1. "Where Was Lizzie?"
Posted by Kat on Dec-28th-03 at 7:40 AM

Prelim. 15, Bridget is describing the last time she saw Abby was in the dining room about 9 a.m.  She did not see Lizzie.
About 9:30 Bridget got ready to clean the windows.  She went into the sitting room and closed 1 window, and then went into the dining room and shut 2 windows.  She did not go into the parlour at all and she did not see Lizzie or Abbyas she traversed those rooms downstairs.  Bridget also did not go into the front entry but did not notice or hear Lizzie anywhere.
Bridget now is standing right outside the screened door with her window-washing apparatus and there appears Lizzie just inside the door.  She asks if Bridget is going to wash the windows.  Bridget replies about the door hook and Lizzie says nothing else.
Now, the hook was off when Bridget came in to get her dipper when she was almost finished with the windows.  She didn't see Lizzie.  She went back outside and threw water on the windows.  Then Bridget being finished outside enters thru the sceeened door.  Again it is not hooked.  Bridget gets her hand basin.  Bridget does not see Lizzie.  Bridget lets in Mr. Borden and does not see Lizzie.  She testifies she heard her laugh somewhere up the landing. Andrew goes and sits down in the dining room.   Bridget was finishing the Sitting room windows when Lizzie appeared.  Lizzie came into the sitting room where Bridget was and passed on into the dining room and Bridget heard her ask if there was any mail for her, and that Abby had got a note.
Now Bridget no longer, again, knows where Lizzie is.  Andrew has taken the key from the sitting room shelf while Bridget is still in there and gone upstairs.  Bridget was going into start the dining room windows when Andrew came back down.  Lizzie was not in the dining room. (21).  Andrew let down a window and sat in a chair in the sitting room.  Bridget could see him from where she started the dining room window.  Lizzie was not in the sitting room.
She next see's Lizzie coming from the sitting room, through the dining room, to the kitchen and she gets out the little ironing board, takes it into the dining room and "started to iron."
"You had not seen her before since she came down and asked about the mail?"
"No sir."
"Where she went to meanwhile, you do not know?"
"No sir."

--Where was Lizzie and what was she doing?  Lizzie swears Andrew did not go upstairs.  That she didn't see him do that.  She wasn't in the kitchen when he came home and she wasn't in the kitchen when she appeared in the dining room from the sitting room, when Bridget was finishing the last dining room window.  Is she setting something up?  And where was she all morning from 9:30 until 5-10 minutes after Andrew returned?

Thats a good question, Kat, with no easy answer.  After Lizzie spoke with Andrew in the dining room she had to have slipped through the sitting room again back to the front of the house.  Bridget may have been too intent on her work at the moment to notice her walk through.

Of course Lizzie wouldn't see Andrew go to his room as she wasn't in either of the rooms, the dining room or sitting room, to see him go.  Why she argues with Bridget's testimony on this point is beyond me, why she couldn't have just said something like 'after speaking with him I paid no mind to his actions, he may have gone upstairs, I didn't notice' as per her usual vagueness.

I believe at that point Lizzie was either retrieving the hatchet from upstairs and hiding it downstairs somewhere where she would have easy access when the time was right or, she was notifying the murderer that Andrew was now home and that she would now try to get Bridget out of the way so that they could do their dirty deed.

There is another thought that occurs to me and that is that Lizzie admits to having brought her clean laundry up to her room.  Perhaps those hankies that needed to be ironed were on top of her pile of laundry and she had to go back up to get them? 

This is exactly the kind of ruminating I wanted as to where Lizzie was and what she was doing. 
This is betwen murders and yet Lizzie is still unaccounted for.
We need to fill up some more time tho.
Why such a late entrance after Andrew returned, for one thing?

