1. "What, is there anybody suspected in this house?"
Posted by harry on May-11th-03 at 11:57 PM

I had always thought that when Mayor Coughlin told Lizzie that she was suspected that he meant the police suspected her.  Now I am not so sure.  This is Hilliard's testimony at the trial (1118)

Q.  Be good enough to state what the talk was.
A.  Yes, sir.  After we entered the parlor and sat down, the mayor said that he had a request to make of the family, and that was that they remain in the house for a few days: that there was a great deal of excitement, and he thought it would be better for all concerned if they should remain there and not go onto the street.  And I think in that conversation, I am pretty sure that he told them that if they was annoyed by the people around the house, why, to send word to the city marshal or himself and he would see that they was dispersed.  I think Mr. Morse it was spoke up and wanted to know how they was going to get their mail from the post office, and the mayor told them it would be better to send somebody for it on account of so much excitement as there was there at the present time around the house.  I think Miss Lizzie it was that spoke up next and said "What, is there anybody suspected in this house?" The mayor said, "Well, perhaps Mr. Morse can answer that question from what occurred last night.” Then with that Miss Lizzie spoke up and said, "I want to know the truth." I think that she repeated that twice. The mayor said, "Well, I regret very much to say, Miss Borden, but you are suspected." With that Miss Emma Borden spoke up and said, "We have tried to keep it from her as long as we could."  I think that was about all the conversation that I can remember of."

It now seems to me that what Coughlin said could also be taken to mean that the crowd outside suspected her and Morse.  We know the crowd suspected Morse.  No where is it said at that meeting that the police suspected her. Later Lizzie made that startling statement "Well, I am ready to go any time."  It would be something if Coughlin only meant the crowd and Lizzie and Emma took it to mean the police.

Just kicking this around and throw it out for discussion.


(Message last edited May-12th-03  12:24 AM.)

OOOHHH!
That's an interesting interpretation.
That might include the inciting newpaper articles and those may have influenced the crowds.
What do you have as headlines at that time?

By George(or in this case, Harry), I think you may be on to something.  I'm thinking, why would the mayor need to make a visit to the Bordens to tell them Lizzie was a suspect?  A police official could have done that alone.  It does sound as if he is concerned for the family's safety and doesn't want a lynch mob on his hands is his town.  The mob outside suspects you, stay inside where you are safe.

Makes me wonder what it was like, the mob outside, the noise?  People possibly yelling things, calling out for Morse or Lizzie to show themselves outside?  It must have been a madhouse. 

I love it when close reading renders another slant on things!  Good work, Harry. 

OK -- I seem to be coming off as Lizzie's champion more often than not right now -- BUT, taking a devil's advocate position here -- what if Lizzie was so upset by the obviously vocal public opinion that she determined to take some action that could clear her name?  Maybe she  hoped that the amount of cooperation the family had extended to the police department had reaped some benefit; and that if she cooperated even more fully by visiting the station house herself to discuss any unresolved issues, she might be vindicated sooner? 

The reason I wonder about this is because Hilliard appears to finish his account to Moody before he mentions Lizzie's 'I am ready to go..' statement and it is Robinson who suggests that he may have more to tell about what was said at that time.  It's almost as if the defence wants those words brought out. (trial p.1119)

Yes, Hilliard had to reminded of several things. No bundle of energy he.

That is an interesting thought Diana on Lizzie. I don't think she had any idea of the feelings on the street until Coughlin makes his statement.

A scenario I could see is this:  When Morse went to the post office the night before he may have heard among the accusations shouted at him, some about Lizzie.  He told those to Emma but not to Lizzie so as not to upset her. That would account for Lizzie being upset when Coughlin first mentions it and Emma having some knowledge that at least some people suspected Lizzie.

I can see no reason why Coughlin and Hilliard would go to the house to tell Lizzie she was a suspect.  I think they were honest in their attempt to protect the household in light of what happened to Morse the previous night.

I think Lizzie, however, took it as the police thinking she was a suspect.

The Evening Standard—Friday, August 5, 1892 Page 1
..."The city is filled with the wildest rumors of arrests, but they are without foundation. The police have the inmates of the Borden homestead under surveillance and should any one there attempt to depart it is probable an arrest would be made on suspicion. The police are particularly watchful of Mr. Morse, to whom the finger of suspicion has been pointed."...

..."This forenoon State Detective Seaver and City Marshal Hilliard had a conference and later on visited and interrogated Miss Lizzie at the house. The results of their investigation will not be known until an arrest of some kind has been made, and that is not likely to take place until after the funeral."...

