Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden Topic Name: Here Is The Trickey-McHenry News Story From The "Privy"  

1. "Here Is The Trickey-McHenry News Story From The "Privy""
Posted by Kat on Feb-20th-04 at 4:15 PM

My transcription:
: The GLOBE NEWSPAPER HOAX/Trickey/McHenry Aritcle REPRINT in EVENING STANDARD"

     
"THE DETECTIVE'S STORY.

The following is the story of Detective E.D. McHenry of Providence in detail:

I was called on to the Borden case Aug.5, and after looking matters over in a general way, called my wife and domiciled her at the Wilbur house, to gather what information she could prior to having her interview with the Borden woman, if such action were necessary.

I concluded Bridget Sullivan was the first person to proceed against in the inquiry, after learning of her term of service, and my wife went and interviewed her in the garb of a sister of charity. 

She elicited from her all that she knew about the family affairs, and then I called upon her, then Marshal Hilliard did, then two other officers on his force, and finally we all compared notes--that is, Marshal Hilliard and I compared them, and we found no discrepancies worthy of note in the servant girl's statement.

It was then proposed to investigate her record, as the statement about her being offered money is very material, and we held it back, personally feeling that she might have a spirit of revenge against Lizzie and my wife and I were not going to prejudice the case in any way.

I investigated her career from the time she landed in America to the time of the death of her intended husband a month before the murder.

Upon my return we made another examination, and she stood the test satisfactorily, and both Marshal Hilliard and myself were satisfied that she had told the truth.

I then turned her over to my wife again, and she worked her, thinking that we might have overlooked something in our inquiry, but the only thing new that we got were the names of the parties whose statements we procured and who have given their affidavits to the district attorney.  I mean Mr. and Mrs. Chace and the others, whose testimony grew and was developed from that original source.

I was especially detailed to investigate her motive, and my wife was left to interview the parties mentioned, no matter where she found them.

She made several trips, one of which was into New York State, with success.  I began my work by investigating Mrs. Borden's life.

Marshal Hilliard had his whole force at work upon two theories.

One was, has Mrs. Borden an enemy in the world outside of her home who could possibly have committed the murder?  The other was an equally difficult line of action, and pertained to the movements of those in the Borden house on the fatal day.

I concluded my part of the work without discovering that Mrs. Borden had an enemy outside her own family, and I had a long interview with the medical examiner, the mayor and the marshal, and learned from the doctors the estimated difference of time in the deaths of the two people. 

I then began a different line of investigation taking the statements of Bridget and the ones that Lizzie had made, to the marshal, the deputy marshal and others; then the time, then the condition of the weather, and other similar important facts. 

I then spent 20 minutes in the hayloft of the barn, then had a weight dropped inside of the house to ascertain if I could hear it, and began writing a letter so as not to appear as if watching for the sound.  From my position I heard a 20-lb. weight dropped in the room where Mrs. Borden was killed, I being in the same position that Lizzie described at the inquest, , that she was in at the time of the murder of Mr. Borden.

This experiment was tried at 10 o'clock in the morning on a day that corresponded in temperature to Aug.4.  I then ascertained how near the door there was any lead such as could be used for sinkers, and learned from those who went into the barn first without stating to anyone what my position was, the position of things in general.

I found by measurement that exactly three feet and six inches from the door was a box , containing 21  1-2 pounds of sheet lead, of which I have a sample. 

One glance of the eye to a stranger would locate the box beyond question as she entered the barn, while it's position to one acquainted with the premises could not for a moment be doubted.  I then searched the outside premises in the rear, taking into consideration that the pile of boards had been shifted.  I caused the adjacent yards and lumber piles and mortar boxes and cesspools to be examined for a weapon. 

I carefully scrutinized every inch of the barb wire for a stain of any kind such as the murderer, if fleeing from the premises that way, would be likely to leave behind him.  I found nothing.

I then examined the barb points within the range of the lumber pile with similar results.  The result of my examination led me to believe it was an impossibility for one to have escaped that way without being seen and heard by the people in the vicinity. 

Moreover, the street door had no stain of any kind upon it such as it ordinarily would have if pushed open by a red-handed assassin.  I examined all the interior of the house with especial reference to possible exits, but found no trace of anyone's departure nor any stains.

