1. "Did a man come that morning?"
Posted by harry on Jul-13th-03 at 11:29 AM

Here's another one of those Lizzie inconsistent remarks:

Lizzie, to Fleet, page 4, Witness statements:

“...A man came here this morning about nine o’clock, I think he wanted to hire a store, talked English. I did not see him; heard father shut the door, and think the man went away.”


Lizzie to Mrs. Churchill, per Doherty and Harrington, second interview,  page 11, Witness statements:

“…..Has any man been to see your father this morning?
Not that I know of. ...”


Got to do some more digging on this one. So many Lizzie contradictions, so little time!  LOL

The thought that comes to my mind with this is that triple locked front door again.  Could it be possible if a man did come and Andrew showed him out that he completely locked up that front door again using all 3 locks?  And if so, why? 

i think it varies even more.  i can't find it at the moment, but i believe that lizzie (inquest) refers to the story about the man wanting the store as something that happened a few days before the murders.  i'm sorry i can't put my finger on it right now, but i tried to organize my papers, and now i can't find a damn thing.  later, unless someone can go right to it.  (it just so happens that i was thinking of this inconsistency myself the other day.)

In her inquest testimony she refers to a man being at the house within the last two weeks and then later changes that to within the week but nothing that I can find about a man being there the morning of the murders.

In her witness statement she differentiates between the man a few weeks ago and the man that morning:

"....“Have you any idea who could have done this?” “No, I do not know that my father had bad trouble with anyone. But about two weeks ago, a man called, and they had some talk about a shop; and father told him that he could not have it for that purpose. The man talked as though he was angry; did not know who he was, did not see him, could not tell all that he said. A man came here this morning about nine o’clock, I think he wanted to hire a store, talked English. I did not see him; heard father shut the door, and think the man went away.”

This may be another Lizzie thing that she only mentions once and then realizes the consequesnces of what she said. 

A strange thing however is that she spoke to Mrs. Churchill before she spoke to Fleet.  To Mrs Churchill, no one came, to Fleet, a man came. And then I can find no further mention of it by Lizzie but even more important by Fleet or any of the police.  Seems to me they would have jumped on that.

This does not refer to a man coming that Thursday I don't think, but we can preserve here all the *men who came there*...

Witness Statements, pg. 4 & 5, has Officer Harrington'e take on the *Man Came* story.  He starts his notes with:

"A. M. Although Lizzie did not see the man who called about the store, still she did not explain how she knew it was he who called the second time."
(P. H.)

And:

"Thursday Aug. 4, 1892.

Miss Lizzie. 'Saw father, when he returned from the P.O. He sat down to read the paper. I went out to the barn, remained twenty minutes; returned, and found him dead. Saw no one-in the yard when going to or returning from the barn. Heard no noise whatever while in the barn.' (To a question.) Not even The opening or closing of the screen door. 'Why not, you were but a short distance, and would hear the noise so made?' 'I was upstairs in the loft.' 'What motive?' 'I dont know.' 'Was it robbery?' 'I think not, for every thing appears all right, even to the watch in father’s pocket, and ring on his finger.' 'Have you any reason, no matter how slight, to suspect anybody?' 'N-n-no, I have not.' 'why hesitate'? 'Well, a few weeks ago father had angry words with a man about something'. 'What was it?' 'I did not know at the time, but they were both very angry at the time; and the stranger went away.' 'Did you see him at all?' 'No sir they were in another room; but from the tone of their voices, I knew things were not pleasant between them.' 'Did father say anything about him, or his visit?' 'No sir. About two weeks ago he called again. They had a very animated conversation, during which they got very angry again. I heard father say 'no sir, I will not let my store for any such business.' Just before they separated, I heard father say 'well, when you are in town again, come up, and I will let you know about it.'

(P. Harrington.)"



(Message last edited Jul-13th-03  11:52 PM.)

No, I don't think any of that is in reference to the man that Lizzie says came that morning.  In Harrington's notes Lizzie says the first call was "a few weeks ago" and the second call was "about two weeks ago".

Her statement to Fleet clearly says a man called that morning.  She does not tie it to the man that called previously.

