1. "Decapitated Pigeons?"
Posted by hannah on May-30th-03 at 11:48 AM

Is there any truth in the rumour that Andrew decapitated Lizzie's pigeons? With a role model like that, I wouldn't be surprised if Lizzie DID kill her Father and Abby.

Another point that I find intersting, is that Bridget and Mrs. Churchill spotted Abby Borden as they came up the stairs, but she was lying on the OTHER side of the bed. Also, why was she placed on her stomach? - she must have been, as when she was lying face down, the police officers thought she had fainted. And where were the blood 'splats' that were all over the lounge after Andrew Borden was attacked?

I really cannot believe that Lizzy Borden attacked her step-mother with a hatchet, the turned her face over, cleaned the room, made the bed, went and killed her father, left him exactly where he was and immediately got cleaned up and called for help. It just does not add up.

Ok, I didn't make myself very clear. The front of Abby's head was attacked, so she must have been turned over afterwards. Also, there is no comment about blood in the room, whereas we have information on the location of Andrew's splattered blood within the lounge. Why was none of Abby's blood splattered around the bedroom?

Hi, Hannah!
You might want to avail yourself of some of the reading materials on the "lizzieandrewborden.com" website, with which this Forum is affiliated:

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/TableofContents.htm

The answers to some of your questions can be found there.  For one thing, it's generally accepted that Abby Borden was killed at least an hour before Andrew -- maybe earlier than that.  There was a "flap" wound on the side of her head and some contusions on her face that might have been caused by falling; however, most of her wounds were on her back and the back of her head, indicating that the attack took place with someone straddllng the body and Abby lying facedown.  Thus it wouldn't have been necessary for the killer to turn the body over afterward. 
There were blood spatters in various parts of the room, such as on the bedspread and the nearby dressing case, so the killer apparently didn't clean up the room after the deed.  Abby had already made the bed, so the killer didn't need to do that either.
Bridget and Mrs. Churchill were partway up the front staircase when they were able to look under the guest room bed (at their eye level)and see Abby's body crumpled on the other side.  They had gone upstairs to look for her, and since she had said she was going to that room, it was a natural place to look.  If anyone said he thought Abby had fainted, it was probably Dr. Bowen, although I think he later denied having said that.
Lizzie testified at the Inquest that Andrew had killed some pigeons that had lived in the Borden barn.  However, despite the scenes in "The Legend of Lizzie Borden" movie, there's no evidence that the pigeons were Lizzie's pets.  Lizzie didn't seem to be sure how Andrew killed the pigeons, but she thought he had wrung the necks of some of them, rather than chopping their heads off.

Can you tell us what reading you've done on the case?  We might be able to point you to some more reliable sources.

(Message last edited May-30th-03  2:17 PM.)

Not very much, as you can tell!! I only found out that the case existed yesterday, so the only research I have done has been on websites. That's why I haven't come across as much evidence as anyone else!

I'm sure that the officers that found Abby (not 'found' as in the Bridget and Mrs. Churchill sense) thought, initially, that she had fainted. I remember reading that it wasn't until they turned her over that they realisd what had happened. Naturally, I presumed that nothing had been done to the back of her head, as I thought they would have noticed this.

I could still understand why Lizzie would be more capable than many other people of killing if her father killed pigeons, the way he did it isn't really that relevant. However, I'm glad that you have provided me with the correct information.

Even though Abby was killed over an hour before Andrew, I'm really not all that convinced about the short amount of time between him being killed and Lizzie calling for Bridget. If the killer waited an hour to after murdering Abby, whoever the killer was, why wait a whole 20minutes before killing Andrew? And I'm not totally convinced that Lizzie would have had time to either a) wash her dress (impossible), or b) change her dress and hide the bloodstained one where there was no risk of anyone finding it. And I really don't think that she could have done it covered up, so that she did not get blood on her dress, or on her face, and in her hair, as it would have been.

I'm sure you've all talked through these points already, but I am just trying to expand on/explain what I wrote. I'm sure you can understand that, being new to the case, there is lots of information to take in. It's very hard for me to retain it all. Hopefully after a lot more reading, I will be able to keep up with everyone else who is intested in these murders.

Hannah

Welcome to the forum & the USA, Hannah!

I strongly suggest you start readin David Kent's "40 Whacks" for an overall view; a complete biography. Arnold R Brown solved the case in his book (some may disgree, but they haven't done any better). Your library may not have all the books.

OK, since you're sure the officers thought Abby had fainted, can you give us your source for that information?  (That's the way the Forum usually works.  If the person posting doesn't give a source for his/her information, there's usually a request from somebody that it be provided.)  It sounds as if you've done quite well in getting up to date on the Borden case, incidentally.  We've all noticed, however, that most of the Borden websites have at least some misinformation.
With regard to the death of the pigeons (whether from decapitation or other means): In those days, meats often weren't butchered and packaged before sale, as they are now.  If one wanted chicken, that often meant buying a live fowl and either chopping its head off or wringing its neck.  The pigeons that Andrew slaughtered were probably intended for the table too.  Do you think that every young person who witnessed the slaughter of animals for the table turned out to be a violent criminal?

  Hi Hannah!  Welcome to the forum!

Hello Hannah!

It would be interesting to know the sites you visited to gather your info.  We are always on the lookout for web-sites that confer misinformation.
That can be considered a *source*, which Edisto asked for.

As to reading up on this case, the testimonies are a good start.
The Witness Statements and the Inquest, to begin give factual details and would give you a good foundation to build upon.  My suggestion is to read the authors after the source documents.  That way you can make up your own mind.
Did you never see the movie, The Legend of Lizzie Borden?
Or any of the video's?

Here is a transcription of the *blood evidence* accounted for in Dr. Dolan, the Medical Examiner"s Preliminary Hearing testimony.
This is useful, in that it will help you visualize how the crimes may have happened.  It's a kind of bonus too, because this source is not readily available without cost.
Then read the autopsy of Abby Borden for the particulars as to where her wounds were located.

If you read some past postings here yesterday in preparation of your first posting, you might have possibly run across something I put up where the policeman turns Abby over and says *Her face is all smashed In!*

If that might be something you read, it would be out of context.  That's why I would like to point you first to the autopsy.

Blood Evidence:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/BloodEvidence.htm
From LizzieAndrewBordenVirtualMuseum&Library
&
Autopsy of Abby:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/AutopsyAbbyBorden.htm

These excerpts are located in the "Crime Library", 'Evidence'.

Hi.

As I say, I only found out about this case three days ago, after years of fascination with the 'Jack the Ripper' case in London, around the same time. During my three days of research, obviously I have not been able to determine which parts of the information I have found have been fact, and which have not.

I have not seen any videos, or read any books on the case so far, but I hope to very soon.

Thank you for the links, I am sure that, after reading them, I will have a much truer picture of what reallt happened.

Hannah

There are still places nearby that sell "Live Chickens" and will kill and clean them for an additional fee. One way to get really fresh meat! Just like "Consumer Reports" advice on picking out a piece of meat then getting it ground in front of you. No switching in the back.