1. "Page 79 in Lincons "A Private Disgrace"- who was this persons?"
Posted by Jimmy Windeskog on Mar-24th-04 at 11:49 AM

From page 79 in Lincons book...

"A buggy with two men in it made a U-turn nad stopped in front of the Kelly cottage.

Next, a witness observed that the buggy hade a man in it. The witness gave him only a casual glance and did not recignize him . apparently he left the neighborhood almost at once, for he was not seen again.

At approximately the same time - "around nine" - another observer saw a yonung man go to the Bordens´front door and ring the bell. The door was opened and quickly slammed in his face - by Andrew, it has long been assumed, though this was reported by a neighbor the same side of the street, not a vantage point to se into the Bordens´hall."

Surley, if not Lincon i making this up by her self, someone should know who at least one of them was.
And when its a neighbor it should not be so many to choose from, rigth?

Does anyone know who this persons was?

(Message last edited Mar-24th-04  11:49 AM.)

AR Brown says (?) this was WS Borden and Wm Bassett. His book was shortened from the original 1100 pages, so this detail is lost.
Maybe the other know more?

Jimmy, your long subject line rivals Audrey's. (or imitates)?
Did you read the Brown book yet? 

It was Emma. Trust me on this one.

I think Jimmy is curious as to who the neighbors were that witnessed the men in the buggy and the note bearer.  Jimmy, I think Lincoln gives one of the witnesses of the men in the buggy as one of the workers in the livery stable that was a couple of doors up from the Borden's house, I will have to look and see if I can find it again. 

i don't think lincoln has any idea who this person was.  i can't see where she tries to identify him.  she is using bits and pieces from witnesses to show that someone went to the front door with a note, that it was lizzie who took it, understood it was a plot about another property transfer to abby, slammed the door, and took laundry upstairs with an axe hidden under it.  lincoln is constructing something here to explain lizzie's reaction of anger and her decision to get the axe.  in other words, i would not consider this a good source for identifying a note-bearer.  whether there was a note-bearer or not.  i see your page 79 (i have the same edition) and the following pages -- even if lincoln speculates about the identity of the note-bearer somewhere much later in the text (and this is important) -- it would be outside the available case evidence and specifically to support lincoln's story or "fiction."

the "Witness Statements" is a good place to look for what/who people saw around the place that morning.  as far as "suspicious characters" go, there are no names.  and these accounts may well be true -- but the encounter at the front door between someone and lizzie is lincoln's creation.

i was very familiar with lincoln's book but it's been a year at least since i last read it.  the part you are puzzling over i also found very difficult and questionable.

i don't believe anyone established the identity of the person who was supposed to have the door slammed in his face -- but then lincoln uses this "uncertainty" to further develop her plot.

njwolfe:
I have just startet. Thanks once more!!!

Susan
You got the point! The question is "who were the neighbors", not  "who were note bearer".

Thanks, Jimmy.  I'm still looking for you,  I wish Lincoln's book had an index of some sort. 

If you would care to volunteer? Start by doing 5 pages at a time, use a spreadsheet or 5"x8" cards for each name.

In Fritz's article in The Hatchet, he has one witness in the Guy who can be considered a neighbor, because he lived over Wades store:

Trial
Page 1363

Afternoon Session.


MARK P. CHASE, Resumed.

Q.  (By Mr. Jennings.)  Where do you live, Mr. Chase?
A.  8 Rodman Street.

Q.  Did you live there at the time of the murder?
A.  No, sir.

Q.  Where did you live at the time of the murder?
A.  Boarded at the St. James and had a room in Mrs. Chase's.

Q.  Where is that?
A.  Over Wade's grocery store.

Q.  Across the street from your stable?
A.  On the same street, yes, sir.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Q.  (By Mr. Knowlton.)  The place where you were standing was north or south of the Borden house?
A.  South of the Borden house.

Q.  Further up the hill?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Pretty near up to the corner of Spring street?
A.  Very near.

