Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden Topic Name: HOW do we know when Abby died?  

1. "HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by Jimmy Windeskog on Sep-18th-03 at 8:33 AM

Is it not very difficult to exactly know when a person died? From what I know you cant even to day know exactly know when a got killed (se the OJ-trail), I believe its much more easy today than 1892.
So, why it is assumed that Abby died when we say she did today. Is it not possible that she died sooner or earlier?

(Please excuse my bad English, I am from Sweden…)


2. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by harry on Sep-18th-03 at 9:23 AM
In response to Message #1.

Hi Jimmy, welcome back.  You are correct, it is very hard, if not impossible, to calculate an exact time of death then or today. I don't think we can just use the medical testimony to determine Mrs. Borden's death. The doctor's varied from 1 to 2 hours prior to Andrew's death. Taking an average, or 1-1/2 hours, and subtracting that from 11 o'clock leaves a time of 9:30.

It is probably somewhere between 9 and 9:30.

If we assume Bridget to be telling the truth we know it's after 9. This is from the trial (page 227+) where she is being cross-examined:

"Q.  Are you able to fix the time or about the time when you received this direction from Mrs. Borden the last time you saw her alive?
A.  Well, I can't exactly tell the time, but I think it was about nine o'clock."

Then she goes on to describe what she (Bridget) did before starting to wash the windows:

Q.  ... After you received this direction from her where did you go and what did you begin to do?
A.  I was out in the kitchen.
Q.  What were you doing in the kitchen?
A.  Oh, I was cleaning off my stove and putting things in their places, and so forth, and when I got ready I went in in the dining-room and sitting-room and left down the windows which I was going to wash, and went down cellar and got a pail for to take some water.

.....

Q.  From there you say you went down cellar?
A.  Yes, sir.
Q.  What did you get down cellar?
A.  A wooden pail.
Q.  Where did you then go?
A.  I came upstairs. In the kitchen closet I found a brush which was to wash the windows with. I filled my pail with water in the sink and took it out doors. As I was  outside the backdoor Lizzie Borden appeared in the back entry, and says, "Maggie, are you going to wash the windows?" I says, "Yes." I said, "You needn't lock the door; I will be out around here; but you can lock it if you want to; I can get the water in the barn."

I don't think Lizzie would have attacked Abby until Bridget was safely out of the house. So if we assume Bridget's time of "about nine" is correct we would have to take the time it took Bridget to do all that she said and add that to 9 o'clock. Then Lizzie would have to go back upstairs, make whatever preparations she needed, and commit the murder.



(Message last edited Sep-18th-03  9:25 AM.)


3. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by rays on Sep-18th-03 at 10:57 AM
In response to Message #1.

We do know when Nicole and Ron were killed: "after 11pm" said the ME who did the autopsy based on the forensic evidence. The empty stomach contents of Nicole say death was about 3 hours after her 8pm supper. Ron left work at 10pm, then went somewhere to eat (his stomach contents had food); most restaurants forbid the hired help from eating there. Last and not least, the red liquid blood trickling down the sidewald when the police arrived at 12:15am says they were murdered just before midnight.

The real question is why these facts have been long suppressed in the corporate media. You can refer to the Links section for more info.


4. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by rays on Sep-18th-03 at 11:00 AM
In response to Message #1.

Since Abby was last seen around/after 9am, when Andrew J Borden left the house, and was not seen later, her time of death was afterwards.
When Andrew returned home about 10:45? (seen by a neighbor), that puts his death around 11am. The doctors also examined the stomach contents, as they both ate at the same time. Its in the records.
There is no mystery when you know the facts.
...
One question for you: why did Sweden reject the Euro? (There is no right or wrong answer, its just politics.)

(Message last edited Sep-18th-03  11:01 AM.)


5. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by Jimmy Windeskog on Sep-18th-03 at 1:27 PM
In response to Message #4.

Thanks everyone!

So, the whole case when Abby died are in fact mostly based on Sullivan’s version? Is it just me who think that VERY much is based on what she said, I have always thought that Sullivan must have been in on the murders too if Lizzie was it?

If Sullivan is liar, could not Abby have been a lot later than that? And if John, Sullivan and Lizzie all were in on it, could not Abby (in theory) got killed very early in the morning or even in the night?

-----
And we rejected the Euro to keep the economic power within our own nation.


6. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by Benjamin on Sep-18th-03 at 1:47 PM
In response to Message #5.

Hejsan Jimmy!
  Hur står det till?  Jag bodde i Sverige för tio år sedan i Sundbyberg. Jag fortfarande har vänner som bor i Svedala, Oskarshamn, och Stockholm.  Jag längtar efter Sveriges svala sommar.
Hur kom du att bli intresserad av Lizzie Borden? Finns de många böcker om henne där?  De människorna som finns på denna sida är så roliga och vänliga.  Jag upptäckte denna sida för några månader sedan. De vet så hemskt mycket. Jag hoppas att allting är bra hos dig.  Hälsa på mig om du vill!
Med vänliga hälsningar,
          Benjamin


7. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by Jimmy Windeskog on Sep-18th-03 at 5:36 PM
In response to Message #6.

Hejsan Benjamin.
Kul med att hitta en annan svensk här. Började läsa om Lizzie efter att ha bläddat igenom en sådan där populärhistorisk tunnbok där det fanns några sidor om henne. När jag några dagar efter det sprang på Victoria Lincons bok om Lizzie så köpte jag den och var efter det så att säga fast i ämnet. Detta var väl kring nyår 2001. Nu ser jag väl om jag kan få ihop en bok eller en seria artiklar om henne, finns ju SÅ lite skrivet på svenska om Lizzie.

Låter själv som du inte bor i Sverige längre, vågar jag gissa på USA? Hur kom du in på fallet?

JUst denna sida är den överlägset bästa jag sett om Lizzie. Dels för att den jar så enormt mycket inffo, men det finns ju så väldigt många och trevliga människor att lära sig saker ifrån här i forumet.

Fridens liljor!


8. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by Kat on Sep-18th-03 at 7:16 PM
In response to Message #5.

That's very interesting to contemplate an earlier time of death for Abby.
If a later time was proposed, there would be difficulty proving that, but an earlier time is something I have also thought of.
That would include, as you say, a conspiracy of lying, by Bridget Sullivan, John Morse and Lizzie Borden.
If Andrew was not too curious about Abby's whereabouts that morning, (if he was much suspicious he might have mentioned it downtown, or asked around, or showed some concern,) then since only our suspects claim they saw Abby that morning, it might just be possible Abby was killed much earlier.
To have an empty stomach, then, the main requirement would be that she was killed a minimum of 3 or 4 hours after supper Wednesday and it seems Mrs. Dr. Bowen would be the last outsider to have seen Abby Wednesday about 6 p.m. until ?.  Abby would also have to already have come out of rigor mortis when found...and as I recall, Dolan didn't make any autopsy notes as to rigor.
So what time do you think Abby could have been killed to meet these parameters?


9. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by Benjamin on Sep-19th-03 at 10:59 AM
In response to Message #8.

I was also thinking that even though forensics was minimal back then, it's not too likely that Abby was killed before Andrew left the house. It was stated that since she was a short, but big woman (circa 154cm men 90 km)that the impact of her body hitting the floor would certainly have made quite a noise if not also shaking the house a bit.  I would think that if Andrew were still home that he would definitely investigate the noise considering his obsession with security.
  Hej Jimmy,
      Jag faktiskt föddes i Atlanta, men för några år sedan fick chansen att bo i Sverige. Tyvärr kunde jag inte hitta på ett sätt att få ett visa så att jag kunde bo där längre och få ett riktigt jobb. Efter ett år var jag tvungen att återkomma till USA.  Ännu är jag inte säker på att jag var i Sverige olagligt!   Jag bor nu i Chicago men kommer att flytta några mil norrut så att jag kan bo lite närmare universitetet.  Och du då?  Var i Sverige bor du?
Angående Lizzie böcker, rekommenderar jag att du kollar under "Second Street Second-Hand Shop" och sedan trycker på "Book Recommendations".  Där finns många goda böcker där. (men på engelska, förstås). Jag har Arnold Brown's book och den är god. Han har en teori som låter möjlig, men till slut blir en del otrolig. Denna bok har många foto.  40 Whacks också har många bra foto. Ibland säljer människor böcker på denna sida och jag tror de skulle vara villiga att skicka en bok till Sverige. Du kan också kolla på Amazon.com eller Amazon.uk.  Lycka till med det!
  Ha de så bra!
        Benjamin


10. "You two just KNOCK it off right NOW!"
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Sep-19th-03 at 11:20 AM
In response to Message #9.