The only thing I can think of is that if Lizzie is the murderer, Abby is her first victim ever.  She doesn't know about blood spatter, how long it takes to make sure someone is dead, etc.  She may have had blood in her hair, on her clothes and hands and needed time to clean up and possibly readjust herself to what was considered normal for Lizzie.  And how long do you think it may have actually taken to murder Abby?  10 minutes or so?  She may have needed to regain her composure before she presented herself to Bridget and especially her father.  I can picture Lizzie like Lady Macbeth, scrubbing her hands together, half laughing and crying at the same time, it couldn't have been an easy thing to do.

Maybe Lizzie went back a few times to make sure Abby was completely dead, never having murdered before, she may not have known what dead was yet?  Maybe she kept expecting Abby to spring up screaming bloody murder and had to be sure before she left the vicinity?

Then I have the thought that perhaps when Andrew got home, Lizzie was or just started to get changed into whatever other dress she wore.  She notices a button loop loose on the sleeve and bastes it back into place.  That would at least explain her haste in sewing and why she did a quick fix instead of sewing it up properly.  And knowing that Abby is laying dead in the guest room she can't very well admit to or actually go in there and use the sewing machine, so, she opts for the quick fix of the loop.  Can't you just see Lizzie all strung up with adrenaline knowing that her father is home, due to her making sure all the front door locks are locked?  Basting up her loop at a feverish pitch and she hears Bridget let loose with her "O, pshaw" or stronger expletive?  I can totally see someone letting loose with a nervous giggle at that point.

My thought is most of that morning may have been spent in gaining composure again, locked away in her room. 

What about the basement? I can picture Lizzie heading down there
either to clean herself up, or get her accomplice ready for the
next act.  Not very much is said about that door leading from
basement to backyard, yet it is the best escape route for the
murderer to get away over the fence without being seen.  It looks
like the lot in back of Bordens is empty, mostly wooded. 

Arnold R Brown, Chapter 19, does suppose that this is how WmS Borden left the house. But if WSB wanted to look at the front yard for the buggy, it seems more likely to walk out the back screened door. IMO

Again, that's pretty good.

NJ- I don't think Lizzie was in the basement tho, according to the times shown by Bridget and where Bridget was.  Bridget goes into the basement- that is her turf.  Up the front stairs, is Lizzie's turf.  Lizzie knows Bridget will not go there.  Wouldn't that be the safest place to wait etc.?

It wouldn't take 10 minutes to actually kill Abby.  Maybe 3 minutes?
Because I think Abby was killed approx. 9:05 a.m. that would have her dead by 9:10.  That is 20 minutes to clean up- and show herself to Bridget at the screened door approx. 9:30.  (if Lizzie did it).

That leaves 70- 80 minutes to ??*  To plan for Andrew?

*[Andrew arrives 10:40 but lizzie doesn't enter the common downstairs rooms until 5 or 10 minutes later]

(Message last edited Dec-30th-03  2:38 AM.)

Really?  So you have Lizzie speaking with Bridget at the back door after the murder.  Personally I always envision that Lizzie is in the cellar before Abby's murder, possibly getting the hatchet or letting in her murderer through the outside cellar door.  Lizzie hears the screen door bang closed and comes upstairs.  She already knows Bridget will be washing windows, but, is caught out as Bridget sees her appear.  They have their conversation and as soon as the cost is clear, Lizzie and/or the murderer goes up to the guest room and does Abby in.

Yes, what was Abby doing in the interim, I don't quite know, but, Lizzie must have known she had some time to make sure Bridget was out of the house and didn't hear anything.  But, thats just my own take on it, I feel like if it was me, I couldn't do it with Bridget in the house. 

What an interesting post Susan.  I like the idea of Lizzie going back and forth checking to make sure she was really dead. Sort of like the killer returning to the scene of the crime, making sure there was no tell-tale evidence left behind as well as the victim being dead. Lord knows what her emotions were at the time.  A mix of a lot of things I would assume. 

I agree she would definitely wait until Bridget was out of the house. She had no choice about where Bridget was when doing in Andrew so she had to risk that.  The only thing that bothers me about that part was why she called Bridget down so soon.

