1. "FR Bank note signed by Lizzie's grandfather?"
Posted by megarad on Dec-16th-03 at 12:14 AM

I have an 1854 Fall River Union Bank note signed by "A B Borden", Bank President.  Is this Abraham Bowen Borden who was Lizzie's grandfather (born in 1798)?

Thanks,
M

Hi!  Another MARK!  Wow Marc we have like 3 or 4 Marks.  That is really something!  A lot of Augusts here too. (the month)

We hear Abraham Borden was a fish peddler in his day.
I don't necessarilly think his circumstances were that drastic, but nor do I think he became a Bank President.
Let me check the census if I have it for those years, 1850 or 1860, and see if ABBorden is listed.
Anybody can jump in here if they know...

I've looked in the UMASS documents Stef had saved on the history of Industry and Businesses in Fall River.
I've looked at Victorian Vistas and Phillips History of Fall River.  I've looked in Rebello and I've looked at the 1859 City Directory.
I can find no Union Bank nor Fall River Union Bank.
The closest ABBorden I could find which was not Abraham was RBBorden.  He was active in business at least until 1871. (Abraham was not)
c. 1859 I found a "Union Mills Co."
That's about it.
Is the writing legible?  Could it say something else?
RB might look like AB?

--There were land deals between Abraham and Andrew in 1844, and 1854, some which included a mortgage.  Maybe it has something to do with that.  (Rebello, 549)
There was a Union Savings Bank of which Andrew was President when he died, but it wasn't incorporated until 1869.

(Message last edited Dec-16th-03  5:26 AM.)

I haven't seen this signature. Could his "R" look like an "A"?

Not mentioned here is the Private Bankinig Cartel that owns and manipulates our money supply, another topic that really doesn't belong here. But it is far more important than a 111-yr murder!!

This bank note is from Fall River Union Bank but issued from Tiverton RI.  It's not a note in a receipt sense; it is legal tender (paper money).  In those days before Federal banks, local banks issued paper money and they were signed by the bank employees (President, Treasurer, etc.).  I am a coin collector. 

I got the AB Borden name from Geneology.com.

I'll try to scan the signature in for you.  But in the mean time, you can see the note if you go to eBay and enter <2206610991> in the search.  It is listed as 1864, but I think it is 1854 (the date is hand written in script form).

BTW, I was born in Fall River & my Dad's business was near the Borden house where the chopchop took place & we used to have a customer in the Highlands near where Lizzie spend her elder days.  He used to always make a point of those houses every time we went by.

I live in PA now.

I couldn't find a Fall River Union Bank in all the places I've looked.
I'm stumped.  Anybody else can help?

I was born in PA!  Nice to know you!

(Message last edited Dec-17th-03  2:55 AM.)

Yes that is the signature.

I can't see it too well.  I realize you have it in your hand.  (BTW:  Thanks for the link to the pic.)
Could that be an S ?
S B Borden?

Abraham was no Bank President as far as I have read.  I think you might look for another contender.
Maybe Len Rebello could look at this signature.
Do you know how to contact him?

This is interesting.  I'm surprised you got it for the price you did.  Or is it worth much less because of its condition?
Looking at the eBay photo, it looks like that "A" looks more like an "S".
You probably know that there were many, many Bordens in the area.  Andrew's father was a fish peddler, as Kat said.  It was probably some kind of relative, a distant one perhaps.
  It looks like you got yourself a good find there.  Good for you!

According to the Fall River, Massachusetts Directory for 1859, the Fall River Union Bank was located on Main Street.

Nathaniel B. Borden was the President.

Three cashiers had the Borden surname: Nathaniel B., Cook and Thomas.

That's good, William!
How'd you find that in there?  My disk has no explanation just a huge series of of pages.
I did look for the *Bordens* in there but not the Banks.
How come that bank is in no other source?
Can you find it in another source, that's a hard one!

There must be 150 items in there, un-specified.  You must be really familiar with that document on C-D, Bill!  Hooray for some help here!
That's what we try to do here, Marc...is just keep plugging away until somebody comes up with something!  A grand group here!

This is what William found in the C-D The Fall River City Directory, 1859:




(Message last edited Dec-18th-03  7:15 PM.)

Kat:

The pagination on the Directory disk for 1859 is incorrect.

I'm sending you a couple of scanned pages from the Directory that should be helpful in using the disk.

That's it!  It's an "N".

...and now I can make out the other signature as "Coggeshall" who I see is the cashier listed in your directory.

Thanks!

Does anyone know if that is a relative?


About it being a good deal... I think so.  Yes the condition is poor but I bought it for the novelty.  I grew up on the Tiverton-FR state line and it being a $1.25 note...  I thought it was worth the $4 total I paid (can't even get 2 slices of pizza for that amount).

