Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden Topic Name: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)

1. "It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Sep-8th-03 at 12:19 PM

I was thinking this weekend that, for me, a "missing" piece of the puzzle is what may have ocurred between Lizzie and Abby to hasten Abby's death by sharp instrument, as opposed to the use of poison which Lizzie (in this scenario) was contemplating, and had perhaps even already tried (this is based on the other thread where we've been postulating that Lizzie's visit to Alice was not necesssarily an announcement of murder to take place the following day, but a setting of the stage for a coming event).

Now, then, consider the following imaginary exchange between Abby and Lizzie, out of Bridget's hearing:

Abby:  I'm going up to the guest room...if I can get up those stairs.

Lizzie:  Mrs. Borden?

Abby:  It's still my stomach.  I'm going to see Dr. Bowen again later, even if your father won't take what I say seriously.

AT THIS POINT, perhaps Abby says something like

Abby:  Maybe Dr. Bowen can ask around town to see if anyone's been...well, if anything's been going on!

AND LIZZIE THINKS (OR comes to this thought even if Abby hasn't said the last remark)

Lizzie (alarmed, thinking):  She's going to ask him to check with the pharamacists to see if anyone's tried to buy poison!

Could this sort of exchange have given Lizzie the impetus to silence Abby before Dr. Bowen could be asked to check with the town's dispensers of medications, given that Lizzie had (following this scenario) been out just the previous day on her ill-considered jaunt to Smith's?

A side question, but no less intriguing, might be: had Lizzie tried to poison her family earlier that week, or had the idea of poison been put into her head by Abby's visit to Bowen?  Certainly the aftermath, when Bowen came over to check on Andrew at Abby's urging, and was rudely sent back to chez Bowen, impressed Lizzie enough for her to have included it in her depressing and prescient chat with Alice, remember.

In any case, just because there was no witness to any such converstion, or even a completely different one, with any of them perhaps escalating into an argument and murder, doesn't mean it didn't happen.  We could hardly expect to hear Lizzie admit, "Well, I did have a violent spat with Mrs. Borden, but I didn't kill her," or even, "Yes, Father wouldn't let me alone about where that useless step-mother of mine was, but I finished THAT by walking out and heading to the barn!"

Your thoughts, please, keeping in mind the idea of Lizzie as the culprit?     

     


2. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by rays on Sep-8th-03 at 3:52 PM
In response to Message #1.

If you knew something about the olden days, you would know that "summer flu" was very common and a cause of death for infants. Poor or spoiled food. Practically unknown nowadays.
Disn't E Pearson's book make this point about the swordfish (?) that was reheated and reserved? Self-induced diseases abound today, like diabetics who eat too much sugar, etc.

(Message last edited Sep-9th-03  6:41 PM.)


3. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Sep-8th-03 at 4:05 PM
In response to Message #2.

Absolutely, it may have been nothing more than mild food poisoning, or "summer complaint/flu" that sent Abby over to see Seabury.  I'm wondering if this (it's that was the cause) gave Lizzie the idea to shop for poison.


4. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by harry on Sep-8th-03 at 5:40 PM
In response to Message #1.

Perhaps Lizzie had poisoned them earlier in the week with something far less potent and lethal. Seeing that what she was doing was not having the desired effect of killing them she decides to up the ante and try prussic acid.  Hence the visit to Smith's.

Not being able to get the prussic acid she still plans to continue the poisoning and she sets up Alice as an unwitting witness to the fact that she (Lizzie) was afraid her folks were being poisoned by someone.

She returns Wednesday night and overhears something in the conversation downstairs that convinces her that her planned slow poisoning won't do and she needs to act ASAP.  Perhaps they were discussing a will where Abby would inherit a greater portion.  Or even that plus the inclusion of Morse in the will thus further splitting the inheritance.  She would have to do something before any will of that type took place.

I don't think anything that happened had anything to do with the Whitehead land transaction in 1887.  Five years is too long a time to hold a grudge sufficient to kill.  Besides, they had just sold back the Ferry St. house to Andrew and were now relatively cash rich.

(Message last edited Sep-9th-03  5:23 PM.)


5. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by Kat on Sep-9th-03 at 1:49 AM
In response to Message #1.

If Bowen came over after his breakfast to see Andrew and saw Lizzie going up the stairs, that might be around 9 o'clock and if Lizzie was listening, then you all think right after that...well, somewhere between 10 a.m. and 11:30 a.m. Lizzie rushed out to Smith's drugstore to buy prussic acid?

I think if she did...and for some reason more & more, I think, if she killed the folks, she would have a key to the connecting door between her room and Andrew's.
I can't see her allowing herself to get stuck up there in the guest room killing Abby.  I am wondering if she would make sure she had access to all of the house, just in case.


6. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Sep-9th-03 at 10:50 AM
In response to Message #5.

Why "stuck?"  Bridget was to be out for a while and wouldn't come up the front, John was out until noon, as was Andrew, presumably.

On trhe other hand, what if Abby cried out and was heard by Bridget, who'd run in, house rules be damned?

Anyway, as you elaborated upon, Kat, Lizzie hears her Father pooh-poohing Abby's claims and sending Bowen home, and decides she either needs something stronger than whatever it is she's been using (or something that's an actual poison - not, let us say, fecal matter, for a horrifying example), or that, since she HADN'T been doing anything yet, this is a brilliant idea.  She'll get something quickly and play up the poison/enemies angle, starting that very day - while it's still on everyone's minds.     

(Message last edited Sep-9th-03  2:51 PM.)


7. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by haulover on Sep-9th-03 at 12:32 PM
In response to Message #5.

**If Bowen came over after his breakfast to see Andrew and saw Lizzie going up the stairs, that might be around 9 o'clock and if Lizzie was listening, then you all think right after that...well, somewhere between 10 a.m. and 11:30 a.m. Lizzie rushed out to Smith's drugstore to buy prussic acid? **

funny, i just suggested this in another thread.  it should have been easy for her to get out then.  i guess getting back in is another problem.


**I think if she did...and for some reason more & more, I think, if she killed the folks, she would have a key to the connecting door between her room and Andrew's.
I can't see her allowing herself to get stuck up there in the guest room killing Abby.  I am wondering if she would make sure she had access to all of the house, just in case. **

you know i haven't even thought of that.  that would explain how she did the robbery with bridget knowing about it.  however, surely andrew himself had a bolt or something against it before the murders?  i don't remember.




8. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by Doug on Sep-9th-03 at 4:56 PM
In response to Message #5.

I believe Eli Bence and his associates did see Lizzie in Smith's drugstore on Wednesday morning. However, a "loose end" to this is that when Phebe Bowen visited the Borden house on Wednesday evening Abby told Phebe that Lizzie had been home all day until she (Lizzie) went out to see Alice Russell that evening [from Phebe Bowen's preliminary hearing testimony]. I have not found a satisfactory way to reconcile these two conflicting testimonies though there are possibilities such as Lizzie left and later returned to the house unobserved that morning. Or, that Bence et al. were mistaken.

According to the preliminary hearing testimonies of both John Morse and Alice Russell there was a hook and eye type arrangement on Abby and Andrew's side of the connecting door to Lizzie's room. Of course, Lizzie could have accessed A. and A.'s bedroom from the back hall using the key from the sitting room mantelpiece and unhooked the hook and eye. John's and Alice's testimonies are not clear as to whether this connecting door was otherwise locked but it was apparently easy to open this door after the hook was lifted from the eye.

(Message last edited Sep-9th-03  5:15 PM.)


9. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by Kat on Sep-9th-03 at 7:06 PM
In response to Message #8.

On the robbery thread I just mentioned that Lizzie claims it takes 2 keys to get in at Andrew's door and then to get into her door from that room and that she had not these.
The hook and screw-in thing was on her side and I believe Morse was mistaken.


10. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by Doug on Sep-9th-03 at 9:32 PM
In response to Message #9.