Fleet's original notes on his interview of Lizzie are slightly different. in their supposedly original handwritten form, than what we have in our current document.  I have stressed before the blanks left because of something illegible, in that very important statement of Lizzie's that she saw Abby in the guest room before she, Lizzie came downstairs.  Someone filled in those blanks later and I don't know from where they got this info!
The statements Fleet took from Bridget & Morse also have these type of problems, though since each testified more than once it was easier for someone to fill in those blanks.

As to Lizzie, a partial transcription of the section you reference, here, from
Williams, Joyce G., J. Eric Smithburn, and Jeanne M. Peterson. Lizzie Borden: A Case Book of Family and Crime in the 1890s. Bloomington, IN: T.I.S. Publications Division, 1980, pg.  19:

..."Have you any idea who could have done this?  No I do not know that my father had had trouble with anyone, but about 2 weeks ago a man called and they had some talk about a shop and father told him that he could not have it for that purpose.  Man talked as though he was angry.  didn't know who he was did not see him, could not tell all that he said.  Man came here this morning about nine o'clock, I think he wanted to hire a store talked English did not see him, heard father shut the door and think the man went away."  .....

[I only emboldened the 2 parts, but of course there are puntuational differences as well.  Also, as I mentioned, other blanks filled in, in another section of each.]

Witness Statements, pg. 2:
..“Have you any idea who could have done this?” “No, I do not know that my father had bad trouble with anyone. But about two weeks ago, a man called, and they had some talk about a shop; and father told him that he could not have it for that purpose. The man talked as though he was angry; did not know who he was, did not see him, could not tell all that he said. A man came here this morning about nine o’clock, I think he wanted to hire a store, talked English. I did not see him; heard father shut the door, and think the man went away.”

I don't see any difference in the portion that I am talking about. I really don't care about the part about the man who came weeks ago.

My whole point is about the man who came that morning. 

Lizzie refers to a specific time, 9 o'clock that morning. 

If Fleet's notes are that bad then the heck with the whole thing. However, I don't necessarily believe that.

Author Masterton, 231+,  places Jonathen Clegg at the Borden house at 9 a.m. the morning of the murders.
He relies on Fleet's interview of Lizzie (which you can't find supported anywhere).
Masterton leads us to Clegg's testimony at the trial that he had seen Andrew about his store Tuesday at Andrew's house, then later Tuesday  he saw him at the store location.  That Clegg returned to Second Street Wednesday again to talk business and that Thursday morning *a man came who spoke English* (as in accent), and that was the man to whom Lizzie refers.
Clegg himself says he was awaiting sight of Andrew downtown Thursday morning, and was on the look-out for him.
Masterton finds all this urgent-seeming activity surrounding Clegg and Andrew Borden suspicious.
You might check Clegg at trial.
He also states , on pg. 105, that Fleet testified at the trial to Lizzie telling him *A man came* that morning.  I guess that can be checked too?
Do you disbelieve Fleet?

(Message last edited Jul-14th-03  12:53 AM.)

Masterton, BTW, will be lecturing next month as part of the FRHS programs.  I don't buy his theory, which supposes that Abby could pass like a ghost through those busy streets without seeing anyone she knew (or anyone who could identify her later) as she made her way to and from the Whitehead's.  

I don't buy Masterton's theory (which I call the "mince pie theory") either.  However, I found his book interesting in that he was able to provide fairly plausible alternate explanations for some of the mysterious elements of the case.  That might mean there are other alternate explanations and that what we assume to be facts may, in some cases, not be facts at all.  I suspect he seized upon Jonathan Clegg as the mysterious visitor of Thursday morning simply because Clegg was a tenant of Andrew's, came to the Borden house on occasion and was English.

Could you interpret "a man speaking English" as someone who did not have an accent? Virtual interpretation, not literal.

Trial
Fleet
Page 464

Q.  Anything else?
A. I then asked her if she had any idea who could have killed her father and mother. Then she said, "She is not my mother, sir; she is my stepmother; my mother died when I was a child."  I then asked her if there had been any one around this morning whom she would suspect of having done the killing of these people, and she said that she had not seen any one, but about nine o'clock that morning a man came to the door and was talking with her father.  I asked her what they were talking about, and she said she thought they were talking about a store, and he spoke like an Englishman.  I think about all the conversation I had with her at that time--- Oh, no. Miss Russell was in the room, and she says to Lizzie, "Tell him all; tell him what you was telling me."  And she looked at Miss Russell, and then she says, "About two weeks ago a man came to the house, to the front door, and had some talk with father, and talked as though he was angry."  And I asked her what he was talking about.  She said, "He was talking about a store, and father said to him, 'I cannot let you have the store for that purpose;’ "---The man seemed to be angry.  I then came down stairs.