"The second day of my wife's sojourn in Fall River, she learned the complete story that Mrs. Ronald has told, and I got her statement in person.

Then Officer Harrington and myself began to hunt for Mahany.   We found him and he identified Mrs. Ronald as the person he had met.

My wife sent me a dispatch about the statement of the Chace people, whom she found in New York State, and as a result the order for breaking open the safe was given.  I kept out of Mr. Jennings' way as much as possible, knowing that certain parties were shadowing me all the time in the interest of the defence. 

I then to my own satisfaction secured a motive, being all the time cognizant of what the marshal's forces were procuring, I saw that our lines of action were coinciding at every stage.

Then I detailed my sister to substitute my wife and sent the latter to Marion to interview people there.

She secured a copy of a letter that is in the hands of the district attorney, which I did not see, and therefore cannot speak about.  I then returned home, procured my men, and put them on the train of Mr. Hanscom and Mr. Jennings.

Later they were taken off and sent back to Providence, where they found a lawyer's clerk who told them a few weeks before the murder Lizzie had been to Providence and purchased, among other goods, a lamp and some crockery.

I learned subsequently where she made these purchases, but they did not cut any figure in the murder beyond tracing her movements around the city, and from what was said to me it will be necessary to make further investigations before I can tell where else she went and whom she saw during that visit in the city.  I am not at liberty to state the name of the lawyer from whom most of my information on this end of the case came.

During the inquest I was familiar with everything that occurred in Mrs. Reagan's room between Lizzie and her callers.

In the rear of the matron's room was a bath-room, with a thin partition dividing it from the sergeant's sleeping room that opens out of the patrolmen's dormitory.  For several days I or my representatives were concealed under the bed in Lizzie's room, listening to the conversation that occurred, but finally, owing to the presence of Mr. Adams, counsel for the defence, whom I feared would discover the deception practiced, the city marshal had two boards in the partition between the bath-room and the sergeant's room taken out, and a cloth covering substituted, in which there were small holes, allowing me to see and hear comfortably.

I was within 17 feet of Lizzie Borden when the trouble between her and her sister occurred.  Lizzie Borden deliberatly kicked her sister three times, threw biscuit at her and called her a 'd__b__.'  I have full and complete notes of that interview.

Lizzie charged her sister with giving her away.  She accused her of wanting to see her hanged, and said that it was because with her out of the way Emma would come into the entire fortune.  She said she never would give in; that she would die first.  And she said that Emma, her sister, had been the one person whom she thought she could trust with her secret.

She said that she never would forgive her in the world.  Emma told her that she only did what she did to benefit Lizzie's case, and Mr. Jennings had learned the fact only in her interest.

Lizzie added that she would under no circumstances have told him anything.  It seemed to me that she was almost insane in her manner at the time. 

Besides Mrs. Reagan, who has made affidavit to the above facts, there is another beside myself who has likewise deposed.  

"Peter Mahany, timekeeper in the Troy mill, residing at 103 Pleasant street, Fall River, will testify:

On the morning of Aug.4, 1892, I left my house at 25 minutes of 10 o'clock, as I had to call at Dr. Kelly's home on Second street next door above the late Andrew J. Borden's residence.  I reached there about 9:45 o'clock, and as I passed the Borden house I thought I heard a cry or groan of distress.  I was not sure, but as I got to the steps of the doctor's house I heard it again, and I did not go in, but came back to the sidewalk and saw a young woman with a baby standing listening.  In a window on the second floor of the Borden house I saw a face, and after the look that I had, although there was a cloth or black cap or something around the person's head as she looked out, still I positively recognized the face of that of Lizzie A. Borden, the younger daughter, whom I have long known.  I saw her when she slammed down the window and then disappeared from it.  I asked the young woman with the baby if she had heard that terrible cry or groan, and she said yes, and added it had scared her terribly and sent a chill through her.  She told me that she had also seen the woman looking down at her.

Mrs. Chace's Evidence

Mrs. Frederick Chace, wife of Frederick Chace, owner of the Chace mills at Fall River, and residing at 198 Fourth street in that city, will testify:

I have known Andrew J. Borden and his wife for over 15 years.  On the 3rd day of August, 1892, early in the afternoon, I met Mr. Borden on Main street in Fall River, and talked to him a few minutes.  He asked me to come over that night with my husband, and I promised him we would and I asked him how he and how Mrs. Borden were. 

