1. "Follow the Pillow Cases"
Posted by haulover on Dec-13th-03 at 7:05 PM

this is something i've been meaning to get around to -- i noticed it a while back.  Lizze's Inquest -- my favorite evidence.  i'd love to write a thorough analysis of her inquest someday, but i'm still just finding "parts."  this is one lizzie-istic part that i don't think we've yet done to death (well, i could have missed it if it's way back in the archives).  it concerns those pillow cases.

My question is this:  In addition to whether there were small pillows at the foot of that bed with or without these pillow cases -- is lizzie trying to say that abby had pillow cases (already made) to put on these pillows -- or is she saying that abby was somehow in the process of making pillow cases to put on the pillows?

below is from lizzie's inquest, and i may editorialize with brackets.
____________________________

Q. Did she say anything about making the bed?
A. She said she had been up and made the bed up fresh, and had dusted the room and left it all in order.  She was going to put some fresh pillow slips on the small pillows at the foot of the bed, and was going to close the room, because she was going to have company Monday and she wanted everything in order.
[i can only gather that lizzie learned this when she spoke to abby in the dining room (supposedly after abby had made the bed--we know it was made when she was killed).  (there is one place in witness statements where apparently lizzie said she saw abby making up the bed as she went downstairs.)  abby's stated intention to go back up signaled lizzie that abby was going back up there and therefore provided her the opportunity to murder abby in a place not visible to anyone coming into the house?  this "company" to my knowledge was never identified -- but in addition to that, how likely or practical was it that abby would "close up the room" for four days when the girls, according to alice, did use that spare room as a "sitting room."]
Q. How long would it take to put on the pillow slips?
A. About two minutes.
[So pillow slips were made, we're talking merely about putting them on the cushions.]
Q. How long to do the rest of the things?
A. She had done that when I came down.
Q. All that was left was what?
A. To put on the pillow slips.
[Still we're talking about just putting on pillow slips.  now get ready for one of lizzie's "turns."]
Q. Can you give me any suggestion as to what occupied her when she was up there, when she was struck dead?
A. I don't know of anything except she had some cotton cloth pillow cases up there, and she said she was going to commence to work on them.  That is all I know.  And the sewing machine was up there.
[here we go with the switch.  now it's no longer just putting on the slips.  it's that she was going to "commence to work on them" -- and in conjunction with that, lizzie implies sewing work.  (let me say here that i've come to see lizzie's "That is all" statement as a blue light that she is concealing.)  to explain the time, lizzie is suggesting that abby was sewing -- and notice in her wording she connects the pillow cases to the possibility of sewing (as opposed to putting on slips that would take two minutes).]

LATER........

Q. Do you know of any employment that would occupy your mother for the two hours between nine and eleven in the front room?
[I assume knowlton means the upstairs spare room where abby was killed.]
A. Not unless she was sewing.
[It's possible Abby was sewing in that room.]
Q. If she had been sewing you would have heard the machine?
A. She did not always use the machine.
[her answer is evasive.  lizzie does not say "yes" she would have heard the machine.  she is admitting she would have heard the machine but that -- that does not mean that Abby wasn't sewing.]
Q. Did you see, or were there found, anything to indicate that she was sewing up there?
A. I don't know.  She had given me a few weeks before some pillow cases to make.
[this is the part that vexes me.  just what is she trying or trying not to say?  it sounds like lizzie is now saying that abby might have given her a "sewing job?"  but the thread running beneath the surface is that lizzie is now talking about "making pillow cases" as opposed to "putting on pillow cases."  but there is something here even more baffling.  could it be that these pillow cases in question were sewn by lizzie herself at abby's request, and that today abby is going to use them?  this seems to be a classic lizzieism (that is, an answer to a logical question, an answer which is fairly logical on the surface, but in actuality illogical in terms of the logic of the questioning.  Knowlton is trying to get at Abby's time in the room, and Lizzie resorts to an answer that may actually be true in terms of how pillow cases came into being, but her answer is outside the bounds of the question.  i have to backtrack a bit to put this together:  abby went up to put on pillow cases, abby may have sewed up there without the machine, now lizzie herself may have dealt with pillow cases some weeks before.  if i may hazard a psychological guess:  lizzie is explaining the history of some pillow cases as a way of explaining abby's time in the spare room that day?  or is there something else altogether here i don't see?]
Q. My question is not that.  Did you see, or were there found, anything to indicate that she had done any sewing in that room that morning?
[he sticks to his point, but lizzie's elusiveness sneaks past him.]
A. I don't know.  I was not allowed in that room; I did not see it.
[after all, she has no idea what abby might have done and no real reason to think that abby might have sewed?]
Q. Was that room where she usually sewed?
A. No sir.
[she doesn't think of it as abby's sewing room.]
Q. Did you ever know her to use that room for sewing?
A. Yes sir.
[of course, that had sometimes been the case.]
Q. When?
A. Whenever she wanted to use the machine.
[so it was for the use of the machine that abby would have sewed there -- the machine which lizzie did not hear in use on the morning of the murders.]
Q. When she did not want to use the machine, did you know she used that room for sewing?
[is it conceivable that she would have used the spare bedroom for any kind of sewing?]
A. Not unless she went up to sew a button on, or something.
[lizzie has already told us that is not where abby usually sewed.  but not just that -- she has told us specifically that abby would use that room for sewing WHEN SHE WANTED TO USE THE MACHINE.]
Q. She did not use it as a sitting room?
A. No sir.
Q. Leaving out the sewing, do you know of anything else that would occupy her for two hours in that room?
A. No, not if she had made the bed up, and she said she had when I went down.
Q. Assuming the bed was made?
A. I don't know anything.
Q. Did she say she had done the work?
A. She said she had made the bed and was going to put on the pillow cases, about 9 o'clock.
[we're no longer sewing, just putting on pillow cases.  also lizzie gives us the approximate time of abby's murder.]
Q. I ask you again, remembering that--
A. I told you that yesterday.
Q. Nevermind about yesterday.
______________________

At this point he demands to know her conversation with Abby.