Yes, Kat, that is possible. I have been looking at more testimony regarding the door between Lizzie's room and Abby and Andrew's room. In his trial testimony Assistant Marshal Fleet states that on Lizzie's side the door was hooked with "a common hook and staple" and also that the door "was locked on her side." Later Fleet testifies that on Abby's and Andrew's side the same door "was bolted and locked." Based on all of this it appears that this door was fastened on both sides using a hook and eye/staple, a bolt, and at least one "lock."


11. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by Kat on Sep-10th-03 at 1:27 AM
In response to Message #10.

You'd think she'd want the key to her own door (which connected).
The key to Abby & Andrew's bedroom door which opened onto the back stairs was kept on the sitting room mantle.
That key she did have access to, to make a copy.
That's a simple one out of 2 right there.

I recently found the key which unlocks all the interior doors in this house, except the new doors which necessarily had new locks on new doorknobs.
That key was *missing* since 1970 or so.  We used to get into people's doors using a single blade of scissors.


12. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by Kat on Sep-10th-03 at 1:45 AM
In response to Message #6.

Along the lines of your theory that Lizzie got an idea of poisoning after the elder Borden's became ill:

Did She Or Didn't She?
New Bedford Evening Standard
Aug.4, 1892 :6  :

"ARSENIC IN THE PEPPER
Used on the table at the Fatal Dinner at the Cable House
Haverhill, Aug.4.- A dispatch from Newburyport states that arsenic has been found in the pepper that was used on the table at the Cable House, Salisbury Beach, on the day of the fatal dinner there..."

Aug.5, '92 :6 :

"Arsenic in Tea
SALISBURY BEACH, Mass.
Aug. 5.-
Arsenic in tea is the generally accapted theory of the cause of the poisoning cases here."

-Seems like arsenical poisoning was in the papers at the time of the Borden  murders.


13. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by Tina-Kate on Sep-10th-03 at 7:18 AM
In response to Message #12.

That's amazing, Kat.  How funny if it simply was a case of summer flu, but Abby was getting paranoid ideas from the papers?  (Having sensed there was a danger around her).

Lizzie sees Abby all in a tizzy & uses it as a story to tell Alice that "someone" is out to get them.  Meanwhile, she's planning to off them in another way entirely.

I've never bought the Bence story.

How interesting that Massachusetts had murder by poisoning on its collective mind during that time (how easy to incorporate it into the Borden case when it may not have been relevant @ all).  I wonder when that "Arsenic in the Pepper" incident happened?

Hmmm --  what if Abby inadvertently inspired her own demise?  She gets all paranoid & Lizzie fantasizes, "I don't know if it's true, but I wish someone would poison them!"  & that starts her thinking about what life might be like without them around...& what perfect timing with Emma away, etc...

(Message last edited Sep-10th-03  7:36 AM.)


14. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by rays on Sep-10th-03 at 12:56 PM
In response to Message #12.

Wasn't there a case in Maine where a Church supper had poison in the food? Unsolved mystery? Earlier this year?


15. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by rays on Sep-10th-03 at 12:58 PM
In response to Message #13.

People in the past used "fly paper", which is impregnated w/ arsenic.
Raymond Chandler wrote a short story with that as a title. Since I haven't seen it for about 20+ years, it (curly fly paper) must be banned nowadays.

(Message last edited Sep-11th-03  12:37 PM.)


16. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by Kat on Sep-10th-03 at 6:54 PM
In response to Message #13.

That's pretty good Tina-Kate!
Aug. 4th will probably be the first reference to the poisonings, as the Did She book would have no reason to start coverage earlier.
I'll check later dates to see if there's anything more specific.

(Message last edited Sep-10th-03  6:56 PM.)


17. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by Kat on Sep-10th-03 at 8:00 PM
In response to Message #16.

Not much extra here:

Evening Standard, August 5, 1892, pg 8.

"THE LANDLORDS ADMISSION.
Insect Powder May Have Got Into The Food at the Cable House.

Newburyport, Aug. 4--Medical Examiner Snow of Newburyport, assisted by three local physicians exhumed the body of Daniel McCarthy of the Cable House this afternoon and removed the kidneys and liver which were sealed up in a jar to be forwarded to Prof. Hill at Harvard College.
Landlord Montgomery of the Cable House admits that he had a preparation of insect powder in the house, which may accidently have got into the food.  One of the employes (sic) at the Hotel states that such a preparation was kept in a pepper box in the house, and this may have got on the table by mistake."


18. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by Tina-Kate on Sep-10th-03 at 9:46 PM
In response to Message #17.

Thanks for that, Kat.

I suppose if the victim was already buried & exhumed by Aug 5, it's safe to assume the contraversy would have been in the papers well before Aug 4 & may well have been consumed by Abby (or Abby may have well been consumed by them).

I kind of like this idea.  After all, we've discussed before Abby prob didn't have a lot to occupy her time.

My own retired Mum reads papers constantly.  Now she has unlimited internet, she even reads Canadian ones on the web. 


19. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by Kat on Sep-11th-03 at 2:14 AM
In response to Message #18.

Yes I think it's interesting as well and fits somewhat Bob G.'s parameters of an acceptable reason for the attempt to buy poison, by Lizzie.
But whereas we don't quite believe the Bence incident, do you think it's a possibility that Lizzie used insect powder or soaked fly-papers, whatever, in any earlier attempt?
It doesn't have to be that she tried something before but some speculate that she possibly did.


20. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by Tina-Kate on Sep-11th-03 at 8:30 AM
In response to Message #19.

Oh sure, just about anything is possible when we know so little of the facts.

I also rather wonder if Lizzie (who also had lots of time for leisurely reading) could have been inspired by a mysterious poisoning incident somewhere else in Mass.

I can also see Lizzie getting frustrated by her poisoning plans not working & deciding to pick up a hatchet & get it over with once & for all.

What bothers me the most about the poisoning possibility is how Bridget never gets sick until the AM of Aug 4.  We have Abby saying Lizzie was sick (but Lizzie could have faked sick).  Also, JVM is never sick, even tho they appear to have been eating that same food for days.

It seems to me Lizzie would have had to poison the Bordens individually, rather than say tossing something in with the roasted mutton.  How does she do this without getting caught?  Supposedly she doesn't eat with them (strange for her to be mulling around the kitchen while the meal is being prepared).  How does she get past Bridget?  She would have to be poisoning something only the elder Bordens would be consuming...I don't really see her taking the chance of killing Bridget as well.  I do, however, entertain the idea of Bridget getting a dose of poison to try to disable her on the murder AM in an effort to keep her out of the way.

Overall, the most fascinating thing your post inspired is revealing the fact that there was a Massachusetts poisoning incident going on @ the time.  Did it inspire Lizzie?  Did it make Abby paranoid when she got sick?  Did it add yet another dimension to the Borden case when it may not have had any relevance at all?

I keep thinking how no poison was found in the Borden's stomachs (altho we can't be sure due to the lack of forensic technology in 1892/93).  Wouldn't it be funny if it turned out no one was ever poisoned, but it happened to be a coincidence that a summer flu was going around, & Massachusetts was having a bit of "poisoning hysteria" @ the time due to that other incident...& this ended up bringing poison into the equation of the Borden case simply because it was so prominent in people's minds?


21. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by rays on Sep-11th-03 at 12:38 PM
In response to Message #17.

Arsenic (white powder) can be mistaken for other things. I read where it has to be colored blue, since no food is that color. (Yes, I know about blueberies.) Is arsenic tasteless too?


22. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by rays on Sep-11th-03 at 12:42 PM
In response to Message #20.

But arsenic can be detected by chemical tests invented in the late 18th century. Previously such deaths were classified as "witchcraft", they said. I read one book about life in NY city circa 1916. Summer flue, and other diseases, were very common in those times. That was another reason to flee the city to the country or the seaside in summer.


23. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by Kat on Sep-12th-03 at 2:00 AM
In response to Message #20.

That's an excellent post.

There were 2 poisoning cases in the news prior to or around Aug. 4th.  One at Salisbury Beach and the other at Haverhill.
That's a lot of inspiration for someone, anyone, looking for a method of killing.

