1. "New book on Lizzie"
Posted by harry on Sep-21st-03 at 1:00 AM

The URL below is for an article which appeared in this morning's (Sept. 20th) Fall River Herald News.  It covers a new book "The Dark Side of Lizzie Borden" by Barbara Silveria. It apparently will only be for sale at the FR Historical Society.  No price is mentioned.

http://www.heraldnews.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=10195088&BRD=1710&PAG=461&dept_id=99784&rfi=6

The price on this book is $8.95 + tax. I picked up a copy yesterday.  Mark

Thank you Harry, our intrepid Herald News Reporter.

Very interesting she took the medical/psychological angle.

Is it possible to order from FRHS bookshop via mail?  Has anyone tried this?

Mark, maybe you can give us a book review?

Thanks, Harry!  A new book on Lizzie, how exciting!  Yes, Mark, please, I'd like to hear if you think its a worthwile book to add to my Borden library. 

This coming week, hopefully I'll be getting an updated list of FRHS items for sale pertaining to the Borden case.
It is in revision.
I'll type it in the Second Hand Shop topic area, including ordering information, just in time for your early Christmas shopping ideas!

Well I've read a few chapters already & I must say that so far, it's NOT a "Must Have". Chapter 1 lays out the basic facts of the deed with more than a few discrepiences. Chapter 2 gets to the point and basically gives the authors opinion that our own Miss Lizzie had a split personality due to a possible incestous relationship with her father. According to her (the author) AJB showered his youngest with fancy clothes, a trip to Europe, & wore her diamond ring (her word-diamond-not mine) on his little finger until his death to keep "Their little secret" theirs & theirs alone. It goes on to list various acts that may or may not have been committed by the "Dark Lizzie" such as the chopping off of a pesky cat's head (sorry KAT, I tried to word it as least painful as possible)& telling her father that she wished he would come home a corpse one day, maybe one day soon, you will! She also list the doings of the Good Lizzie such as telling MS. Russell that she had a feeling that she couldn't shake off.
At $8.95 for the book I guess that it's not that bad to get this latest take on the case. I've already listed my copy on EBay & I haven't finished it yet if that tells you anything. The funny thing is, it's up to $13.50 already!!!

This must be what Anna was referring to when I saw her in August!  Why does the interview make it seem as though we've all never considered the incest angle before? 

(Message last edited Sep-22nd-03  4:45 PM.)

Yikes.  Cringe.  Thanks Mark, I think I'll pass on this one.

What a waste not to do something of quality.  I mean, if yr going to embellish, OK...but at least get the known facts right. 

Thanks, Mark.  Oh well, as you said, for that price its not too bad, but, wish that the facts were listed correctly.  Always helpful for people who may be just starting out reading about the Bordens. 

Wow, that was fast!  Thanks.
There was actually a source for the bit about Lizzie saying to her father that she wished he would come home a corpse.  She was acting up at home, I have read. 
I'd really have to look to find it- but I found that provocative.

Which other author has the incest angle?
I know there are 2 or 3 articles in the Proceedings book on that possibility, but that is last century thinking!

Ha!  I was, indeed, thinking of PROCEEDINGS, and also the LIZZIE BORDEN musical...and, come to think of it, the last staging of the LIZZIE opera, which gave Andrew and Lizzie a curious moment into which much could be read.  I think the issue's been broached in several of the documentaries, too.

In any case, hardly an explosive new theory, even if it's true!

Speaking of those "known facts:" I always get nervous when I read an article that starts "These are the known facts upon which everyone agrees - Andrew Borden was napping on the sitting room sofa when he was struck..."

I don't buy the nap as a absolute fact coming, as it did, from Lizzie's lips, in odd and trying circumstances.   


(Message last edited Sep-23rd-03  12:33 PM.)

No such subject has ever been printed prior to the 1980s. Censorship, or because it wasn't true? What "facts" support this supposition? I tend not to believe this, simply because a landowner and rent collector like Andy would have a lot of other choices. Could this rumor have developed from the H Trickey stories about Lizzie's condition? Could it have been Uncle John who felt for his niece?