..."The strict watch that has been kept over Morse was even more strictly kept to-day than ever. It appears to be the desire of the police to make no arrest until after the funeral, unless it becomes known that the murderer actually entered the house and escaped within an hour, an idea scouted by the police at the present time. "...

Can you picture Lizzie tying up her belongings into a red bandana and running away?  I can see why it is doubtful the papers at least meant her at this time...

The MOST IMPORTANT thing (unmentioned in most accounts) is the virtual general strike after the news about the murders. So many walked off the job that the factories had to shut down!
The Number One job for the factory owners was to get the workers back on the job. Arresting someone would do this trick. Months later, if LAB was released, few would care by then (after the elections).

Remember how everyone was sent home after JFK was shot? Same reason: nobody would do any work.

That's a realistic and interesting assumption to make, Harry, that it was the crowd that suspected Lizzie. I had not thought about the possibility that the crowds in front of the Borden house Friday and Saturday night might have been shouting for Lizzie's blood. But I bet your'e right, that some people did voice that opinion, and perhaps the others in the house tried to shield Lizzie from hearing those remarks. But the sisters did go out Friday and Saturday and I wonder that Lizzie didn't hear something from someone on the street to that effect.

Maybe it didn't hit her that she was suspected until the Mayor and Police came over Saturday night and brought up that the family should remain in the house, seemingly for their own protection. It could be that the crowd became increasingly vulgar. Yet, I think that at that point, and since the officers on Thursday started to suspect Lizzie, that the Mayor and Police were there to put her under virtual house arrest without a warrant. Also since the police did suspect her, they might have also stirred up the crowd against her.  It might very well have been a combination of both the crowd's interest and the police views which led to the Saturday visit.

But yet, I really wonder, would the police really have said something like yes, Lizzie you are suspected, if they didn't mean THEY THE POLICE suspected her?  Today, not a chance, because of the meaning of the word "suspect".  The police were so afraid of calling Scott Peterson a suspect that the media was tied in a knot not knowing what to call him, because of the terminology.

Good point about why Emma said that about trying to keep it from Lizzie. I think also that Emma might have been alerted to the possibility that the police suspected Lizzie by their lawyer Friday afternoon and didn't bring it up to Lizzie.

That's a good thought about how Lizzie might have said that about her willingness to go with the police that night. She might have also thought being taken into protective custody might have been what the police suggested.  We don't have the complete conversation, what was said to her before she said that.

That's a realistic and interesting assumption to make, Harry, that it was the crowd that suspected Lizzie. I had not thought about the possibility that the crowds in front of the Borden house Friday and Saturday night might have been shouting for Lizzie's blood. But I bet your'e right, that some people did voice that opinion, and perhaps the others in the house tried to shield Lizzie from hearing those remarks. But the sisters did go out Friday and Saturday and I wonder that Lizzie didn't hear something from someone on the street to that effect.

Maybe it didn't hit her that she was suspected until the Mayor and Police came over Saturday night and brought up that the family should remain in the house, seemingly for their own protection. It could be that the crowd became increasingly vulgar. Yet, I think that at that point, and since the officers on Thursday started to suspect Lizzie, that the Mayor and Police were there to put her under virtual house arrest without a warrant. Also since the police did suspect her, they might have also stirred up the crowd against her.  It might very well have been a combination of both the crowd's interest and the police views which led to the Saturday visit.

But yet, I really wonder, would the police really have said something like yes, Lizzie you are suspected, if they didn't mean THEY THE POLICE suspected her?  Today, not a chance, because of the meaning of the word "suspect".  The police were so afraid of calling Scott Peterson a suspect that the media was tied in a knot not knowing what to call him, because of the terminology.

Good point about why Emma said that about trying to keep it from Lizzie. I think also that Emma might have been alerted to the possibility that the police suspected Lizzie by their lawyer Friday afternoon and didn't bring it up to Lizzie.

That's a good thought about how Lizzie might have said that about her willingness to go with the police that night. She might have also thought being taken into protective custody might have been what the police suggested.  We don't have the complete conversation, what was said to her before she said that.

Isn't that just speculation? We know that JVM was suspected, and had to be rescued by the police from an unruly crowd.
Given the times, the crowd could also have suspected the servant, the only other known occupant.

In a letter from AR Brown we are told just where JVM went that night, and who lived there. This did not make the cut for his book (300 pages is the usual limit - see a library or book store). So Brown knew more than was in his book.