Lizzie says she is down to meals Tuesday:
A. Well, I ate with them all day Tuesday, that is, what little we ate we sat down to the table; and I think I sat down to the table with them Wednesday night, but I am not sure.
Q. All day Tuesday?
A. I was down at the table.
Q. I understand you to say you did not come down to breakfast?
A. That was Wednesday morning.
Q. I understood you to say that you did not come down to breakfast?
A. I came down, but I did not eat breakfast with them. I did not eat any breakfast. Frequently I would go into the dining room and sit down to the table with them and not eat any breakfast.

--That seems suspicious for someone who brags that she doesn't eat with the elder Borden's if she can help it.
So Lizzie has the opportunity to put something in the food of the Borden's while at table.
Since Bridget does not sit down with them, nor likes the same things, it might be easy to poison just 2 people's particular food.  It would have to be the last meal of the day though, wouldn't it, as I think that would go into effect rather soon?


24. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by Tina-Kate on Sep-12th-03 at 8:59 AM
In response to Message #23.

No TV, no radio, no www.com.  Lizzie's a voracious reader & it was a poisonous summer in New England.  That's such a real find, Kat!

Any Lizzie testimony can also mean just about anything.  She might change one meal for another, one day for another.  Lizzie was doing things out of character that week.  Getting up in the mornings before she usually did.  But wouldn't you think the Bordens would sense she was up to something?

I wonder just how much she did eat with Andrew & Abby?  If she never ate with them, then suddenly she starts to go down to meals, wouldn't that be rather obvious when suddenly they're getting sick?  We know Abby suspected she was being poisoned & Abby *thought* Lizzie was also sick.  I wonder if Bridget fell under suspicion?  Abby didn't seem to have any particular enemy in mind when she confided in Bowen. 


25. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by Kat on Sep-13th-03 at 1:09 AM
In response to Message #24.

My impression is that Abby really did think it was summer complaint.  She thought it was the baker's bread or some kind of cake(?)  Anyway, it was store-bought stuff she was leary of.
She feeds Morse what they've been eating all week, supposedly, on Wednesday afternoon and Thursday morning.  I don't think she would do that if she thought the home-made food in the house was poisoned.
I guess then she was not suspicious of Lizzie's changed ways that week.
Lizzie could be on best behaviour that week, after her return from New Bedford.
Remember these murders happened 16 days after her Birthday...I wonder if that has significance...


26. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by rays on Sep-13th-03 at 11:25 AM
In response to Message #24.

BECAUSE there was no TV or radio, you had to read newspapers.
Don't forget there was a recession going on. Are there more murders and crime then, or now? Read your local newspaper.
...
Don't overlook the fact that Bridget prepared and served the meals, and could be the prime suspect. "Disgruntled employee" theory.

(Message last edited Sep-13th-03  11:28 AM.)


27. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by rays on Sep-13th-03 at 11:27 AM
In response to Message #25.

"16 days after her Birthday"  sounds like a false clue.
What significance could it have? Maybe just after her monthly could be more significant, but the younger women here could answer.


28. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by Kat on Sep-14th-03 at 12:14 AM
In response to Message #27.

What I think is significant is that these murders happened, out of all the year, near Lizzie's birthday.  There were 349 other days this could haver happened in a years time. (365- those16 days).

Also it is significant that Andrew bought back the Ferry Street property on Friday, July 15th, and the girls left town Thursday the 21st, 2 days After Lizzie's birthday.  Look at all these occurrances during these 20 days.  (All these things combined were implied in my post. I don't think you understood the whole picture.)
(BTW:  I have the same cycles as the *younger girls here*, but what is worse than PMS is menopause.  The thing is that the murders occurred after Lizzie's period, probably at the best time of her cycle.)


29. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by kimberly on Sep-14th-03 at 1:34 AM
In response to Message #28.

Being a younger girl I'd say that she should have been feeling
pretty good if she had just finished her monthlies the day before
the murders. Her hormones would have started to build again and
she would have been feeling better & better until it started all
over again. But that should have been a good day. Her skin would
have probably been starting to clear up and everything. Even if
she had PMS the week before & then had a bad "rag week" the ending
of that would have settled her mood swings down as she started a new
month. Last day & the day after is a very happy time. It is. 