The problem with this scandalous gossip: no evidence from that time.

But if the "loathsome miser" (AR Brown's words) was suspected of doing his own daughter, that may explain why so many felt sympathy for Lizzie (at the time of the trial). V Lincoln's "in group" gossip never mentioned this, and in the 1960s could have certainly done this, like that fiction about Lizzie & Bridget (Evan Hunter?).

So what about Bertha Manchester?
...
Since the Boston Globe carried the rumor of Lizzie's involvement with Uncle John, they certainly could have printed any rumor of incest (which is what JVM was said to have done in this case!).

(Message last edited Sep-23rd-03  8:09 PM.)

This is another area of conjecture as regards the relationship btween Andrew and Lizzie so, no, it'll never be proven.  There wasn't such a widespread willingness to explore the issue of incest until the last twenty years or so, but the fact of it goes back for centuries, alas.  

Hi folks, I finished the book today & I must say that the closer I got to the end, the more I wanted to know about this "Dark Side" of Miss Lizzie. Well, the book came to an end & there wasn't anything in there that I haven't read elsewere!!!  I should go back to the Fall River Historical Soc. and get my $9.00 back.
Chapters 3&4 just give a condensed version of the trial with almost complete Opening statments! This is not what I want to read. I've read all this before. I want something new. She could have at least made something up. If I had to guesstimate how many pages total were the authors theroy &  NOT something I've read before I would have to say 5 tops out of 157.
I only wish that the author would have researched her theroy a little more, then had FACTS to back her up. Old rumors & hersay do not a conviction make.  Mark

Thanks Mark for the review. I think I'll save my dollars!

One of these days THE book on the Borden case will be written. Rebello is great for facts and anecdotes but it's not a true book in the classical fashion. More like an encyclopedia.

IMO, the last good book was Radin's. Except he had no reason to make you believe Bridget was the culprit. 

Another poster has been after me to read Masterton. Will have to do that next.

THE LAST BEST BOOK ON THIS CASE ... was Arnold R Brown's "final chapter". It solved the case by its parallax view that explained it all. Don't just take my word; read them all in historical order.

I"m talking non-fiction books Rays. His "book" was FICTION.  Makes a great doorstop though.

I probably have read 10 times as much as you ever thought about reading about this case and need no advice from you.  Try reading somethings yourself and STOP the constant bitching.  It's TIRESOME.

(Message last edited Sep-23rd-03  8:42 PM.)

I'm sorry Ray, but it really does sound like you're getting the royalties.

I don't understand this statement.
How do you know nothing was published on incest prior to the 1980's? 
Anyway you bring up Morse and Lizzie, and this was published in the papers in 1892-93.  There was no way what was written could have been interpreted any other way.  It was pretty obvious what they meant.

(Message last edited Sep-24th-03  12:12 AM.)

Thanks for the review!
5 pages of personal theory?
We have a thousand pages of theory here.
I'm surprised the author didn't use more resources.
(personally, Opening & Closing Statements are not my thing at all..they're very frustrating)

The incest theory is just as possible as Andrew having an illegitimate son.

There is absolutely no proof of the latter that I know of. 

***She could have at least made something up.***

HA!  yeah, i see what you mean.  it sounds like any one of us could have done better.  why was the time wasted on it and why was it published?

she could have at least done an "a la brown" rendition. you know, like that secret lover of lizzie's that only "a select few really knew about."  but in the trial records, if you look "here" and "here" -- then it's all crystal clear.

but seriously, i guess maybe what she did was considered a good "summary" for the novice or something.

I wonder what the criteria is to get something sold at the FRHS?

Thats a good question, does it just have to have something to do with Fall River in general?  Be nonfiction? 

I know of no library that lists A R Brown's book as "fiction". Not even V Lincoln's tale of "in group gossip". Could you list about 100 libraries across the country that do this? Or just TEN in your state or county. Bet you can't!!!

I am sorry if you find this tiresome. Maybe you can write an article in a national magazine, like 'Vanity Fair', and explain why AR Brown is plainly wrong. And why you alone know this.

Book publishing is sort of like show-business. Anything new can sell and make money. Do not expect an academic history to be published; it won't make money. The same reason films of historical events always take short cuts and simplifications.