In 1857 Nathaniel B. Borden was mayor of Fall River, for 1 year.  (Mayoral terms were for 1 year).-Phillips History of Fall River, Fas. III, pg. 63.

The Borden Genealogy:



                                      Richard(1)
                                       John(5)
                                       Richard(95)
                                        Joseph(105) >>      Thomas(103)  Brothers
                                     *Abraham(273)        Richard(114)  Son
                                       Simeon(276)          Richard(120)     
                                   ** Nathaniel(282)         Abraham(208)  
                                                                         Andrew(218)   

*Abraham(273) Clothier

**Nathaniel(282)-b. April 15, 1801, m. 1: Sarah Gray, March 16, 1820 who died May 22, 1840.-5 children
2.Louisa Gray, Dec. 10, 1840, died June 4, 1842.
3. Sarah G. Buffum, July 12, 1843.  died Sept. 10, 1854.  One child born? Nathaniel B. Jr.
Nathaniel B. Borden died April 10, 1865, at 64 years.

Nathaniel B. Borden's greatgrandfather (Joseph-105) was brother to Thomas(103) who was Greatgreatgrandfather to Andrew(218).


(Message last edited Dec-19th-03  1:26 AM.)

Sounds like a keeper--congratulations! Awesome detective work, William!

Lyddie

(Message last edited Dec-18th-03  11:53 PM.)

"Hon. Nathaniel B. Borden (282) was born April 15, 1801, and died April 10, 1865, aet 64 years.  He was born in the house which stood formerly on the south side of Pocasset Street, nearly opposite the Pocasset Counting-room.  The house had a local celebrity from the fact that two British soldiers were shot and killed at it's eartern door, when the British made their attack upon the village during the Revolutionary War.

To a common country-school education he added a few months attendance at the Plainfield Acedemy, Connecticut;  but, having soon abadoned the idea of acquiring a liberal education, he returned home and, though scarcely twenty years of age, was elected clerk and treasurer of the Pocasset Company, then just formed.  He held this position until 1837, when he resigned on account of the press of public duties.  He was a member of the Massachusetts Legislature in 1831, 1834, 1851, and 1864.  He was a Representative in the Congress of the United States from 1835 to 1839 inclusive, and again in 1842-3.  To his duties as a legislator he brought extensive practical knowledge, a cool, deliberate judgment, and a firm purpose to do what he believed to be right in itself, regardless of personal or party consequences - ever placing his convictions of public duty above his real or supposed personal interests.

At the time of the agitation of Free Masonry and Anti-masonry, he took decided grounds against secret institutions in a free country, and, it is said, opened his own house for anti-masonic meetings, when no other place could be obtained for the purpose.

He was among the early and prominent friends of the slave, and assisted many a fugitive, either directly or indirectly, on his road to freedom.  In 1834, at a time when it was fashionable to mob abolistionists, he opened the Washington schoolhouse then his private property, in which to form an Anti-slavery Society.

He was for many years in local public life as town-clerk, selectman, highway surveyor, and a sort of general guardian to look after the interests and welfare of the town, thereby contributing largely towards securing the good order, credit, and prosperity of the town and city.  He believed it to be a duty for every citizen to serve his country, when called upon to occupy any official position for which he was qualified.

Under the municipal organization, he was an alderman for several years, and held that position at his death.  In 1856, he was chosen mayor of the city, and during the trying times of the winter of 1856-7, while the mills were stopped, and hundreds were out of employment and destitute, he employed many of the idle laborers having no legal residence here, at a cheap rate, in necessary work about the city, believing it to be a just and wise, as well as a humane policy, to provide for their wants temporarily, and secure to the city at the same time the benefit of their cheap labor.  They were thus retained at comparatively little additional expense to the city, where their useful sevices would again soon be required, and the objectionable course avoided, of throwing them as a burden upon the State, with all the consequent family disorder and social degradation.

At various times Mr. Borden held the position of President of the Fall River Savings Bank, the Fall River Union Bank, and the Fall River Railroad Company, performing the duties devolving upon him with efficiency and zeal.

He possessed naturally a happy, cheerful disposition, was a pleasant companion, and often manifested a versatile talent and great powers of endurance.  With a moral integrity unimpeached and unimpeachable, a large heart and generous sympathies, he passed through life shedding light upon and assisting by kindly acts his fellow-man wherever found, without regard to the color of his skin, the place of his birth, or the nature of his creed.  Liberal in his religious faith, and upright in his daily walk, he was to oppression an enemy, to the oppressed a friend.  By his death the city lost a faithful public servant, and the poor their best benefactor."