I started to change the subject line to "Midol, take me away" and
then remembered a little heath potion booklet I have from the
1890's, it is a cure-all & is for female problems (no, not men)
and was probably made of opium or something like that. If Lizzie
had cramps she would have probably ordered some of the
cures they sold in the back of Harper's & who knows -- she
could have been high as a kite for days or weeks. I think it was
probably easier to be a drug addict then rather than now. I mean,
Dr. Bowen was giving her morpine & she hadn't even been injured
in the killings.


30. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by rays on Sep-14th-03 at 4:12 PM
In response to Message #29.

Is this the famous "Lydia Pinkham's" medicine? Praised by the WCTU, even thought it had maybe 10% alcohol in it?
But if it works, it must be good.

Thank you for your testimony on this subject.


31. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by kimberly on Sep-14th-03 at 9:05 PM
In response to Message #30.

I can't remember the name of it, off the top of my head.


32. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by Kat on Sep-15th-03 at 2:24 AM
In response to Message #31.

I think I just saw some "Lydia Pinkham's" at my local Walgreens.


33. " It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)-Lydia's Cures"
Posted by Kat on Feb-8th-04 at 3:12 PM
In response to Message #32.

I did see Lydia Pinkham's product at Walgreens' today.
It was a yellow box in the vitamim and natural remedy section.
It was a combination vitamin pill specifically for menstruation and menopause (?)
The company originates in Edison, New Jersey, ph.# 1-800-331-0221,
Numark Lab.


34. "Re:  It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)-Lydia's Cures"
Posted by Kat on Feb-8th-04 at 7:52 PM
In response to Message #33.

http://www.gti.net/mocolib1/kid/food1.html
Gawd a food timeline- while looking for Lydia.


http://libraries.mit.edu/archives/exhibits/esr/esr-rumford.html
The Rumford Kitchen
Exhibit at
World's Columbian Exposition, Chicago, 1893

Excerpts from Report of the Massachusetts Board of World's Fair Managers
Boston, 1894



Table Manners etc.
http://www.history.rochester.edu/ehp-book/yefhas/chap13.htm

The noon meal was  lower class it seems.

"WHAT HOUR TO DINE.

The hour of dining varies with the people, the middle and working classes adopting the midday hour for the most substantial and elaborate meals of the day. Others dine later in the day. Whether this is as healthy an hour as the earlier one, we are not prepared to discuss; but if the hour for retiring is about eleven P.M., we see no objection to the seven o'clock dinner."

(Message last edited Feb-8th-04  7:55 PM.)


35. "Lydia's Cures"
Posted by Kat on Feb-8th-04 at 8:02 PM
In response to Message #33.

If this has posted before- excuse me please...


36. "-Lydia's Cures"
Posted by Kat on Feb-8th-04 at 8:04 PM
In response to Message #33.

This is very similar to the box I saw today.  The legend says this is from the 50's and 60's.


37. "Re: -Lydia's Cures"
Posted by Kat on Feb-8th-04 at 8:06 PM
In response to Message #36.




38. "Re: -Lydia's Cures"
Posted by Kat on Feb-8th-04 at 8:08 PM
In response to Message #37.

http://www.medichest.com/lydiapinkhamherbalta.html


39. "Re: -Lydia's Cures"
Posted by Kat on Feb-8th-04 at 10:50 PM
In response to Message #38.

I guess i got carried away?


40. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by lydiapinkham on Feb-8th-04 at 11:04 PM
In response to Message #1.

I agree with Fritz about the prussic acid being meant for herself, not her victims. (Prussic acid is like cyanide: quick and painless as poisons go.)  I think the poisoning was simple food poisoning, just as Dr. Bowen did; however, I can imagine it having an indirect bearing on later events if Abby DID investigate.

--Lyddie


41. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by lydiapinkham on Feb-8th-04 at 11:07 PM
In response to Message #4.

I agree, Harry, that something new must have happened and quite recently.  The challenge is determining what!

--Lyddie


42. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by lydiapinkham on Feb-8th-04 at 11:16 PM
In response to Message #7.