465:
Q.  By the way, was any other officer with you during the whole or a part of this first interview with her?
A.  No, sir.
.........

But Fleet says Rev. Buck was there and Alice.  They could corroborate this couldn't they?  And if it was not what Lizzie said, by the time of the trial, maybe either one of these 2 civilians would have disabused the prosecution of the notion.
Is the point that you are making that it seems as if no one went actively searching for the 9 o'clock caller?
I think an author has asserted that the caller was Leontine Lincoln.
Then there's Masterton's Clegg.
But it seems to me Mrs. Churchill saw Andrew out side by the north steps about 9.  {Yes, here it is: Inquest, 126]

(Message last edited Jul-14th-03  7:10 PM.)

Trial
Fleet
470
[found the testimony someone may have used in preparing Fleet's notes for the Witness Statements- it fills in those Blanks to which I referred]:

Page 470

"I then asked her when was the last time that she saw her stepmother---when and where.  She said that the last time she saw her step-mother was about nine o'clock and she was then in the room where she was found dead and was making the bed.  That is to say, she was making the bed in the room where she was found dead, at 9 o'clock."

--But Lizzie went into her Inquest testimony saying she last saw Abby downstairs dusting in the dining room.
Why is Fleet always a bit *off* everyone elses recollections?

At the trial, Wilson is called to back up Fleet's later conversation with Lizzie.  He was sort of following Fleet around, I gather.
637:
Q.  I only want to call your attention Mr. Wilson, to anything that you saw up in Miss Lizzie Borden's room, any talk that you heard. In the first place, did you hear any talk between her and Mr. Fleet?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Did you hear the whole of it?
A.  I think I heard most of it.

Q.  Will you state as well as you remember now what was said between them?
A.  We went into the room to search it, Mr. Fleet, Mr. Minnehan and myself, and Mr. Fleet asked Miss Borden, Miss Lizzie, where her mother,---when she saw her mother last, and she said she saw her about nine o'clock in the guest chamber, making the bed, but that she had received a note and she thought she had gone out. And he asked---he asked her how long she was out in the barn and she said she was out there half an hour in the morning. He said, "What do you say now?"  She says, "From twenty minutes to half an hour."  He says, "We will call it twenty minutes, then."  She said, "No, sir, from twenty minutes to half an hour."

--I'm pretty sure this is Fleet's later conversation with Lizzie because Wilson says he arrived around 1 p.m. and when they went up to Lizzie's room, Bowen and Mrs. Holmes were there.
Fleet, earlier by himself saw Buck, Alice and Lizzie.
--So did Lizzie see Abby in the dining room dusting (Placing herself downstairs when Abby was killed upstairs) or did Lizzie last see Abby in the guest room! 

Obviously, placing Lizzie next to the death chamber would incriminate her, unlike being further away. Or do people hear what they want to hear?

Thanks for the exact quote on "speaking like an Englishman". And not a Scots, Irish, Welsh, etc.

Obviously, if it was important, the jury believed Lizzie was "not guilty", where ever she was at a certain point in time.

Lizzie places herself farther away from the death chamber by changing her story, Again.
Inquest, 58:
Q. Where was your father when you came down Thursday morning?
A. Sitting in the sitting room in his large chair, reading the Providence Journal.
Q. Where was your mother? Do you prefer me to call her Mrs. Borden?
A. I had as soon you called her mother. She was in the dining room with a feather duster dusting.

Compare this with what Fleet and Wison says Lizzie said earlier, the DAY of the crimes.

Lizzie supposedly first says she saw Abby last upstairs.
A week later at Inquest Lizzie is saying she was in the dining room.
At the time of the muders, we have sort of ascertained that the prevailing notion officially Thursday was that the two died at similar times.  It wasn't needful of Lizzie THURSDAY to come up with an explanation which put her further away from that room, you see?
The jury had 13 days to discuss all this and we have had 3 years.  It seems to me we are in a better position to reflect and also to examine The Big Picture, than those jurymen were.
Also note, no women voted on that jury!