He said she was very well but he was troubled a great deal about what he had talked of previously, and he thought if I and my husband came over it would cheer him up a good deal.  I told him we would certainly come and then left him.  About 7:30 o'clock that evening my husband, my daughter, Mrs. Manchester, and myself arrived at the Borden house. 

My daughter had come to our house for tea, her husband being away for a couple of days.  It thus happened that she accompanied us to the Bordens'.  She is very jolly, and Mr. Borden thought a good deal of her, and we thought she would tend to cheer the old folks up, which was another incentive for us to take her along.

We were accustomed to enter the Borden house by the back door, as we were well aware, and had been for a long time, of the condition of affairs in the family.  As we went to the door Maggie or Bridget, as she is properly called, was on the stair-way and must have been coming down and stopped there, as we thought.

First we shook the screen door, and Bridget then came down toward us.

After we started up the stairs, intending to go to the sitting-room, we heard loud and angry voices in the dining-room, and above all heard Mr. Borden's voice.  I was satisfied at once that the servant girl had been on the stairs listening to the quarrel. 

The first words I heard were:  'You can make your own choice and do it tonight.  Either let us know what his name is or take the door on Saturday, and when you go fishing fish for some other place to live, as I will never listen to you again.  I will know the name of the man who got you into trouble.'

We felt awfully embarrassed, and turned around to each other, and I said to my daughter 'Fay', as I always called her, 'do go and get Bridget and send her ahead of us, as it would be awful to walk right in upon them.'

This I said in a whisper.  Just then I heard Lizzie answer:  'If I marry this man, will you be satisfied that everything will be kept  from the outside world?'  Then Bridget came to us, and word was sent in to Mrs. Borden.

I said to my husband, referring to Lizzie:  'That girl will be the means of great trouble if she is not wise to-night.'

Mr. and Mrs. Borden received us in the dining-room, whither we repaired, and were received pleasantly.

Lizzie turned around and went off without recognizing us, to the front of the house.  She was dressed in her street apparel, and we did not know whether she had just come in or not.  The old folks later said that she was going out.

Pretty soon Mrs. Borden said to her husband:  'You must not get so angry with Lizzie, as she has a terrible temper, and there is no telling what she might do to herself.'

Mr. Borden said:  'I would rather see her dead than have this come out.'  I then spoke up and said:  'Now Mrs. Borden is right.  You ought not to get so angry with her.  Be gentle and try to find out who this man is, and whether he is made of anything at all he will marry her, and everything will be nicely settled.'  Mr. Borden said:  'No, I have my suspicions and have had all along, but if I am right I will never recognize this man in the world.  She has made her own bed, so let her lie upon it.'  Mr. Borden added. 'To think at my time of life that such a terrible scandal is about to overtake me is terrible.  You cannot advise or do anything with Lizzie;  she will have her own way, come what may of it.  By the way John Morse is visiting us.  He may be here at any minute.  Now we know, Mr. Chace, that you never could bear him, as you say.  But when he does come in don't let on a word to him about what has occurred to-night, as we don't want him to know that we have discovered anything as yet.'

We then turned on to other matters, and did not refer to Lizzie's trouble again, except saying sorry that things were so and hoped that things would turn all right again.  At 9:10 we left for home, bidding Mr. and Mrs. Borden goodnight.
     
"MR. CHACE CORROBORATES

Mr. Frederick Chace of 198 Fourth street, Fall River, will testify:
I have known Andrew J. Borden and wife over 16 years, and have visited him at his home and he has visited me in mine.  We were very close friends, and he has told me a great deal about his family troubles. 

I knew his wife to be a most self-sacrificing woman.  She has been insulted grossly in my presence by both of his daughters, and on one occasion Lizzie said to her, before me, that she wished her to make less noise in the room we were occupying, as she, Lizzie, was busy with a scholar and our conversation annoyed her.  I asked Mrs. Borden if she were taken that way often, and the latter said, 'Oh, she has spells when she is very nice.'

One time later on she said that Lizzie had never addressed her by any title for over four years.  I then said to my son-in-law Mr. Manchester, just what I heard about her and the way I knew she treated her stepmother.

He said something derogatory of Lizzie afterwards, and she learned of it, and then we fell from grace so far as that end of the family was concerned. 

