According to Doherty and Harrington they took: "a marble slat from the west end of the dressing case, a piece of moulding that capped the mop-board, and a piece of plaster to which was adhered the wall paper.  Each of these articles had blood on them."  Then Mrs. C.J. Holmes asked them if they wanted the bed spread and the pillow shams -- so they took those too. And at the same time they collected one pair of ladies low tie shoes, and one pair of ladies black stockings.  Then they got the willow basket from the barn with the lead pipe, scrap sheet lead pieces, etc.  All this was taken from the premises on Wednesday, August 10th, brought to the station house, and locked in the store room by Marshal Hilliard. (Witness Statements, 14)

I haven't read this whole thread -- so I'm not even sure what you're looking for here or if this helps at all.  But it looks like blood-stained evidence was still there well into the week following the murders.

i can't come up with anything new either.  i've read through that archive you posted, i've read through several archives, trial, prelim, inquest, witnesses, etc.etc.

i get a general impression that lizzie had all night thursday to do whatever she needed to do to cover.  i discovered one thing in my imagination i might have considered had i a bloody dress to get rid of -- for starters, i might have ripped the thing up into so many little pieces that it could not even be called a "dress."  what you can't do with hands, you've got scissors, and of course, you've always got the stove.  (she might well have done something along these lines.)

i think i responded to hyde's statement because it gives a good visual about how lizzie could be sneaky -- we get to see her in action, bending over at the sink for two minutes for god knows what (to put something or take something, apparently).

just remember the police had already gone over the house once and THEY had contaminated sufficiently themselves.  at that point, thursday night, lizzie pretty much had it made as far as getting rid of something.  how easy to have added an extra bloody apron to that pile in the cellar (and i don't mean necessarily when the officer saw her down there with a lamp either).  think of it.  she could have added something incriminating to the dining room where the bodies were laid out.  after all, it wasn't lizzie messing around in there that day but the officers and doctors and so forth.  if lizzie's axe was still down there, didn't she then have time for some REAL HEAVY DUTY cleaning?  my point being that if there was any difference in any of the evidence in the cellar or anywhere else friday -- it was for the officers to argue about among themselves, wasn't it?  some of the statements almost sound that way.  "hey, i thought there were two hatchets there?  is that a third?"  "i don't know, i saw a hatchet in that box over there."  "what are those cloths hanging up there like that?"  "no one touched that pail, that must be from the doctors when they washed up."  (those quotes are my make-believe, but see what i mean?)

that is the general picture i get without any one particular piece of evidence "solving" the general picture.  lizzie had a big window of opportunity thursday night.  (funny i just made a connection between lizzie returning to the cellar that night to put something there WITHOUT alice.....then later, finally lizzie is trying to burn stuff right in front of her.........alice might have been a big pain in the ass to her.)

in fact, consider this:  lizzie first uses alice in order to have a witness that threatening things were happening at the borden house, she has forebodings, she has seen strange men running around, etc.  but then it is alice's dress-burning "confession" that seems to bring about the actual trial.   someone, i think kat, asked, well what was the payoff?  i mean, what was the ultimate payoff by involving alice?  The Legend of Lizzie Borden?  (that's something else that puzzles me so much about lizzie, she can seem so smart on the one hand, and so dumb on the other.)

one thing to add to what i was saying about the officers and the evidence:  i read from morse (i think, trial, but it's prob elsewhere as well) he says he saw a man putting hatchets in a bag.  then look at this from the witness statements, friday, aug 26 (fl edson, constable) "j.v. morse testified that one ax and three hatches were taken from the house, put in a light colored bag of coarse material, and caried away.  this is false."  and that's that?  what does anybody make of that?

kat said she slept through the murders monday; or slept through abby's and woke up in time for andrew's?  or slept between the two?  i went around the office telling disinterested people that it was the anniversary of the borden murders.  (yawn)oh, his weird internet stuff.   

On the Morse/Edson thing, Edson said he did not put the hatchets and axes in a bag but carried them away by hand.

Thanks, Diana!  So, 6 days after the murders Lizzie handed over the black cotton stockings she wore the day of the murders, plenty of time to have washed them out completely!

Kat and I are trying to figure out when Lizzie's pail of menstrual cloths were taken to the Marshall's office exactly.  Personally, from the sounds of it, I think the pail was still there Thursday night.

There was so much evidence left lying around there in the cellar overnight, why not Lizzie's pail too? 

ok.  i wonder why though.  it would make sense to put them in something, wouldn't it? 

Yes, it would make a lot more sense to carry them in something.  They must have been awkward to handle.

On page 35 of the Witness statements Edson in his description of what he did On Aug. 5 says:  "...I carried the axes and hatchet openly in my hand."

Morse testified to the bag incident on the 26th in the Preliminary (page 261). His testimony is very explicit on the bag used. On that same day, on page 36 of the Witness statements Edson states what you have quoted, that what Morse said was false.  In fact that statement is by itself and appears solely to emphasize Morse's statement.

On page 267 of the Preliminary Knowlton questions Morse closely on the incident. 

Maybe they were just trying to discredit Morse's testimony.  Morse's memory to say the least is selective.



(Message last edited Aug-7th-03  7:48 AM.)

That was good you guys putting 2 and 2 together and good work on the dates and times, Har!
Maybe putting those items in a sack would compromise (yea right!) the detritus on the weapons...rubbing them together and rubbing off hairs and rust or blood specks.  Maybe Morse was implying this.  Because transfer of trace evidence could occur with those axes and hatchets bumping each other in a bag.
Either may be right.  One to obfuscate, the other to show those implements were not contaminated in a bag.