You know Ann Rule?
Her books are true crime.
I constantly find her one work of fiction that I know of,  Possession, in with the true crime.  I take it to the desk and show them the spine.  FICTION.
They reply the computer gave it it's tag and that's where it stays and there's nothing they can do about it.

AR Brown tells of the difficulties in researching William S Borden. He notes the lack of public records for a birth certificat, and deduces illegitimacy (the rule in Mass, then or now?).

Could the father be someone other than Andrew J Borden? But why did this miser give that Liberty Street farm to WSB? Consider the known facts for AR Brown's book.

Look in the first few pages of any book for the library code. I believe this is what they use. Blaming workers for management decisions is a no-win game.
...
No, I don't know Ann Rule. I may someday read her book titled "stranger" because she once did work w/ Ted Bundy, and knew him. (I never knew anybody famous or infamous. And I'm happy that way.)

(Message last edited Sep-26th-03  11:42 AM.)

Oh I ask for the managers.  I don't blame the workers.
They blame the coding.  It was just a way to educate them but they didn't care.
I used to reshelve books in the bookstores I visited when I found one somewhere it didn't belong.  The *workers* didn't mind.  I knew what I was doing.

--A member here wrote to Ann Rule (e-mail) and she answered.  I have her addy.  I heard she was very approachable.

The book on Bundy is called "The Stranger Beside Me" I think.

(Message last edited Sep-26th-03  1:04 PM.)

Since I didn't read it, I ask: what made him go "off the rails"? I think there was no problem until he was about 20 years old?

***Oh I ask for the managers.  I don't blame the workers.
They blame the coding.  It was just a way to educate them but they didn't care.
I used to reshelve books in the bookstores I visited when I found one somewhere it didn't belong.  The *workers* didn't mind.  I knew what I was doing.***

i laughed out loud at this.  i love this.  this sounds so much like you too.  this makes me think of my experience with "video" stores.  for the most part, the employees don't know anything about films.

then i found an INTELLIGENT store.  they don't alphabetize anything.  everything is arranged according to the way a knowledgeable person would think and search.  for example, the "foreign film" section is arranged by director, and within that, by the chronology of the director at work.  so when you find the "bergman" section, you're looking at the career behind it.  when a film is associated primarily with an actor, you find them organized thus.  if a film has to go in a genre, such as horror, you'll find every notable director holding court.  for example, "italian horror" is a sub-genre, and of course there you see bava and argento highlighted.  i was impressed that the whole layout was obviously done by a knowledgeable person.  to further impress me was the fact that all the employees were knowledgeable film buffs.  i would say this is rare.  it's called MOVIES WORTH SEEING here in atlanta.  i haven't found any place to equal it anywhere in the country.

anyway, i laughed when i understood your point.  it's hard to resist "fixing it", isn't it?

i feel sorry for some of these book stores, kat.  i feel like calling them:  "watch out for this white-haired lady with knowing eyes and articulate tongue.  she knows your stuff."

haha.  i like that.

Your place sounds like Shangri-la.
Are you sure it isn't a a mirage at the horizon?

I used to make piles of books, misplaced, and give them to the manager when I left.
Then they got to know me and I shelved myself.
I always worried that the patron who wanted that book wouldn't be able to find it.

That is just the right age.  Plus he had *precipitating stressors* as John Douglas might call it.
Bundy had no gumption or ambition.  He talked big but produced very little.  He slid by on charm.
He was a sadistic sociopath.
I believe the First abduction/murder was supposedly precipitated by his high-class fiance breaking up with him.  He then chose victims similar to her in appearance and social standing or at least on the way up, like co-eds.
That's the original accepted theory but delving deeper he was more complex than that and really had always been experimenting..starting out by peeping.
He did claim acholol and pornography were catalysts.
He just always went farther, experimenting.
Then he dumped his used articles - they weren't people to him.

But wasn't he a law student? Doesn't that give an insight into police practices? He was not a dim-witted unemployed drug abuser. His very brilliance may have kept him going for so long.