Q.  On the same side or the opposite side of Second street?
A.  On the opposite side to the Borden house.

Q.  How long had you been around there?
A.  All forenoon.

Q.  When was your attention first directed to this team?
A.  It was directed to it five or ten minutes to eleven.

Q.  What?
A.  Five or ten minutes to eleven.

Q.  You had not seen it before that time?
A.  No, sir.

Q.  Have you been where you could have seen it before that time?
A.  No, sir.

Q.  Whether it had been there any length of time, you don't know?

Page 1364

A.  No, sir.

Q.  What position did you have?
A.  I was going over to Mr. Wade's to cut a pad for [a] horse's back and I cast my eyes around and saw it.

Thanks, Kat.  Jimmy, here is how Lincoln has it, it starts at the bottom of page 79:

"Mark Chase, the proprietor of the livery stable, sat out front that whole morning, his chair in the shade of a tree.  It was no day to make you feel like doing much.  He first noticed the buggy when he settled himself there at half past nine.  It was a good horse, and one that did not belong in the neighborhood; Chase noticed horses."

It continues on page 83:

"The buggy also stood in its place until around ten thirty or shortly before.  At this point, Mark Chase, who had abeen watching it from his chair under the shady tree, went into the stable for a while.  When he came back, it was gone; the young man was not seen again either."

The young man Lincoln refers to is Dr. Handy's wild-eyed man, the one that was seen loitering out front of the Borden home the morning of the murders.

Lincoln is a bad girl.  Do you suppose she knew of and read the Trial, and still manipulated the facts?
She's not the only one tho, who did this.

Yes, Kat, Lincoln deserves to get spanked for this, thats why I'm so appreciative that you picked up on it and posted what you did in post #10.  According to Lincoln, she did read the Trial through and through, how she got Mark Chase to be sitting in a chair outside the livery stable is a manipulation of facts worthy of Lizzie herself!

But, thats Lincoln for ya'! 

This has the ring of truth in it. Trust a stableman to notice the horse. That would be like today's mechanic noticing the manufacturer, model, color, and condition of a parked car, but ignoring the people inside (unless an attractive woman). "It's not my job."
What do you notice in a strange car? The color, or the people inside?

Doesn't this sound like today's coffee break?
Wouldn't a business like this have a mid-morning lull?
Wouldn't sitting outside under a tree on a hot August day sound right? Especially if this was his habit at that time.

I don't know if she "manipulated" the facts, rather than creating them. But professional writers do know how to present facts to create a best-seller.

Ok, so we can´t trust Lincon on the Mark Chanse subjekt.

But what about the "another observer" who "saw a yonung man go to the Bordens´front door and ring the bell"???

This must be a person on the same side of the streeth, rigth?

Hey Jimmy has a profile!!!!
Thanks Jimmy!

I was reading Phillips "The Borden Mystery:  In Defense of Lizzie Borden" and if anyone got Mark Chase info from there, they had every right to believe what he wrote (which is similar to Lincoln) but woe unto them who do not check back to testimony, since it is available- even to Phillips!

"I am showing herewith a photograph of Second Street taken that same fall. I took it at an hour corresponding with the hour of the murder. It shows the normal travel on the street at that hour. It was taken from the stable door where Mark Chase, a witness, was sitting during the murder period. Chase had been assistant to the chief of police of the city but he had retired and was interested in horses kept at his stable; he was prominent and trustworthy, trained to careful observation, he knew horses and he saw a horse, not known in the neighborhood, hitched to an open buggy standing under the tree which the photograph shows, but due to the fact that one would naturally seek such shade for shelter on such a hot day, he paid little attention to it. He later judged that it was standing there for an hour and a half; he saw a man in the wagon but saw no one leave it or drive it away. It had departed before the murder was known."

--I can't discount that he told the defense one thing and the prosecution something else, but under oath, this is not what Chase claimed.

(Message last edited Mar-28th-04  4:07 PM.)