Naw, I'm kidding!  Imagine, an international discussion on the board - how cool!

In those days they were far from thinking about using a rectal thermometer on a corpse, unfortunately.  It seems that the most telling detail was that Abby's pool of blood was thickening and getting a skin on it, something that wouldn't have happened if she'd been killed the same time as Andrew.


11. "Re: You two just KNOCK it off right NOW!"
Posted by Benjamin on Sep-19th-03 at 3:43 PM
In response to Message #10.

I was wondering when someone was going to notice!


12. "Re: You two just KNOCK it off right NOW!"
Posted by rays on Sep-19th-03 at 4:47 PM
In response to Message #10.

Actually, the testimony of the policeman who saw that body was that her blood was black and dry to the touch; hence over an hour. Andy's blood was still red and liquid.

It is sheer fantasy to speculate that Abby was killed much earlier than the 9:30 date. Her 90% solid stomach contents say (?) about an hour after eating (my estimate). Since JVM saw her alive when he left around 8:30, that is the earliest time window. And Andy left just before (?) 9:30. (MY recollection, Kat can check A R Brown or other authors.)


13. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by rays on Sep-19th-03 at 4:50 PM
In response to Message #9.

Yes, David Kent's "40 Whacks" is the best current book to give an over-all look at this case. Arnold R Brown solved this century old murder, since he has the best explanation for it. Rick Geary's provides a very quick overview of the case.

Others are free to disagree IF they can point to any better book published before or after 1991.


14. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by Benjamin on Sep-19th-03 at 4:55 PM
In response to Message #13.

I agree with Rays. I think the stomach contents pretty much set the time parameters for when Abby died.  (of course three day old mutton might look fairly digested even before you eat it.  Ugh)


15. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by rays on Sep-19th-03 at 5:01 PM
In response to Message #14.

But Andy's stomach contents was about 10% solid, compared to 90% to Abby. It takes about 2 to 3 hours to digest a meal, and provide a clock to time the murder. Or so I read.


16. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by diana on Sep-19th-03 at 5:32 PM
In response to Message #13.

OK -- relating to this particular point, i.e. when did Abby die -- I'm putting forth one of my favorite books, Lizzie Didn't Do It! by William Masterton (with a 2000 publication date, BTW, Ray).

I think this author argues quite persuasively that Abby's time of death may have been very close to Andrew's.  

I know Doug and Bob Cooke heard Masterton speak recently.  I wonder if the professor touched on his theory about time of death on that occasion?


17. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by Kat on Sep-20th-03 at 1:17 AM
In response to Message #15.

Yeas, I had the stomachs reversed.  You're right Abby had food and Andrew didn't.
But still, Abby could have gone downstairs for a snack Wednesday night late(or early, as the case may be) and had partially digested food when killed.  (Lured to the spare room after her kitchen visit).
If the story of a note was given Andrew early, he might not have questioned too closely where Abby was.  She could have been dead in the guest room hours before he left.  (But what would be the point of that?)*.
In my mind, the note would fit both parameters and a snack as well.
Masterton deals with a note and an unexpected meal.  I think possibly it can work both ways: earlier OR later.  

*If Lizzie wants it thought that they both died near the same time (hence: *I think I heard her come in*), I think even She could figure that the authorities would know the obvious, so having Abby killed much earlier resolves what?
The only benefit might be that the killer didn't need to wait inside the house longer, but leave and return?

(Message last edited Sep-20th-03  1:19 AM.)


18. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by rays on Sep-20th-03 at 2:49 PM
In response to Message #16.

Masterton's book seemed to be rushed to print (many simple errors that could have been caught by a checker). Its MAIN purpose was to deny the factuality of the blood evidence in the Borden Murders because of its relevance to the murders of Ron and Nicole (June 1994). The red liquid blood found after midnight says they were murdered just before midnight, not TWO HOURS earlier.

Nobody has ever questioned the order of deaths before.

Masterton should own up to his hidden agenda, IMO.


19. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by breezy on Sep-20th-03 at 4:17 PM
In response to Message #5.