Andrew has repeatedly told me about expecting trouble from her, and said he did not know how to avoid it.  Then he said there had been a robbery at his house in 1891, and that nothing had been taken except what belonged to her stepmother, and that he had heard it said that my sister, Mrs. G. J. Sisson, had said that she had seen Mrs. Borden's watch in Lizzie's possession after it had been stolen, and that she recognized it.  'Now, Fred.' said Mr. Borden, 'find out the truth of this from your sister and let me know if it is true.  I believe it is but I want to be sure.'  I then told him that my sister had told me so some time before and that I believed her.

He said, 'Well, I can account now for a great many things,' and he called Lizzie to the door and said in my presence,'I want you to get Mrs. Borden's watch and other articles and have them returned at once; that is all I have to say.'  Lizzie gave me a look that i will always remember.

This was in February, 1892, about Washington's birthday week.  I also corroborate, in detail,  the statement of the quarrel at the Borden house the night prior to the murder as made by my wife in her statement for the authorities and confirmed by my daughter."

-------------------------------
"NEITHER AFFIRM NOR DENY.

District Attorney Thinks He Knows
Where The Story Came From

District Attorney Knowlton was seen this forenoon and asked concerning the developments in the Borden case published in another column.  He said he had not read the story, but thought he knew from what source it came, but would not tell at the present time.  He was asked in the light of the published story if he would not make a statement concerning certain phases of the case, and declined firmly and courteously to say anything for publication. 

State Policeman George F. Seaver was asked concerning the published story, and said he knows nothing concerning it's origion or truth."



--Smaller headlines on the 11th of October:

"THE BORDEN STORY
-----------------------
Detective McHenry Sold it to a Reporter
-----------------------
It Is Proved to be a Lie In Several Particulars
-----------------------
Branded as a Gigantic Fake by Reputable Persons
-----------------------
How it is Looked Upon by the Citizens of Fall River
-----------------------
Latest Developments Following the Publication of the Yarn"

("Boston , Oct.11.--The Globe today says...")---end


2. "Re: Here Is The Trickey-McHenry News Story From The "Privy""
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Feb-20th-04 at 4:31 PM
In response to Message #1.

Well...where to start?

Wasn't John Morse already at the house by 7:30 p.m.?


3. "Re: Here Is The Trickey-McHenry News Story From The "Privy""
Posted by Kat on Feb-20th-04 at 6:36 PM
In response to Message #2.

Are we going to take this apart? 

Trial
Alice
374
Q.  Now I will call your attention, if you please, to a visit she made to you upon the Wednesday night of August 3 of last year.  Did she make such a visit?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  About what time did she make it?
A.  I am not sure; I think about seven.

Q.  Some time in the evening, was it?
A.  Yes, sir.

Q.  Did she come alone or did some one else come with her?
A.  Alone, as far as I saw.

Q.  Now speak louder; I find difficulty in hearing you.  About how long did she stay with you, Miss Russell, that night?
A.  I think she went at nine, or five minutes after.  That is as near as I know.


4. "Re: Here Is The Trickey-McHenry News Story From The "Privy""
Posted by njwolfe on Feb-20th-04 at 6:43 PM
In response to Message #1.

Thanks for that Kat, is this the story that Gramma is talking about,
from the "morning edition"?  Yes, as Bob says, "where to start" but
we could pick it apart pretty good I think, a lot of questions here!


5. "Re: Here Is The Trickey-McHenry News Story From The "Privy""
Posted by Kat on Feb-20th-04 at 8:47 PM
In response to Message #4.

[Edit here:]
I should preface this with:
Dear Gramma:


A reprint means they took the story from another paper and re-printed it.
That's what it means.
The earlier part I transcribed was a synopsis by the Standard and it was a brilliant coverage at that.
This section comes later and I had to transcribe in portions as I do it with one finger so maybe someone did not read that far.

When you get to McHenry writing "I' , "I', "I', then you've got the original whether it was re printed or not.

--[[edit here]This has been confusing to members but I think I know my material.

(sorry nancie, did not mean you.)

(Message last edited Feb-20th-04  9:35 PM.)


6. "Re: Here Is The Trickey-McHenry News Story From The "Privy""
Posted by Raymond on Feb-21st-04 at 11:03 AM
In response to Message #1.