Bridget at the Preliminary, pg. 10:
Q.  When you saw Mrs. Borden, where did you see her?
A.  In the dining room, dusting. She wanted to know if I had anything particular to do that day. I told her no. Did she want anything? Yes, she said she wanted the windows washed. I asked her how. She said on both sides, inside and outside; they were very dirty.
Q.  Did you have any usual time to wash the windows?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  How often did you use to wash them?
A.  Sometimes once a month, and probably twice a month.
Q.  Did you see Mrs. Borden after that?
A.  No Sir.
Q.  Where did she go to then?
A.  I could not tell you. I came out, and shut the dining room, and was in the kitchen.
Q.  You shut the dining room door and went in the kitchen?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  When did you next see her after that?
A.  Not until I saw her dead.
Q.  That was the last time you saw Mrs. Borden?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Was that before Lizzie came down?
A.  No. Lizzie was after getting through her breakfast then.
Q.  When Mrs. Borden spoke to you?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  When you saw Mrs. Borden, and had that talk with her, Lizzie was out in the kitchen eating her breakfast?
A.  She was through her breakfast. She was not in the kitchen.
Q.  Where was she?
A.  I do not know.
Q.  You had seen Lizzie before then?
A.  Yes Sir, before that, when she came down stairs.
Q.  Did Lizzie come down stairs before you went out in the yard to vomit?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  Where was Lizzie when you went out in the yard?
A.  Eating on the kitchen table.
Q.  When you came back was she still in the kitchen?
A.  I left her in the kitchen when I went out in the yard.
Q.  When you came back, you do not remember whether she was there or not?
A.  No Sir.

--From this it is hard to tell if Lizzie's claim to have last seen Abby in the D.R., was before or after Bridget saw her there.
Lizzie may have overheard this bit from Bridget and parroted the same to the authorities.  But then Lizzie goes into the big hullabaloo about their last words together and it gets more complex!
They both say Abby was going back up to the guest room to do something to the pillows, but the time factor doesn't mesh.  Lizzie claims the timing was right when Bridget went out to get her window washing implements which Bridget says was 9:30.  Bridget claims it was more like 9 a.m.
Even Morse claims Abby was dusting around downstairs and left the sitting room about 8:30, and he thought she went upstairs.  (Some of this Morse, Inquest, 101& 102)

(Message last edited Jul-15th-03  11:20 PM.)

Bridget, answering the question about whether she had any usual time to wash the windows with "sometimes once a month and probably twice a month" reminded me that Addie Churchill also testified about Bridget's window washing at the Inquest:

"A.  I don't think she washed windows but once a week, and Thursday was generally the day.
Q.  It was the habit to wash the windows once a week?
A.  She generally did."

Mrs. Churchill seemed to have the impression that Bridget was more industrious and regular in her window washing routine than the once or twice a month that Bridget owned up to.

Yes, this may become important info .  It should be kept in mind that Bridget did say she does the windows a couple of times a month.
I have read things lately that have been submitted and one has Bridget getting very mad at having to do a big job of window washing on a day which she was ill...and says right out that that's a rare job to require of her with no leniency on a hot summer day.

Diana- can you find a flaw in my last post?  I can't be sure about it.  It seems important yet it all just came to me...it seems too pat...I don't quite trust it.

I'm thinking ... My first question is about Lizzie seeing Abby in the guest room around 9 a.m.  Does Lizzie ever say this except through a third person? (Fleet or Wixon etc.) I know she says at one point at the inquest that she went upstairs to baste something -- but does she ever say she saw Abby upstairs?

Bridget's trial testimony time line for Thursday morning (all times approximate):
8:40 John Morse leaves -- Bridget sees Andrew go upstairs with a pitcher of water
8:45 Lizzie comes down has a very light breakfast --Bridget goes outside to be sick -- comes back -- sees no one in kitchen -- assumes Andrew has left -- B. washes dishes, takes them into dining room,  around
9:00 a.m. where Abby is dusting.  Abby tells Bridget to wash windows.  Bridget doesn't see Lizzie at this point.  Sees Lizzie later when she comes to screen door as Bridget goes outside with her window washing equipment -- no time given for this.

