Forum Title: LIZZIE BORDEN SOCIETY Topic Area: Lizzie Andrew Borden Topic Name: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!  

1. "Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by merri on Dec-12th-03 at 5:29 PM


2. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by merri on Dec-12th-03 at 6:35 PM
In response to Message #1.

Sorry guys my kids hit the button and I'm afraid I posted without posting anything! Anyway, I'm new here and definetely not an expert in Lizzie Borden but I am quite obsessed about the whole thing.  In a nutshell, I have hit the point where I need to know the truth and I need to know it now!! I have read  a few books and did research on the web, I used to think Lizzie was innocent, then I thought maybe she paid someone to do it for her, now I am pretty convinced that she was the one, she may not have acted alone, but she sure made alot of errors to prove her guilt.  LIke I said I'm no expert and please correct me if anything I am thinking is in error, because I really do want to know the true story as much as is possiblein a case where all the witnesses happen to be dead!  Anyway, some things that really stood out for me were the following:
1. Lizzie was supposedly in the house when Abby was murdered, and yet she never heard a thing?  A 200 pound woman hits the floor-dead weight mind you and no one hears a thing, the ceiling did not shake even a little?  My mom's home is set up alot like the Borden home I grew up there, one time we were downstairs in the living room and  a plaque fell off the wall upstairs at the other end of the house and it sounded like someone had fallen, it scared us half to death.  So how could Lizzie not have heard her at least fall?
2.  I know that Lizzie was considered a very expressionless woman but would not happening upon ones own beloved father who only a short time ago she had seen alive and well, his appearance was gruesome does not that earn even a tiny screech?  I come from a very expressionless family, but even they get freaked out when caught off guard by something unexpected and horrible.  Maybe a couple of tears, she supposedly loved him she gave him a special ring as a token of affection, and all she manages is a very matter of fact Fathers been killed (or something like that)  Wasn't her corsett tight enough, she could of at least fainted!
3.  Then!  She stays behind while Bridgett goes for help.  Am I the only one here who would very eagerly claimed chickenhood and said "yeah, Maggie you stay with father, I'll go get help!"  Anyone would have been terrified to stay somewhere alone where a murder just took place!
4.  But the one thing that really sealed the deal for me was Lizzie going in the basement by herself at night and disposing of something.  I really think that she did not even think that anyone would ever suspect her, since she was such an upstanding lady and she had after all laid the groundwork by confessing all of her fears for her father and her own safety.  In Victoria Lincoln's book she mentioned Lizzie cleaning up with women's menstrual rags because they could not determine the difference in blood, I think she hid them and when she realized her own house would be searched she snuck down later without Alice and disposed of them with the other menstrual rags.  She could not have gone with Alice because a woman would notice if anything looked peculiar( like just a little too much blood for your average outbreak of 'flea bites').  The fact that she went down in that dark basement at night by herself, where if I'm not mistaken weren't the blood stained clothes that her father and stepmother were wearing in a pile down there? She had no fear about it because she knew there was nothing to fear.  My mom's basement is scary, her house was built sometime in the mid 1800's, they made basements scary back then!  We always laugh at mom's because we have seen grown men run scared from her basement or refuse to go down altogether.  I felt completely safe down there, but go down there by myself in the dark?  Not likely.  Especially if I was still try to get over the pictures in my mind of my father and stepmother butchered.
5.  As for Abby being a nasty old thing, as Lizzie wanted everyone to believe.  She was overweight and hardly ever left the house, maybe she was depressed.  Maybe she wasn't mean at all but lonely and sad because her husbands daughters were her constant rivals always sniffing around making sure she did not get anything extra from her own husband, and if she did she had to put up with 2 grown women throwing very ladylike temper tantrums until they got their way. They punished her for receiving gifts from her husband.  Calling her Mrs. Borden from that moment on, come on, how spoiled and frivolous can Lizzie get?
I know I have more thoughts on this but  I can't think of them.  Anyway, you've all read enough of my ramblings!  Am I the only one thinking like this?  Is there more to it that I'm not seeing?  I am so glad I found you all, everyone I know thinks I'm alittle 'touched' to be even reading about Lizzie Borden.  It is fun though seeing the different reactions I get!  Thanks for letting me ramble here!
Merri


3. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by haulover on Dec-12th-03 at 8:37 PM
In response to Message #2.

all your points are insightful and important.  keep posting.  there is a post here exactly about your #4 point.

i don't mean to presume, but it sounds like you've discovered the fact that lizzie cannot be "innocent" -- whether her hands were stained or not.

not that you have (but i have) decided that lizzie gave the police an outfit she DID NOT wear that morning -- can you think of an "innocent" reason for her doing so?  thus far, the only reason we've identified here thus far is her personal vanity.


4. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by njwolfe on Dec-12th-03 at 8:58 PM
In response to Message #2.

Hi Merri, welcome. You make some great points, i'm still in the
Lizzie had help do it opinion.  Of course her and Bridget must
have heard something.  I grew up in a house like that also, and
everything could be heard.  The basement was a real basement, ugh
we had our laundry room down there and I hated going down.  It must
have been a lot worse at Lizzie's house.  Hope to hear more from you,
Nancie


5. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by Merri on Dec-12th-03 at 9:50 PM
In response to Message #3.

I kindof wonder if she changed from her 'active wear' (the dress she killed Abby in) into a dress that looked similar but happened to be more for winter wear.  After awhile when they asked for her dress for evidence maybe she realized gee, they are going to wonder why I was wearing something winter in the middle of summer, she was too fashionable to make that sort of blunder normally.  So she just gave them any old dress that resembled the description.  The whole dress issue is very confusing for me, all the descriptions and different materials, so if it is confusing for me imagine what a sleeper it was for 12 jury men.  It probably all went right over their heads.  I do think that she killed Abby in the dress she had on in the morning then changed and killed her father with his coat covering her(Victoria Lincoln's theory)  what convinced me of this was that he was found with his coat waded up under his head with (of course)blood all over it.  He was a penny pincher, no penny pincher wads his good coat up to take a nap, that is what pillows are for!  The only living person to see Lizzie in her first dress was Bridget I wonder if Lizzie did not ask her to fudge a litttle on her description of it and that is what clued Bridget into Lizzie's hand in the murders and that is what sent her off scared out of her mind?
Also, one more thing that has been on my mind,  Emma was such a homebody before the murders, she never went to church and yet after the trial she became very active in the church and a regular attender and very close with the minister.  Did she have a guilty concience about something, I don't think she had a part in the murders, but did she know something? 
Merri


6. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by Kat on Dec-13th-03 at 12:32 AM
In response to Message #2.

Welcome Here!  Interesting posts.  We can always use a new look at this old crime.
I love the comment;
"They made basements scary back then!"
I think the Borden basement was and is scary. I haven't been there but I was imagining staying in that house alone overnight and I doubt I could do it!
Have you ever been to Fall River or visited any of the "Borden Property"?

About Abby not going out:  You asked to be informed.  I knew that had been discussed and I went to find a bit of it:
-We know Abby probably meets up with Mrs. Dr. Bowen , maybe at the shops in the forenoon. (Hip-bath collection, & Prelim)
-We know Mrs. Southard Miller was a good friend of Abby's so they must have spent some time together. (Sourcebook et.al.)
-We know Mrs. Whitehead said that Abby came over there a lot. (Inquest)
-We know she shopped almost every day for the food.  I suppose to keep it fresher, especially in the summer. (Inquest)
-We know too that Abby visited at the house of Rescomb Case quite a lot,  (Knowlton Papers, 105)
-We know in the summers she is used to going to the farm.

I'm trying to find where it might say that Emma went to church a lot after the trial.
I did find (Rebello) where Emma was a good friend of the Buck girls, tho Alice Lydia was particularly Lizzie's friend.
Rev. Buck, was not minister to the CCC congregation tho, but Rev. Jubb was, until 1896.  Rev. Buck was called a "City Missionary."
Buck resigned in 1899, and died in 1903.
Can you point me to where we might find Emma's attendance?
Speaking about Emma being a *Homebody*, what about that trip to Fairhaven that fatal summer?  Up until then, we don't know if she ever went anywhere, except away to school somewhere around 1865?-1867?
That summer she goes away?!

(Message last edited Dec-13th-03  12:36 AM.)


7. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by MarkHinton63 on Dec-13th-03 at 1:38 AM
In response to Message #6.

