1. "Is it to Scary?"
Posted by Dill on Dec-16th-03 at 11:59 PM

I just discovered this interesting,informative site and just in the nick of time, too.  I have wanted to stay at the B&B since I first heard of it.  Now, I have the opportunity.  I called the B&B today and will be able to stay this coming SAT. Night. The problem is: all of a sudden... I'M SCARED!  Part of me really, really wants to go but I keep thinking of ghosts.  I have always been fascinated by and drawn to this case.  I do not even, really, believe in ghosts.  Why then, am I, all of a sudden, so scared? Has anyone here ever stayed there?  I did not make the reservation as yet but said I'd call back tomorrow after I find a kennel for my beagle.  If anyone has stayed there before, please let me know if it is too scary. 
Well anyway, I am so glad I found this site. I have read so many informative posts. It is a pleasure to meet all of you. 

Hi!  Welcome here!
Well you know when you return you can post your experiences here or you can write up a good "First Person" story for The Hatchet!
I don't think the place is haunted- I think that's good for tourism.
Another new member here is going this weekend.  Maybe you two can meet?
I'm looking to find who it is.  Maybe she will post to you.

It is "Can" who is also going this weekend.
See post #21, thread http://www.arborwood.com/awforums/show-topic-1.php?start=21&fid=27&taid=1&topid=1760

Kat...Thank You for your response.  It ended up that we cannot go this week end.  We had applied to a beagle dog rescue  a couple of weeks ago. We heard from them today that this weekend we can adopt our new beagle.  When the new dog feels at home enough to be left at a kennel for the weekend, we will go.  I was up until 4 AM reading all the posts on this site. I found them to be most fascinating and all gave me food for thought.  Gee...I thought I knew alot about the Borden case but you people make me seem like a novice. I am having good fun here and learning lots.  After some more reading and learning I plan to contribute my 2 cents.  'Till then I'll be here learning a lot. 

i can relate to what you're saying.  i just read for several months before i dared post.  but you just jump right in.  after a year or so, you'll be amazed at what you know -- and/or maybe i should say, you'll be amazed at the magnitude of the subject.  i want to tell you a particular observation i've made:  a "fresh" insight or question or even an error -- can lead to very revealing conversations.  what i really mean to say is that you don't need to worry about not knowing enough to talk.

You are so right!  I am amazed at how much I write without knowing a thing about what I'm talking about!  heh, heh. YOu guys have probably figured that out by now though!

Congratulations on your new Beagle.  It's a wonderful thing to rescue an animal .
I see you already have one. 
Everything happens at the right time, I think, so you weren't meant to go stay at the B&B this weekend, correct?  I bet you wouldn't be scared if you could take your beagles!

The murder house is too scary for me to spend the night in.  I think that if there are such a thing as haunted houses, that house would be one.

Some day I'd like to go at the same time others on this forum do.  I wouldn't sleep at all.  I'd stay up all night downstairs talking with whoever wanted to stay up and do the same.  That cellar ... I get scared just thinking about that - especially envisioning it at night.

I don't think Lizzie would be haunting that house, tho.  She hated it!  I think if she is wandering around anyplace, she'd be at Maplecroft.  Maybe Andrew and Abby hang there.  Or if there was someone besides Lizzie who killed them.

Martha McGinn, the half-owner who virtually grew up in the house, has been interviewed and admits to paranormal activity going on there.  I talked to her a couple years ago and asked her about it, before I read any of her interviews.  She didn't hesitate to tell me about several occurances that had gone on there.

I remember her telling me about a bed (the guestroom one?).  Someone would finish making it up and shortly afterwards there would be an imprint of a person's body on the bedspread.  And lights going off or on.  Photos moving or something. 

She is interviewed in a video about the Borden case (Harry, what is the name of that video??) and talks about how her dog would never go up the one staircase; it would bark up at it like something was there.

A lot of people have gone there and tried to communicate with a spirit but have received no response. 

There's a college group that has gone there a couple of times and has documented strange goings on there.  Does anybody have the web address for their site?  