And as you pointed out -- at the inquest Lizzie says that when she came down Andrew was reading the paper in the sitting room and Abby was dusting the sitting room and dining room. 

The problem I'm having here is getting Andrew out of the house without Bridget seeing him.  If she was in the yard when he left through the side door wouldn't she have noticed?  Or if he left through that door when she was cleaning up the kitchen wouldn't she notice also? And why do I think that we know he left through the side door and not the front door?

Sorry, it's too late for me to keep thinking ...

 

Thats a very good point, Diana.  Do we know for a fact that Andrew left by that side door or did we just assume it because he was in that vicinity?  And if Andrew did leave by the front door, whats with all those locks being locked up again?  Hmmm. 

When you think about it -- no one actually testifies to seeing Andrew leave, right?  I mean Bridget thinks he's gone when she comes in from the yard.  The last time she saw him was when he went upstairs with the pitcher of water.  Morse has already left before Andrew goes.  Abby's really no help here either.  And Mrs. Churchill thinks it was around 9 a.m. when she saw Andrew "standing" at the side door steps on the side towards the barn.  But when queried she says he was just standing and not in "motion" at that point.  Also, he would have been at the wrong side of the steps to be coming toward the street.

Lizzie claims to have been in the dining room either ironing (or setting up her board to iron) when her father left.  She implies that he left by the side door when she answers:

Q. Did you let your father out?
A. No sir, he went out himself.
Q. Did you fasten the door after him?
A. No sir.
Q. Did Maggie?
A. I don't know. When she went up stairs she always locked the door, she had charge of the back door.

She implies that Andrew left by the back/side door -- but doesn't say that outright. 

But, if just the screen was being used at that point, and it had to be locked from the inside -- why would security-conscious Andrew not leave from the front door which he could lock himself as he exited?  Especially if 'Maggie' was not around to lock the side door after him.  (Lizzie also seems to be saying that Bridget may only have locked that door when she went upstairs.)  Doesn't it seem odd that Andrew, who kept his bedroom door locked, would leave home without making sure the exterior doors were secure?

I kinda think Andrew rarely used the front door.  I think, if nothing else, he liked to check the property grounds when coming or going. I don't mean a detailed search all around the outside of the house but a glance or two around the side yard and barn area.

He could probably tell when a board at the back fence had been moved an inch or two.

If Lizzie is in the sitting room, and Abby dusting the DR, and Bridget is in the barn fetching water, then no one would have seen Andy leave. Is there a problem here? We do know he was at the barber around 9:30 [or whatever they testified to].

I'm inclined to agree with you, Harry, as to the side door being the door of choice.  That's the door John uses when he arrives at the house on Wednesday. That's where Bridget lets herself in when she comes home on Wednesday night. But, remember -- Lizzie uses the front door when she comes home from Alice's on Wednesday night.

I guess I still wonder about Andrew hooking the screen door after John left -- and yet not worrying about it being left unlocked when he leaves for town.  And where was Bridget when he left?  I suppose she could have been being sick behind the house -- and perhaps he just stands there for a few moments (seen by Mrs. Churchill) and then thinks to himself "the girl will be going in the house shortly .. and she'll hook the screen when she goes in"....  

There is an odd little snippet in Bridget's trial testimony that pertains to the back door.  When she's asked if anyone else besides herself had a key to the back door she says she thinks Mrs. Borden had a key.  Later in her testimony, she's asked again: --

"There was a key to the side wooden door?
A.   Yes, sir.
Q.   And do you know whether Mrs. Borden or anybody else had a key to it besides yourself?
A.   I know Mrs. Borden had a key for it; Mrs. Borden got a key for it when I got  mine.
Q.   So there were two keys?
A.   Yes, sir.
Q.   Where did you keep yours when you came into the house?
A.   I hung it on a nail that was hanging down near the lamp in the   kitchen --- the   mantel-piece.
Q.   That was your rule, to hang it there?
A.   Yes, sir.
Q.   Do you know where the other one was kept?
A.   No, sir; I do not."