That story about "blaming pornography" was his last attempt to avoid execution, as far as I know. How much pornograpy was there in his small town 30 years ago? Or even today?

And how many drinkers become serial murderers? Can anyone who has been drinking really be so clever?

Are you asking me?
You can look it up.

(BTW:  I watched LIVE Bundy's interview the night before his execution in Florida.  He was talking about pornography then.  He blamed it.  And alcohol.  He never blamed himself.  It was pitiful and mesmerizing.  He was crying.   He wasn't  getting a stay.  He knew that.
His bid for a stay was earlier & his strategy was to hedge around that he might be able to clear up more murders and help pinpoint the places where there might be dumped bodies.  He wanted to make himself available to other jurisdictions.  The State said NO.)

(Message last edited Sep-28th-03  5:21 AM.)

I'm not sure which came first, the drinking or the crime.
But I can think of quite a few serial killers who drank.  Bundy said it stimulated him to take risks that he otherwise might not have, as well as lowering his inhibitions.
I think it got to the point with him that he drank in order to kill.

Neilson drank, so did Dahmer.  I think Gacy drank a bit too.  (I'm not sure he drank a lot while committing his crimes but he did get boys drunk after luring them to his house.  I think he drank beer with them a bit to loosen them up).

Maybe these killers had a high tolerance.

Ian Brady drank on his and Myra's treks to the moors.
He also killed their last victim wirth a hatchet!

http://ss910.logika.net/cgi-bin/ss_query?keys=alcohol&submit=GO&ct=10&sitenbr=61032486&searchButton.x=11&searchButton.y=8

Court T.V.'s Crime Library
Searched "Alcohol".
Take your pick.
"Drugs are often involved, especially alcohol..."

I found this info long after I wrote my previous post.
Hope it's helpful to you in understanding killers.

(Message last edited Sep-28th-03  5:50 AM.)

FLA did the right thing. I can't imagine anyone more fitting for the death sentence, unless last fall's VA snipers.

Actually I was very surprised at how many killers used drugs or alcohol.
And I'm not talking about Lizzie, except in theory.
These people listed at that site were serial killers.
I did find it interesting that Gacy used valium and alcohol, which are both depressants.

With patent medicines in Victorian days containg all sorts of things now illegal, I'd think it would be easy for a young woman to become addicted to something accidently and not even know they were.

I can't help it that I know a few Cancer people of both sexes who are addicted or recovering from alcohol.  Look at Bush.  He's born July 6th.  He has overcome a drinking problem, he has admitted.
I think that sign has a built-in weakness in that department.

(Message last edited Sep-28th-03  3:32 PM.)

there's no doubt about it.  especially cancer and pisces.  and it isn't always the sun sign.  it's the moon or mars, often; or the ascendant -- and/or a neptune (king of nebulousness, and therefore of course, drugs) influence.

while you've been talking about lizzie and drugs, i was thinking about edgar allan poe (died 1849).  he was addicted to opium, which was very easy to get.  (it had a reputation for being good for digestive, intestinal problems.) astrologically, poe was a capricorn with a lot of planets in pisces.

***Are you sure it isn't a a mirage at the horizon? ***

an exception to a rule, for sure.

i got a film education from that place--just for rental fees.

I had just changed the channel on the T.V. a bit ago and there were all these PH.D's talking about treating Borderline Personality Disorder people!
They threw in a few Narcissists.
One Dr. said it was pretty much expected that when accepting a BPD person into therapy, concurrently the patient would be going through substance abuse program as it is common to the syndrome.
They inferred that alcohol or other substance was used by the patient for anxiety.  It would medicate them enough to function.
The doctors talked about getting them off those (drugs) and getting them onto theraputic drugs which would enhance the the analysis sessions.

If this is true of our Lizzie, how sad.  They didn't have the anti-anxiety medications they do today to treat such a thing.  Perhaps the sudden change in Lizzie's life when she joined the church group and bloomed was a nip of some narcotic substance to quell anxiety? 

These days I feel more & more that if Lizzie had a drug problem, Bowen knew about it.

I can see subtle conspiracies in this case existing insofar as things people considered unspeakable.