1.  abby was going to put on pillow cases.
2.  she didn't normally sew in that room; she would tend to do so if she used the machine, which she didn't; then again, she might sew in that room.
3.  and abby gave lizzie some pillow cases to make a few weeks back.

any insights?

Sorry once again my kids are crawling all over me and hit the button!
Anyway, I forgot what I was saying!  Oh!  About the sewing in the guest room, if Abby wanted to close that room off and keep it in order, why would she then proceed to go up there and sew, am I the only one who makes a terrible mess when I sew?  I think if she wanted it closed up to keep it neat she would have avoided that area, if she needed the machine would not she have finished her sewing first then did the clean up?  I think the whole thing was a lie on Lizzie's part to explain why she was not concerned about where Abby was.

oops! the first part of my message did not show up!  Now I have to remember what I said... I was wondering about the crime scene photos, the one of Abby as they found her did you notice the fringe hanging out from the bedspread?  In the photo of the bed all made up the fringe is very neatly tucked in and I don't see any small pillows at the end of the bed.  Do you think Abby was in the process of making the bed when her murderer snuck up on her, and the conversation about the bed all made up and closing the room off never occured?

The guestroom bed & bedspread - The bed had been tampered with first by Bowen, then by Doherty,

Prelim
Bowen
403
[first *authority* on scene]
Q.  How much space was there on either side of the body, between the bureau and the body, and the body and the bed?
A.  I dont think I went between the dressing case and the body, but I went between the bed and the body. There was very little room, and I presume I moved the bed in going there.


Prelim
Doherty
329-330
[heard about fracas  11:32 a.m. and ran there and brought Wixon.  Bowen was there]
A. [human hair was] On the bed. I wanted to examine the woman, but there was not room between the bed and dressing case to walk. I walked back to the foot of the bed, up around the north side of the bed, and I pulled it out about three feet, away from her.
.........
331
Q.  Did you put the bed back again?
A.  No Sir.
........

Trial
Dolan
870
Q.  Will you look at the photographs there from that point of view to see if that correctly indicates the position of the body as you first saw it?  (showing picture)
A.  Yes.

Q.  Had the bed been disturbed before you took these photographs?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  You did not see that done?
A.  No, sir, the bed was in perfect

Page 870

condition as I first saw it.

Q.  Was it made when you first saw it?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  What was on the bed in the way of covering?
A.  A white bed spread and pillow shams.

Q.  Did you see the bed moved?
A.  No, sir, I did not.

...........

Now, I have read that the guest room bed spread was pulled back and then flung back up again by an officer before the photographs were taken.
Since we are going by the photographs in your post as to the condition of that bed I tried to find that but can't.  It's in my memory but a search came up empty.
Maybe someone can find that?

Anyway, the bed doesn't look like it did when Abby was found.  There was a chunk of hair on it as well and we don't see that in the photo.
The first picture of Abby was taken with bed in place, then bed moved, then bed was put back again.  All the maneuvering of that bed and I doubt it would look freshly made.  Dr. Dolan says it looked "in perfect condition" when he saw it.  Whatever that means.

Abby met her murderer face to face before her first wound.
These are good questions you have and I'm sorry I am lost trying to find that one detail about the spread.


(Message last edited Dec-14th-03  1:38 AM.)

Yea, how did you write that without an edit?  I have to edit just to close paranthesis.

Anyway, good post and I think you took it apart and put it together again pretty well.
My only comments might be:
That Abby did mean to close up the guest room mainly because she was expecting company Monday and if Lizzie was let loose in there with her friend (s) Abby knew full well Lizzie would not clean it up again in time for Abby's visitor?  This is mainly because Emma is away.  Emma would clean it back up after use, I'm sure.

That Lizzie is asked what would keep Abby up there 2 hours and she just thinks well the sewing stuff is up there and maybe Abby hand-sews a bit of this and a bit of that all the time, in her everyday work-a-day world.  So Lizzie pictures the sewing machine in that room particularly and offers that as a solution.  She hasn't yet thought through to another question which will be asked eventually, which is does Abby use that room for sewing usually?
Like, say it was Lizzie's library, and Lizzie reads and so does Abby and Abby is found dead in Lizzie's library, where she rarely goes, and Lizzie might be asked why would Abby go into your library?  And Lizzie would say *to read*.

However:  From where did Lizzie get the piece of tape or loop or whatever she was sewing that morning?  Wouldn't all the sewing stuff be kept in the sewing room?  Is that Lizzie's way of telling us she was in that room that morning?

