Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden Topic Name: Don't be pushy Abby  

1. "Don't be pushy Abby"
Posted by harry on May-20th-03 at 12:56 PM

Susan, a while back raised an interesting point about a door being pushed. In Robinson's closing argument (page 1649) that word "push" comes up again. Robinson's arguing that the door could have been closed when Lizzie went up and down the stairs.

"As you know about the habits of the family in which she lived, the spare room was closed up practically. Mrs. Borden had gone there to make the bed, and after she had left it all right undoubtedly she would push to the door. The door was pushed to, at any rate. There is no evidence it was wide open."

I just checked the floor plan of the second floor and the door to the guest room opened into the room. You can't close it from the landing by pushing it. It must be pulled toward you.

I realize that Robinson is just speculating but it's interesting in that he uses the word "push" to close the door.  Maybe the term meant something different in the 1890's.


2. "Re: Don't be pushy Abby"
Posted by rays on May-20th-03 at 3:38 PM
In response to Message #1.

Perhaps the phrase "pushed to" means "to close" the door. It was the custom in past days to keep unused rooms closed up.


3. "Re: Don't be pushy Abby"
Posted by diana on May-20th-03 at 3:42 PM
In response to Message #1.

That is a good point for speculation, Harry.  Here's my take for what it's worth.

Robinson is using the words "pushed to" as an indication that the door was closed.  Or in reference to closing the door, at any rate.  I can see where "pushed to" (as in pushed together) might convey a juxtaposition of the door and the door frame when the door is closed. Yet Lizzie's statement uses pushed in reference to opening the door.

I'm staying with some experimental thoughts we had earlier on the forum -- I think Susan led us there? That when a door that opens into a room is already partially open -- the tendency is to push on the door to open it wider.  I just tried this again on the door that opens into the room I'm in. It was ajar -- and to exit the room -- my natural impulse is to simply push on the door rather than use the handle to pull it open further.


4. "Re: Don't be pushy Abby"
Posted by Kat on May-20th-03 at 8:49 PM
In response to Message #3.

You know, I have a laundry room door, which every time I open, I think of this very question.
I don't know why THAT door- maybe because I rarely use that door knob.
I am always pulling it toward me by it's edge, when I exit the laundry room.
So I stop and ask myself, "am I pushing this or pulling this?" and my 21st century mind says I am pulling it.

This is my explanation to Lizzie who is frustrating, not you, Diana:
That's an opposite.  There is a word for push and a word for pull.
Here's a silly notion I jiust had:  What would Lizzie call a rope pull?  A rope push?

Anyway, you have a point Diana, in the difference in  describing opening and closing.  Drat that Lizzie vernacular.

Thanks for bringing this up again, Har.  It's never far from my mind since Susan spyed it...
MORE interpretations, anyone?


5. "Re: Don't be pushy Abby"
Posted by Susan on May-20th-03 at 9:37 PM
In response to Message #1.

Thats an interesting find, Harry, another "push".  What I'm getting from the way Robinson says "push to the door" is that he may possibly mean that Abby pushed the door shut, but, not all the way, she didn't latch the door.  So, in order to open it, one would just have to push it open as opposed to unlatch the door handle.  I guess he speculated that the guest room door opened out in order to accomplish this.

I get this from his statement, "There is no evidence it was wide open."  It sounds as though the door was partially open or partially closed, depending on how you look at it.  But, enough that Lizzie walking from her room to the stairs couldn't see into the room as she went by.  Hmmm, I guess opening a door that is "pushed to" would be to "push fro"? 


6. "Re: Don't be pushy Abby"
Posted by augusta on May-25th-03 at 2:26 PM
In response to Message #5.

I don't think Robinson knew, or remembered if he visited the house, which way the door pushed. 

There was no evidence that the door was wide open???  What about when Bridget and Mrs. Churchill went upstairs and discovered Abby? 

I guess he was trying to say in their frenzied state of discovering Mrs. Borden, they didn't think to get out a measuring tape and see exactly how far the door was opened when they saw her laying there. 

Lawyers don't have to be accurate in what they say.  If they did, the good ones wouldn't win as many times as they do. 


7. "Re: Don't be pushy Abby"
Posted by Susan on May-25th-03 at 6:27 PM
In response to Message #6.

Yes, I hear you, Augusta.  Robinson was going by Lizzie's testimony alone that the guest room door had been "shut to" earlier in the morning when she brought up her clean clothes to her room and basted on that piece of tape.  It was definitely open when Bridget and Mrs. Churchill came up the stairs.  Its just Lizzie's word that the door was shut at all that day.  Why would a killer shut the door for part of the day only to reopen it later when Andrew still needed to be dispatched as yet.  They risked early discovery of Abby's corpse. 


8. "Re: Don't be pushy Abby"
Posted by rays on May-27th-03 at 12:25 PM
In response to Message #1.

I am not going to comment on that phrase and its meaning 110 years ago. I will tell you that the old style locks from that period (?) had a little lever on them that would retract the bolt so a door could be shut but then pushed open.