Hi Merri. Welcome. I am also new to the Lizzie Borden case and have been a member of the forum for about a month. I have yet to make up my mind about Lizzie's guilt or innocence, though.

Mark H.


8. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by harry on Dec-13th-03 at 7:51 AM
In response to Message #1.

Hi Merri and welsome to the forum! Your opinions and theories are as important as anyone elses.

Personally I strongly suggest reading the primary documents as a foundation on which to build. The books while fleshing out the story sometimes do not always reflect reality.


9. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by gt-master on Dec-13th-03 at 11:06 AM
In response to Message #8.

Good point Harry, I once read somewhere that if you ever wanted to be misinformed about the borden case, read a book about it! I think that the inquest testimony & any other statments sworn to in a court of law & recorded as such should always be the 1st step in any inquiry. Then reading others opinions should be next in line.


10. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by gt-master on Dec-13th-03 at 11:17 AM
In response to Message #9.

sorry I forgot, Hi Merri & welcome. A Borden arm-cahir detective is always welcome no matter which side of the She did-She didn't fence you happen to be one. Personally I believe that she had to have know about it. I can see her whacking Abby & having time to clean & cover up but as far as her father is concerned, I can't see how she could do it, clean up, & not have a spot of blood on her of a hair out of place in the space of 15 minutes tops! I think that someone else was involved. Maybe Dr. Bowen, or Uncle John Morse, or ever William Borden. I'm not sure but I do not for 1 second believe that she acted alone. It's nice to read some of the other members thoughts on the case as far as who did it. I think that when you register to join this site, part of your member profile should have your opinion as far as who did it. Nothing long. Maybe just a sentence or 2. Anyway, welcome to the site, your in for a hell of a ride!


11. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by Merri on Dec-13th-03 at 12:50 PM
In response to Message #6.

Thanks everyone for the welcomes!
Kat, I read in the Victoria Lincoln A private disgrace in chapter 39 she stated that after the trial, Emma wore mourning the rest of her life and she reversed with Lizzie in the churchgoing. Where Lizzie used to be a regular attender she stopped going and Emma who never went began going every Sunday, she also mentioned she became good friends with Mr. Jubb's sister. I have read the thing about Emma going to church after the trial somewhere else but I have read so many Borden books I can't recall which ones I saw it in! I really wonder about her taking that trip also!  Very suspicious.  One thought I had on it though was what if Lizzie was planning and she knew she had to have a empty house to work in (other than the victims of course).  I have always had the picture of her as being very convincing when she wanted something, I wonder if she very slyly convinced Emma that she needed to take a vacation?  I also wonder if she was not the one to convince Abby to have Bridgett wash the windows that morning?  Maybe Emma, after thinking about how Lizzie suggested she go away, started to have her doubts and began feeling guilty about her unknown hand in all this mess?  Emma was ever the protector of Lizzie and would never breathe a word of how Lizzie made the suggestion because it might point to her guilt, but Emma probably felt responsible somehow because if she had not went away, Lizzie could not have succeeded, and that may explain the lifetime mourning and newfound church home.  Again, this is just a thought I had, nothing I am convinced of.  I find it very hard to be convinced of anything where this case is concerned, it is so complicated!
I also kind of wonder about Bill Borden, if indeed he was Andrew's crazy son what if Lizzie agreed to pay him some of the inheritance if he helped her kill them?  It would be the only way he had a chance of getting any inheritance.  What do you think of that possiblity?
Are there any Borden books with strictly the trial transcripts, or a very accurate account?  I would be interested in reading it.


12. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by Susan on Dec-13th-03 at 1:53 PM
In response to Message #2.

  Hi Merri, welcome to the forum.  Great first post!  But, a word of advice from someone who is suffering from "Lincolnitis", read the source documents for the facts on the case.  I too love Victoria Lincoln's book, its one of my favorites, but, I've had to unlearn alot of what I've picked up from that book.  Things that are stated as facts which there are no basis for, such as Emma wearing mourning for the rest of her life.  I myself am of the mind that Lizzie did it and if she didn't, she knew who did and most probably had a hand in it.


13. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by njwolfe on Dec-13th-03 at 2:56 PM
In response to Message #12.

