Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden Topic Name: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?  

1. "What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by deafandsmart on Mar-28th-04 at 12:59 PM

ok...I've been looking forever for the two questions my teacher wants me to answer...what is prussic acid and how much will kill two human adults?  Without these answers, I don't have a paper.

(Message last edited Mar-28th-04  1:01 PM.)


2. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by doug65oh on Mar-28th-04 at 1:30 PM
In response to Message #1.

http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topics/Pastures/Species/Grasses/Animal_issues/Prussic_Preventing.html

Prussic acid is perhaps better known today as hydrogen cyanate. The above article deals with prevention of prussic poisoning in livestock, but... I'll see what else I can find. I'd honestly think though that a very small amount would be needed to kill a human.

Doug


3. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by deafandsmart on Mar-28th-04 at 1:47 PM
In response to Message #2.

I can figure that much..but somewhere I heard only one teaspoon is needed to kill a human being.  I just want to make sure that I have the right information before putting into my report.  I don't want to put false information on it.  I could get a bad grade on it if I did.


4. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by doug65oh on Mar-28th-04 at 1:48 PM
In response to Message #2.

Whoops... I'll see if I can find a better site than that one. Ah here's one...
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/rtecs/mw682428.html

Everything you ever wanted to know about prussic acid, from the looks of it

Doug


5. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by doug65oh on Mar-28th-04 at 1:50 PM
In response to Message #4.

That CDC site should have everything you need, deafandmart


Doug


6. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by deafandsmart on Mar-28th-04 at 1:53 PM
In response to Message #4.

hehehe.  It looks like you got what i needed!  My boyfriend told me to go to www.forensic.com. i found nothing.


7. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by deafandsmart on Mar-28th-04 at 2:00 PM
In response to Message #5.

lowest published lethal dose: 570 µg/kg 

Hmmm I wonder what this means...what's it equal to as well...  This is orally, mind you, because I'm assuming that this would have been the dose needed if put in their food and consumed.


8. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by Kat on Mar-28th-04 at 11:11 PM
In response to Message #7.

You can check the trial, pages start 1271, I believe?  Charles Lawton, Henry Tillson 1281, Nathanial Hathaway 1285 and Dr. Dolan pages 1299, thru Henry Tillson, recalled 1302.

They testified about prussic acid and it's uses.  The jury was not in the room for this testimony.


9. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by doug65oh on Mar-28th-04 at 11:29 PM
In response to Message #7.

lowest published lethal dose: 570 µg/kg 

Hmmm I wonder what this means...what's it equal to as well... 

I'm a little rusty at chemistry, but as I remember that measurement is micrograms - 570 µg of prussic acid per kg.

Good grief...

http://www.seagrant.umn.edu/water/report/helpfulinformation/concentrations.pdf

There ya go, try that out - the measurement is given there
(Buckle yourself in too, because you might fall out of your chair when you see just how small a microgram is )

Doug

(Message last edited Mar-28th-04  11:30 PM.)


10. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by Raymond on Mar-29th-04 at 11:47 AM
In response to Message #7.

That is 570 micrograms per kilogram (2.2 lbs) of body weight.
That is VERY, VERY poisonous. Don't ever fool with it.

It was the ingredient in "L-pills" that British SOE gave to their agents in Nazi-occupied Europe. If caught, they would be killed anyway.
...
That is about one milligram for every five pounds of body weight.

(Message last edited Mar-29th-04  2:22 PM.)


11. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by lydiapinkham on Mar-29th-04 at 9:37 PM
In response to Message #2.

I've also seen it listed as hydrocyanic acid.  Nastily enough it turns up on websites about the Holocaust, because the gaseous form is what they used in the concentration camps.  I wanted to find what possible good use it could be put to.  I did find it could be used on vermin in livestock, but you'd have to be careful that they'd be unable to lick the stuff off.  It could kill nits, but is never recommended for use on fur--probably because it might irritate the skin.
The operative part of the name is "cyanic," as in cyanide.  Same family, same lethal and immediate effect from miniscule amount.  It is apparently contained in nature:  believe it or not, massive quantities of lima beans or almonds could give you enogh to show some signs of poisoning.  (I always wondered why cyanide smelled of bitter almonds. . . .)
One more thing, if the Bordens were poisoned, it was not by prussic acid.  They would have been thrashing around in spasms on the floor, not just puking their guts up.