Hi Jimmy If Lizzie didn't do the crime then she knew who did. And if she did the deed she had some help. Uncle John visits with no luggage (coincidence?) and Bridget is conveniently washing the windows and even more convenient is Emma vising friends in another town. Hmmm - thats just my take on it


20. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by Kat on Sep-20th-03 at 10:21 PM
In response to Message #19.

It's convenient that the police are out of town on a picnic, and so was Sarah Whitehead.
It's convenient that Lizzie had just had her period and so there was a bloody bucket in the cellar.
It's convenient that Alice Russell and Dr. Bowen were forewarned of impending possible tragedy.
It's convenient that Morse picked up the eggs from the Swansea farm Wednesday so the man would not deliver them himself, Thursday. 

(Message last edited Sep-20th-03  10:32 PM.)


21. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by rays on Sep-21st-03 at 4:40 PM
In response to Message #16.

To be diplomatic, Masterton is full of it. NOBODY has ever created such an absurd argument on this case before. Perhaps its just his old age and wishful thinking?


22. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by breezy on Sep-21st-03 at 7:59 PM
In response to Message #20.

Haha. Do we smell a bunch of rats? Or are all those things really just coincidences? Sounds like it was planned but then again ???


23. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by haulover on Sep-21st-03 at 10:05 PM
In response to Message #16.

abby was killed earlier than andrew.  that's one fact we can rely on.  this is something that would have been obvious to any observer.  by all accounts, this is the case.  (i don't understand why an author would choose to screw around with this--if it's the truth he's looking for.)  her blood was thick, drying.  her body was cold and clammy.   the time difference is significant -- not slight.

btw, i've detected some confusion about the term "rigor mortis."  it means the stiffening of a body after it's dead.  about 500 years ago, i was an apprentice mortician for a year.  i did not pursue this career potential, but i've had hands-on experience.  a dead body can only get stiffer as time passes.  it does not "loosen up" at some point after death.  it becomes something like a wooden or plastic doll--an inanimate object.  and that's it.  if abby were killed about two hours before when found -- her limbs (for ex., her arm when manipulated by a doctor to check for a pulse)-- it would have been pliable but not "loose."  moving it would not have caused other parts of the body to move with it.  take, for ex., the configuration of her feet -- you would have had to make an effort to change that. the feet would not fall "here or there," because the joints have stiffened.  i'm thinking roughly in terms of two hours.  also this is a point that needs to be made in terms of theories about how people might have "moved" the body.  more like "rubbery" doll than "rag" doll.

i know this is grim stuff here, but i mean to point out that abby is not a loose object.  when she is found, she has "set" as she fell.





24. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by Susan on Sep-22nd-03 at 2:52 AM
In response to Message #23.

I think its fascinating that you had that hands-on training, the things that you learned firsthand.  My understanding is that some time after rigor mortis sets in, it goes away, is this incorrect?  I have a friend who wanted to become a mortician and went on body pick-up as part of his on the job training.  He had said that it was a sort of race against time with a fresh body to pick it up and drop it off before it relaxed and let loose with the bladder and bowel contents, which I assumed that he meant was after the rigor mortis released.  For the short amount of time he did it, he had a plethora of horror stories that he has shared, was that the turning point for you? 


25. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by Kat on Sep-22nd-03 at 3:59 AM
In response to Message #24.

I was also under the impression that after 24 hours rigor usually is gone.
It's in my Forensic books how it starts, progresses and ends.
That's interesting about the pliabilty of a body.  I can see that it would not ever be limp again.  That sort of makes sense.


26. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by rays on Sep-22nd-03 at 10:09 AM
In response to Message #23.

My reading (only) is that rigor mortis begins after a few hours, then goes away w/ the start of decomposition. Lactic acid build-up in the muscles? It is sometimes "instantaneous" when it occurs during strenuous activity (the example cited is in combat).
I'll concede superior knowledge to physicians etc.
I neither had not seek "hands-on" knowledge.


27. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by Kat on Sep-23rd-03 at 1:53 AM
In response to Message #1.

Back to the original question.
My question is what would be the point of Abby dying sooner?
(And Diana says to me that Abby wouldn't be dressed as she was found, if she had died in the night or dawn-ish)


28. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by Susan on Sep-23rd-03 at 2:21 AM
In response to Message #27.