That the buttons were kept in that room as a sewing room and if it was a button particularly which Abby mythically wanted to sew she would have to do that in the guest room?

Another thing is, why did Abby have to come down from cleaning the guest room in order to get pillow slips for the bed?  Wouldn't those be kept in that room?
Maybe, since the laundry was only finally ironed and laid out to be taken to the occupants separate rooms by Thursday morning, the pillow slips were on the kitchen table with the rest of the piles of clean laundry?

That loop that Lizzie sewed sounds like it is already on the sleeve, its just torn, it sounds like a button loop.  But, thats a good question, where did Lizzie get the needle and thread from, the guest room where the sewing items were kept or did she have her own little work basket with these items in her room?  And the term Lizzie uses is "baste", here is the definition:

Large, loose, easily removed stitch used to temporarily hold two or more layers of fabric together.

It sounds like a quick, sloppy way of sewing, why didn't Lizzie do a more permanent stitch on the loop?  To me it sounds like shes trying to say even with her bit of sewing that she was quick and not upstairs for very long.  But, what would she have used for a more permanent stitch, the sewing machine?  Hmmmm.


Abby coming down for pillow slips is odd, I would think it would be more convenient to keep all that up in the guest room itself.  But, we do know that Abby kept sheets and things up in her room, perhaps she had to come down, go to the back of the house, up to her room to get the pillow slips and come back down again, quite a trip. 

***But, we do know that Abby kept sheets and things up in her room, perhaps she had to come down, go to the back of the house, up to her room to get the pillow slips and come back down again, quite a trip***

this is exactly what i was "seeing" -- when abby says she has to get the pillow slips -- this means going back up the back stairs.  this gives lizzie the time needed to think and plan it.  if we believe bridget about seeing lizzie at the door, we have to wonder exactly where abby was at that moment.  but at that moment lizzie is alone with abby.  and when lizzie is at the door, the cellar (axes) is at hand.

***However:  From where did Lizzie get the piece of tape or loop or whatever she was sewing that morning?  Wouldn't all the sewing stuff be kept in the sewing room?  Is that Lizzie's way of telling us she was in that room that morning? ***

that suggests a scenario i had not envisioned -- that lizzie is sewing in that room.  perhaps she chats with abby as abby makes the bed (weapon hidden).  and then perhaps those pillow slips abby indeed wanted she never got because she was struck down before she could leave the room to get them? 

and correct me if i'm wrong -- but we have no evidence of "the small pillows at the foot of the bed" do we?  and no way of knowing because the police did not take detailed inventory of the room?

but what you say turns the story in an interesting way.  i think we tend to think that the killer suddenly entered the room and struck her.  perhaps not.  it would be ironic if those pillow slips were the last words abby ever said.

and if this is the way it happened, you can see why lizzie would restrict all conversation with abby to the dining room.

Lizzie at Inquest, first use of word baste is (60):
Q. What were you doing?
A. As I say, I took up these clean clothes, and stopped and basted a little piece of tape on a garment.

I have basted and I have used tape on a hem.  It is a temporary job but it does take a while.  Finding the tape and getting matching thread and the proper sized needle and lining thing up in preparation to sew.

The next time Lizzie uses the word Baste is (61):
A. I had only been upstairs just long enough to take the clothes up and baste the little loop on the sleeve. I don't think I had been up there over five minutes.

She says she was in her room, (61):
Q. Where were you when the bell rang?
A. I think in my room up stairs.
Q. Then you were up stairs when your father came home?
A. I don't know sure, but I think I was.

She's inferring she sewed in her room.  I think if the guest room is so close and it holds the sewing basket (of the household?)* that Lizzie might very well have sewn that loop or whatever in the guest room or gotten the things she needed from there.  Why keep that stuff in both places when one is just steps away?

Does it sound like Lizzie is saying that basting a piece of tape and basting the little loop on the sleeve is the same thing?
Maybe a loop to a button came loose in the laundry and Lizzie decided to say she was upstairs sewing that after bringing her clothes up to put away and that's why it came to mind right then.
Wouldn't Lizzie be opening the clothes press then, to put a *dress* away?
If not, then no *dresses* came from the clean laundry that week?
Maybe that's why everyone was asked if Abby's body could be seen from the doorway or the landing because they were trying to place Lizzie at the upper closet door?
This laundry-putting-away-thing can impact a lot.  Pillow slips cleaned on the kitchen table might bring Abby back down stairs after them to take them up?

....
*Dolan/Prelim/198
Q.  Do you remember any work basket being there?
A.  Yes Sir, immediately in front of this chair.
Q.  What was this work basket resting on?
A.  On the floor---- no, I think it was a rocking chair up against the bureau, and then the basket was sitting on the other ordinary cane seated chair, opposite.
Q.  You mean the rocking chair was up against the bureau at the end of it, between that and the window, in that space?
A.  Yes Sir.
Q.  The other chair was on the other side of the window in front of it, having the work basket on it?
A.  Yes Sir, and the sewing machine behind it.
Q.  Is that in the photograph?
A.  No Sir.



(Message last edited Dec-14th-03  11:54 PM.)

I'm a bit confused because I know you know what was said in the dining room.  It was a whole littany of things which Lizzie eventually recalled.  And it happened right around the time Bridget saw Abby as well in the dining room and received the wash-window order.   Around 9 a.m.  It was about 9:30 when Lizzie was at the screen door to speak to Bridget outside (according to Bridget) and the State wants to know where the heck was Abby for at least that half hour, or where the heck did Lizzie want to suppose Abby was??