Could Bridget have been fooled by this ruse of a nun's costume? Didn't they always go around in pairs, like FBI men, to validate each other's conduct?
Also, Bridget, being devout, might have known all the local Sisters of Mercy (what a name for a detective!).

How reliable are these witnesses? Didn't the police have a grudge against Trickey and set him up because of his prior reportings in Boston? The Boston Glove could not quickly check these witnesses.
...
YES, I know that this story was "not true in some particulars".

(Message last edited Feb-21st-04  11:04 AM.)


7. "Re: Here Is The Trickey-McHenry News Story From The "Privy""
Posted by njwolfe on Feb-21st-04 at 7:06 PM
In response to Message #5.

I didn't see your original post so no worry Kat. 
I appreciate your research and knowledge.  I hope we
can keep "Gramma" on here, she is a gem. 
We are such obnoxious scholars on the Lizzie subject, we know
EVERYTHING!  How refreshing and new is it to have someone like
Gramma give us new info?   I hope we don't turn her off with comments
or whatever, let's all be GOOD OK? 


8. "Re: Here Is The Trickey-McHenry News Story From The "Privy""
Posted by Kat on Feb-21st-04 at 7:30 PM
In response to Message #7.

Well, gramma has been very patient with us and very good about learning as well as teaching.
I am psychic you know- you can trust my judgement.


9. "Re: Here Is The Trickey-McHenry News Story From The "Privy""
Posted by Gramma on Feb-21st-04 at 7:48 PM
In response to Message #8.

Psychics usually have inside information!

Gramma


10. ""Let's all be good, okay""
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Feb-23rd-04 at 11:24 AM
In response to Message #7.

What the HELL are you talking about?

This is certainly an elaboration on a story we've heard before (the "my boyfriend did it" claim that Lizzie may or may not have made), and yes, Gramma's posts are entertaining and thought-provoking, but what are you advocating?  That we not challenge her, lest she throw her skirts over her face and run off in fear?  This is but another theory to add to the pile, and I'm not about to jump on the good ship David Anthony just because of Gramma's appearance on the site.

In other words, Gramma's tale should get the same careful scrutiny every poster gets.  That's not only fair, it's respectful, to boot.     

(Message last edited Feb-23rd-04  11:27 AM.)


11. "Re: "Let's all be good, okay""
Posted by Albanyguy on Feb-23rd-04 at 3:37 PM
In response to Message #10.

I couldn't agree more, Bob.  We need to maintain a healthy scepticism and question everything.  I'm new here, but I'm already learning to beware of the (relatively few) posters who seem to take the overbearing attitude that "I KNOW I'm right and I will beat you over the head until you admit it."  The most intelligent posters are the ones who welcome questions and try to provide answers and who are open to seeing where those answers might lead. 

To say "I don't agree with your theory for the following reasons" or ask "Upon what evidence do you base your claim?" is not disrespectful as long as it doesn't descend into personal invective or turn into a protracted shouting match.  We all have our theories and, no matter how much we like and respect each other, they can't all be right.

For example, the David Anthony theory rests upon the word of Rose Cameron.  The William Borden theory rests upon the word of Henry Hathaway and Ellen Eagan.  This means that if Anthony was the killer, then Hathaway and Eagan are wrong.  If William was the killer, then Rose Cameron was wrong. 

It only complicates matters that (after 112 years) the facts surrounding the Borden case are often so contradictory and so open to interpretation.  But any corroboration is helpful when assessing the theories.

Is there any independent corroboration (i.e., from a source other than Rose Cameron) that Lizzzie knew a man named David Anthony?  Or, assuming that Cameron was correct and that Lizzie knew and was visited by David Anthony at Maplecroft in the 1920s, is there any evidence that she knew him in 1892?  It just seems irresponsible to me to say "Well, she COULD have known him and kept her relationship with him a secret" or "Well, since we don't know where Anthony was on August 4, 1892, he COULD have been at 92 Second Street."

We do know, beyond any doubt or wishful thinking, that Lizzie and Bridget were present at the scene of the crime and they are the only two suspects about whom we can say this.  That alone has to tip the balance heavily against either one or both of them.          


12. "Re: "Let's all be good, okay""
Posted by Raymond on Feb-23rd-04 at 6:32 PM
In response to Message #11.

