Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden Topic Name: Ruby 2  

1. "Ruby 2"
Posted by Kat on Mar-3rd-04 at 4:48 PM

Let us start again.
There are some valid questions floating about, if Gramma would like to answer.

My understanding is that "Gramma" is transmitting to us Ruby's story.  She has spent hours with her and they became friends, as Gramma lived not too far away.  Ruby was silent all the years until 1984 because she knew it would defile her own parents memories if she spoke out.  She just got fed up with the books being printed and figured she could write a book herself.  Apparently she had some memoirs she could draw upon.
She was selective in what she told people, and if one was to be trusted, they might get a fuller story in more detail.
It was a big deal in her family and  she said to the newspapers that "This affected my mother and father all their lives....It affected my mother mentally."
"Her father died on April 10, 1925, and her mother on the same date in 1932.."  She "turned on the gas."

Now this is a sad story and deserving of some respect here.
We may find flaws and ask about them, but we wouldn't wish to brow-beat Ruby's emmisary.

I'm under the impression that since there are 3 people involved in telling this story:  Ruby, Gramma, and Gramma's mother Virginia-- that each probably had a different spin on it as each is an individual entitled to a variation.

The way I see it, Ruby told Gramma, Gramma is telling us.  But since Gramma is a person with her own thoughts on the subject and maybe more experience in researching the idea than Ruby, that "Gramma" has provided some of her own 'spin' as well.   Taking it to another level, so to speak.
Then we have Gramma's mother, who seems to have had her own theory.
I think Gramma coming here and exposing us to all these theories is fascinating.
I would like to give her the respect we would give someone in our home.
She doesn't have to be here.  She mentioned early on she is not trying to convert or convince anyone.



2. "Re: Ruby 2"
Posted by Raymond on Mar-3rd-04 at 5:20 PM
In response to Message #1.

Obviously no one can question the principals involved. And their memories can be changed by later events. The bottom line is: how factual is this to you? Does it explain anything that is a mystery?

I think 'Gramma' should consult with an experienced writer (local Community College?) who would be better in writing, and can interact with her. (I'm willing to wait 6 months on this.)


3. "Re: Ruby 2"
Posted by audrey on Mar-3rd-04 at 9:07 PM
In response to Message #1.

I think you are right Kat and I need to offer my apologies to Gramma for being less than gracious to her.

If she is willing to keep an open mind, so am I. 


4. "Re: Ruby 2"
Posted by Susan on Mar-3rd-04 at 9:25 PM
In response to Message #1.

I agree, Kat.  I haven't been posting much lately, but, I do still stop by and read the forum when I have the time.  I've heard the David Anthony theory briefly in the past and now am getting the full story, alot of the missing pieces are being filled in by Gramma and I find it fascinating!  I'm trying to keep an open mind about it as it another theory and if it was in book form already we Bordenites would have snatched it up and read it pronto.  It raises some questions for me, but then, every Borden theory has done that for me.  Cheers, Gramma, thank you for sharing with us, it really is interesting reading. 


5. "Re: Ruby 2"
Posted by Kat on Mar-3rd-04 at 9:31 PM
In response to Message #3.

You are classy, Audrey!


6. "Re: Ruby 2"
Posted by Gramma on Mar-3rd-04 at 9:38 PM
In response to Message #3.

Audrey,
You have nothing to apologize for. I can take a little razzing without getting rattled. It is outright rudeness I cannot abide. You have not been rude, really. Just exhuberant and I cannot blame you for not accepting a new scenario thrown at you with nothing in writing to back it up.
In my mind it is clearly a possibility and I watched Ruby's eyes when she was talking to me. I tested her before I would even get into a discussion with her on the subject. The funny thing is she did the same to me. Ruby did not know all the details. She was told the story by Lizzie in the context of her parents having helped David. I am sure Lizzie did not go into gory detail but merely confirmed what Ruby had gathered already from overhearing talk in her own home.
What I want is for people to keep an open mind and realize that some of the "facts" they are basing their judgements on may not be "facts" at all. That there may be some lies out there interwoven with the truth so the story seems plausible. AND there may be truth interwoven with what have been thought to be lies.


Gramma


7. "Re: Ruby 2"
Posted by Kat on Mar-3rd-04 at 11:02 PM
In response to Message #6.

I was thinking of this in the context of the Tricky-McHenry story.  I was trying to figure out why bury some nuggets of truth in an expose article, and not just write the whole darn thing?
The same when the old timers tell their stories.
It makes the mystery that much harder to unravel. 


8. "Re: Ruby 2"
Posted by Gramma on Mar-4th-04 at 7:57 AM
In response to Message #7.

Hi Kat,
Trickey DID write the whole darn thing. That was what got the Globe into trouble. But the whole darn thing was everything twenty-five witnesses said. Have you ever tried to get stories from those who witness an event? No two are ever alike, and the intelligence level varies from witness to witness. So you have to look for the common ground. Trickey, in trying to "scoop" the other papers, did not take the time to make it a cohesive piece.
Personally,I think the whole thing was an attempt by the Fall River Police to get the other side of the story known. I think they had their suspicions and were trying to open the subject of Lizzie having a boyfriend so it would become a part of the trial.
Think about how masterful the defense was, because in over a hundred years we are still sitting here trying to solve this case.

Gramma


9. "Re: Ruby 2's day!"
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Mar-4th-04 at 11:11 AM
In response to Message #8.

Me, I'm going up to the guest room to lie down for an hour with a cold compress on my eyes.


10. "Re: Ruby 2"
Posted by doug65oh on Mar-4th-04 at 1:58 PM
In response to Message #1.

Okay... it's time I threw my nickel in...

Reading this and all the material I could find re: Ruby's story, I’ve noticed a thing or three. Might just be me, but I think I know now how Alice felt in the Lewis Carroll tale.

The time is come, the Walrus said, to speak of many things –
of shoes and Ships and sealing-wax; of Cabbages and Kings.
And why the Sea is boiling hot – and whether Pigs have Wings!!

Such would seem to be the tale of Ruby Cameron.

A case where that is this, you see –
While this is really that.
Should I eat my shoes for lunch today?
Will my feet be warm in that hat?

Gramma reminds us of a very important point: that we have to search out the common ground. The only problem with that (in my present experience) is that each time I seek out common ground, in the end it comes out that what I thought was “common ground” is neither “common” nor “ground” but a sucking morass of quick sand. The advice though, is excellent.

“Trickey, in trying to "scoop" the other papers, did not take the time to make it a cohesive piece.”  This actually makes sense. Reminds me of what happened some years back when nobody took the time to look behind a Pulitzer Prize-winning story until after the prize was awarded. (The prizewinner, of course, was pure fiction.) Everybody likes to be first, but there are times when rushing to be first makes you dead last when the race is over.

The possibility of an aborted child (raised I believe in a different but related thread) only complicates the mix even further. If that were true and had been confirmed and reported at the time, the “victory” headlines might well have read: “Borden No Murderess – But ‘Closet’ Town Tart.”

Getting back to conclude with Ruby, I’d feel a good deal better about the whole thing if not for one quotation (in one of the Providence Journal stories I think) straight from the nurse’s mouth: “Time tends to blur things a bit, honey.”

Hello…? yes, I’d like to register a reasonable doubt!!

Doug