1. "What do we think of this?"
Posted by diana on Sep-30th-03 at 12:49 AM

This could be that DNA we were looking for, I guess. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3629364242&category=208

Thanks for that, Diana.

Hard to see any of that, at least on my computer, even with clicking on the item to enlarge it.

I immediately checked a known sample of Emma's handwriting (a letter to her dressmaker which was reproduced in Spiering) & it looks absolutely nothing like the handwriting shown...even tho it is hard to see on the eBay auction.  Emma's handwriting was very neat & precise.  The loops on the y's for example very controlled...not at all like the loose, swingy lines shown.

I know.  Those pictures on the e-bay listing are very, very small. Edisto is our resident provenance expert.  We really do miss her expertise!
But does anyone believe Emma would have "sold" that?  I'm having trouble with that concept. 

 

If thats really Lizzie's hair it looks to be a medium reddish brown.  Does hair change color over time if its cut off like that?  That note looks like its all going downhill.  Is it possible that Emma lost her handwriting skills with age?  Interesting find nonetheless, Diana! 

Most curious item. Thanks Diana.

I did notice that he/she has 50 of them for sale and from the wording I assume you get just one strand of hair and not the piece shown in the photo. That would appear to be the entire lock.

I think you would be buying it on the trustworthyness of the seller as there is little if any way of verifying it's Lizzie's.  It does seem a very un-Borden like item and especially from Emma.

As for DNA, I believe you have to have the root of the hair. I've watched enough murder documentaries and the police always "pluck" a hair sample to get the root and never cut the hair.

I enlarged the photo but it still is not very clear. A slightly reddish brown? That would seem to fit.



(Message last edited Sep-30th-03  7:23 AM.)

That $10 postage for a strand of hair kind of implies, um, I
hate to say a swindle exactly, but, it does seem excessive.
I always think it is poor sportsmanship to be screwing the
bidders out of extra shipping money.

Yes, I think you're right about that, Harry.  I seem to remember that the root has to be included for the DNA test to define anything.  And it does sound like each hair costs $50 -- then if there are no takers for the individual strands -- the lock will go for $2,000. 

Were you able to enlarge the Emma letter enough so that you could read the contents? 

I've got to say -- I'm very skeptical about this whole thing.




(Message last edited Sep-30th-03  3:07 PM.)

I've been working on handwriting comparison & not clarity of text.
I still couldn't get that e-bay sample clear tho I tried a bit.
Added Lizzie's letter from Spiering for the heck of it.


(Message last edited Sep-30th-03  4:21 PM.)

What also is curious is the letter is just signed "E.L.B." which reduces it's value as a authenticating document. 

The slope of the lines is quite pronounced totally unlike the dressmaker letter posted by Kat.  Granted they are 32 years apart but I don't know if you begin to write on an angle as you age.  I have an English aunt who is in her late 80's whose handwriting was straight 50 years ago and still is today.  Slightly unsteadier but not on a slope. Same with mine although not 50 years apart. Emma's death certificate does list senility as one of the causes of her death and that may have interfered with her ability to write.

I did enlarge the photo and can make out a few words.  I think it begins "I thoroughly enjoyed you ...."  It becomes very unclear after that.

Why would Emma, a very wealthy woman, sell something like this?  Also she was supposed to be hiding out under an assumed name so why would she be writing letters to a total stranger?  How did he find her when no one else could? A lot of things need explaining.

(Message last edited Sep-30th-03  5:09 PM.)

The bottoms of the"Y"'s are completely different in the 2 samples.
It's odd because if someone were forging this or faking it you'd think they would try to make the writing and it's idiosyncrasys similar.

The 'I's and the 'Y's are completely different, the 'T's look different too.  Could someone's handwriting change so much over time?  Personally, I don't think so, senility or no. 


Lower down in the letter towards the end its says something like:

"I sold you that Family Album as part of my-----------?"

(Message last edited Sep-30th-03  9:40 PM.)

I noticed those y's right away.  I don't think this is the genuine article.  From having worked on documents for over 20 yrs now, I've noticed people's handwriting as they've become older & infirm, also that of people who have terminal illnesses.  The handwriting may become a lot messier, shakier & sometimes become uneven like the example shown, but the basic shapes remain the same.

I also agree it's fishy Emma would want to sell something like this.  She shunned the notoriety & didn't need the money.  It doesn't add up, IMO.

This just popped into my head, don't know if there would be any more truth to this either, but, what if Annie Conner tried to make some money off of Emma after she started getting senile?  Was the house all that was left to them? 

Great minds think alike, Susan. 

  So, Tina-Kate, do you think that the article of hair and family album are possibly the real thing too, I mean, who knows?  But, that note can't be from Emma.  Now I have to wonder how much was charged for the family album and hair to make it worthwhile to someone like Annie in 1927, I don't the ad said? 

William wrote the seller to ask the color and the reply was "brownish auburn".
Thanks Bill!

I think Rebello and Bill Pavao would be interested!

(Message last edited Oct-1st-03  5:31 PM.)