Hey Now!  Lay off us Cancers!    My dead dad was a Libra & my brother a Gemini and they were/are huge alcoholics. I admit I don't know their full charts.  I do wonder at times, since Cancer is supposed to be the most emotional sign, about addictions to handle depression, etc. I have quite a few Cancer friends who are on medication for depression. I guess because I'd grown up with two alcoholics, I turned to food.  I've gotten over that (a huge growth spurt at 14 helped too), but I've wondered about Lizzie being a Cancer and dealing with depression.  Certainly the amount of intense feelings going on in that house would be daunting for anyone and especially hard for someone emotionally sensitive. It would make sense that she seemed distant and cold in public because a good way to stop the input of all those emotions would be to throw up a huge emotional wall.
  Have you done a full chart analysis on Lizzie?  Is it posted somewhere on this site?  That would be interesting to read.

A Cancer!  I knew I liked you!
We'll need a birthday to add you to our list.
Here I am Cancering all over and no one wants to know my addiction?
I won't be coy.
I used to smoke but Stef asked me to quit after our mom died and I did, just like that!

June 28th.  Growing up around Atlanta my only strong addiction is Coca-cola.  In a crisis I'll reach for that before food!

GAWD/dess I used to love that stuff!
I gave that up also.
And Caffeine/coffee/tea...all but water.
I'm good at giving stuff up.
I should train people.

have you had your chart done?  if not, give me the basic info -- date, time, place -- and i'll look into it.

cancer is almost a cancer.  where males are concerned, it's at least as much a debility as an advantage.  i don't mean sun sign alone, but chart particulars.  i have a serious cancer influence.

this is really getting off the lizzie case, but this brings to my mind an opinion, for those who are interested.  most of my planets are in aries or cancer, which are naturally fighting -- while my sun is in taurus.  that is an explanation for my sanity.  the taurus sun is an anchor.  a chart always has a "balancing act" like this, but i never got very far past this in interpretation.

except for my father, i don't know any cancer males.  it helps that i know a capricorn. (i learned a lot from this one, they know how to research.)

this sounds so stupid to some.   out of context, it is stupid.  somewhere in the archives, is this beautiful description of the differences among the water signs by kat.  cancer is ocean.  pisces is streams.  scorpio is a pool.

that really is the best introduction to the subject you could get.  i still use that when i think about the differences within the water issue -- ocean, streams, pool.

I think it's really nice that you open up to us.
It feels natural coming from you especially because you are an astrologer.
I know 3 Cancer males very well, 2 are June.

The June ones love home & family but still retain that renegade aspect...fun-loving, adventurous, and can have conflicting loyalties.  They both have traveled extensively, one as roadie to a rock-n-roll band, the other with the military.  Both at 50 + are tired of travel.
The July one is sweet, bi-polar on med., ex-monk.  Very clear loyalties.

But do you know of its original formula?
Even today it uses an extract from rare So American leaves, processed to remove most of the illegal substance. But using sugar to give a lift.

Oh yeah!  I'm still not convinced that Coca-cola's secret formula is legal.
  That's interesting info about June Cancers. I definitely nest and love my home, but I love travel and get that gypsy wandering from time to time. (I'm in the process of moving this month). My July Cancer friend has been on medication for major depression and I think some bi-polar stuff.   My Granddaddy, my mother and I all share a strong resemblence and were very close. He was Pisces, Mom's a Scorpio and I'm Cancer. I've always thought it was neat we were the three Water Signs.  Thanks for the chart offer. A woman in Atlanta did my chart a while ago. I've got Virgo rising and a Scorpio moon.  The chart is packed in a box somewhere so I can't give you the rest of the info. (my best friend is Virgo w/Cancer rising. I always thought that was a hoot. We've been best friends since we were 8.)  I forgot if I had asked if you had ever been able to do a chart for Lizzie and if there was anything interesting in there? 

No one has done a chart because Lizzie's time of birth is not known.
Barbara Watters did one of those backward charts on Lizzie and it's very interesting.
Watters, Barbara H. "Was Lizzie Borden Guilty?" The Astrological Looks at Murder. Washington, D.C.: Valhalla Paperbacks, 1969. 61-90.
"Watters examines Lizzie's natal astrological chart and shows how the stars predicted her guilt."