I agree Susan about Lincoln's book, I also loved it.  The best thing
that came out of that book for me was the Fall River mindset and
class distinctions at that time.  If you weren't pure-bred Fall River
through and through, you were not accepted.  Victoria Lincoln's family
was not accepted as pure as Lizzies, so she might have had a resentful
bent to her writings. Yet I still think it is an important book on this subject. 


14. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by rays on Dec-13th-03 at 4:27 PM
In response to Message #13.

Any book that informs you of the background of this case is worth reading. But you can't really trust fiction, since the author will make up things to sell his book. Sort of like a movie that dramatizes (or invents) actions to sell the movie.

You can compare the books to the movies ("The Counterfeit Traitor").


15. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by Kat on Dec-14th-03 at 5:58 AM
In response to Message #11.

Thanks for your source.
I was thinking it might be Lincoln, but I hadn't read that in a long time.
I would surely like to see another reference to Emma's supposed renewal of church-going activities.
As Susan is suggesting, check Lincoln at the door here and try the primary documents.  What you are doing here is beginning to ask questions leading you to think for yourself about this case.  You can be as informed as any of the authors, if not more.  You are on the right track, believe me and please excuse when we or I might point you in a different direction than the authors.


16. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by Merri on Dec-14th-03 at 11:49 AM
In response to Message #15.

I agree with you some of Lincoln's opinnions and theories are a bit laughable.  I only took the the things that stood out for me as possibilities, The whole seizure thing just does not work for me. I do want to have all the facts though, so I don't mind at all people pointing me to the truth.  It is welcomed, because like I said in my first post, I want to know what happened before it makes me crazy!!!


17. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by MarkHinton63 on Dec-14th-03 at 1:54 PM
In response to Message #16.

I have a comment on this temporal seizure matter.

I have had cerebral palsy since birth and, as a result went to Special Ed school with other children who were physically disabled. Quite a few of the kids I knew (and later in life a woman that I was romantically involved with) had epilepsy, but I had never heard of temporal lope epilepsy unitl I started reading about the Borden case.


18. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by Susan on Dec-14th-03 at 2:23 PM
In response to Message #17.

I just did a search on Temporal Lobe Epilepsy, nowhere could I find any info on people getting violent during a seizure.  Every site I visited seems to have pretty much the same info on it:

The temporal lobes, one on each side of the head, just above the ears, are the sites of one of the most common forms of epilepsy. Complex partial seizures with automatisms (unconscious actions), such as lip smacking or rubbing the hands together, are the most common seizures in temporal lobe epilepsy.

Seventy-five percent of patients also experience simple partial seizures which may include such features as: a mixture of thoughts, emotions, and feelings that are hard to describe; sudden emergence of old memories or feelings of strangeness in familiar surroundings; hallucinations of voices, music, smells, or tastes, and feelings of unusual fear or joy. While partial seizures dominate, approximately half the people with temporal lobe epilepsy have generalized tonic-clonic seizures as well.

That might be another "Lincolnism" that needs to be layed to rest.   


19. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by Kat on Dec-15th-03 at 12:13 AM
In response to Message #18.

That description sounds like schizophrenia.
In Lizzie's day they may have known about epilepsy but maybe not schizophrenia.  Seems brain waves would need to be monitored to establish epilepsy for sure?
We've tried to diagnose Lizzie before, because if she did it there must have been something going on in her!
We've tried hypoglycemia attacks and sonic sensitivity and what else you guys?

Hey Mark, thanks for reporting your experience with CP.  I won't say it's sad if you are coping so well.  You're being very honest.


20. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by Susan on Dec-15th-03 at 4:11 AM
In response to Message #19.

Yes, there does seem to be a correlation between the two, I did some more research and came up with this, sound like Lizzie to you?

It has long been debated as to whether persons with epilepsy have particular personality traits, which are different from other people's. It has particularly been singled out that people with temporal lobe epilepsy are more emotionally unstable than others, perhaps with a tendency towards aggression. Some people were said to be self-centered, they could be sensitive to the point of paranoia, and took every chance remark as a personal slight. They were described as being given to brooding over things, and were particularly interested in religious, mystic, philosophical and moral issues. They were said to be less interested in sex, with a reduced libido and impotence.  Hmmm?

I personally suffer from hypoglycemia and haven't killed anybody as of yet, I get extremely irritable when my blood sugar is low, but, not to the point of causing harm to another person.  Its more of a nauseous feeling and the shakes and feeling like I will pass out if I don't eat something immediately.  Not particularly conducive to murder. 


21. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by can on Dec-15th-03 at 11:09 AM
In response to Message #2.

I can comment on the dark spooky basement of the borden house since I've been in it.  It has several "rooms" without doors to them.  More like a maze/mouse trap.  It also has the original "wash sink" which is basically a large pot built into the brick foundations/wall like an outside BBQ pit.  It is this room that the outside door resides.  There is very little lighting and a very rough floor of dirt/concrete.  The room that was the "bathroom" of the time is now an ironing/washing room.  I was surprised about the several chambers of the basement that are just empty and spooky.  As I stated previously, I took some photo's in the basement.  I've looked all morning for them but can't seem to find them or I'd put them on here for you to see. 

I'M GOING TO THE HOUSE THIS UP-COMING WEEKEND.  IF ANYONE WANTS ME TO TAKE A PARTICULAR SHOT (PHOTO) OF A ROOM THEY WOULD LIKE TO SEE LET ME KNOW NOW.  I'LL THEN POST IT ON THE SIGHT. 


22. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by MarkHinton63 on Dec-15th-03 at 11:48 AM
In response to Message #19.

Kat, thank you for NOT pitying me. I get so much of that [expletive] even though I am able to walk unaided, live independently, drive, and work. I am very thankful for what I have and all I am able to do.

Susan, the post on temporal lobe epilepsy was interesting. I really don't remember if anyone I knew had the kinds of seizure described.

(Message last edited Dec-15th-03  11:48 AM.)


23. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by haulover on Dec-15th-03 at 12:47 PM
In response to Message #21.

i would love to see that part of the basement where lizzie returned alone that night and either put something or took something.  i think it's a corner area and there was a sink there at the time.


24. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by njwolfe on Dec-15th-03 at 8:47 PM
In response to Message #22.

good for you Mark, you sound like my coworker when I worked in
Vermont, a young man (to me he was young, 30ish?) he had CB since
childbirth but didn't stop him from anything! 
The cellar at the Borden house sounds just like my childhood cellar,
I would love to see pix of it.  When you walk down the cellar, there is a room to the right with a bathroom attached. to the left is another room. then a big room, then a wine cellar and pantry in the
back.  I have to close my eyes to write this, it was a very scary
cellar! 


25. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by njwolfe on Dec-15th-03 at 8:58 PM
In response to Message #20.

that is interesting Susan, sure sounds like Lizzie!  Have you
thought of diabeties?  Something that might have come on her
without warning, Hell even PMS or Menopause!  I would think if she
had an epileptic type disorder it would have been known through her
life before and after the murders. 


26. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by Susan on Dec-16th-03 at 1:58 AM
In response to Message #22.

Mark, do you know or have you met any people with Temporal Lobe epilepsy?  I'd be interested in hearing more firsthand info on it.  It sounds like a more internalized form of epilepsy that a casual observer might not even notice that someone was going through a seizure.  I have a friend who is a teacher for children with disabilities, he teaches them life skills.  I have met some of his students, one in particular who has grand mal seizures.  It was the first time I had ever witnessed that, the student knew that she was going to have a seizure before it happened and they were able to prepare for it.  I must confess that I felt quite helpless just watching and wishing there was something that I could do.


27. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by Kat on Dec-16th-03 at 2:10 AM
In response to Message #22.

It's all in the attitude, and if you know you are happy that's all that matters.


(Message last edited Dec-16th-03  2:42 AM.)


28. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by Kat on Dec-16th-03 at 2:16 AM
In response to Message #25.

Supposedly Lizzie had these seizures tied to her menses, according to Lincoln.
She would never have gone away to Europe for 19 weeks with that condition in those days IMO.
I think she would be too afraid of needing help on the trip.
Also, Dr. Bowen says he's the family physician and he doesn't think he's had to treat Lizzie before.

Where's the old threads trying to *diagnose* Lizzie?

(Message last edited Dec-16th-03  2:23 AM.)


29. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by rays on Dec-16th-03 at 1:38 PM
In response to Message #21.

Built-in wash basin? How was it drained?


30. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by harry on Dec-16th-03 at 1:58 PM
In response to Message #21.

Can, take some photos of the cellar if they will let you.  Are they still allowing visitors to go down there?