Well, lots of what we do here (in fact, most of it, I'd wager) is speculation, isn't it?  That's a very interesting, Rashamon-like spin to put on that encounter in the parlor, but if we're thinking that Lizzie's reply ("I am ready to go now.") could only have been couched in the steely tones Elizabeth Montgomery used in the telefilm, we're not exploring possibilities.

Now, according to the late author and theorist A.R. Brown, WHERE did Morse go, please? 

Am not clear as to what you are referring that is a Rashamon-like spin (but I am familiar with that story).  If you mean my comment about Lizzie thinking she was being taken into protective custody then it works if you agree with Harry that it was the crowd that the police were worried about. Lizzie at that point would be talked into being taken into protective custody. It would have only of course a police ploy, once they got her in jail, they didn't intend to let her go, thus the warrant Monday, etc.  If Lizzie believed that story she might have been talked into letting herself be taken with the police or saying she would, "I am ready to go now." Am not myself a devotee of movies as portraying real life, so don't go for the Eliz. Montgomery flair on Lizzie B. This all gets one thinking again on just what was left out of reported conversations, etc.

Sorry it took so long to see your querry, Bob.  Am having Mucho kitty problems.

From LABVM/L--"New Research":
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/BrownControversy.htm

"Brown, Arnold. 'Strange Behavior of John Vinnicum Morse.' Lizzie Borden Quarterly, Vol. IV, No. 3 (July 1997): 15."

"In the event you are not the least bit concerned or don't give a fig as to what Hiram C. Harrington's home address was in 1892, please read the included reproduction of a Daily Globe article dated August 6, 1892.
Uncle John Morse's first sojourn out of the Borden house on the Friday evening following the murders has been cited repeatedly in almost all accounts of the Borden murders. His second journey of the evening has been totally overlooked and ignored by all as being of no importance whatsoever. It is, in actual fact, of tremendous significance. That evening he broke his house parole twice. The first outing was to POST a letter or letters (the 'official' poppycock attempts to cover up this most germane fact by saying he went to the Post Office to GET the household's mail). His second recorded trip was to visit with someone who lived on Turner Street.
In that era, two houses stood on Turner Street, wedged between the extremely busy major railroad depot and North Main Street. Unless Mrs. Brigham's information is incorrect, one of these two was the home of Uncle Hiram Harrington. WHY would Morse go there? I'm a skeptic by nature but, had I been the beloved and venerated Hon. Hosea M. Knowlton, Esq., I would have asked either or both of these gentlemen why there was a pressing need for conversing together that evening. For some reason, in any or all of the four hearings or trials in which Morse and Mr. Harrington testified, this question was never asked.
The Mellon House gang did their wondrous works in a most mysterious. highly successful and highly profitable way.

From The Fall River DAILY GLOBE - August 6, 1 1892
'INTENSE EXCITEMENT
Three Thousand People Follow Morse to the Post Office.
The greatest excitement since the first announcement of the tragedy was manifested last night when Morse made his appearance shortly after 8 o'clock. He came out through the front door, passed through the gate and started down Second Street.
Word was passed to Officer Minnehan who was guarding the rear of the building and he immediately started to shadow Morse. The crowd, seeing the officer starting off somewhat hurriedly, made a grand rush after him and in a few seconds a howling mob of nearly a thousand people were rushing after Minnehan and Morse and the amusing part was that not one in fifty knew what they were running for.
Morse walked steadily down Second Street, seemingly ignorant of the presence of the crowd; he crossed Pleasant Street passing along the east side of Market square. Near the Post Office he met a lady with whom he passed a few words and then mounted the steps and walked through the corridor.
The crowd had by this time increased until there mug have been three thousand people crowded about the building and all asking "what's the matter?" Morse's reappearance was not a signal for a demonstration, as so few knew him, and when he started on the return trip the mob was still holding their eyes fast on the Custom House and but few followed him
He returned to the house with the mail and shortly after nine o'clock reappeared and walked down to Main Street who. he boarded a Bowenville car. Officer Minnehan was also an the car and shadowed the man to the house on Turner Street He made but a short stay and returned again directly to the Borden house.' "

Thanks, Kat for that excerpt on Morse and his supposed wanderings!

I was referring to RASHAMON, that Japanese classic about a rape & murder in feudal Japan, because that film is about how different people remember an event in different ways.  Since none of us were in the parlor, we're reframing what was reported to have been said in different ways to discover possible meanings.

(Message last edited May-15th-03  10:52 AM.)

Brown thought it suspicious that sometime after the Inquest, where Hiram claims to live at 12 Turner Street, Uncle Hiram has gained an address at Franklin Street, by trial time, which is supposed to be in a better part of town.