It would be quite interesting to find out for sure!  Imagine after all these years to find out Lizzie's real hair color if it is the real deal?!  I imagine right off the bat they could check up on the authenticity of the letter by checking it against Emma's known handwriting samples.  Ooo, this is fun.  I'd think that the FRHS might like a crack at the family album if it still exists. 

That's an interesting possibility Susan and Tina-Kate.  We know almost nothing about Annie Connor and her relationshop to Emma other than that Emma was a boarder. It seems like such an odd place to end up in, a different city and state, unless you knew that person fairly well.  Makes me wonder if this was more like a nursing home arrangement.

Emma must have had complete trust in her. She was totally dependent upon her for her shelter, food, etc., and to protect her privacy and identity. That's a lot of trust.

Emma left nothing in her will to her and in fact Annie Connor billed Emma's estate for "board and supplies" upon her death.

There is a small bit in Spiering that "immediately after Emma's death, Annie Conner sold the house and moved back to her old home".  From what I understood, Emma's house was in Annie's name wasn't it?  So, I'm wondering if she got anything from the sale or it went straight to Emma's estate?  Oooo, I could totally see Annie swiping that album and selling it for whatever she could get if she didn't get money from the sale of the house! 

According to Rebello, pg. 313, Mary K. Connor, Annie's sister, bought the house in 1915.  In 1921 when Mary died she left the house and other property to Annie. It get's rather confusing after that.

"According to probate documents, Annie C. Connor claimed, in writing, that she provided $2,000 and her sister furnished $500.00 when the home was purchased. The title to the property was recorded and listed one name, Mary K. Connor. Her sister's name was not on the deed. The Newmarket home was sold by Annie, five months after Emma Borden died, to Charles R. Sibley on November 5, 1928. It has been suggested Emma Borden provided Annie Connor with the money to purchase the home in Newmarket. .... Why Emma would pay board for a home she supposedly helped to buy or renovate remains unknown. If Emma did provide the money to Annie, why would Annie's name be omitted from the deed? Why would Annie provide Probate Court with written notification stating she provided most of the money to purchase the home when the property was already included in her sister's will, and why no one contested the will, remains unknown. How Emma was connected with Mary and Annie Connor in New Hampshire has yet to be discovered."

There is something very strange about that whole arrangement. The answer to the last line in the paragraph would be nice to know.

(Message last edited Oct-2nd-03  12:19 PM.)

Thanks, Harry.  Yes, it does sound like a big tangled mess as to who the house actually belonged to or what arrangements were made.  From what I recall, Emma's will doesn't mention the house.  Do you suppose that somehow they were already friends of Emma or distant cousins?  For Emma to move to a strange town and plunk down money for a house that was never put in her name sounds mysterious.  Why? 

Here's my take:

1) [Date illegible]. ________, Newmarket, N.H. Dear Mr. Shigley, I thoroughly enjoyed your company and will once again assure you that there is _______ [bracketed and raised above line; perhaps, (no need)] for worry regarding the _____ I sold you. That family album was part of my inheritance and the the [sic] estate. ____ [She?] has no legal ____ [not "claim" or "right" but perhaps something with similar meaning?]. Very truly yours, E.L.B.

2) I'm no handwriting expert but I have seen exactly this kind of downward slope before with elderly, ill people; at first glance, such examples look very different from samples produced when they were younger. That said, however, I agree that the handwriting -- especially letter shapes for the "T" and for letters going below the line ("Y", "G" etc.) is perhaps TOO dissimilar.

3)The reason we can't get it any clearer is that it's in bitmap format. The seller COULD have put it in resizable format, but chose not to -- for whatever reason. The seller also COULD have, but did not, provide a transcription. I'd be wary on those grounds alone.

Thank you katydragon and welcome!

That sounds like a pretty good transcription.  My eyes were straining just getting the first 2 or 3 words.

It's just too unlike Emma to be selling an item like this. Also, Lizzie was alive at the time and if word got back to Lizzie who knows what would have happened.

It's definitely a buyer beware item.  Kinda expensive too for just one strand.

Thanks again, katydragon.  Great name BTW.

Thanks, Katydragon, thats very helpful to be able to get an idea of what the note all says.  I was straining my eyes on this one!  Welcome to the forum, always nice to see new members! 

MAYBE the seller didn't want this note to be copied by competitors?
Remember that photo w/ toys sprinkled over it?

Hey, I know where you can get some of Lizzie's hair for free. All you need is a shovel and maybe later, a good lawyer!

Ya know, he's got a point!

Welcome K-D and thank you SO much for that interpretation!
It sounds like it makes sense.
May I ask how you accomplished that?

Hi, everyone, and thanks for the warm welcome! No accomplishment, really, just practice -- when I was doing my thesis research in history, most of the source material was in handwriting of widely varying legibility. Sometimes you've just got to squint a certain way and see what the shapes of the words suggest, then try to make sense of it as a whole... I guarantee, though, that it would be a lot easier if we had the original or a truly resizable copy!

>Hey, I know where you can get some of Lizzie's hair for
>free. All you need is a shovel and maybe later, a good
>lawyer!