I think the key was always left out in plain sight on the mantle, wasn't it?  Just to let Lizzie know that if anything else went missing from their room, he'd know it was an inside job.  But if she needed to get in for some other reason, couldn't she just use the key? Isn't the second key referred to the one between the two bedrooms?  Or do I have I been misreading all this time.  These people's phrasing can madden a reader.  Just imagine what it did to the police!  (Come to think of it, half of the police questions are equally confusing.  Was everyone so rattled they couldn't talk a straight line?)

--Lyddie


43. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by lydiapinkham on Feb-8th-04 at 11:44 PM
In response to Message #13.

Every once in a while in this region (NH), they have found dangerous arsenic levels in well water:  it can seep in naturally through soil which has heavy concentrations of it.  She could have easily read about that and thought how easy it might be to be poisoned by someone who would blame it on city water! 

It was the poison of choice, undoubtedly, because it was everywhere: it saturated flypapers and was even used as a bleaching agent for women's skin, to give it that coveted porcelain tint.  (That was Adelaide Bartlett's defence, but the jury didn't buy it.)  Some also became adicted to the stuff by taking small doses for a sense of euphoria and power.  They were referred to as arsenic eaters and would, if allowed to, destroy their minds and constitutions by its use.  One of these men was James Maybrick, whose wife, Florrie, served time for his eventual death.  He is also the purported writer of the controversial Ripper Diary.  That story promises to continue for some time: the "discoverer" of the diary made a confession to forgery, but seems incapable of having done such a good job.  He is mad as a hatter and will do anything to get attention from the press--including calling pointless press conferences, confessing, retracting confessions, stalking his ex wife, and pressing frivolous lawsuits.  The physical evidence is intriguing:  some experts in inks, papers, graphology, etc. dismissed it in the beginning, but were later shown to be wrong on some crucial points. Not disproven, not proven. There are references to evidence never revealed until the past 25 years, yet has been dated back at least as far as 1940, so it certainly gives us something to chew on. I like the irony of Maybrick being the Ripper:  buried and mourned as a victim, while his wife does time.  (After her release, she came to New Hampshire.  They all do.)

Sorry to get off topic there, but I have seen references to Cornwell, who I think threw all her money into a hunch and is trying to get it back.  I just don't buy it.  Half his crowd did pictures of Lizzie Siddal looking moribund; what makes him so special?

--Lyddie


44. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by lydiapinkham on Feb-8th-04 at 11:48 PM
In response to Message #13.

an interesting catalyst, Tina Kate!  Then use a different weapon, so Alice doesn't connect her to the crime.  Axes are simply so unladylike!

--Lyddie


45. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by lydiapinkham on Feb-8th-04 at 11:51 PM
In response to Message #14.

Yes.  I think they know who did it, but I don't think they've revealed the name.  (Building a case?)

Curly flypaper is still made, but I think it's just sticky, not lethal.


46. "Re: -Lydia's Cures"
Posted by lydiapinkham on Feb-9th-04 at 12:01 AM
In response to Message #39.

Not at all!  I, for one, find it great fun.  Note the insistence upon looooong term use.  Also the snake oil claims for cures of all kinds.  Did you notice, though, that she does mention uterine tumors (congestion?) and spinal complaints.  I wonder if Sarah and/or Abby availed themselves of the cure.  The alcohol level, though about 18%, is lower than most at the time, so I think that's why Lydia was spared Carrie Nation's axe.  The menopause is the one complaint it might have helped with the black cohosh.  The rest?  I don't know my herbs that well; at least I doubt it did harm and may have done wonders as a placebo.

--Lyddie


47. "Re:  It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)-Lydia's Cures"
Posted by lydiapinkham on Feb-9th-04 at 12:03 AM
In response to Message #34.

Wow, Kat, I've just been reading up on the exposition too.  What a fascinating, marvelous thing it must have been.  My husband's hooked too.  The cracker jack alone landed him!

--Lyddie


48. "Re: It must be today...why?  (Lizzie as the culprit)"
Posted by lydiapinkham on Feb-9th-04 at 12:11 AM
In response to Message #28.

Do you suppose the purchase back of Ferry St. was all she got for her birthday?  That might have ticked her off pre or post menstrual.

--Lyddie