In any case, have a GREAT time there.  We envy you.


31. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by MarkHinton63 on Dec-16th-03 at 10:46 PM
In response to Message #26.

Susan, I have to confess that i was not aware of temporal lobe widely until now. I might heard have the term before and not given it a second thought. Most of the seizures I've witnessed have the grand mal type. The first time I saw someone have one was when I was nine or ten years old at summer camp and it scared the hell out of me. Temporal lobe sounds more like petti mal seizures, some being so slight and brief that you wouldn't know the person was having one unless you knew what to look for. At any rate I agree that it's highly unlikely that Lizzie suffered from any form of epilepsy and even if she did a seizure would not cause her to grab a hatchet and kill two people in the space of 90 minutes. If anything that sounds more like a psychotic fit.

(Message last edited Dec-20th-03  12:17 PM.)


32. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by Kat on Dec-16th-03 at 11:25 PM
In response to Message #29.

The place for the basin was built-in but the basin itself was seperate.
It was only recently that I realized that spot was near the cellar stairs to the outside.

A picture of how they closed off the sink room off the back kitchen hall would be good.
I'd also like to see pictures of the ceilings and floors, for some reason.
And a picture of You! 


33. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by Kat on Dec-16th-03 at 11:29 PM
In response to Message #31.

I agree about the psychosis, and just how was a hatchet *handy* when that dissassociative state kicked in!
How was it handy when any non-reality state overcame the person.


34. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by Susan on Dec-16th-03 at 11:48 PM
In response to Message #31.

Thanks, Mark.  Yes, grand mal seizures are quite frightening to watch, its so extreme.  From my understanding, most people that suffer them don't know they are going to have a seizure until right around when its going to happen.  I did see a really interesting show about people with dogs who were trained to stop them and make them sit down on the ground because the dogs knew when a seizure was going to happen long before the person did.  Then the dog would stand watch while the person went through the seizure and make sure they were safe.  It was really cool.

Yes, I totally agree, I don't think I've read anything at all, not even a hint that a person with Temporal Lobe epilepsy would be violent or perpetrate violence.  I think its another Lincoln fallacy.  Psychotic episode sounds more like the real deal to me too. 


35. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by can on Dec-19th-03 at 9:02 AM
In response to Message #23.

You got it!  It is very interesting to see the original brick work too.  I will take detailed photo's and post them next week sometime. 


36. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by can on Dec-19th-03 at 9:08 AM
In response to Message #29.

It lifts up.  The brick was built so that it would have a hole in the middle for which the basin could be lowered into it.  I say "basin" but it looks more like a big cooking pot.  I lost all my old pictures of it when I was there last.  But I will take more and post them next week if I can. Anything you want to see, rays, that I could take a picture and post for you? 


37. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by can on Dec-19th-03 at 9:18 AM
In response to Message #32.

Picture of me?  I look like Lizzie Borden, I've been told many times.  A psychic told me once that I was her reincarnated.  I didn't know anything about her and only started researching because of my prior two statements out of curiosity. I'm catholic so I don't believe in reincarnation, but I must admit looking back on my life of my likes/dislikes and other characteristics are similiar to her.  I don't know how to feel about that - definitely nothing to be proud of.  A bit scary I suppose and definitely not something you tell people lest they think you are a nut-case.  Funny, eh?

I'll take lots of pictures for you.  I'm an amateur photographer and just love taking pictures.  I've been looking forward to going all week. 


38. "Re: Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by Kat on Dec-19th-03 at 7:54 PM
In response to Message #37.

Now I'd really like to see a picture of you!
There are those who have searched for a re-incarnated Lizzie, believe it or not.  It's like an instict tho, I think, that she might be around, and possibly drawn to a Forum like this, unknowing.
I don't think it's crazy, but I think over time things will become more clear to you.
You don't happen to have a July/August birthday, do you?


39. "Introduction and a whole lotta thoughts on Miss. Lizzie!"
Posted by Kat on Dec-24th-03 at 3:47 AM
In response to Message #16.

Here is a link to Joe's topic of a physiological reason for Lizzie to kill (if she did).  I thought you might find it interesting, merri.

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archive203/Lborden/LBviolentcrimes.htm

(Message last edited Dec-24th-03  3:49 AM.)