I think the point of Abby dying sooner in time to Andrew makes it look like the killer was only in the house for a shorter period of time, so it doesn't seem so suspicious that Lizzie didn't come across them in her travels through the house.  Closer death times would mean that it was the same person who did it and we know Lizzie didn't have much time after Andrew's death to clean up let alone to clean up after 2 murders, she looks less suspicious that way.  Its something in Lizzie's mind set that makes this work for her, no one else seems to try to push forth this idea.

It may have had something to do with her hearing Abby come in and suggesting for people to go look for her.  Lizzie didn't say exactly when she heard this, just that she did and the impression is that she heard it sometime around after finding Andrew's body, which would lead me to believe that Abby would have to had died after Andrew in order for what she said to be believable.  The deaths would have to be closer in time.  Just my speculation here, about all I can think of at the moment. 


29. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by Benjamin on Sep-23rd-03 at 10:42 AM
In response to Message #28.

If we assume that Lizzie was telling the truth that she heard someone "come in" and she assumed it was Abby, it could be that what Lizzie actually heard was the murderer going out?  That would be interesting. And creepy, to think the murderer was still there and cutting it quite fine in escaping.


30. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by Bob Gutowski on Sep-23rd-03 at 11:00 AM
In response to Message #29.

Yeah, we've floated that one around, but it kind of falls apart when you consider the length of time it took for Liz to suggest that "someone" look for Abby: "Oh, I JUST REMEMBERED, I heard her come back, maybe."  Not an immediate "Maggie, run up front and call for Mrs. Borden, in case she came back!" or even the more logical "Maggie, we've got to get out of here - there's a killer on the loose!"


31. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by rays on Sep-23rd-03 at 11:22 AM
In response to Message #27.

Given the other facts in the case, and suppositions, it seems that if Abby had left immediately on that errand (<let the room go, nobody is coming>) she would have been spared. And maybe Andy as well (since WSB would not have had his nager and hatred stoked).

About Abby dying sooner: NOBODY RESPONSIBLE HAS EVER SUGGESTED THIS!!!
The only suggestion on the time came from Masterton, who was driven to claim a later death. (Yes, eating something around 10:30 would have put undigested food in her stomach. BUT that doesn't explain the black clotted blood and relatively cooler temperature.)


32. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by rays on Sep-23rd-03 at 11:25 AM
In response to Message #28.

IF Abby did die closer to Andy's death, that would tend to deny Bridget's rock-solid alibi (outside at 9:30), and lessen any guilt about Lizzie (inside the house at 9:30, "down in the WC").
Is this the intent of those who claim a later death for Abby?


33. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by rays on Sep-23rd-03 at 11:27 AM
In response to Message #29.

Lizzie probably (?) heard a heavy tread from a 200-pound person walking up the back stairs, like Abby would do if she returned.
Can you tell who exactly is walking by their footfall (light or heavy)?


34. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by Kat on Sep-23rd-03 at 10:56 PM
In response to Message #27.

I may not have been clear but it was my understanding of the original question that Jimmy wanted to know what we thought of the possibility of Abby dying earlier.  I said sooner...that meant sooner than she was...which I did try to mean before she was.  I think my term was probably misleading.
It's the reverse of Masterton, if my understanding of Jimmy's question is right.

So when I have been postulating how that could be...that Abby was killed like around dawn, rather than 9, I was trying to figure out if that would hold up under scrutiny.
The main problem, if we assume there are conspirators in Bridget, Lizzie and Morse, might be Abby's clothes.  If she was still in her nightgown that would be a sure sign she had died sooner (not later).  Unless someone changed her clothes?  My gawdess I can't imagine that!

Anyway I was hoping Jimmy would answer why that would matter:  hinder the case, help the case?  -- If Abby had died earlier...what would that accomplish to benefit the murderer.


35. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by Kat on Sep-23rd-03 at 11:10 PM
In response to Message #32.

Bridget has not a rock-solid alibi at 9:30.
She has one at 10 a.m. to say 10:05, period.
THe first time you quote depends upon Bridget's idea of the time, which is a bit loose.  We hear she talked over the fence to Mary Doolan but we only guess the time according to Bridget herself, you see, because we have no corroboration from Mary Doolan.  We have not her statement.  We have a loose statement made by(probably) Harrington.
Witness Statements, pg. 8:
"In the morning, shortly before the murder, Dr. Kelly’s girl, Mary, was talking to Bridget over the fence, neither saw anyone in or around the yard."