LOL! But you don't necessarily have to dig... Maybe a picture of the seller would just show a strange-looking haircut! (P.S., I've got some Lizzie toenail clippings going cheap... 5 cents each, 10 for the BIG ones...)

FIRST talk to a lawyer before you act!!! Assuming it hasn't deteriorated after 75 years.

Oh ma GAWD/dess 
That's funny!

Learning to decipher strange handwriting by reseaching history sounds brilliant!
The closest I ever came was figuring out our brother's mother-in-law's script on her yearly Christmas newsletter.  That was Hard!  And it took me several year's worth of letters..and that was just always the same person.

I asked Michael Martin's how they could figure out the Knowlton Paper's letters and he said you just get used to it, and it becomes a skill.
That sounds like what you did, too.

Does anyone know the penalty for graverobbing? I've been feeling a bit ghoulish lately.

Wait till Halloween Charlie, nobody may notice!

He worked silently and efficiently. The mound of excavated dirt grew as did the hole in the earth. Inch by inch, the shovel cut it's way toward the prize. Before long, the ghoul was hidden within the trench he was digging. The only visible sign of the ghastly effort was the soil rising out of the grave in a steady rhythm. Finally, there was a thud. The job was almost done.

The wooden coffin was rotted, softened by decades of moisture. The shovel made easy work of the tomb.  Then, exposed to the bright moonlight above, were the remains of the killer.

He reached into the damaged casket and pulled the body out by it's long gray hair. The shriveled remains were light enough for him to heave them out of the hole. The dead woman's body flew through the air until striking a headstone. The sound of breaking bone could be heard but no one but the graverobber was there to hear it.

After clawing his way out of the grave, he calmly grabbed the old lady's hair again, and dragged her to his waiting pickup truck. By morning, there were several new listings on Ebay. Keyword, Lizzie Borden.

Happy Halloween!

(Message last edited Oct-10th-03  5:14 PM.)

Oh, you're a man after my own heart, Charlie.

NO!  NOOOOOOOOOO!!!  ARRRGHHHHHH!!!

& here he is in action --



That was brilliant, Charlie!

HappyHalloween!!

I don't know which is scarier, grave robbers or eBay hucksters.  But both in one?!?!  Shudder.

(Message last edited Oct-10th-03  5:34 PM.)

That was great, Charlie!
Happy Halloween to you too!

I've been doing a GOOGLE search for your web-site by using your name, and the closest I've gotten is two threads HeRE in Archive  with Your Name in them!

Would you please give us the link?
Thanks!

Meanwhile some Florida guys, father & son, just dug up accidently, a skeleton between 1,800 and 8,000 years old.  Just on the news.
Then they also just happened to give the penalties for digging up a Grave!  What a coincidence!

In Florida:
3rd degree felony
Up to 5 years in prison  &
Fine

  Great story, Charlie!  Happy early Halloween to you too!  From what I read, unless a corpse mummifies somewhat, the hair falls off the skull in a clump.  And, the hair and nails don't grow after death, the skin around them just shrinks and shrivels back.  Yuck.

Bodysnatching is such a wholesome way to make a living. Great exercise, fresh air and you can be your own boss, and you get to work nights and have the daytime off.

Thanks Kat for the punishment figures from Florida. Just so happens I live in Florida but the guy and his son mentioned are no relations.

http://hometown.aol.com/wtn1975/page1.html

This is the link to my web page. I put it together quite some time ago and really haven't done a thing to it since. You would never find it on the internet because it really isn't there. It's in the AOL Hometown. The only way to find it is to do a search of AOL Hometown but I think only AOL subscribers.

Anyway, I think I'll go dig up some old friends.

Thank You So Much!
I see I took a picture of yours and didn't give credit!
Page 2, the man with the axe, cartoon.
Stef saw my version and Loved it.
We couldn't use it because it was based on yours, and I didn't recall.
I am now *coming clean* since I now know from whence it came...

OOps!

Hey Kat,

You are welcome to use anything from that web site that you wish. It's really just a tiny sampling of the 300+ axe and hatchet murders that I've accumulated and I only threw the site together for fun.

By the way, being familiar with 300 or so cases, one can draw some rather different conclusions when looking at the Borden case. After all, what's the first thing the police do today when they have a strange, unsolved murder on their hands? They look into similar murders.

Thanks, Charlie!
I was under the impression that in your experience with these cases thru the newspapers, you had not yet come across a hatchet murder where the assassin waited over 90 minutes to kill another victim, and did kill the second victim?

YES. The first thing would being sent to a mental hospital (over 21?) before being sent to prison. Maybe probation, but you'd find it hard to live in a small town. "Hey Charlie, can you dig up a date for me? Ha Ha Ha"

Hey Rays,
No problem getting you a date. What age bracket are you looking for? I can probably get you one somewhere in the 125 to 150 year old range. They tend not to be great conversationalist but they can stay out as late as you want.

Or the likely suspects.
Recently released from prison? Grudge against the victim (or vice-versa?).

Would I get much back-talk? A good dancer?