I think we should let "Gramma" have the space to tell her story, complete. THEN you can begin to examine it. Questioning mid-story may cause changes, etc.

I do have one comment on this solution. I can see a Prosecutor not looking forward to convict a crazy person ("not guilty by reason of insanity") and letting the cover-up go by (for whatever reason). I can't see Knowlton agreeing to covering-up a boyfriend who killed his girlfriends parents. Plenty of good publicity in the latter.

As "Marcus Vinnicius" says in "Quo Vadis", "there's no glory in defeating a weak enemy".


13. "Re: "Let's all be good, okay""
Posted by diana on Feb-23rd-04 at 6:43 PM
In response to Message #11.

Excellent points, Michael. There's definitely not too much out there about David Anthony other than the profile from Rebello that Kat posted earlier. So it is difficult to trace a link between Anthony and Lizzie independent of the information provided by Ruby Cameron.

Terence Duniho speculated briefly about a connection between the two in an essay on the LAB website. Here's some edited excerpts:

"What about Gustavus Franklin Swift (1839-1903), business partner of David Mason Anthony, Sr. - who was father to David M. Anthony, Jr., the man whom 84-year-old Ruby Cameron of Cherryfield, Maine claimed (in 1984) committed the murders of both Andrew and Abby? G. F. Swift was the founder of Swift & Company, the well-known meat packing company. ... [In 1885], with David M. Anthony Sr. and Charles W. Anthony (David's brother) as partners, he started Anthony, Swift & Co..

... Charles W. Anthony was the owner of the sloop yacht Mabel F. Swift ... which was at Marion, Massachusetts on 27 July 1892 (eight days before the murders), stopping at Blake's Point, with Lizzie among 13 ladies who were cruising with a party of friends (now there's an omen!). Perhaps this connection between Lizzie and the uncle of the young man Ruby Cameron said committed the murders is an essential clue to the ultimate solution! ...

... If Lizzie knew Charles W. Anthony, did she also have an acquaintance with his brother David, and therefore perhaps with David's son, the man whom Ruby Cameron says was the true murderer . . . and Lizzie's lover?"(Duniho, All Things Swift)

As I said, I've deleted parts of the above that didn't seem to pertain to this particular topic.  The full essay is, of course, available on the Lizzie Andrew Borden website.

I have to admit that I'm having some trouble with the scenario painting Anthony as the murderer.  One problem for me is the introduction of Ruby's mother and Nora Donohue into the house that morning. (Post #87/'The lock on the front door' thread: "There was more than one domestic in the house to help tidy up. ... they hitched a ride on the meat wagon to second street") Did they arrive with David around 9 - 9:30 a.m. and stay in the house with him and with Abby's body while Bridget chatted with the Kelly girl and washed the windows.  Or did they arrive after Andrew came home?  How did no one see them entering or leaving the house? 







14. "Re: What the HELL are you taking about?"
Posted by njwolfe on Feb-23rd-04 at 9:02 PM
In response to Message #10.



(Message last edited Feb-24th-04  7:57 AM.)


15. "Re: "Let's all be good, okay""
Posted by Susan on Feb-23rd-04 at 9:51 PM
In response to Message #13.

Thanks for pointing us to that info, Diana, very interesting reading!  The whole David Anthony idea raises so many questions in my mind, things such as why didn't he and Lizzie just elope, why murder?  Yes, Lizzie would have probably been cut out of Andrew's will, but, if she truly loved him, was not his salary enough for her?  It is an interesting theory and I'd like to hear more about it if at all possible. 


16. "Re: "Let's all be good, okay""
Posted by lydiapinkham on Feb-24th-04 at 12:28 AM
In response to Message #15.


Diana has a good point about the servants.  Why would he bring a cleaning crew along for a unpremeditated crime of passion?  And Susan has the same issue with elopement that I had.  They surely wouldn't starve on David's income (unless there is some kind of feud between the Bordens and the Anthonys), so why would they need Andrew's blessing?  Lizzie was quite old enough to make her own decisions.

Could we have the wrong Anthony as a lover?  Charles did have her on the yacht the week before.  Maybe he HAD her, and his wife (he was married, wasn't he?) objected to an elopement.  Charles could provide objections of all sorts all round.  Are there any pictures of Charles? Maybe he had a motorcycle as well as a yacht. . . .