I often wondered why they did that way. Ever carry something then stop to put it down to open a door?


9. "Re: Don't be pushy Abby"
Posted by Kat on May-27th-03 at 10:48 PM
In response to Message #7.

I had a querry but didn't know where to put it.  Since we are talking here about Lizzie going upstairs and basting her sleeve or what-ever, I'd like to bring up the *fact*, and ask opinion, on the issue of Bridget's doing the laundry on Monday, and Tuesday and finishing the ironing etc.  This caused Lizzie to take her clean clothes upstairs sometime Thursday.
What Bridget says, which is odd, is that she left the clean clothes on the kitchen table  for the elder Borden's to take up, and for the girls to take up.
Then Bridget says Lizzie must have taken both piles of clothes up, hers AND Emma's, because she is asked what she meant by Emma's taking her clothes up.  She is asked, *Wasn't Emma gone?  How could she take her clothes up?*
So that is Odd #1.  Odd #2 is that Bridget is just now doing Emma's laundry,  on Monday August 1st, when Emma had left on the 21st of July, 12 days earlier, plus it wasn't known when Emma would return.


(Message last edited May-27th-03  10:54 PM.)


10. "Re: Don't be pushy Abby"
Posted by Susan on May-27th-03 at 11:00 PM
In response to Message #9.

Just a thought to Odd #2, perhaps Bridget did the laundry in shifts?  One Monday she would do the whites, the next week the colors?  Since all that laundry was done by hand (Bridget's), 4 people's clothes, plus possibly her own, could make alot of laundry.  And think of those skirts and petticoats alone, all that material to scrub or agitate by hand.  Just an idea that came to me. 


11. "Re: Don't be pushy Abby"
Posted by Kat on May-27th-03 at 11:11 PM
In response to Message #10.

Yes, that could be because I also see by my calandar that there were 2 Monday wash's since Emma left, on the 25th and the 1st.

She also says Mr. Borden takes/took ? the elder Borden's wash up.  Doesn't mention Abby.
That's a tid-bit to know Andrew would take his clean clothes upstairs himself...possibly putting them away.

PS:  I bet they didn't wash those huge dresses too often!


12. "Re: Don't be pushy Abby"
Posted by Susan on May-28th-03 at 12:20 AM
In response to Message #11.

Also from Bridget is an interesting statement in her Preliminary testimony that Andrew himself "took in the clothes line".  I don't know if Bridget means that Andrew took in the dry clothes or if he actually took in the rope that the clothes were hung on to dry, never did quite understand that statement?

Yes, I would agree about those skirts or dresses with trains possibly not getting washed all that often, but, especially if it was a street dress how filthy that would be?  But, I do think Abby's, Lizzie's and Emma's house dresses would need to be washed often as they were worn day in and out.  Having gone as Lizzie one Halloween I can tell you, the skirt and the petticoat where they touched the floor in the back were filthy from one evening of wearing.  I'm sure Edisto has some info on this with the dresses she wears, how often she needs to clean them. 


13. "Re: Don't be pushy Abby"
Posted by Kat on May-28th-03 at 12:54 AM
In response to Message #12.

I wonder if they had a fab way of just cleaning the hems and maybe under the arms?
I think if they were parsimonious, and had a tear, they just darned over it with an applicae, like a fancy patch of flowers or something, back then?


14. "Re: Don't be pushy Abby"
Posted by rays on May-28th-03 at 4:51 PM
In response to Message #12.

Trust thrifty Andy to not leave out the clothesline where it might be stolen. Or the birds decorate it!
...
I once read that "street dresses" went down the ankle, but "house dresses" touched the (clean?) floor. Remember, most streets were not paved, unless it was with horse poop. "The streets of America are paved with gold." What a sense of humor!

(Message last edited May-28th-03  4:53 PM.)


15. "Re: Don't be pushy Abby"
Posted by rays on May-28th-03 at 4:55 PM
In response to Message #9.

According to AR Brown (or ?), Bridget did the laundry then left it piled on the DR table. Each then selected their own. Bridget the servant was not allowed on the second floor. (And I'm sure she was glad!)


16. "Re: Don't be pushy Abby"
Posted by Carol on May-28th-03 at 4:59 PM
In response to Message #7.

"Why would a killer shut the door for part of the day only to reopen it later when Andrew still needed to be dispatched as yet.  They risked early discovery of Abby's corpse."

The killer was inside the guest room with the door not open after killing Abby to conceal themselves but the door needed to be opened in order for them to get out.  After leaving that room the killer's objective was to kill Andrew downstairs and leave the house immediately. Andrew wouldn't have been going upstairs to the guest room at any point in the morning. Lizzie didn't observe the corpse upstairs.  Who else would have been around to find Abby's body at that point I wonder.  At the time the killer left the guest room I doubt it mattered much to them when Abby's body was discovered.  As long as the killer was gone from the house there was no need for the killer to stop and shut the guest room door. 


17. "Re: Don't be pushy Abby"
Posted by Edisto on May-28th-03 at 5:10 PM
In response to Message #15.