Those hatchets/axes were already "compromised".  The day of the murder, while the autopsies were going on, Charles Sawyer found the hatchet that Dolan and the others were interested in lying on the kitchen table with some milk cans and he rubbed off a bit of "a dry powder... apparently rust; it looked to me like dry rust." (Prelim, 475).  

thanks for posting that.  i had read it, and wanted to mention it, but i couldn't find it.

Yes they were compromised, in toto, by leaving them out overnight in the cellar.  But not necessarily bumping together and inter-mingling together is what I meant.  Transfer from one to another, confusing everything together.
Carrying them apart by hand would at least  Appear to be the correct way to transport them, at the time.

(Message last edited Aug-8th-03  9:15 AM.)

I used to think that Lizzie was ready to go to the funeral Saturday because she knew there was nothing (left) to be found on the premises.
Now I see by the Sourcebook, p.12, news article that it rained Friday.
We have figured out that Lizzie & Emma very possibly went with Jennings out Friday to probate and to give the reward info.
Lizzie was also up very early Friday, around 7:15 a.m. (W.S., 35).
It seems as if Lizzie's trip to the cellar alone Thursday night might really be when she cleaned up evidence she had hidden, or hid things, or recovered something she had hidden, in order to get rid of it Friday when (if) they left the house.
If it was raining that might be why there was no ballyhoo about the Borden girls being *out and about*.

you see why i fixated on that "scene" as witnessed by the officer outside that night?  there is something there.  i can't get it out of my visual eye how lizzie got alice out of her way and went back down.  obviously to do something she did not want to do in front of alice.  though it's still a total mystery, it is some kind of "reality" -- like the way she faked her dress.  about that dress again -- i choose to trust mrs. churchill.  apart from or in addition to that diamond pattern she saw that morning -- she says what she saw was all cotton goods. i think mrs. churchill knew that bengaline skirt was a "fake."

was reading knowlton again today.  i like this part.  i know some don't, but i like knowlton's arguments. 
__________________________________

How long it would have been before the police authorities would have discovered this thing but for the vigilant eye of Mrs. Churchill, no human being knows. No cry was made, no escape from the house was made, no thought of danger was suggested, but we have the calm and quiet demeanor of a woman contrasted with the agitation of a man in the same position within fifteen minutes afterwards when he was surrounded by those who could assure his safety. I do not care to allude to the visit to the cellar; I do not care to allude to her remarkable coolness of demeanor to the officers in the afternoon. She is certainly a remarkable woman: she is certainly a remarkable woman. Some people may share with me in that dread of going down below the stairs into the somewhat damp and gloomy recesses of the cellar after dark. I should not want to confess myself timid, but there have been times when I did not like to do it. And all the use I propose to make of that incident is to emphasize from it the almost stoical nerve of a woman, who, when her friend, not the daughter nor the stepdaughter of these murdered people, but her friend,---could not bear to go into the room where those clothes were, should have the nerve to go down there alone, alone, and calmly enter the room for some purpose that I do not (know) what connection it had with this case.

WHAT??? After the police searched the house from top to bottom? And were standing guard around the house all night? When would it be safer?

i'm not sure what your question means.  i'm talking about her behavior.  of course the policemen were around the house, obviously.  they weren't inside following her every move.  but yes, i suppose that was the safest time for lizzie to have done what she needed to do, yes.  again, i don't see your point, and you certainly don't address knowltons.

I'm reading Ann Rule's new book Heart Full of Lies about a woman who killed her husband.
She may have been setting the stage for getting rid of him somehow since her honeymoon.  She began to tell her friends he was a drunk and abusive.  She told these tales for years and once he was arrested because one member of a domestic dispute must be taken away according to the new laws.  He was humiliated.  He could not be a drunk because he was a pilot for Hawaiian Airlines and not missed days.  He was gone away from home quite a bit.
One of her girlfriends was a lawyer who sort of believed her but knew there was always another side to the story.
The thing is, the friend's husband was an M.D. and his view of the widow was quite different.  He said about her that.."Liysa had become a disruptive factor in the Clak's marriage with her surprise visits, her histrionic outbursts about Chris (the murdered husband), and her apparently total inability to understand that other people had lives and problems of their own."
(He was talking about a dropin to their home on the mainland from Hawaii.)
Then he says, after Liysa was arrested and awaiting trial at the time:  "If she gets off free she'll think she was justified.  She has no remorse."

--This reminded me of Lizzie.  All that time bad-mouthing Abby.  Acting like she's the only person on earth when giving the cold shoulder to Abby's relatives.
I wondered how, if Lizzie did it, HOW she lived with herself after.  This statement makes sense to me.  When Lizzie is found not guilty, she believes she was justified.  She would believe she was not guilty because the jury said so.  Men had ruled her life and 12 men said she wasn't guilty and so that was true to her.

I'll have to look for the new Ann Rule book this weekend, I love her
books.  IF Lizzie did it, yes the question how could she live with
herself has to be asked, but that is one of the reasons I have so many
doubts. She Did live with herself, she talked about "father" all the
time and led a pretty normal life.  I wish there was more written about her behavoir and psychological makeup. 

i aqree.  to my way of thinking (what with so much evidence against her) the fundamental problem is that we don't know her.  the fact is that she was very successful in secreting herself away.  i can't know her.  and it would seem that no one else ever really knew her either -- no one who talked anyway.  and that, i have to hand it to her, is an accomplishment.  but it's not something that happened later (this difficulty of understanding or "reading" her) -- the phenomenon is written all over her inquest.  she doesn't give, she doesn't reveal, she doesn't budge.