--Lyddie


17. "Re: "Let's all be good, okay""
Posted by Kat on Feb-24th-04 at 1:27 AM
In response to Message #13.

Now Lydia was getting me confused because she has the dramatist's instinct to weave a tale into even more interesting patterns but in this case I think Ray is wise to caution until more story is learned. (Or look it up.) -but I find the true culprit is either Terence or Rebello.
Rebello says David Anthony was survived by his brother Harold H. Anthony.
I've checked everywhere for a Charles W. Anthony, and only find him with his yacht sloop "Swift", let alone  whether he was married!

In David's Obit it specifies:
"A brother, Harold H. Anthony, and niece, Miss Ruth Anthony, are his only immediate surviving relatives."--December 5, 1924.


18. "Re: "Let's all be good, okay""
Posted by Kat on Feb-24th-04 at 1:46 AM
In response to Message #16.

BTW:  The servant named Nora Donohue was variously described in the papers as Bridget Sullivan, the Borden's maid, or as Nora, a maid of the Anthonys.

"[Ruby's] mother and the Borden's maid -- whom she[Ruby] refers to as Nora -- were friends."

That makes more sense to me.
Apparently "Nora" ran to the Anthony's to get "Maggie" (Ruby's mother) and John Cameron came with the meat wagon to help spirit  away David.  The  Anthonys lived at 368 N. Main.
But a note is made elsewhere that there is no proof Lizzie and David had ever met.

Did you-all notice when "gramma" said "Maggie, hmmm?"


19. "Re: "Let's all be good, okay""
Posted by diana on Feb-24th-04 at 2:38 AM
In response to Message #17.

Kat --
I can't find a reference to David's uncle Charles W. Anthony other than in All Things Swifteither.  According to Terence, Uncle Charles had passed away prior to 1900 -- well before David succumbed to his injuries in 1924.  Maybe David's brother, Harold, didn't get a mention in the essay because the focus was on the Swifts?

The genealogical charts Terence provides at the end of the essay have the Milnes, the Bordens, the Swifts, but not the Anthonys unfortunately. 


20. "Re: "Let's all be good, okay""
Posted by Kat on Feb-24th-04 at 2:49 AM
In response to Message #19.

Thanks Diana.
There is a book listed in this one Ruby Cameron article which the reporter, Kate Boylan, found out held Anthony info:
"The Yankee of the Yards", 1928, with mentions " back as far as 1876."


21. "Re: "Let's all be good, okay""
Posted by Kat on Feb-24th-04 at 3:58 AM
In response to Message #20.

Now we need to find a relationship between RUTH WARING and DAVID ANTHONY.
Ruth is married to Ellis Waring, cousin to Dwight who married Jennings' daughter!
That Bernie Sullivan article says she is the niece of David!


22. "Oh, my God!"
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Feb-24th-04 at 4:19 PM
In response to Message #21.

The missing baby must've been in the hip-bath!


23. "Re: "Let's all be good, okay""
Posted by lydiapinkham on Feb-24th-04 at 4:27 PM
In response to Message #20.

My head is reeling, Kat and Diana.  Why, why, WHY does everyone use different nicknames without elaborations and leave no clear trails behind them?  I'm sorry, Kat, to muddy the waters by bringing Charles into the equation, but the people who gave accounts later on seem to have a bad habit of mixing up names.  Charles seems to be old enough and established enough to have been married for some time; he also would have had opportunity for seduction aboard the sloop.  Of course, Lizzie would not have time to know she was pregnant, but it would account for parental outrage.  This all gets to be like looking at an old family album, with only a few of the subjects labelled.
Is "Yankee of the Yards" about the Anthony family?
--Lyddie


24. "Re: "Let's all be good, okay""
Posted by Gramma on Feb-24th-04 at 8:40 PM
In response to Message #23.

Ruth Waring was David Anthony's niece. She also had ccustody of the old meat market records. Even with Mrs Brigham trying to persuade her on the phone she would not see me in 1985. She was incensed by Ruby's story and would not let the meat market records out. I thought it may have been possible to see if the meat wagon was in the neighborhood of 92 Second street on August 4th.

Lyddie,
"Yankee of the Yards" was the story of Gustavus Swift's rise to fame.
More things Swift! D M Anthony is mentioned in it I believe. Been a long time since I read that one. The Meat Market in Fall River was Anthony and Swift........THE Swift as most people would say. It was tied of Gustavus' business.