--Abby was up in the guest room around 8:45 until 9 or so by Morse's supposing and Lizzie's.  The 9 a.m. is confirmed in the DR by Lizzie and Bridget.  Lizzie is saying she went upstairs just before her father came home.
So you think she brought up the clothes earlier with the hatchet- say 9:10?
Then she would have hidden a hatchet in her room or brought it up from the cellar when she first used the facility in the morning (9) or as soon as Abby went upstairs?  Lizzie couldn't go to the cellar between 9 & 9:30 because Bridget was hovering all around there in the kitchen/dining room.

(Message last edited Dec-15th-03  12:04 AM.)

Lincoln has this idea and it might still be viable; after Lizzie kills Abby she has blood on her Bedford cord, she needs to change, the closest thing she owns description-wise is the Bengaline dress.  She goes to change into it and notices that one of the button loops on the sleeve of the blouse is torn.  I mean why baste the button loop on, why not sew it permanently?  What did Lizzie have that was so pressing in her life that she couldn't take a few minutes and do a proper sewing job?  Could it be that she needed to change into that Bengaline outfit and found it wasn't presentable and wanted to be seen in it promptly?  To me basting is a quick fix and why would Lizzie need to do a quick fix when she basically had all the time in the world if innocent? 

I think Lizzie is doing what many Bordenites have been doing--that is, constructing a timeline.  However, she is doing it from HER side of the events.  This inquest testimony was gathered after the murders.  By then, it must have seemed clear to all that Abby was murdered quite a while before Andrew.  I think Lizzie was originally trying to present things to imply that the murders occurred close together in time.  Then she got "caught," so I think all this "stream of consciousness" style verbal meandering is Lizzie's way of leaving herself large loopholes so she will be able to appear innocent no matter when the two separate murders took place.  She is preparing to justify her lack of awareness of the murders with various scenarios: Abby being out, Abby being busy upstairs for a while, etc.  I think Lizzie is desperately trying to keep one step ahead of the questioners and is struggling to invent a timeline that "fits."  I think she is being an "artful dodger."  I must remember to ask my psychiatrist friend to look at some of these examples of "Lizzie-speak" to see if they betray any mental conditions!

Susan I follow you on this as a seamstress, the word baste is
like "put some duck tape on it".  The jury I'm sure didn't pick up on
this!  Good sluething!  Nancy Drew

i understand what you're saying.  i was just testing the possibility that a whole conversation took place between them in the guest room at some point.  perhaps it was lizzie who went down to the get the pillow cases but watched for bridget to leave before she did so.  of course, i don't know.

i do think that dense conversation knowlton pries from her is questionable to say the least.  she just keeps adding, forgetting, adding other things, etc.

if we're to believe lizzie on this, abby made up that bed "fresh." -- meaning abby had to do something with the dirty laundry.  perhaps abby was down and up more than once?  i know bridget is piddling around until 9:30, but she may be very busy.........by the way, this is what is wrong with radin's timeline - bridget's housework is not completely accounted for but it's happening anyway.

that is insightful.  at least, that is the "stuff" that i'm looking at.  perhaps we can put it this way:  resist clarifications but insist on possibilities.  let's see if i can make such a list:
1. she used that room for the machine.
2. she might have sewed on a button in there anyway.
3. she kept things in that room.
4. i could have missed passing her downstairs
5. [now when finally cornered] oh yes, there was this note.

___________________

you clarify something else that is a constant source of confusion:  lizzie's awareness of whether/how the time difference between the murders would show.  initially, she's trying to construct a story where she goes out to the barn and returns and they are both murdered.  she has heard things -- she wants someone to find mrs. borden.

unless lizzie is a fool, by the time of her inquest, she must know that it is common knowledge that nearly two hours separate the murders.  so now the story is that she was there but saw and heard nothing.  she offers every suggestion she can think  of EXACTLY AS THOUGH SHE HAD NEVER BEEN THERE.

But does Lincoln account for the high probability that Lizzie was wearing calico cotton when she was seen by Bridget after Lizzie called her down.
I assume Lizzie was wearing cotten all that morning, including when Bridget let in Andrew at the door.
Lizzie was not seen in the Bengaline.
I was wondering if the sewing on of tape or whatever was Lizzie's accounting for damage to what she did wear if she killed Abby.  Maybe Abby pulled a button off her or something.  That could be why Lizzie needed instant *repair*.
Because she's been in the *sewing room* killing Abby and because she needs sewing materials to fix what got torn in the attack, Lizzie alights on the suggestion that Abby was lost all morning sewing herself in that sew/guest room.  An opinion/theory.
Also, the Bengaline was examined thoroughly by forensics (ha) and nothing was said about a temporary sewing job done on it.
It must not have been the Bengaline upon which Lizzie sewed.

Thanks, NJ, thats one of those things thats been staring up at me from Lizzie's Inquest for years, but, I never gave it much thought until now.