THE GENEALOGY OF THE BORDEN FAMILY Living In FALL RIVER AND VICINITY, 1876.
FROM
FALL RIVER AND ITS INDUSTRIES:
Atlantic Publishing And Engraving Co., New York;
Benjamin Earl & Son, Fall River, Mass.
1877.
...prepared with great care by Rev. Pardon G. Seabury, formerly of Fall River, and late of New Bedford."
1877

Hi Marc!
I put my posts into black in case you'd like to print out the info to go with your bank note.
Do you think the Bank President actually signed notes back then or do you think he had a legal-lackey do it or could it be engraved?



(Message last edited Dec-19th-03  1:49 AM.)

Thanks for the picture.

Yes, these notes are signed.  It's one reason that makes them collectable.  For many people they are exceptionally collectable if, for example, the signee is a relative.  They printed everything except for the 2 signatures & the date.  The handwriting for all these three items on the note are clearly different. 

Early notes were issued by banks, companies and even people until the govt outlawed it in the 1860s, after that there were National Bank Notes until 1935.  These were issued under Federal authorization.

Some of the early notes and National notes are among the most beautiful currency designed in the USA.

M

Thanks for the info on currency.
I also was glad to do research on Nathaniel B. Borden of *the Other Bordens" for this topic.
Looking up his bio and finding his relationship to Andrew Borden was really interesting to me (posts #16 & 18).

Wow - that was really great.  Now if we can just solve the mystery of the murders ... 

The mystery of the murders HAS been solved in theory by Arnold R Brown. If anyone doesn't agree, please say why. AR Brown was not a professional writer or reporter, it is an amateur work (in the best sense). He also admits he lacks complete proof. But it is the best around and has never been surpassed. (Yet.)

I won't repeat, but his theory explains the mystery and discrepancies in the testimony (to my satisfaction).

What's his theory?

Give me a link to somewhere if you don't want to explain it.

Thanks,
M

Marc, I just would like to be sure you did get the bio info on Nathaniel Borden, posts  #16 & #18?  Thanks.
-Kat

I currently don't agree with Brown's theory because people have looked and looked and no one has come up with any proof at all.  It's no better than any other theory.  In some ways it's worse, because we are supposed to believe that a) Andrew had an illegitimate son, which is largely supposed by Lizzie's inquest testimony, when Knowlton asks her how many kids Andrew had and she says two, and Knowton says is that all, and then Lizzie says that he had three - remembering Alice who died.  Knowton didn't go on further saying, "Isn't there another living?" or anything like that.  And b) we're supposed to believe this illegitimate child that we have no proof of in the first place was William S. Borden, and a scenario is contrived where WS Borden comes in and hacks the Bordens. 

I don't consider it "solved" because it's essentially just Brown's theory based on what he had been told.  When there's some proof offered, I'm sure people will give it a more indepth look.

The book is well written.  It's an interesting theory - certainly different.  But there isn't any proof at all.  I think it's the only book I can think of that had absolutely no proof to back it up.  That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.  And I refuse to argue about Brown. 

Rays, what other books have you read on Lizzie?  You might be able to broaden your perspective by reading more of them (no offense intended).

I will visit the County Library next year, and try to read another book (if my busy schedule allows it). Thank you for your wonderful advice! Maybe I can also read a few other books?

I went to the Library in 1997 to look up the more recent case (back cover of Rick Geary's book). I found Brown's book, and browsed it. I often judge a book by the pictures selected for it. The back cover intrigued me (a recent break in through the cellar window). I then went back to read all the others; Masterton's book later.

But reading a lot of books won't work unless you keep an open mind. Make your decision after reading them all. Given the jury verdict, Lizzie is and always will be "not guilty" in law, if not in Public Opinion. Not "innocent" (like OJ) because she KNEW who the visitor was.

Before you question the above, just WHAT did do you do?

NB: I found that some entries in the library catalog are not in the shelves.

Using Strom Thurmond's daughter, what would have happened if her Dad cut her off at age 21? Would she have come out afterwards? (I don't think a lady like her would use a hatchet, do you?)

(Message last edited Dec-24th-03  12:22 PM.)

Rays, if you know of a Lizzie book and want to read it, ask the librarian if she can get it for you thru an inter-library loan.  You have to wait a few days, then they call you when it comes in. 

With almost every Lizzie book I read when I first started reading them, I would change my mind about her as I read.  "Oh, yeah.  She didn't do it," and "Oh, my. She really musta done it."  Sometimes some of these posts really get me thinking. 

I think I've read most of them.  I have not read "Goodbye, Lizzie Borden" yet, tho I have the book.  That's supposed to be good.

I agree, an open mind is important.  I also agree that - at least right now - Lizzie probably didn't do it but knew who did.  I think she and Morse and Emma paid someone to do it. 