Bridget wasn't allowed on the second floor?  Can you give us a source for that tidbit?  I know she didn't clean the bedrooms on that floor, but she seemed to know her way around when it was time to get a sheet to cover Andrew's body, for example.


18. "Re: Don't be pushy Abby"
Posted by augusta on May-28th-03 at 6:00 PM
In response to Message #17.

I think Bridget's testimony on not going upstairs is in the first part of the preliminary hearing. 

You're right, Edisto.  She knew right where to go to get the sheet, and even asked HOW MANY she should get, which some think is evidence that she knew beforehand of Abby's death.  I think she was rattled and just didn't know how many Dr. Bowen wanted to use for Andrew.  But how'd she find them so fast?

I always figured Bridget was so used to having Emma and Lizzie taking their clothes up, that she said it the way she did.  Good point, Kat, about why was Bridget just now doing Emma's laundry.  I think Susan has the answer to that one - it was a lot of work.  I think Bridget put off washing Emma's clothes until it was closer to the time when Emma would come home.

I have always thought that Lizzie wanted it to sound like "the murderer" was in there whacking Abby (door closed) then "the murderer" escaped (door open). 

Andrew taking the clothesline in is interesting.  I wish they'd have made that more clear.  I think Ray is right in that Andrew didn't want it stolen.  I think Andrew also wanted to make sure the cellar door was good and locked after a wash day.  But there were times when Bridget was entrusted to lock it, weren't there? 

Here's a stretch:  You know how the 'girls' would only do certain chores, and Abby and Bridget had their own areas and boundaries in the house.  Maybe nobody wanted to take in the clothes line.  Maybe Andrew did it to shut them up.  Or maybe no one but Andrew was tall enough to do it.  This is like Andrew 'throwing pears under the barn'.  Give us more!  Give us more! 


19. "Re: Don't be pushy Abby"
Posted by Susan on May-29th-03 at 12:03 AM
In response to Message #18.

Yes, Augusta, thats what I get from Lizzie's testimony about the guest room door.  But, if it was supposed to be someone else that was in the house I still think it would make more sense if that guest room door was closed after they left the room.  Lizzie could have cut her ironing short and came up the stairs wondering why the guest room door was suddenly open and gone and checked the room before the murderer had a chance to do in Andrew and sounded the alarm, or, Lizzie may have seen Abby under the bed and started shrieking.  Either way, Andrew could have died of old age, if it happened that way.

There is that one picture of the back of the Borden house and you can see what looks like an braided area rug and something else hanging on what I guess is the clotheline, you can't see the actual line itself.  I'm curious what it was suspended from, it looks to be parallel with the back of the house.  There is the one photo with some sort of post standing up behind the house, very close to it. 


20. "Re: Don't be pushy Abby"
Posted by Kat on May-29th-03 at 3:47 AM
In response to Message #19.

Ray not to penney-anty with you but just for your info the clean clothes were left on the kitchen table by Bridget along with Andrew's collection of pears.
I always thought it was the dining room lounge so I thought I'd share that bit of news with you, which I just found out.

Augusta, I was wondering if you meant that Bridget knew when Emma was due back?  I don't know if we know when she was due to return?  Unless Bridget knew it would be the fourth, wink,wink.

If I was a killer hiding with the body in the guest room I would keep the door shut and locked with me in there.
When I left the room to sneak downstairs, I would surely leave the door shut and if possible, locked.  (I don't know if that always required a key)
BUT I would have made sure the front door was UNlocked for a quick get-away.  This part I'm not sure about...I know I'd prefer it but I don't know WHEN I'd have a chance to unlock it?
(Even Bridget had a bit of trouble there, Surely I would too)

(Message last edited May-29th-03  3:48 AM.)


21. "Re: Don't be pushy Abby"
Posted by rays on May-29th-03 at 4:26 PM
In response to Message #17.

Sorry, I am not a fount of citations. But I remember it from one or two books. Maybe Brown or Kent (the best and the latest)?
Kat will certainly show me up if I was wrong.


22. "Re: Don't be pushy Abby"
Posted by rays on May-29th-03 at 4:30 PM
In response to Message #19.

Wouldn't a dark wire cable evade photograpy with the films and lenses of that day? (I once knew of an elderly lady who used such a wire, if my memory is correct.)


23. "Re: Don't be pushy Abby"
Posted by rays on May-29th-03 at 4:32 PM
In response to Message #20.

As I said once before, the house was opened to let the visitor in for his chat w/ Andy (brutality says a man, or a coarse women - see Porter). After being found by Abby, and violenty reacting, he sat and waited for Andy's return. After his chat with Andy, he left never to return.

"How in God's name did this happen?"


24. "Re: Don't be pushy Abby"
Posted by Kat on May-29th-03 at 11:49 PM
In response to Message #21.

I only brought it up (about the clean clothes) here because I had just recently posted this information...So it's still active info on here at the moment.  I suppose you didn't catch it where I posted it originally, like 2 days ago?
Otherwise I don't think I would have bothered.
i don't mind bothering, tho, if you don't?