Gramma


25. "Re: "Let's all be good, okay""
Posted by Gramma on Feb-24th-04 at 9:08 PM
In response to Message #24.

I meant to tell you this. Ruth (Anthony) Waring was the daughter of Harold Anthony, David's brother.

Gramma


26. "Re: "Let's all be good, okay""
Posted by Gramma on Feb-24th-04 at 9:14 PM
In response to Message #16.

Lyddie,

Forgive me for going backwards here. I have been gone for a day and am trying to catch up.

You ask:
"Why would he bring a cleaning crew along for a unpremeditated crime of passion?"
Answer, he didn't! They had come along to go shopping on their day off. It was a free ride downtown. When the murder of Abby occurred then everyone pitched in as they were told to do. For Nora and Maggie it was their boss's son they were protecting. For Bridget, it was her employer.

Gramma


27. "Re: "Let's all be good, okay""
Posted by Kat on Feb-24th-04 at 9:47 PM
In response to Message #25.

In David's Obit it specifies:
"A brother, Harold H. Anthony, and niece, Miss Ruth Anthony, are his only immediate surviving relatives."--December 5, 1924.

Yup, there it is.
She is cousin-in-law (if there is such a thing) to Dwight Waring who married Jennings' daughter!

So we have Jennings' daughter marrying Dwight who has a cousin who married David Anthony's niece.

I think by then the brother was rich-
"David's brother, Harold H. Anthony, died in 1935 at age 59.  The funeral notice stated he was an executive in the Boston office of Swift & Co. and a 'prominent Swansea citizen and official.' "
--Standard Times, Probably Jan. 13, 1985.

(Message last edited Feb-24th-04  9:55 PM.)


28. "Re: "Let's all be good, okay""
Posted by lydiapinkham on Feb-24th-04 at 11:59 PM
In response to Message #27.


Thank you Gramma and Kat for the additional geneaology.  I wish I were better than I am at climbing family trees, but I get pretty confused among all those leaves!

--Lyddie


29. "Re: "Let's all be good, okay""
Posted by Kat on Feb-25th-04 at 12:50 AM
In response to Message #28.

If you have the Casebook by Williams, there is pg. 262-3, Mr. Ellis Waring and Ruth Waring, and in de Mille's book, you will find Jennings' daughter in there, Mrs. Dwight Waring, who gave the Hip-bath Collection" to the FRHS.  Some of Jennings' papers are there, including the Preliminary Hearing.
The Hip-bath Collection is reviewed in Proceedings, Barbara Ashton, 211.

Check those sources to find the characters.


30. "Re: "Let's all be good, okay""
Posted by lydiapinkham on Feb-25th-04 at 12:56 AM
In response to Message #29.

Thanks for the Jennings clarification, Kat.  I'm afraid the only one of those sources I have easy access to is deMille's.

--Lyddie


31. "Re: "Let's all be good, okay""
Posted by Gramma on Feb-25th-04 at 10:36 AM
In response to Message #29.

Kat,
You have an interesting point that should be mentioned. The hipbath collection has "some" of the Jennings papers. The Jennings grandsons have more.

Gramma


32. "Re: "Let's all be good, okay""
Posted by Gramma on Feb-25th-04 at 10:41 AM
In response to Message #19.

"Maybe David's brother, Harold, didn't get a mention in the essay because the focus was on the Swifts? "

There was such a thing as living "low-key" and "out of the limelight".
some people prefer it that way. If Harold worked for Swifts' Boston office then he definitely would have been privy to many of the "inside" stories. I wonder.........?

Gramma


33. "Re: "Let's all be good, okay""
Posted by Kat on Feb-26th-04 at 12:33 AM
In response to Message #31.

It's been said that Mrs. Waring gave all the things to the FRHS, and then asked for a few things back.  I don't know if this is true, but I do believe there was stuff at least witheld.
Where are the Jenning's grandsons now?  I mean are they *around*?


34. "Re: "Let's all be good, okay""
Posted by Gramma on Feb-26th-04 at 11:34 AM
In response to Message #33.

The Jennings grandsons were at the conference in 1992. I do not know what has happened since I spoke to them there.

Gramma