I like your idea better than Lincoln's, Kat.  Yes, it most possibly could have been the dress Lizzie was wearing that got torn and she needed to get out of that room and downstairs for an alibi, hence the basting, the "quick fix".  Then theres also the idea that if the Bedford cord was bloodstained, Lizzie may have changed into the outfit that all saw her in after Andrew's murder.  That could have been the one with the torn loop on the sleeve?  Don't you wish Knowlton would have had the forethought to ask Lizzie where did you get the needle and thread to sew the loop on the sleeve and where did you do it? 

That's a good point Kat about the just basted loop not being looked for by the police.  If she didn't repair her dress, is it just another Lizzie unnecessary enhancement and she was lucky that the police didn't follow up on it?  If she did could she have done it the day or night before and remembered it and used it as a reason for going upstairs? 

I think the police made a BIG mistake in not delaying the Inquest a few more days while they could have gotten their act together a little better.  It all seemed so rushed to me.

The last time Lizzie claims to have seen Abby, Abby was in the guest room finishing up. Lizzie's on her way down stairs.

If Lizzie thought Abby went out, how did she think she went? She certainly wouldn't leave directly from the guest room and out the front door. No woman of that time would leave her home without a hat.  She would at least need that if not a complete change of dress.  Even if only a hat she would have to come down stairs through the lower rooms.  She would have to go up to her own room if there was no hat down stairs. A new dress would definitely require a trip to her room. Would not Lizzie or Bridget have seen her?

Interesting posts by Haulover.

All these women on the case, and it took a man to catch that detail.  Great detection!!!

of course.  you know, it's almost like a comedy skit trying to imagine it.  it was LITERALLY impossible for abby to pass through without lizzie's notice (lizzie offers every possible explanation for it she can think of, as though it is just as mysterious to her as it is to knowlton -- and it's along that very line where she "cracks" in a sense and offers the note story -- this note story she obviously wanted to avoid -- she is forced into it.  lizzie then finds it necessary to volunteer that abby had said she would not change her dress -- to explain why the dead woman is in her house-cleaning dusting dresss.

and a note about that note -- something lizzie might well have considered later (at any rate, i think lizzie believes at her inquest that the note had been a bad idea) -- what is almost a certain fiction is that abby would tell her of a sick note without a word about who it was.  isn't it funny, in a way, that lizzie is telling us here that she herself never gave a rat's ass who was sick?

even mere maggie the maid asked who it was.

OK -- I'm getting mixed up here. Did Lizzie ever testify directly that she saw Abby upstairs in the guest room as she was coming down?  I thought we just had Fleet's testimony as to that. 

Doesn't Lizzie say at the Inquest that the last time she saw Abby was in the dining room?  Abby says she's going out, Lizzie goes down to the cellar, and presumes Abby went out during that time?

And according to Bridget, Abby would not have had to go to her room to get her bonnet and shawl.  She kept them "in the closet in the sitting room ..." (Prelim.,61)

I agree about haulover's posts -- provocative stuff.

Then it's a matter of who you believe. What Fleet said she said on the day of the murder or Lizzie at the Inquest.  I prefer to believe Fleet. From the Preliminary, pg. 361:

"Q.  Did she say anything to you about when she last saw Mrs. Borden?
A.  Yes. I asked her when she saw Mrs. Borden last. She said the last time that she saw her was about nine o'clock that morning, when she was going down stairs. "Where did you see her then?" "I saw her in the room where she was found murdered."
Q.  Did she say what she was doing in there?
A.  She was fixing the bed. She also said in the previous conversation, the first conversation, that she thought that Mrs. Borden had received a note, or letter, from someone that morning, and "We thought she had gone out of the house." That was the first talk with her."

Yes, Bridget does testify that Abby kept a bonnet and shawl in the sitting room closet.  Abby would still have to come down stairs to get that and it would seem to me that if she was going out of the house for an indeterminate period of time she would change her dress. That would require her going up stairs.  As for Lizzie being out of the room at that exact time it reminds me of an Abbot & Costello routine where one leaves the room just as the other enters and they don't see each other.  And then one comes back in and the other leaves, again not seeing each other. Possible I guess but VERY convenient.

***Doesn't Lizzie say at the Inquest that the last time she saw Abby was in the dining room?  Abby says she's going out, Lizzie goes down to the cellar, and presumes Abby went out during that time?***

i think you've got part of the whole there, but if you read this particular part of the Q&A (and it extends into the next day) -- you'll see how lizzie tries her best to think of just how it could be that she could miss abby going or coming, etc.....untill she has to use the note as the explanation.  the next day lizzie starts right out saying that abby had told her about the note and when she did not see her, she assumed abby had gone out (which would have been the best answer in the first place but lizzie resisted it, then it comes a bit too late and too laboriously).  also, it is particularly this portion of her inquest that makes me think she did not expect to be so meticulously questioned.  this is major lizzie screw-up.  in fact, lizzie's first answer to the question about whether she had heard about a note (knowlton asks it, he already had heard of it, i guess from bridget) is NO.  then he simply repeats the question.

That's true, Harry.  It does come down to who you believe.  I'm in a 'give Lizzie a break' mood today, I guess. 

I've had trouble with Fleet's testimony before ... stemming initially from the Mullaly and the hatchet handle incident, I guess.  Which, of course, is a classic case of 'who do you believe'. 