My feeling on that is this--assuming Lizzie is the perp.

After she killed Abby, she was too busy cleaning herself up, changing clothes, etc. to really think about what she'd just done. Also, I think her hatred of Abby was so intense and passionate that when it was over she was able to calm down quickly. But I believe she did love Andrew but felt so betrayed by him for whatever reason, that she was able to kill him, but when she realized fully that she had killed her FATHER, she freaked out.

Does any of this make sense? 

Yes, I agree Susan.  I've always seen Lizzie's screen door exchange with Bridget as making sure she was busy with the windows, leaving Lizzie alone in the house with Abby.

Hmmm...perhaps I should check the times again...

The timing is what is hard to understand with Abby's murder.
Lizzie says she didn't see Abby again after talking to her in the dining room around 9.
Bridget says she never saw Abby alive again after talking to Abby in the dining room around 9 a.m.
Each could be lying.
One could be lying.  But where was Abby all morning?
I see a zonbie-like Lizzie checking Bridget thru the screen door.
Bridget chatters at her but Lizzie only says "Are you going to clean the windows?"  Lizzie does not reply to Bridget and she does not hook the screen.  Or if she did it was unhooked again by the time Bridget came in to get her dipper.  Lizzie in a sort of trance.  Uttering one sentence only because she is in some shock from the killing.  Can't even answer.

Bridget is not going up stairs, especially up the front stairs.  Lizzie, if she did it, would know the front part of the house was safe.
I don't think the killer could wait.  I think once Abby was done with the guest room she would go down stairs and that would be the point where the killer no longer had any control as to where Abby died.
It was opportunity.  Bridget or no Bridget.

Ooh, good stuff Kat.  I think the times you've narrowed down where Lizzie was "when" are fascinating.

I always assumed she was cleaning up.  And/or keeping watch for the hired assassin.

Excellent point that she knew Bridget would not come up those stairs. 

I also think Susan's idea of Lizzie going back to make sure Lizzie was dead is a very good one.  Never thought of either of those before.  (If they'da only had women cops back then ...)

Two things I'm mulling over:
1) Did Lizzie deny that Andrew went upstairs because she went up there afterwards and took that white thing he was carrying?  Of course it's possible she just didn't notice him or see him go.

2)  Why didn't Lizzie lock the screen door?  I agree with Kat in that maybe she did lock it, but then unlocked it when it was okay to.  But if she did not lock it, why in the heck not???

Thanks for explaining your take on it, Kat.  This is one of those gray areas that we don't have much factwise to work with other than Bridget's account that Lizzie was missing most of the time after her breakfast.

I did find something interesting in Bridgets Prelim testimony that may support your idea:

Q. When you started to go out in the barn, do you remember how you found the door then?
(*note-to me it should read go out to the barn as Bridget was on the back stoop, it makes more sense-Susan)

A. Miss Lizzie came through the kitchen then, as I started to go out in the barn with a pail.  She was at the back door.

Now I don't know if Bridget means that she actually saw Lizzie walk through the kitchen and came to the back door, or thats just her idea of how Lizzie popped up at the back door.  But, it does sound as though Lizzie came down that hall.

See, I get tied-up with Lizzie saying that upon coming down to the kitchen, the first thing she did was visit the cellar WC for 5 minutes.  From Bridget's testimony, Lizzie didn't do this.  And only 5 minutes for a lady in voluminous skirts and possibly 2 petticoats and maybe drawers?  Sorry to get indelicate here, but, even if she only went to urinate, she had to clean herself with newspapers or magazine pages, couldn't have been very absorbant.  Then to rearrange her skirts again and possibly tie-up her drawers before leaving the WC?  5 minutes doesn't seem like enough time to me at all, it sounds like a lie.

And why lie about having gone to the cellar?  Bridget may have seen her come up from the cellar at the side door there and tell as such.  Lizzie gives it as a very short amount of time as she knows that cellar is a damaging place.  Axes and hatchets abound down there and there is that other door that leads out of the house, all not in her favor.  But, she has to cover for that trip to the cellar.