--Lyddie

(Message last edited Mar-29th-04  9:45 PM.)


12. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by theebmonique on Mar-29th-04 at 10:11 PM
In response to Message #11.

Isn't that very similar to what they used in prison gas chambers to execute condemed prisoners ?

Tracy...


13. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by deafandsmart on Mar-30th-04 at 8:44 AM
In response to Message #9.

hehehe.  Ok now thanks to doug, I've got the perfect information...but how much wud lizzie be able to buy with just ten cents??? now remmy..ten cents was a lot of money back then in 1892!  Then that cud answer my teacher's quesion.  I think i will print this piece out that dough put up for me and use it for my paper as an attachment.  You guys are great!  Thanks for all of your help so far!


14. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by MarkHinton63 on Mar-30th-04 at 10:29 AM
In response to Message #13.

Hi, DeafandSmart. And a much belated welcome.

Does anyone know - outside of vomiting - what the symtoms of arsenic poisoning is? Frank Spering's LIZZIE alleges that at first Lizzie tried to poison Andrew and Abby by arsenic. I also reed an article on the website making a similar allegation. 


15. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by Harry on Mar-30th-04 at 10:46 AM
In response to Message #13.

Ten cents would be worth roughly two dollars in todays money. Slightly less.

The poison has always raised an interesting question.  If Lizzie had been successful in purchasing and using the poison would she have been more likely to have been found guilty?


16. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by doug65oh on Mar-30th-04 at 12:50 PM
In response to Message #14.

Some symptoms of arsenic poisoning by ingestion:
Abdominal pain. Burning sensation in the throat and chest. Diarrhoea. Nausea. Shock or collapse. Unconsciousness. Vomiting.

http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC35165

Doug


17. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by deafandsmart on Mar-30th-04 at 2:15 PM
In response to Message #14.

hey.  I did some research on this part.  Arsenic will have the vomiting, and bone aching flu like symptoms.  over time it will mimic other chronic illnesses like ms and stuff and eventually there will be death.  the pain is mostly in the legs and the feet. 


18. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by deafandsmart on Mar-30th-04 at 2:16 PM
In response to Message #15.

nice question...I don't think so.  I think she would have been found not guilty and no evidence let alone as much as we have now (slim to none).


19. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by doug65oh on Mar-30th-04 at 3:41 PM
In response to Message #15.

Great question Harry!

A successful purchase of prussic acid on the 3rd of August, coupled with the known "houshold symptoms" of that evening/overnight *should* have been enough evidence (albeit circumstantial) to convict Lizzie - even against the mindset of the day.

Several years earlier, Mary Surratt was convicted (and hanged) on what might today be considered lesser evidence. Granted, the earlier case was quite different in circumstance, but it's hard not to think of that case at least once in awhlie when you look at the Borden case.



Doug

(Message last edited Mar-30th-04  3:46 PM.)


20. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by deafandsmart on Mar-30th-04 at 5:17 PM
In response to Message #19.

>Great question Harry!
>
>A successful purchase of prussic acid on the 3rd of August,
>coupled with the known "houshold symptoms" of that
>evening/overnight *should* have been enough evidence (albeit
>circumstantial) to convict Lizzie - even against the mindset
>of the day.

>
>Several years earlier, Mary Surratt was convicted (and
>hanged) on what might today be considered lesser evidence.
>Granted, the earlier case was quite different in
>circumstance, but it's hard not to think of that case at
>least once in awhlie when you look at the Borden case.

>
>
>
>Doug

Well, then...Lizzie was the one who did it.  It proves that she wanted them dead in the first place!


21. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by doug65oh on Mar-30th-04 at 5:24 PM
In response to Message #20.

It does??

Doug


22. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by doug65oh on Mar-30th-04 at 5:44 PM
In response to Message #21.

Sorry about that deafandsmart - couldn't resist The purportedly prevented purchase of prussic from Bence is only one element, which by itself doesn't mean much; it's a part of the larger puzzle picture, you might say. Lizzie could (as she claimed) have had bugs in her cape...


Doug


23. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by deafandsmart on Mar-30th-04 at 6:59 PM
In response to Message #22.

yes...to me that still looks like she's guilty anyways on her part.  I still don't understand why she would need purssic acid and just a small amount for the killing.  Maybe she figured she wouldn't be accused if she poisoned them, since there would be no traces of evidence.  besides the poison.


24. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by doug65oh on Mar-30th-04 at 7:34 PM
In response to Message #23.

Trial, Pg 1019
Testimony of Doctor Wood

Q. And what quantity of prussic acid is sufficient to cause the death of a human being?
A. Any solution of prussic acid which contains one grain of acid---any solution which contains one grain of acid is a fatal dose. That is, it is less than

Pg. 1020

a teaspoonful of the solution which is ordinarily used in the drugstores, which is a two per cent solution.

***
There was apparently a method to test for prussic acid, but I've just lost the page reference where it's mentioned. It's in the - here it is, at page 995:

Q. That stomach had not been opened?
A. That stomach had not been opened. It was in the same external condition as the stomach of Mrs. Borden. Both of those contents of the stomachs were immediately tested for prussic acid, because prussic acid, being a volatile acid, it is necessary to make an
immediate test for it, as it would very shortly after its exposure to the air escape, and escape detection therefore. Therefore those were both tested for prussic acid, with a negative result. Afterwards they were analyzed in the regular way for the irritant poisons, with also a negative result.

Just prior to that, at page 994 is mentioned that the milk was tested also, with no trace of any poisons:

Q. In neither?
A. The milk apparently, I should say, so far as
Page 995
I could determine from seeing it in the bottle, was apparently in good condition, but no regular sanitary analysis of it could be made; it was so old at the time I received it.



Doug


25. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by Raymond on Mar-30th-04 at 8:06 PM
In response to Message #22.

Wasn't there some question about it being Lizzie at that drugstore?
Somebody said an undercover police agent was testing the new law?
THAT would be a good reason to disallow the testimony if the judges knew that this agent resembled Lizzie.


26. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by lydiapinkham on Mar-30th-04 at 8:06 PM
In response to Message #14.

The only problem with arsenic is that, in high quantities, arsenic would have kept the Bordens in bed with highly obvious cramping, etc.  Gradual poisoning would leave wite streaks in the fingernails and traces in the hair.  She might have tried just the once with an insufficient dose, then grown impatient, but that's about the only way it would work.  The doctors checked for arsenic and found none of the traces of gradual poisoning.

--Lyddie


27. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by lydiapinkham on Mar-30th-04 at 8:13 PM
In response to Message #23.

One suggestion in Fritz' article in the 1st Hatchet was that she might have attempted to buy it for herself as a painless method of suicide in case the plan went wrong.

--Lyddie


28. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by Raymond on Mar-30th-04 at 8:19 PM
In response to Message #27.

Suicide is not "painless" particularly with a fast-acting poison (Cleoptatra used an asp, after testing it). Cyanide prevents the blood from carrying oxygen; you in effect are strangled.
Strychnine is even worse, as per "Study in Scarlet"?


29. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by lydiapinkham on Mar-30th-04 at 8:23 PM
In response to Message #24.

Doug, did you find any mention of why pharmacies carried prussic acid? The only use I could track down online was modern use for livestock and, of course, the nasty Nazi application.  Did farmers use itin the stables then? 

I did find a site some time back that had photos of the bottles.  They were octagonally shaped, as I recall, to indicate poison.  (Purportedly, to protect the illiterate, but maybe to warn the unwary even if the label fell off.  It would also be nice for the blind.  A very simple and effective protection so long as the stuff stayed in its original container.)

--Lyddie


30. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by doug65oh on Mar-30th-04 at 9:00 PM
In response to Message #29.

I haven't found anything yet to indicate that would confirm or refute prussic acid used as a pesticide by late-Victorian era farmers. That's about the only practical application that would make sense outside a lab, though. That's some nasty stuff for sure!


Doug


31. "Re: What is prussic acid and how much can kill two adults?"
Posted by Kat on Mar-31st-04 at 1:29 AM
In response to Message #24.

The milk, however, was not Tuesday's milk and probably useless to test.

They did find, in the testimonies I cited earlier, that it could be used as an insecticide.  In an experiment the night before , Hathaway, an analytical chemist, did find that prussic acid killed insects.
However, he was of the belief that poisons should not be available to any lay person, especially prussic acid:  it is volatile according to the temperature, has too much strength, and has a deadly vapor to the person using it and anyone else near.