I think if the house is haunted, it would not be Lizzie's ghost.  I think it would be Andrew's.  I remember years ago reading a Lizzie book and thinking, "that old  &?@%$#  deserved what he got!".  Now I have matured and believe no one deserves that kind of death,(Excepting maybe Bundy, Hussein etc.). Andrew really gives me the creeps, even a picture of him. His face is so sharp and mean looking and Mrs. Borden is just ugly.  Lizzie's face is gentle and kind looking.  I think Lizzie was a very lazy person and it sounds crazy but that is one of the reason I think she did not do it.  When she was waiting for those clothes irons to ge hot, (to iron her hankies), instead of packing the fire she simply sat down and waited. Then when she went to the barn instead of just going getting her stuff, she sort of la de dahed over to the pear tree then strolled over to the barn, sat down and ate a pear.  All very spacy. I know when I have to get something from say the garage, I just go and get it. It doesn't seem to me she had the amount of energy it takes to kill 2 people with an ax.  I think she would have used poison,then she would only have to open a bottle pour and sit and wait instead of running around swinging an ax.
We are still waiting for the beagle rescue to tell us which dog is best for our home.  And a good friend to our beagle "Hoover".     

Jeesh Augusta!  I was trying to soothe fears of staying in the house so she could have a good time! 
Anyway, I still think some of these stories are lore, to enhance the Legend.  Look how long it took to be called haunted on those Seance and Psychic sites.
Anyway, since the house is so old and Lots of people have lived there, even without the murders there can be residue vibrations lingering. 
Bill Pavao lived there over a year and never experienced anything, he has  said so here on the Forum.

That is good!  Lizzie too lazy to whack 2 people to death with a hatchet.
In a way, I see that the same way.  She doesn't do things in a hurry and the killing of Andrew at least was a rushed job!
And there Lizzie stands, spotless.
I wish we could prove poison, tho..at least the attempt.

That is exactly what convinces me Lizzie didn't "do it" herself,
she was so lazy and slow.  And superior, she wouldn't get her hands
dirty like that! 
 

Superior...of course, I never thought of that.  Do you think she was also not to bright?  But now I was just thinking, she wanted a gloamouris life and maybe she would do anything to achieve that ...even kill.  But again I think people who love glamour usually are not lazy. I best stop now because this case always takes me in circles.

Did she really not do things in a hurry, or is that just a fascade?  She's the only one who sez that.  She lived in an era where women (esp wealthy women) were supposed to be delicate little flowers, wafting here & there...what Lizzie said often seems to be the opposite of her reality.

Well the longer you take to do something the more it fills up the day.
Lizzie didn't have much responsibility so I really think she could go as slow as she liked.
Fishing is slow.
Planning is slow...
hmmmm

Kat, why does everyone insist on the lazy Lizzie image.  She did light housework (her own room and dainty ironing); she kept pigeons; she hauled her own slop pail; she did her own mending; she worked for several committees (which must have been the most tedious work of all).  These chores were at least as extensive those done by any of her unemployed friends. And her resentment seems to have nothing to do with household drudgery, but more to do with pride and desire for status.  Lizzie seems more bored than lazy to me.

Lyddie

Since you're asking me, other's may not respond.
So all I can say, being a liitte lazy at the moment myself, is check what Emma has to say about Lizzie's efforts in the home and what Lizzie says about herself. 
There are also anecdotes about her leaving school and quitting piano lessons.
Rebello has her joined up in one charity for a year only.
We have to account for 31 years prior to this time.
BTW:  Her friends were either married or worked, maybe except for the Bucks.

(Message last edited Dec-19th-03  3:45 AM.)

I can't remember what source it was that mentioned that Lizzie didn't do well in school.  She had poor grades.  That doesn't mean she wasn't smart.  I think she was a bit cunning and manipulative to get her own way and perhaps had no desire (lazy or bored perhaps) to retain book/school knowledge.

Damn.  Too bad you can't make it this weekend because I'll be there with my husband.  I need to get alot of research done for my screenplay but would have loved to stay up and hash out theories.  You should definitely go though at some point before it gets sold.  It's worth the trip.  During the day it is neat but at night it does seem to take on another "spooky" air to it.  I have stayed in Lizzie's room in the past and as I've stated here previously did experience a little bit of phenomena and had pictures of spiritual "orbs" in them from basement pictures I took.  I seriously have to find those pics and just go through some old boxes.  Maybe the pics I get this weekend will be able to capture some spiritual element to them as well.  I don't think it would be Lizzie though.  Since Andrew and Abby were taken so quickly in such a violent manner it would make sense that they are still in the house because of a state of bewilderment and perhaps not even knowing they are dead.  I'll let you know if I experience anything. 