Bridget lost sight of Lizzie after coming inside from vomiting.  She didn't see Lizzie again until 9:30.
If Bridget is out vomiting around 9, Lizzie could have gone down to the cellar when she said she did.  Lizzie said she went down just after she got up.

Lizzie, Inquest,63-
A. There is no reason why I should not have seen her if she had been down there, except when I first came down stairs, for two or three minutes I went down cellar to the water closet.
Q. After that you were where you practically commanded the view of the first story the rest of the time?
A. I think so.

Around 9 too is the meeting of each with Abby in the dining room.  After that neither sees the other.
If Lizzie is killing Abby then, and appears at the screened door at 9:30 I don't think there is a conflict that Lizzie was coming up from the cellar or down from the back stairs or entering from the front of the house.
Is a later cellar visit for Lizzie incompatable, but not for personal privy-use purposes?
I also don't think people realize the time it takes to do things.  I think you have experimented with how long it takes to wield a hatchet 19 times?  It's how long?
Not as long as people assume.  The same can be said for Lizzie's privy use in the morning.  Lizzie herself says it took her "2 or 3 minutes".

However, it can't be said for how long it would take to clean up after a killing because that is subjective...as in How *clean* is *clean* when a person has blood on them?  They might never feel clean...

Yes, the lack of exact facts as to timing does prevent any logically correct solution. Except the jury of 1893 already decided (correctly, since other moot juries have come to the same conlusion).

There wasn't enought evidence to convict either Lizzie or Bridget, then or now. Whether this was due to the lawyers limiting the testimony is another thing. Then or now.

If the jury had taken more time to consider the evidence, I would have more confidence in their verdict.  Since they blew it, I don't.  They were making a statement to society, not contemplating evidence.

The mock trial in California - have you ever seen that upon which you rely?- was acted out, and the closing arguments were improvisational.  The defense's argument was superb, and the prosecution's was inept.
That kind of re-enactment is not the real thing.  It is *Theatre*.  It was very good, but not accurate.  Did you know this?

According to Bridget's Prelim testimony, Lizzie sat down to eat her breakfast first thing, no mention of her leaving the kitchen to go to the cellar.  In Bridget's Trial testimony she has Lizzie coming in from the sitting room into the kitchen and she starts to get her breakfast.  I feel like Bridget is just telling it how it was that day, so, I don't think Lizzie visited the cellar first thing like she said.  After Bridget goes out, yes, probably, Lizzie disappears and isn't seen again.

I think the timing of 19 whacks is subjective to what was going on.  If you are just using a hachet and striking in the air 19 times, it can be quick, striking Abby is another story.  How much did Abby struggle after the first whack?  Did she evade the killer for a short while, try to run, duck, etc.?  Did the hatchet ever get stuck in Abby's skull and need to be wrenched out again?  These are the kinds of things I try to take into account, unless Abby went down like a ton of bricks after the second whack, it may have taken awhile to get her down and inert to deliver the rest of the blows.  Oh, and I did time myself in the bathroom with just a short skirt and pantyhose, it came out a little over 3 minutes.  I tried to do it as natural as possible without rushing or taking my time.  So, I still have a feeling it would take longer with Victorian garments on unless Lizzie didn't have drawers on that day.  That would definitely speed up the process.  Sorry gang, you know me and my experiments. 

 

I understand your original point that Lizzie might be fibbing her time in the cellar in order to distance herself from being thought she dawdeled down there where the hatchets were.
Is it incompatible with your opinion, that Lizzie could have been down there later after Abby was killed (if I think she was killed by 9:10 or so?)
Lizzie could have been anywhere.  She could have taken the key off the mantle and visited Abby & Andrew's bedroom and waltzed around like she now owned the place, for all we know...

Oh no, its not incompatible at all, Lizzie could have gone anywhere in the house after killing Abby.  But, I do feel like she would have had to clean up and regain composure before going downstairs if she knew that Bridget was still in the house, that would have taken some time. 