Bibliography citation from LABVM/L:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/BibliographyCase.htm


(Message last edited Sep-30th-03  8:57 PM.)

Hello again.....remember me? lol.... I haven't been around much lately but I pop in here and again and I miss you all...

As for Bundy --- an interesting fact...he grew up believing that his mother was his sister... and that his grandmother was his mother (why does this remind me of China Town)... he found out the truth (that he was illegitimate in a time and place when that was a scandal, so his grandmother acted as his mother and his real mother acted as his sister) when he was an early teen, I think...oddly enough...the same sitaution happened in real life to  Jack Nicholson, who starred in China Town...

In any event...I am a follower of Stanton Samenow who is ADAMENT that NOTHING *makes* a criminal do what he/she does...not a bad childhood, poverty, incest, nothing external...it is purely a matter of their own choices (ultimately)... barring those who are mentally ill, of course.

Bundy was a narcissist with no empathy for anyone...a sociopath who egrandized himself and resented and loathed others. He basically had no more concern for human beings than he would for an insect... even at the end, he wasn't concerned about the families of the victims being given a chance for closure...he was purely self-consumed, bargaining for more for himself. ARGHH... criminals are sooo good at rhetoric and manipulation... trying to makes themselves out to be victims when they are victimizers. I have worked daily with criminals for 10 years and I am amazed --- they all see themselves as victims and they use this to avoid accountability....*stepping down from the soapbox*....

whoa boy ---- I am  Capricorn, born on Dec 31... can anyone please tell me that the next year will be a good one? Please? I'll even pay ya! Honestly --- I am very interested in astrology, but rather ignorant about it.... I would appreciate any help....Terrie

OK, but what made him go that way if his early life was faultless?
What about public opinon? Was he insulted by others who knew the truth about his bastardy? (Remind you of Wm S Borden?)

And BTW, why didn't Jack Nicholson turn out that way? (I'm not a fan after seeing him in "Chinatown", an unbelievable story.)

Hi again!
You know, I have read every Bundy book there is and I too had the impression that Bundy had been raised, duped into thinking his mother was his sister. etc. like Jack Nicholson!
But I did check that detail when Bundy's name came up, a while ago, in
Stephen G. Michaud and Hugh Aynesworth's book, The Only Living Witness, A True Account Of Homicidal Insanity, Linden Press, Simon & Schuster, New York, 1983.
Chapter 2, pgs. 58-9:
"Just before his fourth birthday, Teddy and his mother left Philadelphia to join her uncle and his family in Tacoma, Washington.  Later, a story attributed to the adult Ted Bundy had it that Louise posed as his older sister, not his mother.  This is not so; he always knew her as Mom.  However, the little boy was angry and confused about being torn from his grandfather, who doted upon him, and his grandfather's comfortable old house.  Teddy didn't know why his last name was briefly changed to Nelson - a temporary measure designed to deter strangers from asking embarrassing questions - or why they had to go live with his great-uncle Jack.  He didn't understand why his mother wanted to start a new life."

--I was glad to look this up then and find out something I didn't recall.  So here I post what I found out.  I should have done it before.  I truely don't know why I thought the same as you, Terrie.  Maybe we were conned by Bundy?

--Ray, Bundy says he always knew he was different.  He does think he had a genetic mistake.  He also admitted that he had stopped growing and maturing in high school and that was right where he just stalled.  He said he hit a brick wall.

As to Nicholson, I have always believed he was what I call "A Socially Acceptable Sociopath".  He has managed to transform his anti-social tendencies into a lucratve acting career.  But that is exactly what sociopaths are:  actors.  They can only mimic what they see around them because they have no link, no understanding, no common bond which tells them what it is like to be human.

(Message last edited Oct-17th-03  11:02 PM.)

I've read and heard that transfers to a new area are harder on the wife and kids than the husband. Taking TB away at a young age could have spared him the insults from others in the neighborhood.

(I grew up in a neigborhood where one of the boys came from a common-law marriage; older people talked about this.)