What did I do?  If you mean what did I do to form my current-day opinion, I read everything on her I could get.  And the Forum here is great for discussion and research. 

You have read Radin, I gather.  I liked that book.  I read it twice.  But I am not convinced of his theory of Bridget being the perpetrator. You've read Masterton.  I liked that book, too.  But again I think he went out on a limb with his scenario of who wrote the note and Abby's bringing a pie over to her sister's house and sitting there and eating it.  I think it's the first book, tho, that took the note seriously, which could be a possibility. 

Agnes DeMille's book is real good.  Like Radin, she was able to interview some of the people who were still around.  But she includes anecdotes about Lizzie that were on the gossipy side and probably not true, which could discredit the book to a degree.  I think David Kent's "40 Whacks" is highly thought of.  I've read it, but I don't remember the jist of it.  I think it was pretty much a straight-forward account of the case. 

Reading the source documents (trial, preliminary hearing, witness statements, inquest) are probably the most important.  I still have never read all of the trial; just bits and pieces. 

I think that studying the characters is important.  There is so little written about the people themselves, we have to piece them together with fragments we find here and there. 

For instance, for years I believed Abby was this one-dimensional evil step-mother.  But I'd see a little snippet here and one there that would tell about a friend she had (for years it was taken that Abby had no friends save her half-sister and never went anywhere at all, except to visit the half-sister once in a while).  Bill Pavao wrote an article on good things about Abby, and it was like a breath of fresh air in the LBQ.  I followed with a shorter article of something good I had come across about Abby.  I think it may be the same with Andrew.  He's been known for years to be this one-dimensional Scrooge.  I don't think so.  As with Abby, once in a while I'll come across something decent he had done; something just downright kind or even loving. 

Oh, the Lizzie Borden Sourcebook, a collection of newspaper articles on the case, is good, too.  Lots of things in there and written by people who were there.  What's yellow journalism and what is not, tho, who really knows.  The Rochester newspaper accounts of the case, that I think are on sale on this site, are very good, too in the same way.

You would have to be a real dope to pay someone to kill your parents and be home while the murders were committed.  Go visit a neighbor for a cup of sugar... anything but that.

I have read the AR Brown book. It reminded me of a couple of books I've read about another subject i'm interested in, Amelia Earhart. One of the theories regarding Earhart's disappearance over the Pacific Ocean in July 1937 was that she was on a spy mission, landed on a Japanese held island and both she and her navigator were executed. Like Brown's book is based primarily (IMO) on the recallections of one person, so are the origins of the Earhart spy theory.

(Message last edited Dec-25th-03  12:53 PM.)

I'm very interested in Amelia Earhart, too.  I agree with your post, MarkHinton63.

Megarad, this is true.  You'd think she would have gotten lost that morning if she hired someone.  I'm thinking she was betting on that daylight robbery ("They've gotten in before, when they stole things from Mrs. Borden, and all of us were home ..."  I always did think that was a rehearsal for the murder day.) and her visit to Alice Russell the night before, warning her of something about to happen, to help cover herself.  I think Lizzie helped the person get in and out of the house.

Please check your mail in your letterbox.
Above "Logout" , upper left on first page, there will be an envelope icon- click on that:  thanks

YES!!! That's one reason for assuming an unplanned murder. Nobody expected this to happen, or "How in God's Name did this happen" - JVM.

NOBODY can ever "prove" the solution in a court of law in the past hundred years. You just have to use "the best evidence", that what a jury would believe. The only real jury already rendered a verdict.

Can anyone say that the jury TRULY made a mistake? "Not Guilty" is also tantamount to "Not Proven", the Scotch verdict.

Shucks the solution to Amelia's disappearance is simple.
1) They ran out of fuel and crashed into the ocean where they will never be recovered.
2) They in fact were on a spy mission and fell into the hands of the Japanese who eliminated them without a trace.

The latter seems more likely to me. Could they have accidentally gone off-course? We do know that both Japan and America were spying on each other then. And the Japanese military could be that ruthless.
And that's all I know. There have been some books published.

AR Brown lists the names of all those who helped in his book. It was not just "one dead person's notes".

Yes, but there is a limit to only the County system. Maybe some university would have a better collection, but there are constraints on time, travel and money. "Is it worth the trouble?"

Brown's acknowledgements seem pretty standard to me.
Several Libraries (which imply newspapers),
Vital Statistics, Town Clerk, Registry of Deeds, Dept. of Mental Health, a Superior Court Judge: Chief Justice, newspaper researchers and curators, a Mrs. Marion Sherman of Westport provided insight and support, and Florence Brigham & Michael Martins of the FRHS.