I was curious about your idea that after killing Abby, Lizzie would need to check on Bridget and what she was doing?  To me that seems to be something someone would do before they did a secretive act, find out where others will be and what they are doing. 

After reading Bridget's statement in the Preliminary about Lizzie coming through the kitchen I've been thinking that maybe Lizzie wasn't in the cellar the whole time, perhaps she came up and went in the sitting room.  Bridget says she didn't go in there herself, so, she never knew if Lizzie might have disappeared from the kitchen into there.  Abby would still be in the dining room dusting and Lizzie could eavesdrop on her conversation with Bridget about washing the windows.  Lizzie could stay in the sitting room silently watching her victim and awaiting the opportune moment.  I'm liking this idea more with Lizzie as the murderer, she is in total control here, knows whats going on and where everyone is.  Lizzie hears the screen door bang shut and goes to confirm if Bridget is going to wash the windows now so she can be alone with her victim. 

i'm coming in late on this and not sure who to post this to, but it really doesn't matter, i don't guess.

what i'm getting from this whole thread is the possibility that lizzie killed abby before she spoke to bridget at the screened door. she had some post-murder things to do.

what does make a lot of sense is that lizzie's priority would have been to get abby while she was still up in the guest room.  lizzie must have known that had she given priority to making sure that bridget was out of the house -- this could have given abby time to get back downstairs.

the image we all know as to the sequence of events -- lizzie checking bridget at the back door BEFORE she killed abby -- this works well in the narrative of the drama.  BUT lizzie had a small window of opportunity here - if her goal was to kill abby up there, she did not necessarily have time to watch bridget so closely.  lizzie would not have expected bridget to go up the front stairs anyway. 

it works either way for me.  what lizzie did during this time can only be explained by HOW she did it.  well, for example, when lizzie says "are you going to wash those windows?" -- perhaps she is not then thinking of killing abby but of using the stove.

Lizzie might have lured Abby back upstairs on some pretext in order to kill her around 9:30 I suppose.  But where was Abby from 9 until 9:30 while Bridget was still doing kitchen things, and in the house?
I think the door was closed between the dining room and kitchen after Bridget got her window-washing orders from Abby there- I think she said she closed that herself.
Then if the kitchen door to the sitting room was always kept closed (Bowen says he's not seen it open) that would leave Bridget isolated in the kitchen and sink room in the back hall.  Cut off from the dining room and sitting room, parlour, front entry and front stairs and the room above the front stairs.

What would that mean?
If Abby was still downstairs (Not appearing in the kitchen/hall to go up to her room), and Bridget didn't hear her speaking or moving around, then we need to figure out where Abby was that 1/2 hour if she wasn't already lying dead in the guest room.

I was thinking this over, do we know for a fact that Abby went directly up to the guest room after telling Bridget she wanted the windows washed?  Bridget saw Abby dusting in the dining room and sitting room.  Could it be possible that Abby actually told Lizzie that as soon as she was done dusting that she would go up and put on the pillow slips? 

There was still the parlor, though little used, I'm sure would still get dusty.  Emma had mentioned something about taking care of the parlor, but, since she wasn't home and if Lizzie didn't do it, it would fall to Abby to clean it.  I'm thinking that if that room was reserved for special company, wouldn't you want it sparkling clean and ready at the drop of a hat?  So, Abby may have spent some time on the first floor dusting in the parlor.  As I had posted earlier, Lizzie may have been in the sitting room, waiting and watching for when Abby went upstairs.  Or, the parlor may have been just as good of a place to dispatch Abby in as no one really went in there.  Lizzie just needed Bridget out of the house and hearing the screen door close went to check if Bridget was indeed washing the windows then so she could have some alone time with Abby. 

As I said once before, my own experience as a juror will explain this. If the jury is UNCONVINCED of the guilt, a straw vote or two, plus a few minutes of talking, will quickly end the trial.

WHAT is your experiences?