At one point, I went over Fleet's trial testimony and compared it with his Prelim. testimony and there are enough variations between the two to suggest it may be possible he misremembered exactly what Lizzie said that morning.  He's consistent in his claim that Lizzie said she saw Abby in the guestroom around 9 that morning.  The inconsistencies in his testimony have more to do with who he saw at the house.  At the preliminary hearing, he sees Gillen and Sawyer when he first arrives.  Then at trial, this becomes Manning and Medley.  At the prelim. he finds Mullaly and Doherty in the cellar -- but at trial it's Mullaly and Devine.  His aural memory might be better than his visual memory, though -- who knows?

I guess I was mainly quibbling about: "Lizzie claims to have seen Abby .. . in the guestroom". Because it's Fleet who claims that -- not Lizzie. BTW Lizzie feels the same way you do about Abby changing her dress. She suggests it -- but Abby says the one she has on is good enough.  (If we believe Lizzie, of course.) 

Haulover, I know you’re steeped in Lizzie's inquest testimony so I'm reluctant to even venture into that area.  I agree that Lizzie is all over the block with suggestions as to how she could miss Abby's coming and goings.  But I'm one of those who cling to the theory that shock and morphine could cause a lot of her meandering.

I also think we rely far too much on Bridget and Lizzie's recollections as to the timing of the morning.  I think so many days were like so many other days for those two that they could easily be confused as to when things happened during the mundane part of August 4.  At trial Bridget slips into telling what "generally" or "usually" happened, rather than what actually happened on that day.  Here’s one example of a flaw in her time frame on the day of the murders.  Remember Bridget claims Abby didn't ask her to do the windows until around 9 a.m.?  But, if that's true, how could Morse have heard these instructions?  He'd left before that.  It seems more likely that Morse was correct on this point -- and that Abby did ask Bridget at breakfast-time.

Both Bridget and Lizzie agree that the last time they saw Abby alive was in the dining room around 9 a.m.  Could it be possible that Lizzie had it right when she said that when she came down the breakfast things were all cleared up?  Bridget says she was cleaning up the kitchen between 9 and 9:30 – but maybe she had it wrong and she was actually finished in the kitchen around the time Lizzie came down.  Then each had a conversation with Abby as she dusted the dining room. Lizzie went down to the cellar, Bridget went outside to get the window washing gear, and Abby went upstairs with the pillow shams to meet her maker.

Of course this isn’t really my theory of what happened.  I’m just playing the 'what if we believe Lizzie' game for the moment. 

Original" Version of First Witness Statements"

  
     
Williams, Joyce G., J. Eric Smithburn, and Jeanne M. Peterson. Lizzie Borden: A Case Book of Family and Crime in the 1890s. Bloomington, IN: T.I.S. Publications Division, 1980.
pg. 18+ :

"Assistant Marshal Fleet's Notes of His Interview with Lizzie Borden, Bridget Sullivan, and John Morse"

"The only known records of the police investigations in these early days are the handwritten notes of Assistant Marshal John Fleet.  He recorded his questioning of Lizzie, Bridget, and Uncle John on the day of the murders.  Fleet's manuscript is printer [sic] here just as written, including spelling and punctuation errors and his abbreviations.  Illegible manuscript is indicated by ____.

Source:  Courtesy of Edward Sullivan."

"Aug. 4, 1892.  Went to the Borden house 2nd St., at about between 11:45 & 12M.  found Mr. Borden dead on the lounge.  Head badly cut.  Dr. Dolan standing over him.  Went up stairs, to found Mrs. Borden.  Dead on the Floor betw bed and dressing case.  Head badly smashed face downward.  Saw Lizzie A. Borden in bedroom on same floor.  Was sitting with Minister Buck on lounge asked her what she knew of these murders.  She said that she knew nothing further than her father came in about 10-30 or 10-45 and that he seemed to be quite feible and she helped him and advised him to lay down on the lounge which he did.  I was ironing handk in the Dining room which I left and went in the barn upstairs and remained there for half an hour, Bridget had gone up stairs, and when I came back I found father dead on the lounge, and went to the back stair and called Bridget_____down stairs told her that someone had killed father and told her to get Dr. Bowen.  Did you see anyone around here?    No.  I haven't seen anyone in the house or yard.  Who is this Mr. Morse?  he is my uncle he came here last night and slept here but went away before 9 o'clock, a.m. and did not get back until after the murder.  He could not know any thing about the murder.  Have you any idea who could have done this?  No I do not know that  my father had had trouble with anyone, but about 2 weeks ago a man called and they had some talk about a shop and father told him he could not have it for that purpose.  Man talked as though he was angry.  didn't know who he was did not see him, could not tell all that he said.  Man came here this morning about nine o'clock, I think he wanted to hire a store talked English did not see him, heard father shut the door and think the man went away.

Saw Lizzie 2 hours later, wanted to search her room, Dr. Bowen was in.  She did not want to be bothered, would make her sick, told her that I must search on account of the murders, otherwise should not be doing my duty, She then allowed the search to go on.  Could not find anything in the room which would show blood and found no Instruments that had been used for murder.  She said that it was impossible for any o: to get in or throw anything in her room because she always kept it locked.  Lizzie said that she had not seen Mrs. Borden since about 9 o'clock She thought
_____Bedroom when she was _______.

Thanks, Kat. It would be great to know exactly what was in those blanks.  'Nancy' posted earlier that she had a copy of Fleet's original handwritten notes.  I'd love to see those.