--That's it for your 9:30 rock-solid alibi.  There is no time listed.  Some people don't necessarilly believe Bridget, anyway, as to time and where she was.
That can be an individual determination. 

At 10 Bridget was seen by 2 witnesses that have nothing to gain and who give their idea of time by their own reckoning -- George Pettee and Mrs. Churchill.


36. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by rays on Sep-25th-03 at 7:40 PM
In response to Message #35.

YES, Bridget's alibi is rock solid. This is proved from deduction.

Bridget, almost from the first hour, was never a suspect. Hence the statements NOT recorded must have been her alibi. The reason is wasn't recorded is that it wasn't necessary to do so. (But there may have been police notes at the time.)
The police, then or now, aren't going to waste time documenting why a person is not a suspect. IMO


37. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by Kat on Sep-25th-03 at 8:14 PM
In response to Message #36.

There might be something in the Hilliard Papers and I don't rule that out.
But no, not rock solid.  No alibi in this case is rock solid as far as I can tell.
My opinion.
Besides we don't know when Abby was murdered ;  we have a parameter.  Bridget at the fence talking to theKelly maid falls into the parameter but does not prove anything.
Please remember that some may think Bridget is involved in this so there always room for doubt.
Not everyone is as sure as you because they/we are trying to make up their own minds.


38. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by Tina-Kate on Sep-25th-03 at 10:05 PM
In response to Message #37.

Kat, do you think JVM's alibi is questionable?  If so, may I ask why, in yr opinion?

Of course, there's the whole general "weirdness" of Morse & "how convenient" (or INconvenient).  All I've ever been able to really confirm is that his alibi seems TOO solid.


39. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by Kat on Sep-25th-03 at 11:28 PM
In response to Message #38.

Witness Statements pg. 29:

"To prove the truth or falsity of the above statement, I went to the home of Mr. Emery at No. 4 Weybosst street. Mrs. Emery said Mr. Morse did come there at about 9.40, and left there at 11.20, or thereabouts."

Morse left the Borden's house supposedly around 8:45 a.m. according to him.
It takes him almost an hour to get to Weybosset, a mile and a quarter away.
That blows it for Abby's murder, in my opinion.

We had been discussing the 9- 9:30 a.m. period and Abby's murder.

I don't know about Andrew's murder, because of the possibility of conspiracy or multiple murderers.  If one kills and another kills then they are safe from each other by accusation.

I am suspicious of the Emery woman's story though I realize the upstairs boarder corroborated Mrs. Emery's recollection of when Morse left.

[edit to fix spelling of Weybosset]

(Message last edited Sep-26th-03  4:28 AM.)


40. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by rays on Sep-26th-03 at 11:36 AM
In response to Message #39.

One hour to walk 1.25 miles? That's awful slow, and could be challenged. Didn't JVM first go to the Post Office or ? That would account for the travel time. I estimate 30 mintes tops to walk a mile, even if uphill (which should take longer).
Any more details?


41. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by Kat on Sep-26th-03 at 1:16 PM
In response to Message #40.

You're the first to mention the post office.
My problem with that was before the murders (and even after) people didn't recognize John Morse.
So what we have is his story that he stopped at the P.O.
Remember the *more info* was in the first case he then said he took a car to Weybosset and then next said he walked?
I was thinking it might take 20-30 minutes to walk a mile and a quarter?
If he did take a train he had even more time.
He can kill Abby at 9, clean up and get a car to Emery's in 55 minutes.


42. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by rays on Sep-26th-03 at 3:18 PM
In response to Message #41.

Assuming 3 mph, that's 20 minutes; if slower 2 mph, that's 30 minutes. Ever time your walks? One mph is really slow.

My unaided memory popped up with a visit to the Post Office; was that afterwards?

The important thing is nobody ever questioned his presence after 8:45 (or when he did leave). Not Lizzie, not Bridget, not any neighbor. But these may not have noticed a stranger walking along Second St, it was too common.
...
Speculation about JVM killing Abby? But he, like Lizzie and Bridget, have an alibi for one of the murders. Neither one present that morning could have done both.

Logical solution: then an person UNKNOWN must have done it.

(Message last edited Sep-26th-03  3:20 PM.)


43. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by njwolfe on Sep-26th-03 at 8:56 PM
In response to Message #42.

I'm with Rays on this one, I believe a stranger (butcher) hired
by Morse did the dastardly deed.


44. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by Kat on Sep-27th-03 at 1:55 AM
In response to Message #42.

If we look at *alibis* critically and unbiased, I'd say :
Morse had no alibi for Abby...did have an alibi for Andrew.
Bridget had no alibi for Abby or for Andrew.
Lizzie had no alibi for Abby or for Andrew.

-Bridget depends on a sighting by Lizzie at 9:30 at the screen door while Bridget was just outside, having gathered her window-washing implements.
-Lizzie as well was seen at the screen door, right?
They alibi each other for approx. 9:30, but of what use is that?
They are the two peoiple together on the property when the folks are mudered, and there was a wait of 90 minutes between, yet neither saw a stanger about and neither bumped into another person in all that time.
Besides, if Abby was killed say 9:15, either could have done it and be seen by the other at 9:30, if we take into account how long an inmate of the house had to kill Andrew and clean up before being seen (Or showing themself).  That seems about the minimum of time required.
--Bridget claims she was dozing upstairs in the house 2 floors away when Andrew was killed.  There is no alibi for that murder. 
-Lizzie had a lot of problems deciding where she was and what she was doing when Andrew was killed.  She has no alibi for either killing even if you believe Lubinsky.  She was capable of being seen outside at a time the young man is guessing at, and still have murdered Andrew.
She has no alibi for Abby and seems to think she doesn't need one.  Lizzie never said where she was while Abby was being killed because somehow she claims Andrew was still home at 10.
--By *not having an alibi* I mean one which would not hold up under scrunity because there is no verification or corroboration.
--Morse at the Emery's for Andrew's killing is about the only alibi out of 6.
(6 = Morse for Abby & Andrew, Bridget for Abby & Andrew and Lizzie for Abby & Andrew.  Only 1 of those 6 permutations holds up.)

I really don't consider this my opinion.  I really consider this logical facts.


45. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by rays on Sep-27th-03 at 1:55 PM
In response to Message #44.

Bridget had an alibi for Abby, she was outside from about 9:30am to 10:15am (my memory of the times).
Lizzie had an alibi for Andrew, she was seen outside coming from the barn or backyard just before 11am.
Neither could have done both murders.
Bridget was never a suspect by the afternoon.

Reporter E Radin re-investigated the crime by interviewing some living people who still remembered the case from 1892. His last chapter brought up the possibility of Bridget doing it ("disgruntled employee"). But nobody in authority considered it, and they were there. They also had no reason to shield an alien employee.
...
This is not my opinion, it is the facts as I see them.
It does not go against the known verdict either.

(Message last edited Sep-27th-03  1:56 PM.)


46. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by Kat on Sep-27th-03 at 11:47 PM
In response to Message #45.

Abby was last seen about 9 a.m.
Bridget didn't see Lizzie and Lizzie didn't see Bridget and neither saw Abby after 9, until 9:30 when Bridget saw Lizzie & Lizzie saw Bridget.
I have read the authors and enjoyed every one, but I am more influenced by the testimony.

I was thinking about my 2nd or 3rd post of my life and I was thinking for myself and searching for truth and answers and I jumped into the fray at dark-rose between Terence and another who were arguing.
I wanted to point out that if no one saw blood on Lizzie they also did not notice any barn debris on her.
She was not in the barn, IMO.  Her hands were white.
She could still have killed Andrew in time and be seen from the street by Lubinsky (If she went outside.)  How far from the street to where a female figure stood?  He didn't pick out Lizzie.  He said it was a woman that was not Bridget, remember?


47. "Re: HOW do we know when Abby died?"
Posted by rays on Sep-28th-03 at 2:46 PM
In response to Message #46.

First, let me explain that "lazy as" Lizzie would not, IMO, get her white hands dirty grubbing around in the barn. And lady-like Lizzie would be careful to avoid getting her skirts dirty as well. Or she could have brushed off before leaving the barn. IMO

I also believe that Lizzie was only in the backyard, by the pear trees (her first alibi, and likely the truth). Only afterwards, when she realized she could be a witness to WSB's passage out the back did she change her story so she could claim "I saw nothing and nobody".
I think this explanation fits in with the known facts, and human actions.