But wasn't this as common as turning on a TV today? You can't compare daily life without electricity to today.
Compare hitching up a horse, or saddling it, to just drving away.

Judging a person by their face??? Surely you jest??
EVERY con man "looks like" an honest person, that is their stock in trade. You can look at some book in the library that has pictures of famous murderers. Aside from their circumstances (police custody), how many look like a villain in a horror story (Frankenstein)?

I think it's partly that.
I've heard a psychologist say that to be bored is being too lazy to get excited about anything, and that people who are lazy actually work at it!

don't you tend to think that lizzie's laziness or "haziness" is the condition underwhich she would become delusional? it seems to me that her feelings are not uncommon among "people who feel."  it is that she crosses a moral boundary that most of us have decided not to cross -- at least unless we ourselves are under attack.  if she did what she appears to have done, she doesn't so much need a diagnosis of a particular mental illness.  it is an event in her moral makeup.

I am not talking about the structure of the face, but about  the expression, lines that expressions leave.  I am not saying this as a definite science, just that at times one can tell alot from a persons face, eyes.  One time I was visiting a friend in the hospital.  At the elevator there was a man who was shackled and being escorted by 2 cops.  I though, poor man.  Then I looked at his eyes. I never saw eyes like that in my life.  It's as if they stared right through me and they were consumed with anger. Of course this is an extreme.  

I totally agree with you Dill, you can definitly see someone
through their eyes.  The eyes are the window to your soul and
even Ted Bundy was suppossed to be a nice guy, but look at his
eyes, DEAD EYES.  Lizzie had lazy eyes!

I have a friend who says evil people wear mask.  But there is always a time when the mask comes off (if only for a second) and you see the real person.  Could Lizzie have been one of these people?  I don't know but I like to think that Lizzie was innocent.  Yet so much evidence points to guilt.  I just ordered some lizzie books I need to read.
I think Bundy had predator eyes for sure.  Always on the look out. Like a shark

Can.....  would love to have met with you at the B&B to discuss this fascinating case.  But my crazy Beagle needs a friend.  He is in a house full of cat's.  My hubby will go to the B&B with me when we go, however he is really not to interested.  He does like history and the victorian aspect of the case.  Anyway have a Wonderful and Safe time.  Cant't wait to see the photos.  Will you post them?

you're right to think there is information in a face. and in lines, in palms, etc.  one may discern truth from an image.  of course, competency in doing it is another subject.  but eyes SEE -- some eyes see more than others, some see more accurately than others.  "perception" is so elusive and subject to so many other variables, it's almost impossible to talk about it in a general sense.  it's there though.  i'm not done with lizzie's eyes by a long shot, and i've been on that for a year or more.

Years ago, before I really got into the Borden case, I only knew that Andrew was a one-dimensional Scrooge.  And when I looked at his photo, I thought, 'Oh, he looks so stark!  What a mean old man!'
But now that I have studied a bit and find some sources telling us of occasions where he was kind, I am surprised that I look at his photo today and I think he may even have a bit of softness about his eyes and mouth.  It is truly amazing what perception can do when looking at a photo. 

Back to the haunting of the B & B, you're right, Kat.  Stories could be just hype.  I remember reading Bill Pavao's post saying he never had any experience there at all, and I was a little surprised.  It does, tho, take certain personalities to appreciate another possible world of spirits co-existing with ours. 

Mr. Dube has briefly mentioned in an interview that his Maplecroft was haunted.  But he never went into detail.  It was as if it were bait of some sort to get people to come check it out when he turned it into a B & B for a short time.  If there are haunting stories about Maplecroft, I'd love to hear them.  I've never heard one.  I would think Lizzie would be hanging around there if she could.

I like to think that Andrew was kind at times. Especially to Emma.

Jay Leno went on a JayWalking segment this past year and had big photo's of famous and infamous people in the news.  They covered the whole face except for the eyes.
Most people thought Saddam's eyes looked kind and the Pope's looked evil.
But he doesn't interview rocket scientists either...

Remember, you don't know how many were interviewed to get the reaction that they wanted!!! Or if they played to the questioner (get your 15 seconds of fame).