I'm just becoming aware of how little we heard from Rev. Buck.  He was one of the first people on the scene.  Fleet has him sitting beside Lizzie in her bedroom within an hour of the murders. He also visited Lizzie every day in the Central Police Station. I bet he formed some interesting opinions.

As far as I can tell, Fleet and Medley are the only two who mention his presence on the morning of the murders. 

In Fleet's notes, Lizzie's account is so spare that one wonders whether Fleet was just making a quick preliminary survey of the scene (thus not inviting elaboration), or whether Lizzie was deliberately giving herself plenty of room to fill in believable details later.  As for the inconsistencies, the frustrating part is that the innocent and the guilty (IF guilty) parties are equally inconsistent. I, for one, can have my memory fail me in telling the truth, so I might report a conversation or event in various ways, depending on how much time I have, how tired I am, etc.  Therefore, the investigators' remarks can be as fault as the remarks of the investigated.  Just a thought.

I think Fleet was a bit of a weak link and I somehow don't think he was particularly observant.
It could be for certain reasons you have mentioned.
Maybe not too much experience in a potentially high-profile case.
I understand the police back then were not exactly fully trained in the sense we think of now.

all of this, to me, points to innocent for Lizzie because if she
planned out this elaborate perfect murder, she would have had her
story all planned out.  The flub ups and memory lapses are just
normal for something that happened on an ordinary day, we just don't
remember every little thing that happened and what everyone was wearing.   Lets see, if my boss was murdered today and the police asked me what a coworker was wearing....forget it, I absolutely don't
remember.  And what was I doing at exactly 7AM? Uh I think I was
feeding the dog or maybe putting out the trash.  Who remembers the
mundane daily stuff in such detail and timing? 
When Lizzie went to the barn in her lazy, slow manner, eating a few
pears, staring out the window, taking her sweet time looking around...
who knew it would be such a critical time, did she????

Diana, Lizzie had Rev. Buck totally snowed.  Here he is quoted from The Sourcebook in an interview --

The Rev. E. A. Buck speaking of the result of the hearing, said:  "I have been this girl's spiritual counsellor for 20 years, and have always esteemed her highly, and I have to say that my intercourse with her since this affair has tended to raise her infinitely in that esteem.  She is as innocent as the day she was born.

Bridget recalled the clothes NOt worn and so did Alice.  I think that is interesting in itself.
If you were asked did your co-worker wear that red plaid skirt today which she often wears, I think you might be able to answer.
Especially if her head is on your shoulder and you are sitting comforting her.

We really have 2 Lizzies.
We have a Legend Lizzie who mistreated cats and shoplifted and disliked her stepmother and killed her parents.
And we have a lazy miss who works at the Church, has a few friends who are loyal who she fishs with and she knows nothing, saw nothing heard a little something which might be a groan or a scraping sound.  (They don't sound the same) and disliked her stepmother and let everyone know that.
She is there and that's a suspect in anybodies book.

The thing is, the Legend Lizzie is just like a profile of a killer in the FBI's book and they didn't have that back then, psychological profiles, but they had some common sense,

(Message last edited Dec-18th-03  11:45 PM.)

I agree with you, Kat, about the profile and the circumstantial evidence which is about as strong as Thoreau's trout in the milk analogy, but I also agree with nj's remark about memory.  I think that particularly if I'd been holding a sobbing (or stony, but maybe in shock) friend, the last thing I would remember was what she had on. My husband is in the next room, and I honestly can't think what he has on.  It's not that I ignore him; it's that I DON'T. I pay attention to his words and his facial expressions and shows of affection--not which shirt he has on.  The testimony of the witnesses interests me, but seems the least consequential part of the case.  One of Roughead's cases (I'm tired and can't think which) points out the perils of eye witness testimony. I'll try to get back on that tomorrow when I'm sharper.

Lyddie

For some reason my memory is better than that.  I can recall what my sister wore Wednesday night and what my girlfriend wore the second-to-the-last time I saw her.
Alice had Lizzie's head on her shoulder.  She may say she is no good at remembering everyday outfits or hats of the girls, but she did become a sewing teacher and I think she was a bit more observant than she let on.
She sure recognized the dress Lizzie was about to burn Sunday, after not seeing it since the spring.
I think it's possible Alice took in more than she first realized.
I guess everyone has diferent powers of observation.
Bridget knows the Borden girls clothes and I would belive her above all.

Maybe Lizzie did make up a *temporary* dress from the pattern she bought in New Bedford and that would be as close as possible to her other outfits.  She makes a dress while Emma is away, uses it in the killings, destroys it , no one recognizes it exactly, and lo & behold there are still 8 blue dresses of Lizzie's when Emma counts her inventory.--a theory

[edit]
I think I should add, because it probably contributes to my personal opinion as to what she observed, that Alice did not know until Morse arrived (around 11:45) that there had been murder done.  She assisted Lizzie while believing the elder folks were worse from sickness and then eventually received the impression there had been a death.  Just that at first, Alice was not in shock or especially freaked because she had been warned the night before.

(Message last edited Dec-19th-03  2:47 AM.)

The FALLACY in the "Lizzie did it" believers is they believe there were no others present. AR Brown solved this case by simply putting WS Borden there, and all the discrepancies fell into place (like any good theory - see the Copernician and Gallileo theories about the earth revolving about the sun, not the reverse).