Does she really mean that Andrew did not have a key?  Surely not. 

ray:

we know andrew was in town, seen at the bank, during that 9:30 period.  he was not still at home.  at lizzie's inquest, she has it that father left the house at about 10.  in fact, he left the house closer to nine.

Lizzie may have used the front door Wednesday night to avoid Uncle John. If she came through the side door she would had a good chance of running into him.  Someone would also have had to come to unhook the screen door to let her in, although that may not have been hooked. If it was did someone unhook it on their way up stairs to bed so that Bridget could get in later?

Lizzie probably knew Bridget was going out and that Uncle John was staying the night.

Just speculation of course.

(Message last edited Jul-16th-03  10:43 PM.)

Morse used the front door Wednesday night upon his return from Swanzy.  Hence his hat in the front foyer.
Lizzie returned by way of the front door Wednesday night as well.
Lizzie implies that *a man came* probably to the front door Thursday morning.

Lizzie left Wedesday evening before Bridget and after Morse.
So I can't say she knew those other two's movements, or what they were up to....
I suppose, logically, when she came home at 9:20 p.m. and Morse was still there, at that point she would assume he was staying over?  I guess you are right about that.

I think your note about the hook is interesting.  Possibly it was Abby who unhooked the screen when Bridget did not return before she herself went to bed.
But I had pictured that since the interior door was closed and locked at night  ( I assume), the screen door would be left unhooked for Bridget when that door was closed for the night.

Andrew was seen at 9 outside by the the steps by Churchill.
He was not seen leaving.

Bridget says she saw Abby in the dining room dusting at 9 and that she finished her work in the kitchen before gathering her window washing paraphenalia about 9:30.

Lizzie eventually said she saw Abby last about 9 in the dining room.
She also says her father didn't leave until near 10 and *he wasn't gone long*.
(See everybodies posts)
There is not testimony that Andrew was shaved.  That was a news item.
We don't know when Andrew left and he wasn't noticed, in testimony until, as haulover says, 9:30 , at the Union Savings Bank, by Hart.

Since Bridget says she was outside barfing around 9, for 10 or 15 minutes and when she returned to the house Andrew was gone, it has always been assumed he left around 9, while no one noticed.
BUT, his first sighting was at 9:30, downtown, per testimony.

Just a*wrap-up* here of a collection of everyones input..

I'm speculating that Lizzie knew BEFORE she left that Bridget was going to be out that night and that Uncle John was staying over night.

Bridget could have told her anytime before that she was going out Wednesday night. 

Lord knows what Lizzie could hear from the upstairs landing of conversations being held downstairs.

Yes I understand.  You were clear about that.   But why, I guess is my question.  Unless it was pertinent to a scheme where Lizzie was involved, I don't think ordinarily Lizzie would care at all if Bridget was going to be out or where Morse was.
Is there a reason Lizzie would want to know this info Wednesday, and does it connect to the doors and the keys?

No reason at all. Just speculating.

This doesn't help much I guess, but it is the side door at #92, in 1997. 



(Message last edited Jul-17th-03  6:08 AM.)

In the trial, Mullaly mentions a man described by Lizzie!, on page 619:
Q.  From the cellar where did you go, Mr. Mullaly?
A.  I then went up on the first floor.

Q.  What did you do on the first floor, if anything?
A.  Stayed around there a while.

Q.  Go anywhere else?
A.  Then went up stairs to this room where Mrs. Borden lay; officer Hyde and myself searched it, and there I saw Miss Borden, and I had some conversation with her there.

Q.  Tell us what it was?
A.  I inquired of her whether she saw anybody around the premises, and she told me she did. She said she saw a man around there with dark clothes on. She said he was a man about the size of officer Hyde, or about as large as officer Hyde.

--Do you think this refers to that morning's *man* or does it sound like the *prowler man* or the man who came that week?
I just stumbled onto Mullaly while looking for Hyde.
It's funny Lizzie should see Hyde and say the *man* was similar in size to him.  Not very inventive.

Well, I guess that leaves out Dr. Handy's Wild Eyed Man, he was dressed in a light colored suit from what I remember.  Where did Lizzie supposedly see this man about the premises, thats what I want to know, there doesn't seem to be much info on this.  Which leads me to believe that the police must have thought she was lying, they don't delve further into this strange man.