Yes, I am not naive, thanks anyway.
I often wonder on Street Smarts, which is a kind of JayWalking knock-off, if the use a flash card to give the person the answer and then they can filnm the right answer and the wrong answer and decide who wins that way.  Of course it's possible, because we can't see the filming from behind the scenes.  But if we could see a film of the filming, then we may also not trust that film either and need a film of the film of the filming...oh you know, I think my life is much simpler than yours

i'm sure you're inner life is complex..............i would advise people not to mess with you too much.  i wouldn't.  i would wait for a "sign of invitation" before i said too much.

When Lizzie came home from the Grand Tour in 1890, it's said that Andrew came downstairs the next morning, saw Lizzie's trunks and rushed upstairs and took her hand in his, telling her how glad he was to have her home.

On a walk with Morse, he confided to him that he wanted to leave some of his money to the old age home.  (For some reason, I'm thinking it was a home for old women.  Maybe I'm thinking of Alice Russell - that she lived out her last days in the old age home.)

The ring on his finger he wore till his death was from Lizzie.  He didn't even wear a wedding band, but wore this.

He had the respect of the other businessmen in Fall River.  They tipped their hats to him as his hearse rode by.

His credit report during his Borden & Almy days was impeccable.  Not a bad thing written.  Just good investments.

Andrew was raised a Quaker.  I think we need to remember that those were his roots, and much of his way of looking at things probably came from this.  No modern conveniences could have meant he believed in a simple way of life, instead of the oft-repeated "he was too cheap".  Still, the 'girls' resented it no matter why he thought what he did regarding frills. 

Thanks.  That was well put Augusta.

Thanks, Kat.  I think there are some more anecdotes about Andrew's being kind or generous.

Consider today's society. Would the young daughters of a very rich man ever be satisfied by what he did for them?

Is Paris Hilton "satisfied"?

I think Paris Hilton is a lot more satisfied than Lizzie.  Ms. Hilton gets to buy what she wants, go where she wants, etc.

Here's Lizzie in the Victorian age, where "abundance" is the theme of their decor.  And she's stuck in this ugly old house with everything plain, plain, and leftover. 

Can you imagine her feelings seeing everybody else having all these pretty things, and her living how she did?  It must have been very tough on her, if she set great store on things like this.  And I think she did, considering the house she bought as soon as she possibly could. 

I think Lizzie would have been better suited to our generation then her own. She strikes me as being very much a "ME" person, greedy, materialitic, and disrepectful towards her elders and authority in general. I doubt if I would found her very likeable, but I am still fasinated by her.

Actually, the "me" generation began after the Cival War (1860s) as far as I know. "The Gilded Age"?

Thanks for inspiring me to go look at "The Gilded Age".  I now understand the prevailing business standards which molded Andrew Borden!


"Conservatism Triumphant, 1868-1897: Gilded Age Politics"

"Politics of the period were deeply affected by periods three depressions—1873-1879, the mid-1880’s, and 1893-1897. People tended to reject the politicians who held office, blaming them for hard times. collapse. Governments did almost nothing to remedy the situation no matter how much distress the citizenry had. Most educated people and a large proportion of the others believed in laissez-faire or free enterprise theory. They believed that, just as there were natural laws in physics or chemistry, there were also natural laws of economics and society. To interfere with natural laws was to court disaster for doing so would be a waste of effort action and counter to nature. They believed that the sum total of the selfishness of each individual in society would result in the common good as natural law balanced things put. Classical free enterprise argued that competition would prevent the rise of monopoly except in the case of the few 'natural' monopolies.

Further, they believed that poverty was a punishment for laziness or vice or both. Put another way, they believed that rewards went to those who deserved them [ignoring inherited wealth or stealing, of course]. If there were difficulties or suffering, then these were spurs to greater effort. This was the American Way and efforts to aid the poor or the suffering was foolish and immoral. It was better that they should die so that the fitter would live. This was the law of the jungle—eat or be eaten. Some said it was the Divine Plan; others said it was biology. And these views were taught and preached and spread by word of mouth. After all, this was America and everyone could and should get rich."

[partial]
http://historicaltextarchive.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=7

See:
http://historicaltextarchive.com/sections.php?op=listarticles&secid=36

From:
http://historicaltextarchive.com/

Note how this "religion" (a system of beliefs) coincided with their own special interests?

"The Gilded Age" was a novel by Mark Twain(?). It introduced the word "flack" from a character in the novel: a newspaper reporter who was a "public relations" or advertising (?) person.

(I never read the book, but once read about it.)

"Gilded" is another term for someone who seems better than they are: just brass underneath.