Any theory that explains the inconsistencies is likely to be the true one, like finding a trout in the milk.

Given the less than felicitous relations between Abby and Lizzie, that may very well be true. Years ago, when my parents went visiting, I rarely asked who it was (as I remember it). Did you?

If Lizze was on the throne in the basement (back of house), she would not likely of heard anything on the front second floor. Don't forget the noise (clip-clop of hooves) from the busy street outdoors, or the noise from the stone masons out back.

That is why it can be wrong to mereley consider the house in itself.

Yes, a well-planned murder would have well-planned excuses or cover story. The discrepancies between Bridget and Lizzie show no collusion there!

Also the fact that Uncle John had a perfect alibi and remembered
everything in detail about his actions that morning.   Maybe he was
more observant than most, or maybe he made it a point to remember
the street car number and every little thing because he knew he would
be asked? 

Lizzie being a grown girl with a supposed Christian character as well, might be expected to show a little concern about a sick call, don't you think?
She was a member of the fruit & flower mission which visits the sick, for gosh sakes!  He's right, you'd think Lizzie would at least ask, if she truly cared about her community.

I still find it odd that if Abby did indeed get a note for a sick call that she didn't tell Lizzie who it was.  According to Bridget's testimony, Abby usually tells her when she is going out and where, why not tell Lizzie?

And what exactly is required of Abby during a sick call?  Is it a social call to someone who is bedridden so they don't feel out of the loop?  Is Abby expected to nurse this person?  Feed them chicken broth, change their sheets, etc, etc?  If so, then I have a problem with Lizzie's timeline she gives to this note.  From her Inquest testimony, Lizzie speaks to Abby around 9:00, she says Abby has a note for somebody who is sick and will get the dinner on the way, meat according to Lizzie.  Bridget says its to be the mutton again with potatoes in the soup. 

Abby has to go back upstairs, finish with the pillow slips on the guestroom bed, get her hat and possibly something to bring to this sick person, go to the butchers, travel to this sick person's home.  Tend to them or visit with them and then, get home in time for Bridget to cook this meat, thats been sitting out in the summer heat, in time for dinner (lunch).  Could Abby have accomplished all that within about 2 hours time?  Have the meat home by 11:00 at the latest to be ready by 12:00 which I assume is the Borden's normal dinner time. 

Susan, from my newfound knowledge of life in late 1800 from the
diaries, a sick call was required whenever you heard of someone
down.  You just brought a jar of pickles or jam or strawberries, whatever and left it, just a gesture.  You didn't see the "sick"
person or visted, just left your name.  I wonder if Abby really
went on a "sick call" what she brought?  (old Mutton ugh) 

Thanks, NJ.  I did a search on the internet and couldn't find anything about Victorian sick call protocol, what was expected from the lady who made the sick call, etc.  Yes, I kind of gathered that you were supposed to bring something from home, usually a foodstuff for the sick person, but, was there ever instances where you visited the sick person themselves or you just dropped off your offering to the household.  Because if all Abby was required to do was bring a little something, why would she get a note summoning her specifically? 

Maybe I'm thinking too modern?  If a friend of mine called and said they were sick, I would bring over some soup, maybe some ginger ale if they felt nauseous.  Plump up their pillows or do a little light cleaning, whatever they needed help with.  And sit and talk with them if they were up to it, I'd probably be there for awhile with them.  Thats why I'm so curious what was expected of Abby's sick call. 

Thanks for that quote from the Reverend, Tina-Kate. 

Arnold R Brown's book pointed out that Uncle John had only a detailed knowledge of his return to the house. As if he KNEW what happened and needed an alibi. I think JVM convinced Lizzie to keep quiet about WSB "to save the family's reputation" (and JVM's role in bringing WSB to a secret meeting): Innocently, or as part of a plot?

I think the diary is interesting but I also think along the lines of Susan.  If a note came specifically for Abby from someone, it would seem to be requiring something of her specifically.  If it was a family member Abby may be expected to stay the day and help an invalid to the bedpan or make the dinner that day for the person's family.
A note *going 'round* that someone is sick, might bring out the support and foodstuffs you mention, of interested persons, nj.

Susan, you opined that if Abby did get a note that she planned on getting the meat while she was out.  Did that sound to you like she was planning to get the meat before she went on the sick call?  Could it as well have been jumbled together where we don't know the order of her errands?  What do you think?

I was going by Lizzie's wording in her Inquest, Abby was going to go on her sick call and get the meat on the way.  It could mean on Abby's trip back, but, to me it sounds like Lizzie is saying that on her way over to the sick person's home she will get the meat.  And yes, I suppose that if Abby was to be at the sick call for awhile, she could probably have borrowed the person's icebox.

Lizzie told Bridget that the sick call must be in town, which I assume meant that Abby would walk to where ever she had to go, could she have accomplished all this in the 2 hours time that Lizzie allotted her?  I think most of this would have depended on the nature of the sick call, hence my being curious as to what would have been required or expected of Abby on a sick call.  Lizzie makes no mention of Abby saying that she will bring something to this sick person, so I'm still of the mind that she was going to nurse them. 

when knowlton forces lizzie, twice, to "give him all that conversation." -- lizzie's responses sound like a labored, incoherent listing.  that's one other particular to examine in the inquest -- is this a memory of an actual conversation?